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Warlock
05-07-2007, 03:51 PM
<A HREF="http://www.sff.net/people/knaak/">Richard A. Knaak</a> (who you may remember as the writer of "Day of the Dragon" among many, many other Blizzard and WarCraft novels) has updated his <A HREF="http://www.sff.net/people/knaak/Novels.html">Bibliography</a> with two new novels on the way. "War of the Ancients Archive" is obviously just a simple collection of the three War of the Ancients novels ("The Well of Eternity", "The Demon Soul", and "The Sundering"). This will be out December 2007.

"Night of the Dragon" however is a new direct-sequel to "Day of the Dragon" (which he has been hinting about for awhile but now we have a title). This will be out November 2008.

Thanks to <A HREF="http://www.blizzplanet.com">BlizzPlanet</a> for the heads up on this.

Warlock
05-07-2007, 04:01 PM
Figures they would go cliché with the title :P

Cantus
05-07-2007, 06:29 PM
Could've been worse I suppose, something like Twilight of the Black Flight.

Kenzuki
05-07-2007, 06:31 PM
Knaak has an unhealthy obession with the dragons of Warcraft. Then again, he's sort of their father or something.

Flamestrider
05-07-2007, 06:57 PM
Aw, fuck.

Also, apparently, he's doing a Burning Crusade manga of some sort with the characters from the Sunwell Trilogy.

Aldrius
05-07-2007, 07:34 PM
Aw, fuck.

My sentiments exactly.

Kenzuki
05-07-2007, 07:35 PM
You guys haven't even seen it. I liked Day of the Dragon, so just wait til it comes out.

Aldrius
05-07-2007, 07:39 PM
Once bitten, twice shy.

Kenzuki
05-07-2007, 07:49 PM
What is wrong with Day of the Dragon? Besides the fact that it makes more sense prior to Beyond the Dark Portal than after it.

Warlock
05-07-2007, 07:53 PM
I don't know. I liked Day of the Dragon too. And I do like his characters (Rhonin, Krasus, etc). But I am so damn sick of dragons.

Aldrius
05-07-2007, 07:56 PM
Nothing's wrong with Day of the Dragon. Haven't read it.

I hated the Well of Eternity, though. I couldn't stand Krasus or Rhonin. At all. So forgive me if I'm not all that excited about a book that will likely feature them heavily.

Kenzuki
05-07-2007, 07:56 PM
I don't know. I liked Day of the Dragon too. And I do like his characters (Rhonin, Krasus, etc). But I am so damn sick of dragons.

Agreed, sick of dragons. I'de KILL for a book about a young Uther Lightbringer and how he became the first paladin. It could offer more insight on the Light and the Church.

Kenzuki
05-07-2007, 08:00 PM
Nothing's wrong with Day of the Dragon. Haven't read it.

I hated the Well of Eternity, though. I couldn't stand Krasus or Rhonin. At all. So forgive me if I'm not all that excited about a book that will likely feature them heavily.

Then read it.

Aldrius
05-07-2007, 08:04 PM
Why the fuck would I want to read it?

Kenzuki
05-07-2007, 08:16 PM
Why the fuck would I want to read it?

To learn something.

Aldrius
05-07-2007, 09:09 PM
O...kay...

Are you implying that reading Day of the Dragon will CHANGE my mind about Krasus and Rhonin? 'cause it probably won't.

Warlock
05-07-2007, 09:14 PM
Day of the Dragon is *way* better than the WotA trilogy. I don't know what went wrong with that. I mean, it was *ok*, and I do think Well of Eternity was good, but it seemed to get progressively worse each book to the point where it was like "Oh shit, I need to finish this in 100 pages!" and then he crams a buttload of significant events all in at once.

Aldrius
05-07-2007, 09:41 PM
I just don't like the kind of characters he creates, and I don't think he writes the ones that Blizzard created particularly accurately. =\

And I read/watch/play things almost entirely for character. ^^()

xlandhenry
05-08-2007, 12:01 AM
I like Day of the Dragon. And I like those characters created by Knaak. However putting Krasus into every single book is just kinda lack of originality.:(

Nephalim
05-08-2007, 12:13 AM
Here's the thing about Knaak: He is absolutely fine when he makes up his own characters and does his own stuff with them.

He's like a surgeon with palsy AND Tourette's when he tries to use anyone else's characters or story, and he keeps demonstrating this over and over and over. He wrote Drognan terribly in Legacy of Blood, he wrote EVERYONE badly in War of the Ancients, and he wrote Sylvanas badly in the Sunwell Trilogy. He has yet to accurately portray an event we've already seen. His accounts of other people's stories are NEVER the same.

It's a handicap, and while it's fine to possess a handicap, and perhaps admirable to attempt to work around it, I don't think he sees that he has one. War of the Ancients was so terrible because it involved someone else's characters in someone else's story, so there was a lot for him to get wrong.

Flamestrider
05-08-2007, 01:01 AM
Day of the Dragon was fine. However, there's no concievable reason, unless Knaack invents one specifically for this purpose, that would justify a direct sequel. There's no event involving dragons in the Warcraft lore that takes place post-day of the Dragon that merits a novelization to further explain it. Which means Knaack will be making up an entirely new story for the sole purpose of being able to include Rhonin and Krasus. That's what I don't like.

Medievaldragon
05-08-2007, 02:19 AM
Knaak was invited to work on Day of the Dragon by Metzen. In previous interviews I have held with him, he said Metzen was a avid fan of his novel Legend of Huma. And Dragonlance / Dragonrealm.

