What the hell... [Archive] - Scrolls of Lore Forums

ScytheRexx

05-30-2007, 05:15 PM

So I was cleaning out my old e-mail address to move everything to my new one, and I noticed something odd...

For some reason I have Richard Knaaks e-mail address.

I don't know when the hell that happened.

Ersinus

05-31-2007, 01:22 AM

ask him about upcoming "dragon" book

Vicious

05-31-2007, 02:15 AM

It´s email in his blog, it´s probably the one he has to get feeback from readers or something.

I´ve send him a couple of e-mails actually and he replied to them both.

Timolas

05-31-2007, 06:15 AM

Don't let Aldrius get a hold of that or he'll be crying in no time.

Aldrius

05-31-2007, 06:30 AM

:P Who? Knaak?

"The legitimate complaints! HOW COULD HE!?"

Rebirth

05-31-2007, 06:57 AM

That's pretty cool! Start up a dialouge and see where it goes!

Kenzuki

05-31-2007, 09:55 AM

:P Who? Knaak?

"The legitimate complaints! HOW COULD HE!?"

I don't see how you COULD do that considering you don't actually READ his stuff rofl.

Nephalim

05-31-2007, 10:27 AM

Ask him what it's like to ruin everything he touches.

Kenzuki

05-31-2007, 11:18 AM

Ask him what it's like to ruin everything he touches.

That's not true. He's done a pretty good job on the Diablo world and he did a great job with Day of the Dragon.

Creative

05-31-2007, 11:30 AM

Yuber8900

05-31-2007, 12:28 PM

Ask him what it's like to ruin everything he touches.

Legacy of Blood is the greatest Blizzard book ever.

Aldrius

05-31-2007, 12:57 PM

I don't see how you COULD do that considering you don't actually READ his stuff rofl.

I've read some of it. (Okay, one book)

Still, I'm not wasting my money on that crap. And I don't need to read it to know it's crap, sorry.

And by crap I mean something I won't like, just to clarify.

Daeroth

05-31-2007, 01:29 PM

Ye know i dont quite understand all this negative attitude towards certain Authors, fair enough you might not like his way of writing etc.. but i've read tons of books, i love the Warcraft books, i'll admit some parts of the WotC stuff was a bit screwy.. but otherwise all Knaak, Golden, Grubb and anyone else thats doing or done Warcraft books has done a decent job.. am not expecting J.R.R.Tolkien... even though his books suck.. everyone seems to like him.. i certainly dont.. Middle Earth.. its like some kind of Rabbit land compared to Warcraft and the land of Azeroth/Outland.. think thats why i enjoy Warcraft so much, its still fantasy but it has some nice twist in it.. here and there etc etc

But seriously.. stop picking on folk.. instead give us a positive input, for example instead of saying "The Day of the Dragon sucks!" say something like "That Day of the Dragon was ok, but it could have been better" bah.. Wtf.. am wasting my time to be honest... like anyone is gonna listen

Kenzuki

05-31-2007, 01:35 PM

Daeroth

05-31-2007, 01:57 PM

as i mentioned above i can agree there, War of the Ancients was not great, however it did clear up some old problems.. ye cant get it right everytime eh

Rowan Seven

05-31-2007, 02:15 PM

But seriously.. stop picking on folk.. instead give us a positive input, for example instead of saying "The Day of the Dragon sucks!" say something like "That Day of the Dragon was ok, but it could have been better" bah.. Wtf.. am wasting my time to be honest... like anyone is gonna listen

I listened, although you might wish I had not. :P So, you want some constructive criticism, eh? Well, here's the EIGHT page review I wrote of Richard A. Knaak's "War of the Ancients" trilogy after reading it shortly after the last book was published. A few of my opinions have changed since then and I've become much more irritated over how Tyrande was thrown into the damsel in distress role, requiring the cumulative efforts of Malfurion, Illidan, Dath'Remar, and Elune just to stay alive, but I don't feel like revising this now.

My review

I promised myself that I would refrain from commenting on the quality and my opinion of Richard A. Knaak's "War of the Ancients" trilogy until I'd read all three books. There have been times when I regretted that decision, but now that I've read the trilogy I'm glad I made it. Before I continue, there are a few things that should be made known. First, I used to read a _lot_ of fanfiction, and that has likely lowered my standards of what I consider good or not considerably. Second, I began reading the trilogy with my expectations already dashed by several incisive comments I'd come across regarding the first book, "The Well of Eternity". Lastly, I'm _very_ good at rationalizing aspects of stories I don't like or that don't fit my 'view' of how matters should be.

Anyway, I suppose I'll start with the characters. Be warned, the rest of this opinion piece will contain spoilers.

Rhonin and Krasus/Korialstrasz - Bah. I enjoyed both much more in their roles in "Day of the Dragon" than the parts they play here. Krasus comes across as an all-knowing wiseman who everybody instinctively looks to for advice and, usually, obeys. Granted, this is understandable considering he's a dragon, but I felt it was greatly overdone. My complaints in regard to Rhonin are similar, and his approach to Illidan vexed me. You're worried that your 'student' is becoming power-hungry, mad, and possibly as great a threat to the world as the Burning Legion? Instead of standing around fretting, how about actually trying to do something about it like, say, _talking_ to Illidan about the dangers of arcane magic and magic addiction? Argh.

