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Warlock
02-07-2007, 08:43 PM
Today marks the release of the next <A HREF="http://www.white-wolf.com/warcraftrpg/">World of WarCraft RPG</a> book, <A HREF="http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=832&osCsid=0f242f0a8eb2481c76292ce1bbdf586c">the Monster Guide</a>. Here are some highlights:
<ul><font size=1><li>Over 200 monsters drawn from Blizzard Entertainment’s World of Warcraft fully usable in the WoW RPG and other d20 campaigns.
<li>A beautiful full-color encyclopedia of monsters appealing to online and tabletop players alike.
<li>Includes detailed entries on many of Azeroth’s key villains, such as Baron Geddon, Illidan Stormrage, Lord Kazzak, and Onyxia.
<li>Includes full rules on monster abilities, on improving monsters, and on using monsters as heroes, villains and player characters.
<li>Page Count: 240 (full-color hardcover)</font></ul>So if you're a fan of the WarCraft RPG or just want to learn more about your favorite WarCraft monsters, definately check it out.

Aldrius
02-07-2007, 08:45 PM
Baron Geddon?

Who the fu...

Warlock
02-07-2007, 08:49 PM
I have to say, I have mixed feelings about the art in this.

On the one hand, it doesn't suck (for a change) :D On the other hand, it's *all* from WoW. That is, they took the WoW models and then drew over them.

It looks really good (especially in color!!), and beats some of the horrible art in the other books (and even the WoW models used in the Core Book, these are all hand-drawn over the original model so they at least *look* like art and not a model). But of course, it's not line art so that's a little disappointing. But then again, half of the line art they have (that is, stuff used in the original Monster Manual, etc) isn't colored, so I will agree this was probably the best option in terms of not having to either a) draw a ton of new art (expensive) and/or b) using non-colored art but tinting the lines from black to pink or some crap like the Core Book did.

I havn't checked much of the content, but what I've seen looks good. There were a few entries that were missing pictures (i.e. Balnazzar) which is odd, but most have really good pictures to go with them so that's nice. Overall, I think they did a good job.

Edit: Also, the book says there is supposed to be Web Extras up, but I don't see any. Must not be uploaded yet.

Flamestrider
02-07-2007, 08:52 PM
The inclusion of Baron Geddon in the list of key villains is rather odd. I wonder, who chooses these things?

xlandhenry
02-07-2007, 09:05 PM
Good news.
Are they going to release a PDF version?

Timolas
02-08-2007, 11:27 AM
Lord Kazzak?

<3 Then the monster guide is complete.

EDIT: Well, almost. I want to see Mephistroth, Anetheron and Azgalor fleshed out... properly.
EDIT2: Add Ras Frostwhisper to that, and er, hopefully CoT will make up for their absence so far. If they're there.

>_>

<_<

Kenzuki
02-08-2007, 01:30 PM
Today marks the release of the next <A HREF="http://www.white-wolf.com/warcraftrpg/">World of WarCraft RPG</a> book, <A HREF="http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=832&osCsid=0f242f0a8eb2481c76292ce1bbdf586c">the Monster Guide</a>. Here are some highlights:
<ul><font size=1><li>Over 200 monsters drawn from Blizzard Entertainment’s World of Warcraft fully usable in the WoW RPG and other d20 campaigns.
<li>A beautiful full-color encyclopedia of monsters appealing to online and tabletop players alike.
<li>Includes detailed entries on many of Azeroth’s key villains, such as Baron Geddon, Illidan Stormrage, Lord Kazzak, and Onyxia.
<li>Includes full rules on monster abilities, on improving monsters, and on using monsters as heroes, villains and player characters.
<li>Page Count: 240 (full-color hardcover)</font></ul>So if you're a fan of the WarCraft RPG or just want to learn more about your favorite WarCraft monsters, definately check it out.

Do me a favor Warlock, tell me how powerful Baron Rivendare is please.

Warlock
02-08-2007, 02:32 PM
I'll check tonight.. and you know, come to think of it, I didn't see Illidan in there. Maybe I missed him (he doesn't have a picture if I did).

It does say Balnazzar *possessed* Dathrohan's body and not that he simply *is* Dathrohan (i.e. during the events of "Of Blood and Honor") so that is nice to finally know for sure.

Rebirth
02-08-2007, 05:46 PM
Is it worth getting?

Warlock
02-09-2007, 07:31 AM
Baron Rivendare is CR 22 FYI.