Warcraft is not 100% Lord of the Rings. It is a amalgalm of many mythos ranging from D&D, Dragonlance, Cthulthu, Greek, Celthic and Norse Mythology and much more.

In the case of Day of the Dragon, Metzen wanted to develop more lore on Alexstrasza and the events of the Second War with the Dragonmaw Clan. Knaak simply fleshed it out, and Metzen liked it.

Day of the Dragon introduces how the orcs were able to dominate and control a Dragon Aspect to use red dragons as a weapon against the Alliance in Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness (RTS).

Day of the Dragon also introduces Deathwing flying off with the red eggs, which later on becomes a strong theme in World of Warcraft with Nefarian creating the chromatic dragonflight.

In War of the Ancients Trilogy, we see some of what happened in WOTA and regardless of whether people liked Krasus and Rhonin in the equation, the essence is that now we know how the Old gods were involved in Deathwing's madness, how the Demon Soul was created, and most importantly -- we know how the Old gods were behind the Highborne becoming into Naga.

In Warcraft Manga: The Sunwell -- we see Krasus again disguised as Borel. The manga introduces Kalecgos, Tyri, Jorad Mace and Anveena.

For those who haven't read the third book of the Manga, Anveena is not Human. She is the Sunwell. Krasus used his powers over life -- remember Alexstrasza is the Dragon Aspect of Life -- to create a illusion to hide the essence of the Sunwell in hopes to strip it away from Dar'Khan and Arthas the Lich King. The Sunwell however had a mind of its own and embraced the illusion to the point it became alive.

What repercusions this will have in the Warcraft storyline, and the MMO, I have no idea.

I am not gonna force people to like Rhonin and Krasus. I only know Metzen hired Knaak from day one due to his expertise in Dragonlance and Dragonrealm to flesh out the dragons of Warcraft.

And what matters is that what Knaak writes becomes canon in the RTS and the MMO. Kalec and Anveena are now at the Sunwell Plateau -- not yet in-game. The Sunwell Plateau is an isle above Sunstrider Isle -- the starting zone of Blood Elves.

Tyri and Jorad Mace are in the Celestial Ridge, Netherstorm. In Outland. And they both have a major role behind the Netherwing flight. What might be important later on about the Netherwing flight is that if Deathwing dies ... Malygos might choose one of the Netherwing flight to become the new Earthwarder. Don't hold your breath on that, but that is a possibility.

If you don't like Rhonin and Krasus, that's fine. Just focus on the story essence behind them. That is what becomes canon in the MMO.

Without the tidbits shown in WOTA trilogy, we wouldn't have had a stronger idea of the Old gods' evilness and manipulations. Wow Classic MMO's story is all revolving around the Old gods.

From level 12-20 in Darkshore we fight the Twilight's Hammer at the Master's Glaive. Blackfathom Deeps, Silithus, Blackrock Depths, C'Thun.

Personally, I look forward to NIGHT OF THE DRAGON. Knaak has thrown a few hints in previous interviews. I think we will get to know more about Deathwing's whereabouts the past 20 years.

As for the Burning Crusade Manga, I hope we get to see the current plot with the Netherwing flight and some of the pact between the black dragonflight, the dragonmaw and Illidan.

There's no event involving dragons in the Warcraft lore that takes place post-day of the Dragon that merits a novelization to further explain it.

1. Arthas slays Searinox (Black Dragon)
2. Malfurion finds black whelps at Barrow Deeps, within Mount Hyjal, when attempting to awake the Druids of the Claw.
3. Arthas defeats Sapphiron and rises him as a Frost Wyrm (Present: Naxxramas)
4. Krasus sends Garek to recruit heroes to free and kill Blacklash and Hematus at the Lethlor Ravine, Badlands.
5. Onyxia poses as Lady Katrana Prestor -- Deathwing used this name in DAY OF THE DRAGON -- and manipulates Stormwind from within as advisor to the child king.
6. Nefarian builds the chromatic dragonflight at Blackrock Mountain.
7. Four Emerald Dream dragons are corrupted by the Nightmare.
8. Chromie (Bronze Dragon) and Matron Protectorate Haleh (Blue dragon) sent us to Nefarian's lair to fight the chromatic dragonflight.
9. Vaelastrasz in LBRD helps us with info on how to get into UBRD, and helps us defeat the Warchief of the Blackrock Clan.
10. Nefarian corrupts Vaelastrasz and forces him to fight us in Blackwing Lair.
11. You kill Zuluhed in Shadowmoon Valley, at the Dragonmaw Fortress
12. While doing the Netherwing flying Mount quests you see a black dragon talking to a Dragonmaw orc. They make a pact.

http://blizzplanet.com/content/burning-crusade/outland/shadowmoon-valley/deathwing-lives.gif

Cantus
05-08-2007, 02:41 AM
I'm going to have to echo everyone else's sentiments when I say, Enough Dragons!

I can understand they play an incredibly important role in Warcraft mythos, but we honestly need more diverse content right now. If we simply keep expanding on Dragons and the Old Gods, we lose an enormous chunk of the old appeal of Warcraft. No longer is it about mortals clashing against each other in a fight for dominance, where the only thing certain is that everything is a shade of grey. No longer are we given a choice in who we fight and how we fight them.