Broxigar - Decent. He's what one would expect from an aged, veteran orc of the New Horde. With that said, though, he doesn't depart from the character mold and his role and actions are reasonably predictable and somewhat unoriginal. Compared to Rhonin and Krasus, he draws the short stick.

Malfurion - Tentatively good. He's not what I expected and I think Knaak made him far, far too young, but his actions and behavior didn't grate on me and, based on how little I know of him, seemed reasonable. I got a little tired of reading the descriptions of him throwing seeds in combat, and Knaak is, in my opinion, better at detailing arcane spells than druidism, but, comparatively, Malfurion made out all right in this tale.

Tyrande - Not bad, but definitely underused. Like Malfurion, Knaak's depiction of her didn't greatly trouble me and appeared slightly more in-line with her Frozen Throne version than her embittered self in Reign of Chaos, minus the supreme confidence. Unfortunately, the contest between the two Stormrage brothers for her affection was, apparently, even more one-sided than I'd thought. Like Rhonin, I wish she'd actually sat down and had a nice, long talk with Illidan.

Illidan - Gah. Of the three Reign of Chaos Night Elf heroes, I think he made out the worst. Granted, I'm not his biggest fan, but what I found compelling about him in the games was that he was both victim and victimizer. Making understandable but arguably wrong decisions, he caused his own fall and has journeyed down the path of power for so long that stopping could very well lead to his death. Despite this, though, he still loves Tyrande, and she's the one sacrifice he will not make for his magic hunger. In this trilogy, however, he's characterized as a power-hungry, ambitious youth manipulated and warped by outside forces whose desires, by the end of the third book, for power and to be the hero appear to eclipse even his feelings for the night elf priestess. Illidan becomes more of a victim and even less responsible for his own actions, and perhaps his most redeeming quality -- his love for Tyrande -- is downplayed. There's a part where he actually calls her a "stupid little fool", drags her off, and silences her with magic to keep her mouth shut. Knaak does handle his relationship and conflicted feelings towards his brother well, and I found this to be one of the more interesting aspects of Illidan's character. In the first and even moreso in the second book, though, he's underused as Malfurion, Rhonin, and Krasus take center-stage, and it's not until the third book that he gets a major role.

Queen Azshara - Not what I expected and slightly disappointing. From the glimpses of her in the Warcraft RPG series and what I'd inferred from the various Warcraft histories and texts, I pictured her as a powerful, self-confident woman whose strength of will and beauty dominated all those around her and who openly commanded her subjects. In Knaak's trilogy, however, she plays the part of seductress who is herself seduced by the allure of the Demon Lord Sargeras. There is an appropriate irony in this, and I don't mind that she mesmerizes people with her beauty into doing exactly what she wants or that she desires to become Sargeras' bride. What I do mind is that she hardly does anything herself, leaving everything for others to accomplish. She has gone from a pivotal character instrumental in trying to summon Sargeras into Azeroth to one who seems to spend most of the third book making herself look good in an effort to please the Demon Lord. She has beauty _and_ power, and I expected her to use both. I just hope that 10,000 years under the Great Sea has convinced her to take a more hands-on approach.

The Shadowsong Siblings - I was hoping that Maiev turned out to be Jarod's daughter, but instead she's his older sister. Knaak characterizes her as a cold, somewhat ambitious woman, but, thankfully for us Maiev fans, she is shown to care for her brother and isn't written as being evil. The fact that she appears to forsake her ambitions and guards Illidan's cell for 10,000 years (not shown in the trilogy) can be construed to say something positive about her character. Jarod is all right. He felt different and younger in the third book for some reason, but it was nice to see someone other than Rhonin, Krasus, and Malfurion take charge and actually do something good. My only strong complaint is his stand against Archimonde. Talk about the little train that could...gah.

Dath'Remar - Excellent. His appearance came as a pleasant surprise, and although he only plays a minor role Knaak, in my opinion, did an exceptionally good job characterizing him. He's what I'd expect from one brave and bold enough to challenge Malfurion and lead his people across the Great Sea, and I mean that in a good way. He has charisma, compassion, _and_ common sense.

Shandris - She came across as a little annoying at times, but her role was minor and there's nothing about her that I really disliked. Like Maiev and Vashj, she seems to have been included more for the sake of having recognizable names than narrative purposes.

Cenarius - I find myself with nothing particularly positive or negative to say about his portrayal in this tale. His former role of leading the forces of the world against the Burning Legion is somewhat usurped by Krasus and Jarod Shadowsong, but he's still pivotal to the story. The problem, though, is that most of what he does is done off-scene. Like Mannoroth, this trilogy should've been his chance to shine. Instead, he serves more of a supporting function.

The Five Aspects - I know Knaak had a large role in creating the Five Aspects, but the only one I felt he did a good job depicting in this story is Nozdormu, and the leader of the Bronze Dragonflight spent most of the tale struggling against the unraveling of time in every instant of his existence. Malygos came across as hackneyed, and Alexstrasza and Ysera were so-so. Neltharion...well, his madness could've been handled better, but fortunately his characterization improved in the third book, in my opinion. The single-minded obsession and determination that make Deathwing so terrifying are present, although his dangerous cunning is not. He is quite insane, though, so that's easily explainable. Still, in the first and second books they and their interactions with each other felt...clichéd. They did not feel like the great beings they are.