I read some of the descriptions for the "Villains" section last night. Most were kind of light, but Baron Geddon actually had a cool one. It said that he was once Ragnaros' second-in-command way back since the Old Gods ruled. Then he was defeated in a battle with the Titans, and since at the time they didn't realize how powerful the Titans were (they just figured Geddon sucked), he was demoted to a General (I think, or something low like that). So Majordomo Executus became the second-in-command and Geddon was pretty POed about it because the Flamewakers were considered inferior to beings of actual fire. That's when he came up the plan to steal Thundaraan's power with Garr and Ragnaros, which you probably all know about already. Then it just says he's biding his time to take over again. So that was cool.

Thermaplugg also has a cool writeup about how he got passed over for High Tinker, got POed, and suggested both not bothering the other races with Gnome problems, and the radiation bomb (which "it's unclear how he got locked inside when it went off" - lol)

Some of the others are really, really basic though. Garr is like a passing reference to the Thundaraan thing and a couple descriptory sentences and that's it. Baron Rivendare just says he was a nobel land-owner who was friends with Kel'Thuzad. etc

And Illidan is *not* in the book. White Wolf store lied :P

Kenzuki
02-09-2007, 10:22 AM
Does Rivendare have any classes?

Warlock
02-09-2007, 10:51 AM
Does Rivendare have any classes?

I didn't check. I do know he has the Death Knight prestigue class which they say "is described in Dark Factions" but because that book isn't out they list those abilities in his entry too.

It looked like he had basically the same stuff as in the MMORPG, except that he could possess people which I found odd.

Oh, incidentally there's actually a table for Nefarian of class calls. Unfortunately it seems less interesting than the MMORPG. For example, Rogues are like "You backstab an ally" instead of the rooted thing in the MMO. Most are just "you attack an ally" type deals. Warlocks only get one infernal summon, not many. Plus there were a couple for the other classes like Scouts (attack ally), Necromancers (cast Death & Decay on allies), etc but those were also boring.

Kenzuki
02-09-2007, 11:04 AM
Can you give me a list of the villians and their CR's please. My copy hasn't come yet and I'm curious as to how they stack up against the other famous people from the previous books.

Warlock
02-09-2007, 11:07 AM
I'll post something tonight. I know Baron Geddon was 24, and Kel'Thuzad was the highest (40 something?)

Kenzuki
02-09-2007, 11:12 AM
I'll post something tonight. I know Baron Geddon was 24, and Kel'Thuzad was the highest (40 something?)

holy crap! He used to be 27 or 28 lol!

Yuber8900
02-09-2007, 11:48 AM
Irony in a way I suppose.

Warlock
02-09-2007, 12:11 PM
holy crap! He used to be 27 or 28 lol!

Maybe I'm wrong. I honestly don't remember. It may have been in the 30s.

Vicious
02-09-2007, 04:22 PM
Maybe I'm wrong. I honestly don't remember. It may have been in the 30s.

Still, that´s a pretty good upgrade for Kel´thuzad.

Flamestrider
02-09-2007, 05:19 PM
CRs suck.

Kenzuki
02-09-2007, 07:48 PM
CRs suck.

Only to those with simple minds.

Yuber8900
02-09-2007, 07:56 PM
Only to those with simple minds.

Because Illidan can so pwn Deathwing.

Kenzuki
02-09-2007, 08:13 PM
Because Illidan can so pwn Deathwing.

Check their stats and tell me that.

Yuber8900
02-09-2007, 08:15 PM
Check their stats and tell me that.

You're the one who just swore by the CR.

Kenzuki
02-09-2007, 08:20 PM
You're the one who just swore by the CR.

I said only to those with simple minds. On some of the npcs the CR's are fine, on some of the eternals like the Aspects, they are screwed up. They should have been in the 40's at least.

Flamestrider
02-09-2007, 09:58 PM
You can't reduce all the strengths, weaknesses, emotions, and abilities of a character to a single number.

Therefore, CRs, which attempt to do just that, suck.

Kenzuki
02-10-2007, 07:14 AM
You can't reduce all the strengths, weaknesses, emotions, and abilities of a character to a single number.

Therefore, CRs, which attempt to do just that, suck.