Right now, it's become a simple clash of titanic forces, which we've been swept up in and must now make do with what we're given. I'll gladly help out the Flights, Sha'tar, Cenarion Circle, whomever, so long as I'm not just another piece of cannon fodder for some immeasurably vast force to control like the most minute of pawns. If we continue down the road that Knaak has given us, we're faced with only the conclusion that everything relates solely to the Dragonflights battles. That our efforts are merely the calculated moves of some unknown and unseen force, and that our decisions are merely the most infintessimally small part of a creature obsessed writer and his radically mainstream imagination.

Rhonin and Krasus need to step down, just as Uther and Gul'dan have. They need to become the legends of the past that Medivh had rightfully believed needed to fade away into only memory. Otherwise they become so mainstream, so generic, Warcraft will have lost its luster and become a corroded, leaking, hulk of a once proud vessel. And trust me, for all my enthusiasm, I'm fully willing to jump ship once I see Warcraft begin to fail without the slightest hint of repairs.

Medievaldragon
05-08-2007, 02:58 AM
Cantus, Blizzard is already doing what you ask.

Keith R.A. DeCandido wrote Wow: Cycle of Hatred -- which touched some of the Kirin Tor lore, Aegwynn, the Burning Blade clan, and the fragile pact between Orgrimmar and Theramore.

Christie Golden wrote Wow: Rise of the Horde -- telling the story of the Eredar and Draenei in Argus. The Shamanistic orcs embracing the corruption through drinking Mannoroth's blood. We see Grom actually drinking it in the book. We get to see MMO plots such as the Atam'al Crystals, K'ure and Oshu'gun, and more.

Aaron Rosenberg wrote Wow: Tides of Darkness due August 2007. It features Lothar, Khadgar, Turalyon, Alleria, Orgrimm Doomhammer, Gul'dan and others.

Aaron Rosenberg will write a new Warcraft novel due 2008 -- He didn't want to talk about it, but I already know what it is through another source. You will like it. =)

More novels are coming.

Coljun
05-08-2007, 04:17 AM
Meh, we'll have to see.

My guess is that it'll be about what Deathwing has been doing all this time.

Medievaldragon: that list you put down, that's not directly after Day of the Dragon. As far as I can tell this new novel will pick up where Day of the dragon left off.

Medievaldragon
05-08-2007, 04:27 AM
He said there is no event involving dragons in the "Warcraft lore" post-day of the Dragon. Just pointed out dragons are not unique to DAY OF THE DRAGON, and that there were dragons events after the novel in Warcraft 3 and Wow Classic.

Kerrah
05-08-2007, 06:47 AM
Figures they would go cliché with the title :P

"Day of the Dragon."
"Night of the Dragon."
"Dawn of the Dragon."
"The Land of Dragons."
"The Diary of Dragons."

Then Knaak will change his name to Knomero.

xlandhenry
05-08-2007, 08:06 AM
He said there is no event involving dragons in the "Warcraft lore" post-day of the Dragon. Just pointed out dragons are not unique to DAY OF THE DRAGON, and that there were dragons events after the novel in Warcraft 3 and Wow Classic.

I think what Flamestrider wanted to say is that no event involving dragons after DotD worth a novelization. And I agree with him.

After DotD, since the dragons are busy with their own bussiness(Red: recovering from the 2nd war, Green:obsessed by the Nightmare, Bronze:Timeline paradox, WotA portrayed this,etc..), they didn't have too much influence on the world, they even didn't take part in the battle of Mount Hyjal. There's just nothing notable to be put into a book. It's just my opinion though :) it'd be better if we know more about his plot:P

Edit: I'm not saying that the new novel is completely sxxt;) If the novel doesn't contradict too much known lore, and the story is good, that's fine. People are just sick with retcons that do no improvement.

Warlock
05-08-2007, 08:25 AM
Cantus, Blizzard is already doing what you ask.

Keith R.A. DeCandido wrote Wow: Cycle of Hatred -- which touched some of the Kirin Tor lore, Aegwynn, the Burning Blade clan, and the fragile pact between Orgrimmar and Theramore.

Christie Golden wrote Wow: Rise of the Horde -- telling the story of the Eredar and Draenei in Argus. The Shamanistic orcs embracing the corruption through drinking Mannoroth's blood. We see Grom actually drinking it in the book. We get to see MMO plots such as the Atam'al Crystals, K'ure and Oshu'gun, and more.

Aaron Rosenberg wrote Wow: Tides of Darkness due August 2007. It features Lothar, Khadgar, Turalyon, Alleria, Orgrimm Doomhammer, Gul'dan and others.

Aaron Rosenberg will write a new Warcraft novel due 2008 -- He didn't want to talk about it, but I already know what it is through another source. You will like it. =)

More novels are coming.

And those are exactly the kind of novels I like reading. I liked Cycle of Hatred because it was about something different. It was a more "human" story. And I am really stoked for Tides of Darkness.

I mean, like I said, I liked Day of the Dragon. But I just wish Knaak didn't have to put dragons in *every* book he writes. And honestly, I'm not really looking forward to the BC Manga because the first one was pretty terrible. I honestly think the fact that Korialstrasz was in it at all kind of ruined it. It's like Knaak can't write something without throwing the same characters in it every time.

As for where Night of the Dragon comes in, I suspect it will be present-day, or at least following the WotA trilogy (present day parts) in the timeline.

Kerrah
05-08-2007, 08:27 AM
If Krasus and Rhonin find and kill Deathwing, I'll cry.

Vicious
05-08-2007, 08:38 AM
Dragons novels are dragon dragons.