Ravencrest - a high-ranking night elf who's competent and _not_ evil? Ha, imagine that! Seriously, though, I'm glad Knaak gave us a night elf who occupied a high place in society and is an intelligent military strategist. Compared to the annoying shallowness much of the night elf nobility displays in the trilogy, he's a breath of fresh air. His presence also makes a great deal of sense because, in that time period, he's a well-known, highly-esteemed figure that people would rally around and fight under, as opposed to Malfurion and Illidan who aren't quite as recognizable yet.

Stareye - Shallow and seems to be in the book for the singular purpose of looking bad. Knaak could've given him more depth and used him for more.

Vashj - She's a devoted, devious Azshara groupie seemingly bordering on madness who will do anything to ensure that she remains her queen's favorite servant. That about sums up her depiction right there. Since she is in the story, I think I would've liked to have seen more of her and for her to possess a bit more complexity, but I don't have any actual complaints about her portrayal. I am glad, however, that she seems to have grown more of a spine by the time The Frozen Throne rolls around, metaphorically speaking of course.

Xavius - Used to good effect in the first book, underused in his new form in the second. He's supposed to be the first satyr and a veritable legend according to "Shadows & Light", but that promise is never achieved here. After his first "death", he's reborn, goes around transforming more night elves into satyrs, does a little devious scheming here and there with the intention of furthering the Legion's goals and acquiring his revenge against Malfurion, and then "dies" again. I find myself hoping he's still alive just so he can be put to good use again.

Varo'then - Compelling in his single-minded devotion to his queen and determination to make himself worthy of her. His obsession is so strong that it's arguably madness. He's not my favorite character, but Knaak used him effectively and, as a supporting character, he was remarkably _not_ underused.

Hakkar - Definitely underused. He shows up, he does a few things, Mannoroth shows up, he does a few more things, and then he dies and may or may not become a troll blood god. Hopefully the upcoming release of Zul'Gurub will clarify this mystery. His characterization is all right, but, once again, he's underutilized.

Mannoroth - Poor Mannoroth. The War of the Ancients should've been his chance to shine as he slaughters scores of Kalimdor's defenders, slays the demi-god Agamaggan in brutal mortal combat, and (possibly) confronts Cenarius himself. Instead, this engine of raw destruction and death is obliged to sit most of the war out back in Zin-Azshari and oversee the portal's spellwork despite being more bloodthirsty warrior than sorcerer. This, to me, is a grave disappointment, and I disagree with Knaak's portrayal of the Pit Lord. He seemed far too fearful of his superiors when his overriding desire should be to prove himself in battle and slaughter all foolish enough to stand before him. Instead, he probably kills more of his "allies" than enemies. He was...more subordinate than monster here, and Mannoroth deserved better.

Archimonde - Indifferent. I neither overly liked nor disliked his characterization. I just wish his scenes had been a bit more impressive. He has _one_ epic (but incredibly short!) battle against Malorne, and that's it. For most of the rest of the second and third books, he spends his time in the background, alternately getting the portal properly working again or commanding the Legion's armies. Granted, I know that in Warcraft III's defense of the World Tree he also assumed a back-up role, only taking to the field after the defender's held out against surprisingly large numbers of assaults, but against the dragonflights and a demi-god charge I would've expected more effort from him. Archimonde has ravaged worlds, and his full power, if it had been released, likely could've caused untold havoc and chaos in the armies of his enemies. Besides, I partially suspect that in Warcraft III Archimonde was deliberately wearing down his armies to eliminate possible opposition to his plans to drain the World Tree and acquire power rivaling the Demon Lord Sargeras'.

Story: In my opinion, Knaak is an official source like the Warcraft RPG series is an official source: both are given information and data from Blizzard and allowed to work with it. Where the two differ is that the Warcraft RPG is mostly a technical product that strives to translate the Warcraft universe into a playable D&D game while Knaak is a creative author who is willing to "change" and "innovate" what Blizzard supplies him with. For whatever reasons, Blizzard allows Knaak to do this and even seems pleased enough with his results to hire him for more projects. Regardless of whether what Knaak does is good or bad, it has lead to inconsistencies between what former Warcraft manuals and the Warcraft RPG series states happened and the events and characters Knaak describes. Furthermore, although the time-traveling aspect of the tale and possible changed history can be used to explain many of the incongruities, I would not say that it can be used to rationalize _all_ of them. I'll write more about this later.

The story is relatively simple and straightforward. Krasus, Rhonin, and Broxigar are caught in a tear in time that sends them back to the ancient past just as the first invasion of the Burning Legion is about to begin. Drawn into events upon which the entire future of Azeroth rests, they must work with the heroes and defenders of the age to ensure that their presence does not change history and lead to the victory of the demons against the world. The reader can take it for granted that, since these three are there, they're not going to sit things out and try too hard to minimize the impact of their actions. Krasus and Rhonin play major roles in the trilogy, so large in fact that I'm left wondering how the night elves were ever able to defeat the Legion in the first place without their help. There are also confirmations of things long suspected and new revelations of what took place during the War of the Ancients in this story, some more obvious than others.