Challenge ratings are used to determine the strenghts of an encounter against a group of four or five players at that level who use all of their resources. As such, a CR 40 encounter means it would take four or five level 40 DnD characters using most or everything they have to kill this creature. Considering the average person never get's higher than 12 it's quite a deal. In most cases it's just an estimate anyway, especially the higher you get.

icy
02-10-2007, 08:47 AM
Challenge ratings are used to determine the strenghts of an encounter against a group of four or five players at that level who use all of their resources. As such, a CR 40 encounter means it would take four or five level 40 DnD characters using most or everything they have to kill this creature. Considering the average person never get's higher than 12 it's quite a deal. In most cases it's just an estimate anyway, especially the higher you get.

Have you ever played any Dnd game (like neverwinter nights), you can easily solo creatures 5 or 6 CR above your level

Kenzuki
02-10-2007, 09:48 AM
Have you ever played any Dnd game (like neverwinter nights), you can easily solo creatures 5 or 6 CR above your level

That all depends on your class, gear, and the creature you're facing. I highly doubt that a single level 20 character could defeat say the Tarrasque (CR 20) by himself.

Tularis
02-10-2007, 10:06 AM
I wouldn't say CR's suck; they aren't full proof thats for sure and there is always mitigating circumstances that are around, but they are usually a decent indication. If something is CR 12 and another thing is CR 56, you can make the reasonable assumption that the CR 12 monster would get its ass handed to him. While I don't agree with all the ratings given to the characters in the roleplaying books, I find it interesting, especially when compared against one another.

Flamestrider
02-10-2007, 03:25 PM
Challenge ratings are used to determine the strenghts of an encounter against a group of four or five players at that level who use all of their resources. As such, a CR 40 encounter means it would take four or five level 40 DnD characters using most or everything they have to kill this creature. Considering the average person never get's higher than 12 it's quite a deal. In most cases it's just an estimate anyway, especially the higher you get.

I played D&D. I know what they do. But in battle, a lot depends on motivation, emotion, and sheer blind luck. Because of all of these factors, CRs for individual characters are never particularly accurate, and thus, never particularly useful.

Kenzuki
02-10-2007, 06:03 PM
I played D&D. I know what they do. But in battle, a lot depends on motivation, emotion, and sheer blind luck. Because of all of these factors, CRs for individual characters are never particularly accurate, and thus, never particularly useful.

What do you suggest then?

Darkwind
02-10-2007, 06:21 PM
Today marks the release of the next <A HREF="http://www.white-wolf.com/warcraftrpg/">World of WarCraft RPG</a> book, <A HREF="http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=832&osCsid=0f242f0a8eb2481c76292ce1bbdf586c">the Monster Guide</a>. Here are some highlights:
<ul><font size=1><li>Over 200 monsters drawn from Blizzard Entertainment’s World of Warcraft fully usable in the WoW RPG and other d20 campaigns.
<li>A beautiful full-color encyclopedia of monsters appealing to online and tabletop players alike.
<li>Includes detailed entries on many of Azeroth’s key villains, such as Baron Geddon, Illidan Stormrage, Lord Kazzak, and Onyxia.
<li>Includes full rules on monster abilities, on improving monsters, and on using monsters as heroes, villains and player characters.
<li>Page Count: 240 (full-color hardcover)</font></ul>So if you're a fan of the WarCraft RPG or just want to learn more about your favorite WarCraft monsters, definately check it out.

Sounds semi-interesting. Since I only get the RPG books for the lore (Despite that I DM a D&D game regularly), I might wait on this one like I've waited on picking up More Magic and Mayhem. Maybe I'll get 'em both in a few months.

By the way, anyone know when Dark Factions comes out? I'm really keen on getting that one. . .

Flamestrider
02-11-2007, 10:34 AM
What do you suggest then?

Not ranking individual characters by any system.

I don't really mind CRs for generic creatures. Just not for characters.

Kenzuki
02-11-2007, 12:28 PM
Not ranking individual characters by any system.

I don't really mind CRs for generic creatures. Just not for characters.

What happens when adventuring in the Eastern Plaguelands your party runs into Baron Rivendare or Balnazzar "Ooops guys, we can't continue because the main villian of our campaign isn't listed in the book to fight."

Flamestrider
02-11-2007, 01:22 PM
I didn't say they shouldn't include stats for them. Just not CRs. I've played D&D, and CRs are not exactly essential. They just give you a frame of reference. Since all of these guys are supposed to be much more powerful than your characters anyway, the exact "suggested party level" isn't really necessary.

Kenzuki
02-11-2007, 01:44 PM
I didn't say they shouldn't include stats for them. Just not CRs. I've played D&D, and CRs are not exactly essential. They just give you a frame of reference. Since all of these guys are supposed to be much more powerful than your characters anyway, the exact "suggested party level" isn't really necessary.