I also like Day of the Dragon alot, hell, it´s my favorite Warcraft book but like most people said, he really should write about something else, even the WotA had a book where the Aspects and their flights were the main theme.


This book will probably cover Deathwing latest situation and plan.

Nephalim
05-08-2007, 12:04 PM
And what matters is that what Knaak writes becomes canon in the RTS and the MMO.No one's denying that. However, that doesn't mean it's good, that doesn't mean it should, it doesn't mean that we need to like it, and that doesn't mean we're off-base to complain about it.

Vicious
05-08-2007, 12:57 PM
I think what Flamestrider wanted to say is that no event involving dragons after DotD worth a novelization. And I agree with him.

We don´t know which Dragons will be involved and how will they be, and frankly i don´t think every dragon and their moms will be appearing like beans in the first one so i di think it´s worth at least another novel, since Deathwing was defeated in DotD we have no idea what´s hes been up to, it´s been years.

That´s probably the main reason for this sequel.

Aldrius
05-08-2007, 02:35 PM
how the Old gods were behind the Highborne becoming into Naga.

Yay for the most pointless explanation ever.

They were created when they drowned in the well of eternity. What more explanation does one need? =P


In Warcraft Manga: The Sunwell -- we see Krasus again disguised as Borel. The manga introduces Kalecgos, Tyri, Jorad Mace and Anveena.


Yay! A character I already didn't like, and more unlikable characters. (Well, I know Anveena is anyway...)


For those who haven't read the third book of the Manga, Anveena is not Human. She is the Sunwell. Krasus used his powers over life -- remember Alexstrasza is the Dragon Aspect of Life -- to create a illusion to hide the essence of the Sunwell in hopes to strip it away from Dar'Khan and Arthas the Lich King. The Sunwell however had a mind of its own and embraced the illusion to the point it became alive.


Erg... I don't like Krasus to begin with and besides that, he has nothing to do with the Blood Elves, the Scourge, Ner'zhul or Arthas other than the fact that Ner'zhul raised a bunch of blue dragons from the dead as his servants.

Which just makes this annoying.

I am not gonna force people to like Rhonin and Krasus. I only know Metzen hired Knaak from day one due to his expertise in Dragonlance and Dragonrealm to flesh out the dragons of Warcraft.


Which I find ironic because I like the dragons best when they play the roles of Greek gods. Not interfering in human affairs, just acting like forces of nature or monsters in the hills. Not as super-heroes who show up when people are in danger. Metzen tends to write them as the former (except for the black flight), Knaak seems to write them as the latter from what I've seen.

If you don't like Rhonin and Krasus, that's fine. Just focus on the story essence behind them. That is what becomes canon in the MMO.


What story essence? The fact that they're both extremely typical fantasy archetypes?


Without the tidbits shown in WOTA trilogy, we wouldn't have had a stronger idea of the Old gods' evilness and manipulations. Wow Classic MMO's story is all revolving around the Old gods.


There are other stories, and other points in which to do this at... perhaps... oh, I don't know. In the MMO where they are actually featured?

EDIT: Sorry if I'm coming across as rude. My sarcasm isn't aimed at you, Medieval. =)

Kenzuki
05-08-2007, 02:36 PM
I'm going to have to echo everyone else's sentiments when I say, Enough Dragons!

I can understand they play an incredibly important role in Warcraft mythos, but we honestly need more diverse content right now. If we simply keep expanding on Dragons and the Old Gods, we lose an enormous chunk of the old appeal of Warcraft. No longer is it about mortals clashing against each other in a fight for dominance, where the only thing certain is that everything is a shade of grey. No longer are we given a choice in who we fight and how we fight them.

Right now, it's become a simple clash of titanic forces, which we've been swept up in and must now make do with what we're given. I'll gladly help out the Flights, Sha'tar, Cenarion Circle, whomever, so long as I'm not just another piece of cannon fodder for some immeasurably vast force to control like the most minute of pawns. If we continue down the road that Knaak has given us, we're faced with only the conclusion that everything relates solely to the Dragonflights battles. That our efforts are merely the calculated moves of some unknown and unseen force, and that our decisions are merely the most infintessimally small part of a creature obsessed writer and his radically mainstream imagination.

Rhonin and Krasus need to step down, just as Uther and Gul'dan have. They need to become the legends of the past that Medivh had rightfully believed needed to fade away into only memory. Otherwise they become so mainstream, so generic, Warcraft will have lost its luster and become a corroded, leaking, hulk of a once proud vessel. And trust me, for all my enthusiasm, I'm fully willing to jump ship once I see Warcraft begin to fail without the slightest hint of repairs.


Um Cantus, not to be a bitch or anything but one thing I need to say. Uther and Gul'dan didn't step down....they were killed. Oh and even in Warcraft I and II it wasn't all grey, but it WAS a war between mortal armies and I do agree with you on that.

Vicious
05-08-2007, 02:47 PM
There are other stories, and other points in which to do this at... perhaps... oh, I don't know. In the MMO where they are actually featured?

Blizzard was very keen on blaming the Old Gods on every big thing that happened in the past, normally i wouldn´t really care because they were trying to introduce other big villains to the story but that was just the tip of the iceberg, like you said the fact that Blizzard made them responsible for the creation for the naga was pretty pointless and somewhat out of character for Azshara.

But note that this retcon was made by Metzen and not Knaak, people stop stop using every fucking little thing to flame the man.