One of my biggest complaints about this trilogy is how greatly Knaak exalts Rhonin, Krasus, and even Broxigar at times. Rhonin and Krasus both seem to be more than a match for any Eredar Warlock or Nathrezim they come across save Archimonde, even though Eredar Warlocks are supposed to be some of the most feared and powerful spellcasters in the universe and Nathrezim are renowned for their craftiness. Instead, while reading the first two books my impression was that they, Illidan, and occasionally Malfurion were doing more damage single-handedly to the Burning Legion than Ravencrest's entire army. Matters become notably better in the third book as more characters finally get their time in the spotlight, but the change is a long time coming and the past deference to Rhonin and Krasus never completely fades.

Conversely, other characters have their importance minimized. In the 'original' timeline, Tyrande played a central role and fought with Malfurion all the way to Azshara's summoning chamber where the injuries she received at the hands of the Highborne threw Malfurion into a mighty rage that helped him throw Azshara's spellwork into chaos. In Knaak's version of events, one could probably write both Tyrande _and_ Azshara out of the story with little effort. Tyrande is, unfortunately, mostly cast as the love interest and damsel in distress, and I've already commented on my opinion of Azshara. The climactic showdown between the Queen of the Night Elves and Malfurion never takes place, and Rhonin and Krasus, characters who shouldn't even be there (unless the entire story is fated which opens up a different quandary), are now more vital to the storyline than both the Moon Priestess and future Naga Empress. Others, notably Mannoroth and Cenarius, are also affected by this playing down of roles, and the tauren, furbolg, and Earthen who come to the aid of the night elves are hardly shown doing anything other than showing up and bashing in heads with a few scattered lines of dialogue.

Furthermore, contradiction of past sources is a recurring event in this tale. To begin with, Knaak quickly states that there have been no recordings of successful half-elf births. In the very first book of the Warcraft RPG series, though, half-elves are presented as a playable -- albeit rare -- race, and, while the RPG series has its fair share of errors, I highly doubt they'd make up an entire playable race without permission from Blizzard. A short bio for Finnall Goldensword, a half-elf who is Daelin Proudmoore's bastard daughter, is even presented in the "Alliance & Horde Compendium", and creating a character related to the Proudmoore family is something I hope the Warcraft RPG team wouldn't do without Blizzard's approval. I consider it far more likely that Blizzard invented Finnall Goldensword.

This goes on and on, with everything from character ages to the events surrounding Sylvanas' death to Cenarius' parentage. In order to digest this smoothly, I had to repeatedly rationalize what I was being told. No records of successful half-elf births? Ah, that statement might be coming from Rhonin's perspective, and as a soon-to-be father he's likely worrying so much that his thinking is being affected. Sylvanas captured, mutilated, slain, and then brought to a temple where Prince Arthas changed her into a banshee as opposed to her defeat and transformation into a banshee in battle as shown in "Reign of Chaos"? Rhonin heard wrong. The Doom Guard commander Azzinoth, from whom Illidan looted his warglaives, isn't in the trilogy at all? Maybe Illidan fought and defeated Azzinoth in a battle Knaak never wrote about, and Illidan didn't need to use the warglaives he was hiding on his person in the parts of the story he appears in. Or perhaps, despite all odds, Azzinoth somehow managed to stay on Azeroth after the Burning Legion's defeat and the Night Elves let Illidan loose temporarily for the sole purpose of hunting the Doom Guard commander. Dath'Remar's having the surname Sunstrider _before_ his exile from Kalimdor and the embrace by him and those who followed him of the sun instead of the moon? Um...

Two of the more vexing inconsistencies are, thankfully, somewhat resolved in the third book. The reader finally learns why everybody has been referring to the Earthen as dwarves when dwarves shouldn't exist until after the Sundering, and Knaak explains that although _some_ myths claim that Elune is Cenarius' mother, Ysera is actually the one who birthed him although the true story is complicated. The fact that the Earthen are up and about and actually known to other races, though, seems to contradict their history that they remained below the world's surface until after waking up as dwarves (That's what I think the Warcraft history asserts, at any rate). Still, perhaps these Earthen were an exception, and maybe the reason why there are still Earthen in Uldaman is because the Earthen who fought in the War of the Ancients and survived somehow sailed back to Azeroth and returned to their home, unaffected by the cataclysm that created the dwarves. As for Cenarius, well, Krasus did say it's complicated, and since the Moon Goddess Elune doesn't seem to have a truly physical form...perhaps Ysera who also loved Malorne volunteered to "assist", if you catch my meaning? *coughs* The fact that I had to do so much rationalizing to force this story to correspond to what I consider to be the Warcraft universe, though, is, in my mind, a severe defect of this trilogy, and I felt like I was grasping at straws at times.