Then ignor it then.

Yuber8900
02-11-2007, 02:18 PM
Then ignore it then.

When you bring it up at nearly every damn chance it's kinda hard.

Kenzuki
02-11-2007, 04:58 PM
I've stopped doing that. Ever since the WoWRPG handbook said that Thrall personally killed Grom Hellscream I've learned to take what they say with a grain of salt. I like the information in there for things we don't have, like information on the Pantheon and Elemental Lords for example.

Kenzuki
02-11-2007, 05:58 PM
For those curious

Archaedas: 13
Balnazzar: 21
Geddon: 25
Rivendare: 22
Drakkisath: 20
Garr: 25
Kel'Thuzad: 38
Onyxia: 25
Kazzak: 23
Thermaplugg: 12
Nefarian: 31

Vicious
02-11-2007, 06:21 PM
Nice numbers for Balnazzar, Rivendare and Nefarion.

Kenzuki
02-11-2007, 06:34 PM
Nice numbers for Balnazzar, Rivendare and Nefarion.

If we go by the progression that they seem to be going. I'm guessing that C'Thun would be somewhere inbetween Nefarian and Kel'Thuzad in power. So something like a CR 35 or so i'm guessing.

Flamestrider
02-11-2007, 06:45 PM
Then ignor it then.

I do ignore them. But when they are the subject of conversation, I see no reason why I shouldn't voice my opinions.

Vicious
02-11-2007, 06:57 PM
If we go by the progression that they seem to be going. I'm guessing that C'Thun would be somewhere inbetween Nefarian and Kel'Thuzad in power. So something like a CR 35 or so i'm guessing.

Man, still Kel´thuzad did got a nice boost on power, anyone know his levels and classes?

I guess they had too since Blizzard had to create all of these raid bosseswhich had to have *some* power and they raised Kel´s acordingly, after all he is known as the second strongest Undead in Azeroth.

Kenzuki
02-11-2007, 07:34 PM
Illidan will likely get a boost as well. God knows what they will do to the Lich King, which should be an Eternal by all rights. It would have been nice of them if they did a weaker version of Ragnaros as he is in MC.

Yuber8900
02-11-2007, 08:14 PM
Hey since I can solo Balnazzar now that means I'm almost a match for Ony on my own!

Aldrius
02-11-2007, 08:38 PM
Hmm... jeez. Kel'thuzad is more powerful than a dragon? o_O;;

That's... odd.

Kenzuki
02-11-2007, 09:26 PM
Hmm... jeez. Kel'thuzad is more powerful than a dragon? o_O;;

That's... odd.

Considering Sapphiron serves HIM, I don't think it's odd. He's stronger in WoW too.

Yuber8900
02-11-2007, 09:30 PM
Considering Sapphiron serves HIM, I don't think it's odd. He's stronger in WoW too.

Well it's not like Sapp has a choice....

Aldrius
02-12-2007, 05:50 AM
Considering Sapphiron serves HIM, I don't think it's odd. He's stronger in WoW too.

That's mind manipulation...

Kerrah
02-12-2007, 07:24 AM
That's mind manipulation...
Actually I think its called Necromancy.

Kenzuki
02-12-2007, 08:31 AM
Nef and Onyxia aren't that special anyway.

Cantus
02-12-2007, 10:13 AM
I never understood how Rivendare could match up to a Dreadlord like Balnazzar, but I guess they're pretty much on equal footing. And why have they still not added Anub'arak, Kael'thas, and Vashj?

Kenzuki
02-12-2007, 10:45 AM
I never understood how Rivendare could match up to a Dreadlord like Balnazzar, but I guess they're pretty much on equal footing. And why have they still not added Anub'arak, Kael'thas, and Vashj?

Because, they are obviously going to have a Burning Crusade book which I bet, will have Illidan, Vashj, and Kael in it.

Wulfang
02-12-2007, 10:57 AM
I never understood how Rivendare could match up to a Dreadlord like Balnazzar, but I guess they're pretty much on equal footing. And why have they still not added Anub'arak, Kael'thas, and Vashj?
Anub'arak hasn't been added yet, but Kael and Vashj were both in the last MoM. However, seeing as Kel'thuzad's CR was raised by 13 levels, I bet that Vashj, Kael and Illidan will all be much more powerful when they appear again in a RPG book.