As for the upcoming manga, i´ll be waiting for it but not have high expectation for it, even i the Sunwell trilogy was all in all a nice read, really nothing mind breaking but a normal Warcraft story.

Flamestrider
05-08-2007, 03:32 PM
I think what Flamestrider wanted to say is that no event involving dragons after DotD worth a novelization. And I agree with him.


Exactly. Medieval, look back at that last of draconic events again and tell me if you could fill an entire book with any of them. Therefore, Knaack will likely invent a new crisis (probably involving Deathwing's next plan).

Now, mind you, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. As much as people tend to bitch and moan about retcons, much of Warcraft's lore is created after the fact. However, Knaack's novelization will most likely have Krasus and Rhonin come in and save the day from Deathwing. I don't find either Rhonin or Krasus to be particularly compelling characters, and I don't like anything that Knaack has written since Day of the Dragon. Therefore, my expectations are not high.

Aldrius
05-08-2007, 03:34 PM
But note that this retcon was made by Metzen and not Knaak, people stop stop using every fucking little thing to flame the man.

Really? In any case, I didn't really blame Knaak for it. I just said it was stupid. :P

Kenzuki
05-08-2007, 04:51 PM
If Krasus and Rhonin find and kill Deathwing, I'll cry.

He kicked their asses last time, I doubt they will hurt him. Besides, Alleria, Khadgar and Kurdran defeated him before, so it can be done again.

ARM3481
05-09-2007, 12:32 AM
Dunno, as tiresome as the dragon aspect (if you'll forgive the pun there) of the stories can be, there's the outside chance it's semi-self contained. Perhaps something to prepare for an upcoming event or later expansion.

While it might seem like there have been no significant dragon-related events to cover, consider this: there could always be more to the events that are corrupting many of the Green Dragons from within the dream. Hell, even the idea of a story recounting the Blue Dragonflight's efforts to hold off the Scourge from the Dragonblight (and untimately their at least partial failure) might prove interesting. Either of these sort of things could provide lead-in material to two places that we've yet to visit in WoW, namely the Emerald Dream and Northrend. There's even the possibility of shining some light on the activities of the Infinite Dragonflight, or perhaps large things are taking place deep within Grim Batol that could provide the background for a story. We've not seen a single aspect actually doing anything in the storylines provided to us since Deathwing fled Grim Batol with the other four Aspects in pursuit. Perhaps there's an epic tale behind his flight with the other four on his heels that could provide an excitng story and lead us toward the Netherwing/Dragonmaw clan story's connection to Deathwing.

To be fair, the novels have been the only real source of interaction and lore that we've been given involving the dragons. Otherwise they've served largely as eye candy in the games, providing basically a usable unit in WC2, powerful creeps in WC3 and often being so vast and unfathomable in WoW that they're either enigmatic NPC's with no personal background or gigantic raid bosses.

Personally, I'll wait till we at least know the gist of the teaser text on the back of the novel before I pass judgement.

Coljun
05-09-2007, 06:57 AM
It's not so much the fact that it's about dragons that bothers me, though I would like a book about something else.

There is nothing wrong with Krasus and Rhonin as characters in my opinion, they're not great characters but they're not that bad either. The thing that bothers me is that Krasus gets thrown into every thing Knaak writes and thusfar has a hand in a lot of major events, that is what bothers me. Knaak makes Krasus way to important in my opinion.

Timolas
05-09-2007, 08:36 AM
Krasus sounds like one of the Old Gods, having a hand behind... well... everything.

Nephalim
05-09-2007, 09:06 AM
But note that this retcon was made by Metzen and not Knaak, people stop stop using every fucking little thing to flame the man.The Old Gods' involvement was pointless, yes, but did it have to be? There couldn't have been some previous tie to the Old Gods? This significant revelation couldn't have had a lead-up, possibly more than a half-page featurette?

That Metzen was the brain behind the idea doesn't somehow absolve Knaak. He's the writer. He COULD have made the whole thing at least make some provisional sense. I somehow doubt that part of his instruction was just to throw it in with no meaning or purpose.

Drirlake
05-09-2007, 02:31 PM
Ohhh no not another god damn knaak story about dragons....
Sunwell triology, all three comics. sucked.
WOTA was stupid and pointless.
I will have to quote Flamestrider on that one:

Aw,fuck.

Kenzuki
05-09-2007, 02:31 PM
Well considering Metzen forgot his own story for the origins of the Burning Legion......Not to mention forgetting Gilneas.

Aldrius
05-09-2007, 02:39 PM
Yeah... he didn't forget either.

Kenzuki
05-09-2007, 02:58 PM
Yeah... he didn't forget either.

Metzen: You know what guys, I'm bored of Warcraft's fantasy stuff. I want redeemed, space paladin demons!

Blizzard Staff: But sir, what about the lore?

Metzen: What about the lore?! I AM the LORE!

Aldrius
05-09-2007, 03:03 PM
I think it was more:

"I dig paladins. How about a race of Paladins?"

"But sir where the hell would we get a race of paladins?"

"I dig the way Archimonde looks. He's cool, dude. *Wrecks a motor bike*"

"How on earth could we possibly get a race of Paladins that look like Archimonde?"

*3 months later*

Metzen: Hey guys! I know you loved the Eredar, and I know how you all loved Paladins... SO OBVIOUSLY THEY GO PERFECTLY TOGETHER!!

Nephalim
05-09-2007, 09:20 PM
Here's how I see the "I just plum forgot about it" thing.