Then there's the whole question of whether this is fated or not and if what Knaak states happened actually did occur in the first place. Personally, from the glimpses I've come across and inferences I've made about what happened "originally", I think I much prefer that to what Knaak has written. However, other than the Blue Dragonflight being saved from utter extinction and the actions of the Night Elves when confronted by orcs and humans in Warcraft III seeming rather..._odd_ in light of Rhonin and Broxigar's presence in the past, it does appear possible that the rest of the timeline would've remained relatively unchanged, and, although I don't remember the text of "Day of the Dragon" perfectly, the two quandaries I mentioned above can probably be explained away with a lot of effort. Additionally, unless events were sped up considerably as a result of the time travel or the influence of other outside forces, Malfurion, Illidan, and Tyrande's ages in Knaak's trilogy are inconsistent with the "original" timeline, casting doubt on its viability. Then again, keeping character ages consistent is not known to be a strongpoint of Blizzard. Also, Aviana as depicted by Knaak is different from the Aviana glimpsed at in the RPG installment "Shadows & Light" which seems to follow "original" events. In light of this trilogy, I don't know whether there even was an original timeline now.

The quality of the writing was lower than I expected, too. Technical mistakes litter the entire trilogy (more than I'd expect from a professional author, at least), and there are portions of the first book that felt, to me, more like final drafts than finished products. I'm left wondering who Knaak's editor was and why so many errors weren't caught before publishing. Parts of this story strain credibility as well. The demi-god Cenarius not being able to discern that Krasus is a dragon until after many hints have been dropped? A goblin knowing more about how the Demon Soul works than Neltharion himself? Broxigar not recognizing the names of Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande Whisperwind, the leaders of the night elves in his time and two of the valiant heroes who fought at the World Tree? Broxigar not even knowing who Cenarius is, despite the orc hero Grom Hellscream having recently slain the demi-god? Everybody being able to understand each other despite having different native tongues? Gah.

With all that said, however, there are things I liked about this new version of events. Ravencrest's presence, as I already mentioned, makes a great deal of sense, and although the world-shattering confrontation with Queen Azshara is removed Knaak does give the reader an alternate climax that's fitting and splendid in its own right. Illidan and Malfurion's convoluted relationship is another high point, and the inclusion of those who are revealed on the excerpt of the story printed on the very first page of the third book thrilled me. Some longstanding questions I had concerning the Warcraft universe have also been answered by this trilogy, such as why the Naga apparently didn't come to the Burning Legion's aid in Warcraft III.

Conclusion: Here is a brief summation of my thoughts concerning this trilogy.

After reading "The Well of Eternity": (Angrily.) KNAAK!

After reading "The Demon Soul": (Uncertainly.) Knaak?

After reading "The Sundering": (Excitedly.) Knaak!

After having spent time thinking about the trilogy as a whole: (Shakes head.) Knaak…

To be slightly more detailed and to Knaak's credit, his writing gets better with each book. In my opinion, "The Well of Eternity" is bad, "The Demon Soul" is decent, and "The Sundering" is tentatively good, at least in comparison with the other two. Outstanding issues and problems I had with the story were dealt with or at least made less glaring, and the third definitely seems to be the most polished of the three. That I'm able to rationalize much of this story and sort of match it with the Warcraft universe is also a sign that things are salvageable, although the fact that I felt compelled to make such an effort doubles as a demerit.

It usually takes an awful lot to cause me to hate something, and I do not hate "The War of the Ancients" trilogy. I've read worse written stories and tales that significantly bored me. These books angered, irritated, and vexed me, but I was not bored to the point of wondering why I was even bothering to continue reading. By the same token, though, I didn't considerably like them either, and I think I can honestly say that I would've preferred it had they not been written.

More than anything else, I'm disappointed: disappointed in Knaak, disappointed in whoever Knaak's editor was, and disappointed in Blizzard. Knaak has talent, and "Day of the Dragon" is my favorite of the Warcraft novels published so far. I expected more from him, and, while I'm not going to say he should never contribute to the Warcraft universe again, I've come to think that he should stick to his own, original characters and leave important chapters of Azeroth's history and already established, fairly significant persons alone. As for Knaak's editor, whoever he or she is, I just wish that person had done a better job. There may have been extenuating circumstances such as rushed deadlines or personal crises I know nothing about, true, and if there were then the state of the books is much more understandable, but right now I still feel like the trilogy could've used another round or two of editing.

As for Blizzard, I know they're not the best at keeping their world histories straight. However, although ambiguities and inconsistencies remained post-Warcraft III and into WoW, Azeroth's many chapters were becoming increasingly coherent. The "War of the Ancients" trilogy undoes this, sowing confusion and doubt over what actually happened during one of the most pivotal events in the world of Warcraft's past. I hope Blizzard Entertainment doesn't accept this work of Knaak as 100% canon, but I shouldn't expect them to completely ignore it either. There are things I'll accept as truth and others that I'll discard as mistakes, but I don't know if Blizzard will make the same selections I did, and I don't like not knowing this. I've followed the Warcraft series for a fair amount of time now, and having so much uncertainty placed on the veracity of what I had believed happened with such a lackluster alternative version is upsetting and, as I've already written, disappointing.

I give Richard A. Knaak's "War of the Ancients" trilogy a weak 2.5 out of 5 stars and, unless you're a Warcraft lore-maniac, don't recommend reading it. You'd probably be better off learning the revelations this story contains from another source.