Aldrius
02-12-2007, 01:16 PM
Mind Manipulation is part of necromancy. :p

Atleast the Lich King's brand.

Kenzuki
02-12-2007, 08:18 PM
Even though Nefarian and Onyxia are dragons look at what Kel'Thuzad is. He was a powerful human Archmage of the Kirin Tor, he became the most powerful lich via being created with the Sunwell of all things, and his chains came from Ner'zhul himself. I'de say with all that he's more than a match for some upstart wyrm.

Just for fun, I'de say the WoW Ragnaros would have a CR inbetween Onyxia (25) and Nefarian(31). His full power CR is 40 according to S&L.

Ersinus
02-13-2007, 04:43 AM
Is it mentioned somewhere in-game that Ragnaros is not at his full power?

Wulfang
02-13-2007, 05:50 AM
Is it mentioned somewhere in-game that Ragnaros is not at his full power?
Yeah, it's said that he is severely weakened due to being away from the Elemental plane for so long. If he was at full power he'd surely have taken Blackrock Spire for himself a long time ago instead of still being fighting Nefarian's forces like he is nowadays.

Kenzuki
02-13-2007, 06:21 AM
Ragnaros: TOO SOON EXECUTIS. TOO SOON!

Creative
02-13-2007, 07:27 AM
Hmm, I wan't to know Kael'Thas, Vashj, Illidan CR.

When will the Burning Crusade RPG Book be released? :(

Vicious
02-13-2007, 07:49 AM
Just for fun, I'de say the WoW Ragnaros would have a CR inbetween Onyxia (25) and Nefarian(31). His full power CR is 40 according to S&L.

You´re talking about the CR of his weakened form right?

Creative
02-13-2007, 08:30 AM
Isn't the true Ragnaros a match for an aspect? Why has he only 40 CR?

Wulfang
02-13-2007, 10:49 AM
Isn't the true Ragnaros a match for an aspect? Why has he only 40 CR?
Because all Aspects had CRs around 32/35. That's why I find it very weird that Nef and Ony have almost the same CR as their daddy.

Creative
02-13-2007, 11:18 AM
Because all Aspects had CRs around 32/35. That's why I find it very weird that Nef and Ony have almost the same CR as their daddy.

... That also means Kel'Thuzad is stronger than an Aspect?


Edit: Or maybe one should wait until an updated version with them covered comes, so we can see their new stats.

Tularis
02-13-2007, 12:21 PM
Maybe they haven't done Anub`araks stats because they haven't worked out how powerful to make him? After all, almost no information is known about him and he hasn't really fought anything amazing for him to be compared against, yet at the same time he is obviously competent as LK trusted him to escort a weakening Arthas. So eh :P

Kenzuki
02-13-2007, 01:20 PM
The Dragon Aspect's CRs are kinda messed up as they do not match their stats. For example, Deathwing could rip apart the Elemental Lords in a one on one fight, the only one that would probably defeat him soundly would be Neptulon. Ragnaros for example is kinda weak vs him, because Deathwing is immune to fire completely. When figuring the CR's of the Aspects, treat them as ten CR's higher than what they are in S&L and you have a better picture.

Doomsday
02-13-2007, 07:40 PM
The Dragon Aspect's CRs are kinda messed up as they do not match their stats. For example, Deathwing could rip apart the Elemental Lords in a one on one fight, the only one that would probably defeat him soundly would be Neptulon. Ragnaros for example is kinda weak vs him, because Deathwing is immune to fire completely. When figuring the CR's of the Aspects, treat them as ten CR's higher than what they are in S&L and you have a better picture.

I don't know. I am inclined to think that if deathwing went to the elemental plane and fought any of the lt.s there, they would prolly rip through him. The elemental lords are weaker on Azeroth because they have to be summoned at less than full power. I am cure they are much more of a match at full power.

Kenzuki
02-13-2007, 08:07 PM
The Stats of the Elemental Lords in S&L are of them at full power.

Creative
02-14-2007, 07:52 AM
Maybe they haven't done Anub`araks stats because they haven't worked out how powerful to make him? After all, almost no information is known about him and he hasn't really fought anything amazing for him to be compared against, yet at the same time he is obviously competent as LK trusted him to escort a weakening Arthas. So eh :P

I would guess Anub'arak would have around 36-37 CR. A lÃ:raptor:ttle weaker than Kellie, but he was still so strong that the Lich King made him the guardian of Northrend, more or less.