Option A: An entire team of writers, some of whom's sole job it is to keep on top of game history and, so they allege, make sure it's consistent, just up and forgot a detail which was minor in technicality but world-shaping in practicality. A detail, incidentally, which possibly millions had retained and immediately noticed when they posted something different.

Option B: They remembered, and opted to instead institute a completely avoidable retcon. When approached about it, having no good excuse save sloth for making the change, they fed their angry public a weak lie.

So which is it, Blizzard? Idiots or assholes?

It's times like this, and it's happened before, when it dawns on me, with absolutely no hubris, that I could do a better job handling something I love than the people handling it. And that's not me tooting my own horn. It's me crying in a corner.

Aldrius
05-09-2007, 09:40 PM
Well, at least when it comes to consistency I suppose.

I really don't understand how either option is plausible. I just... yeah, I don't get it. Neither makes sense.

emperium
05-09-2007, 10:48 PM
Thank goodness they are plnning on making a woTA compilation. I can't find the darn book anywhere here in my country. As for "night of the Dragon" well if its as good as "Day of the Dragon" you wont see me complaining.
Btw I actual like the title "Night of the Dragon".

Flamestrider
05-10-2007, 12:29 AM
Ohhh no not another god damn knaak story about dragons....
Sunwell triology, all three comics. sucked.
WOTA was stupid and pointless.
I will have to quote Flamestrider on that one

Hah! Drir agrees with me! The end of the world must be near.

Aldrius
05-10-2007, 12:58 AM
Wait, that means Drir agrees with me too...

...

Now if we can get Neph, Vicious and Kenzuki in on this action the world will come to an end!!

Kerrah
05-10-2007, 02:53 AM
During desperate times, even the worst enemies can ally together.

Nephalim
05-10-2007, 08:34 AM
I really don't understand how either option is plausible. I just... yeah, I don't get it. Neither makes sense.But there's not really any alternative. Either Metzen was lying or he was telling the truth.

Aldrius
05-10-2007, 02:00 PM
Or he was so crazy with the thought of a Draenei race that look cool and are paladins, he didn't think twice about the reprucussions (I can't spell T_T) of introducing such a thing would mean!

Nephalim
05-10-2007, 02:15 PM
Or he was so crazy with the thought of a Draenei race that look cool and are paladins, he didn't think twice about the reprucussions (I can't spell T_T) of introducing such a thing would mean!And nobody else on the story team either remembered or thought to remind him? Idiots. Or they lied about it. Assholes.

Aldrius
05-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Yeah, but they've never screwed around with the story THAT badly before. There has to be SOMETHING we don't know about. =\

Not defending the writing team here, just saying...

Kenzuki
05-10-2007, 02:26 PM
Here's how I see the "I just plum forgot about it" thing.

Option A: An entire team of writers, some of whom's sole job it is to keep on top of game history and, so they allege, make sure it's consistent, just up and forgot a detail which was minor in technicality but world-shaping in practicality. A detail, incidentally, which possibly millions had retained and immediately noticed when they posted something different.

Option B: They remembered, and opted to instead institute a completely avoidable retcon. When approached about it, having no good excuse save sloth for making the change, they fed their angry public a weak lie.

So which is it, Blizzard? Idiots or assholes?

It's times like this, and it's happened before, when it dawns on me, with absolutely no hubris, that I could do a better job handling something I love than the people handling it. And that's not me tooting my own horn. It's me crying in a corner.


You know it Neph. I could have come up with a better reason for Draenei to be this way.

The Draenei were Eredar who escaped from Argus before their brethren delved too deeply into arcane magic and became demons. Then the Bad Eredar went on to be imprisoned by Sargeras etc.

SEE! It would make sense!

Aldrius
05-10-2007, 02:27 PM
The simplest way to undo the ret-con is to say that Kil'jaeden corrupted the Eredar instead of Sargeras.

There.

That's like... a one-word change.

Ersinus
05-10-2007, 03:22 PM
Eredar Civil War is the best

Nephalim
05-10-2007, 03:26 PM
Or this:

The eredar as a species become corrupt as their technology and magic advances and advances. After destroying their world (Argus, I suppose) with these volatile customs, they began to move on to other worlds, in essence becoming what we know as demons. Basically, as a people, the eredar are self-corrupted.

The triumvirate of Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and Velen we can keep. Perhaps they were the brains behind becoming man'ari or they could rise to power afterwards, it doesn't matter. After eons/whatever of feeding off the energies of world after world Velen has an epiphany. Perhaps he has a vision from K'ure, where the naaru rebukes him and his race from falling so far from where the naaru left them so long ago. Velen finds like-minded eredar but realizes that Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and the rest of the eredar are probably not going to go for this. Kil'jaeden discovers his plan to defect, and tries to stop him. Velen succeeds in stealing the ata'mal crystals and leaving with the now draenei, but Kil'jaeden dogs them at every turn.

Velen then finds Sargeras - who is still good at this point - and tattles on the eredar. He reports where they can be found and what they've been doing. Sargeras goes and imprisons them, Kil'jaeden vows revenge, the draenei continue on their way. Velen seeks out K'ure, beseeches him for guidance, and K'ure takes the draenei under its wing.

Then Sargeras goes nuts, Kil'jaeden gets out, the eredar resume the hunt for Velen, and the story continues on exactly as it already did.

Aldrius
05-10-2007, 03:34 PM
That's not nearly as simple. :P

It's good, though.