ScytheRexx

05-31-2007, 03:18 PM

Hakkar - Definitely underused. He shows up, he does a few things, Mannoroth shows up, he does a few more things, and then he dies and may or may not become a troll blood god. Hopefully the upcoming release of Zul'Gurub will clarify this mystery. His characterization is all right, but, once again, he's underutilized.

Just wanted to mention that the two Hakkars are not the same. It was already a confirmed blunder that they both shared the same name. Metzen apologized to Knaak for accidently using the name.

Yuber8900

05-31-2007, 03:24 PM

Just wanted to mention that the two Hakkars are not the same. It was already a confirmed blunder that they both shared the same name. Metzen apologized to Knaak for accidently using the name.

That was obviously written a long time ago.

ScytheRexx

05-31-2007, 03:30 PM

That was obviously written a long time ago.

What does that mean? Why would Metzen apologize to Knaak if Metzen already had the name written? Metzen, from what we know, was designing the character for WoW and used the name because he thought it was cool, but forgot the source he heard it from, leading to the confusion.

Kenzuki

05-31-2007, 04:20 PM

Wulfang

05-31-2007, 04:21 PM

What does that mean? Why would Metzen apologize to Knaak if Metzen already had the name written? Metzen, from what we know, was designing the character for WoW and used the name because he thought it was cool, but forgot the source he heard it from, leading to the confusion.

Scythe, Yuber was referring to Rowan's review. He indeed had written it a long time ago, before Zul'Gurub came out and the whole Hakkar screw-up was explained. I'm certain of this because I remember reading this review back then and because it mentions "the upcoming release of Zul'gurub" :D

Rowan Seven

05-31-2007, 05:29 PM

Scythe, Yuber was referring to Rowan's review. He indeed had written it a long time ago, before Zul'Gurub came out and the whole Hakkar screw-up was explained. I'm certain of this because I remember reading this review back then and because it mentions "the upcoming release of Zul'gurub" :D

Yes, I wrote this review before Zul'Gurub was released. In addition to stating that some of my opinions have changed with time, I should have also mentioned that some of my criticisms and questions have been voided by new developments. My apologies about that oversight.

Out of curiosity, Wulfang, where did you originally read my review? I only remember posting it to the old Singleplayer forum for Warcraft III at WorldofWar.net and the Warcraft RPG forum until now.

Aldrius

05-31-2007, 06:22 PM

The only thing of Knaak's he has read was some of part one of the War of the Ancients, which is not his best work by the way.

So? That's a quarter of everything he's written in the WarCraft universe... and it's not just WHAT he writes I don't like. I don't like his stance on heroes, his stance on villains, and out of character or not I couldn't stand the way he wrote Tyrande, Furion or Illidan. I don't like Krasus or Rhonin. I hate how he writes dialog and hell, I don't even like the way he writes dragons.

And no, I'm not going to sugar coat my criticism because that's how I feel. Sugar-coating it would be an insult to me and anyone reading this.

ScytheRexx

05-31-2007, 06:46 PM

My mistake then, I didn't really think about the Zul'Gurub comment.

Nephalim

05-31-2007, 09:37 PM

as i mentioned above i can agree there, War of the Ancients was not great, however it did clear up some old problems.. ye cant get it right everytime ehNot only was War of the Ancients not great, it was not good, nor was it even adequate. I can't even begin to get into how huge a disappointment that was. For every "old problem" it "cleared up" it presented about ten more. I departed the trilogy knowing LESS about the War than I knew going in.
Out of curiosity, Wulfang, where did you originally read my review? I only remember posting it to the old Singleplayer forum for Warcraft III at WorldofWar.net and the Warcraft RPG forum until now.Wasn't Wulfang at the SPF? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Vicious

06-01-2007, 04:05 AM

Wow, a day out of the forum and this turned into another Knaak´s bashing thread, those never get old....

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 10:20 AM

The only Knaak stuff I've read is the free-in-the-interwebs part of the manga, and it sucked.

I'm not going to start bashing though. I won't even say I know everything about the quality of his other material, which I haven't heard from Knaak-bashers.

Daeroth

06-01-2007, 10:28 AM

Daaamn.. that was a cool review and i agree with all said there Rowan, War of the Ancients wasnt perfect..

my personal favourite Wow books go in this list.

1. Lord of the Clans.
2. Rise of the Horde.
3. Of Blood and Honor.
4. Day of the Dragon.
5. The Last Guardian.
6. War of the Ancients Trilogy
7. Cycle of Hatred - really hate this one

As for the Manga books, i kinda like them however its a shame that such a good artist is being used to help Knaak, who does a shit job at the manga.. ahh well.

So far, Christie Golden and Chris Metzen are the only two people who make me really feel like am sitting in Azeroth, the other authors all make me feel as if am reading a book.. which i am.. but when i read a book i like to escape.. sadlt this doesnt happen in most books, Jeff Grubb came close, specially during the Gryphon flying parts.. anyhoo am out!

Kenzuki

06-01-2007, 11:55 AM

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 12:19 PM

"Dang! I HATE ketchup! I've never tasted ketchup before but I've tried mustard, and that's close enough. So I'm sure if I ever tried ketchup, I'de hate it too!"

That's what Aldrius sounds like to me. Seriously dude, pick up Legacy of Blood or the Sin War Trilogy. It's alot better.

Okay, I'm not even responding to this because you clearly just ignored every point I made...

and I'm not a fan of the Diablo series. (I've never played it) So I doubt I'll read either of his Diablo books. (Well, at least until I've played the games.)

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 12:34 PM

Okay, I'm not even responding to this because you clearly just ignored every point I made...

You make points?

When did this happen?
and I'm not a fan of the Diablo series. (I've never played it) So I doubt I'll read either of his Diablo books. (Well, at least until I've played the games.)

Play Diablo 2. It's the best single-player RPG I've ever played.

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 12:44 PM

You make points?

When did this happen?

Every single serious post I've ever made?

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 12:45 PM

Every single serious post I've ever made?

But making points is constructive and useful!

That's nothing like you!

edit: For political correctness: That's so unlike most people on these forums, including me!

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 12:56 PM

That's because... I'm actually... TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE! Ahahaha!

There's the nice Aldrius who loves Knaak and recognizes the extremely brillaint subtelty and self-referencing nature of the brilliant character portrayal. And how he's coyly commenting on the damsel in distress model by writing Tyrande as a weak-willed love-interest who needs to ask Malfurion for help when she wants to do something!

The mean Aldrius just doesn't like anybody! What a jerk he is!

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 01:03 PM

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 01:09 PM

...I have something else to reveal...

Bad Aldrius IS Boston Legal.

DUNDUNDUN.

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 01:15 PM

...I have something else to reveal...

Bad Aldrius IS Boston Legal.

DUNDUNDUN.

How can a fracture of your mind be a television series?

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 01:20 PM

How indeed. How indeed.

...wait, how IS that possible?

Kenzuki

06-01-2007, 01:48 PM

what if Aldrius WAS Richard A Knaak! You know, his self loathing side??

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 01:51 PM

what if Aldrius WAS Richard A Knaak! You know, his self loathing side??

That would totally blow our minds off.

But how could Knaak's self-loathing self only have read one of his own books?

Kenzuki

06-01-2007, 01:53 PM

That would totally blow our minds off.

But how could Knaak's self-loathing self only have read one of his own books?

Sea turtles, mate.

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 01:59 PM

Sea turtles, mate.

Well that explains it.

We got you know, Aldrius. Or should we say Knaakrius!

Daeroth

06-01-2007, 02:16 PM

"Dang! I HATE ketchup! I've never tasted ketchup before but I've tried mustard, and that's close enough. So I'm sure if I ever tried ketchup, I'de hate it too!"

Thats the funniest thing i've read in an age.. Kenzuki, you should be made a god among men, Ye and that Scythe fella.. you can decide who gets hell and heaven later

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 02:20 PM

Thats the funniest thing i've read in an age.. Kenzuki, you should be made a god among men, Ye and that Scythe fella.. you can decide who gets hell and heaven later

Hey! If you want to lick asses to get power down here, your nose should be pointing at the exactly opposite direction.

On other news, Scythe, if you do send Knaak a message, please dare him to make a Warcraft story without Krasus or Rhonin.

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 02:27 PM

Well that explains it.

We got you know, Aldrius. Or should we say Knaakrius!

You can't prove anything!

Kerrah

06-01-2007, 02:29 PM

You can't prove anything!

1. You post bad things about Knaak.
2. You are a shady character.

Therefore, you are Knaak's self-hating mental shard.

Q.E.D.

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 02:33 PM

Then where did I stash the jewels? HMMM? HMMMM?

Yuber8900

06-01-2007, 03:11 PM

Then where did I stash the jewels? HMMM? HMMMM?

Where the sun don't shine.

Wulfang

06-01-2007, 03:28 PM

Out of curiosity, Wulfang, where did you originally read my review? I only remember posting it to the old Singleplayer forum for Warcraft III at WorldofWar.net and the Warcraft RPG forum until now.

I read it in the White-Wolf WCRPG forums as I used to hang around there before I came to SoL. I still go there sometimes nowadays, but not very often.

Nephalim

06-01-2007, 03:34 PM

Wow, a day out of the forum and this turned into another Knaak´s bashing thread, those never get old....He never gets any better, so it does follow.

Kenzuki

06-01-2007, 03:37 PM

I like his Diablo novels, no matter what you guys say.

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 03:56 PM

I can't say anything about his Diablo novels because I know nothing about Diablo. =x Or how he writes Diablo.

Yuber8900

06-01-2007, 03:58 PM

I can't say anything about his Diablo novels because I know nothing about Diablo. =x Or how he writes Diablo.

And that gives you basis to bash everything he's written?

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 04:01 PM

When have I ever done that? o_O

Kenzuki

06-01-2007, 04:13 PM

I've read some of it. (Okay, one book)

Still, I'm not wasting my money on that crap. And I don't need to read it to know it's crap, sorry.

And by crap I mean something I won't like, just to clarify.

*coughs*

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 04:20 PM

I was talking about his WarCraft novels. I didn't even know he had Diablo novels. (Well I barely knew.)