Nephalim
05-10-2007, 05:30 PM
Well this accounts for basically everything being the same way it is now, plus, in my estimation, it gives Kil'jaeden more reason to hate and want revenge on Velen than he currently has.

Aldrius
05-10-2007, 06:00 PM
Kinda makes the Draenei a little less boring too. Whereas right now they're completely dull and trite.

Vicious
05-11-2007, 05:28 AM
Well this accounts for basically everything being the same way it is now, plus, in my estimation, it gives Kil'jaeden more reason to hate and want revenge on Velen than he currently has.

Yeah, i liked it.

A retcon that includes everything in the old lore, now that would be a perfect way to makes the Draenei in Warcraft.

Kerrah
05-11-2007, 06:10 AM
A man can dream.

Deathwing
05-13-2007, 06:02 PM
Warcraft Lore will still be good as long as there is no more time travel and pointless retconing bullshit, like in WOTA. To me there's just one official timeline. The other doesn't exist

Yes, no more time travel. Also, i find it stupid that everyone can access the Caverns of Time now and time travel for fun and to get epixx while Brann Bronzebeard himself had so much trouble finding this secure and ancient place. Bronzebeard couldn't fully explore it because of the weirdness in it and such noobs as us are able to explore it and even time travel!

Yes, I hope Blizz will not consider time travel a fundamental part of the story, and keep it only in books and instances that nobody care.

Kenzuki
05-13-2007, 06:45 PM
Well I like the CoT instances, they are alot of fun. You grannies can just take the panties out of your cracks and enjoy it too. I see MYSELF as a hero, and a hero that is helping save the World!

Nephalim
05-13-2007, 07:00 PM
You're free to like whatever you want. That doesn't make it good.

Kenzuki
05-13-2007, 07:08 PM
You're free to like whatever you want. That doesn't make it good.

Doesn't make it bad either.

Flamestrider
05-13-2007, 07:42 PM
I see MYSELF as a hero, and a hero that is helping save the World!

Then why, pray, does the idea that you could kill a character of any importance whatsoever upset you?

Deathwing
05-13-2007, 07:50 PM
The instance may be fun in WoW (and that's good) but in future games and books it has to remain a secure and hidden place that no mortal is allowed to enter

Vicious
05-14-2007, 06:06 AM
The caverns of time aren´t that bad lorewise considering what the "hero" has done before that, besides it´s fun to do it.

Sometimes you guys ask to much of this game like i did quite awhile ago, it´s a MMO, they need any justification to do instances and this was the "coolest" thing they could co with the place, live with it.

Nephalim
05-14-2007, 08:09 AM
That's not even an argument. There are completely legitimate complaints about the Caverns of Time and your responses are "Well I like it, it's fun, so deal with it" as if it would be impossible for them to assuage these concerns, and still make it fun and likable.

And you're right, Kenzuki, your liking it doesn't make it bad. But it IS bad, nonetheless.

Vicious
05-14-2007, 08:32 AM
Dude, even if the story of CoT´s situation seems to be something that came out of Satan´s cinnamon roll, it doesn´t make the actual gameplay and the environment of the instances bad, they were all pretty well made and were a nice experience, especially Old Hillsbrad with his easter eggs (It was fun to watch the little rotine they made for the town even if it was kinda cheap).

Don´t expect Blizzard to "fix" the storyline of the place it just because it´s story is crap, they would have fixed the Draenei storyline long ago instead of justifying it.


Like i said they wanted to make something cool out of the place and that´s what they did, like "Bad guys are messing with the timeline, go safe it, you bad ass hero!!"

You can complain and give out your opinion but that´s pretty much it, we´ve all done it before, we´ve been over this and it won´t go anywhere.

I know that Blizzard´s been whoring out her franchise since WoW came but i´m still trying to enjoy it as best as i can but it´s been pretty hard lately because the only thing we´ve been discussing lately is how this or that sucks.

Nephalim
05-14-2007, 08:40 AM
I know it's fun, it was a well done instance, but they didn't need to do it the way they did and because a cornerstone facet of it has been ignored, it IS bad. Like I said before, a fun, linear, story-driven instance doesn't demand that it be a story we've been told before.

I'm not expecting a fix, to this or any other of the gross oversights Blizzard has made lately, but if we all just start throwing up our hands, giving up, actually praising Blizzard for the lax job they've been doing, we are telling them that they can do it again and they will continue to get away with it.

If your fanbase was being solely negative for an extended period of time, wouldn't you start to think that maybe you should get your act together?

Kenzuki
05-14-2007, 02:41 PM
I learned to accept alot of things with WoW and just hope that if they decied to make a Warcraft IV they can salvage something from it. Yes I'm pissed off that Illidan's, Kargath's, and Teron's storylines won't ever be continued now that we wtfpwnd them for phat lewt. But life goes on.

In the words of Teron himself "Hehehe....death....isn't so bad."

Aldrius
05-14-2007, 03:40 PM
Illidan died by a character's hand.

Were Teron and Kargath's stories going to be continued if they weren't in BC anyway?

Kenzuki
05-14-2007, 04:25 PM
Illidan died by a character's hand.

Were Teron and Kargath's stories going to be continued if they weren't in BC anyway?

Who could not have done it without my help. I'm The Captain!

Timolas
05-15-2007, 02:38 AM
Illidan died by a character's hand.

Were Teron and Kargath's stories going to be continued if they weren't in BC anyway?

Well I'd rather have had Teron in Kharazan rather than Prince Big-in-the-pants waving his particular about at the top of the tower. The Dark Rider rumour was pretty awesome.

Overall I can't say I care all that much about how things turn out with Warcraft anymore. =P

Vicious
05-15-2007, 09:05 AM
Well I'd rather have had Teron in Kharazan rather than Prince Big-in-the-pants waving his particular about at the top of the tower. The Dark Rider rumour was pretty awesome.

AS much as i hated that "theory", it would make more sense than he just siding with Illidan out of nowhere.

Nephalim
05-15-2007, 11:07 AM
Ok, honestly the only major character kill I've been concerned with is Kael.

- Balnazzar's revelation and quickly subsequent death were a major plot point and I think was handled pretty well. Plus we had all thought he was dead anyway.
- Kel'Thuzad's probably not dead. I'm not going to claim that Montoy was a Scourge agent, but he's obviously not the Dawn's, and it would be a weird cliffhanger to just forget about.
- As much as I liked her, Vashj's character was kind of floundering. Basically if she were going to betray Illidan for Azshara, she would have already, and therefore she's largely characterized by her loyalty for him. For her to die in his service seems as fitting an end as any. I'm more concerned with exploring her past; her reasons for joining Illidan in the first place, and of course, what Azshara has to say about the whole thing, and we can still do this with her gone.
- Kargath we had already assumed dead, even though nothing had strictly indicated that. I was glad to see him again so they could formally resolve his story rather than just leave it the loose end it had been before.
- Teron Gorefiend I was admittedly a little disappointed in. I thought the way they brought him back was superb, and when I heard he was a boss in the Black Temple, I thought it was a little weird. For one thing, why is he there? Why would he be loyal to Illidan? And for another, to go through all the trouble of bringing him back the way they did just to immediately kill him in a lore-light encounter seemed weird.
- Illidan's return seemed fairly tacked on anyway, since I had grown accustomed to the fact that he was dead after Frozen Throne, and this is his first real appearance since. Yes the transition from there to here could have been handled better, but again, there wasn't a lot more for his character to do. He's rejected too many chances at redemption, I do think it was time to put the whole affair to bed.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. There's not really any ideological difference between Arthas sending a dozen nameless ghouls to kill Uther than Nazgrel and Danath sending their forces against Kargath, or the Argent Dawn sending theirs against Kel'Thuzad. I don't see why the latter is somehow a disservice to them.

Aldrius
05-15-2007, 11:25 AM
Because then their deaths have no... poetry.

Whether Arthas sent his ghouls to kill Uther or not, he was the one who made the final blow, to Uther's heart (metaphorical :P) and his body. That's why I think it's cool that Maiev kills Illidan... even if their whole exchange afterwards is lame. (SHOW the fact that Maiev has no direction in her life now, Blizzard! Don't go "oh no, my life has no more meaning!! *Runs off a cliff*")

Nephalim
05-15-2007, 12:59 PM
First, Uther can die without Arthas ever seeing him.

Second, why does everyone seem to think that sticking a named character into the mix gives a villain's death more meaning? Take, for examples, Kel'Thuzad and Vashj. Previously, they had no nemeses. I suppose you could say Tyrande for Vashj (as per The Sundering's account) but that was a tad contrived and for her to come all the way to Outland when there's still tons to do in Azeroth is a bit off. However there are no characters with whom these two have ongoing feuds, save the vague generic crusades NPCs undertake against them, but they seem mostly directed at their entire organization than any specific ire against any specific person. Who could they throw into the encounter to suddenly make it poignant?

My point is everyone's up in arms that a team of "nobodies" killing these guys when teams of nobodies killed tons of people in Warcraft III. And if you're giving philosophical credit to the heroes who commanded them there, why are you neglecting to do so here?

Aldrius
05-15-2007, 01:26 PM
I dunno. To me it feels like if all they go is "NO. MY EVIL PLAN WAS SO PERFECT!" and then they die... that's kind of... pathetic. Especially with the characters we already have so much invested in.

Timolas
05-15-2007, 03:26 PM
*Adventurer pulls off the mask of Saiden Dathrohan to reveal Balnazzar's head.*
Bal: And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids!


Difference between having generic fighters killing characters and us is... well.. we're hearty adventurers with various different standings with various different groups. We are more random mercenaries than anything.
It's not exactly the forces of the Sha'tar and Ashtongue Deathsworn or whatever making the final strike. It's an assosciation of guys Revered with the Argent Dawn or whatever, Friendly or god knows what with the Timbermaw, this and that with everything else... and you get my point. All of us with varying gear and from an RP standpoint different motives.
While with 'Arthas' ghouls' taking swipes at Uther for example, those were genuine forces of the Scourge under Arthas' command, not Ghoulish Campers out for some gear. Who also happen to have ties to some other subgroup or two.

Flamestrider
05-15-2007, 10:51 PM
We've all already debated this issue to death anyway, but I do have one thing to say, regarding the motivations of players.

When you say it does a character disservice to be killed by players who just want loot, you're ignoring a rather blatant fact. Warcraft III players aren't necessarily any more dedicated to the lore than WoW players. Plenty of people played through Reign of Chaos and sent their ghouls to kill Uther not for the glory of the Scourge but so they could see shit get killed in the ensuing cinematics.

Canonically, Illidan dies because Maiev, Akama, and their allies kill him. The motivations of individual players are entirely irrelevant to the lore.