Kenzuki

06-01-2007, 04:34 PM

I was talking about his WarCraft novels. I didn't even know he had Diablo novels. (Well I barely knew.)

So you say, but let me quote you again.

Dang! I HATE (diablo novels)ketchup! I've never tasted (diablo novels)ketchup before but I've tried (warcraft novels)mustard, and that's close enough. So I'm sure if I ever tried (diablo novels)ketchup, I'de hate it too!"

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 04:37 PM

...wasn't my point that I never said I hated his Diablo Novels?

Kenzuki

06-01-2007, 04:45 PM

...wasn't my point that I never said I hated his Diablo Novels?

No, you said you hated Knaaks writting. That means you hated the Diablo novels without reading them.

Aldrius

06-01-2007, 04:56 PM

Okay, now you're telling me what I said. That's great. You said "All you've read is the first part of the Well of Eternity!" then I said "I'm not reading anymore than that because I don't like it, and I don't need to have read it because I know I won't like it." I'm telling you now I was talking about WotA and the Sunwell Trilogy. (But I'm actually reading the Sunwell trilogy on WoW Europe because it's free. I don't like it that much, surprise surprise...)

Aldrius

06-03-2007, 07:58 AM

Double-posting so the topic bumps.

Okay, I read part 3 of the Sunwell Trilogy. Don't ask me how.

...WTF was that? The story was exciting enough, but the ending really sucked and the dialogue was better than what Knaak usually writes (maybe it's just me, but there didn't seem to be as much "betwixt the sun rises in the east!" as usual). But his characterization was worse than usual. Anveena is a giant mary sue, Dar'khan, while ***y is ridiculously cliche... and Sylvanas... oh boy, where to begin with Sylvanas? Black hair, night elf armor, stupid changed backstory, no signs of being undead whatsoever, and am I seeing things, or does she just vanish half-way through the book? And since when is she 'easily distracted'? And... oh god, I'm not even going to go on. I actually like Kalec and Tyri for some reason... as far as Knaak characters go at least. Which means they are tolerable. :P

So uh yeah, not as bad as I thought but not great either. It was diverting.

Vicious

06-03-2007, 12:15 PM

The artist was actually very good but Sylvanas was terrible, the artist kept a very "safe" view of Warcraft in general and toned down the gore of the story but he really pushed with Sylvanas and turned her rotting corpse into a gothic High elf because this is a manga and manga´s only for 12 year old pre-pubestic boys!

Anyway, that was my biggest disapointment in the art of the third book, the elves looked better than ever before though, they finally looked like they belonged in Warcraft, plus Lor´themar and Halduron look alot better than their gay ass models in WoW.

Ironic that Lor´themar was the only character that received some character development out of everyone, god knows every single one of them need it.

And i hate the complete childish and obvious "hints" of Mace and Tyri romantic relationship, they have to hurry their shit up since this is a trilogy so they throw a rescue/blush scene...it´s like they can´t themselves serious, i hope that the next manga makes something serious and believable out of that.

All in all nothing special yet enjoyable. Hope to see more of Kalec, Tyri and Mace used in a better way.

By the way, how did you read it, Aldrius?

Nephalim

06-03-2007, 12:49 PM

plus Lor´themar and Halduron look alot better than their gay ass models in WoW.Umm... they all looked like each other. I was a little amazed that they actually looked more unique in Burning Crusade than they did in the manga.

Aldrius

06-03-2007, 12:52 PM

By the way, how did you read it, Aldrius?

With my eyes!

...I still can't get over what a DITZ Sylvanas is in the third book... and I'm not crazy, right? Just before the chapter where Tyri and Krasus fight she disappears off the face of the earth right?

Vicious

06-03-2007, 12:59 PM

Umm... they all looked like each other. I was a little amazed that they actually looked more unique in Burning Crusade than they did in the manga.

Both their models in BC are fucking terrible, their designs in the manga were alot better, each of them had unique characterics that made you tell them apart very easily.

With my eyes!

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/Deathbringerpt/1179493773670.jpg

Aldrius

06-03-2007, 01:02 PM

I told you not to ask me...

Drirlake

06-03-2007, 02:59 PM

Umm... they all looked like each other. I was a little amazed that they actually looked more unique in Burning Crusade than they did in the manga.

Lor´themar and Halduron Look like shit in the BC, there is nothing special about them, Lorthemer is supposed to be one eyed, but for some strange reason he has both his eyes in the BC.

Timolas

06-03-2007, 03:08 PM

I thought Halduron looked pretty cool ingame. >.>

Kenzuki

06-03-2007, 06:03 PM

Doesn't anyone else think it's wrong for dragons to be having "relations" with mortals.....does that mean Warcraft can have Half-dragons now?

ScytheRexx

06-03-2007, 07:43 PM

Kenzuki

06-03-2007, 07:56 PM

Not a corpse? So what, is she alive then?

Nephalim

06-03-2007, 10:11 PM

Yeah but Scythe, aside from the Metzen drawing, Sylvanas has been portrayed in no way that is unique to her. Warcraft III just gave her a generic dark ranger model, World of Warcraft a generic night elf model, Ryan Sook just drew her based off that, and Jae-Kawn Kim seemed convinced she was a night elf druid.

And aside from the eye thing, Lor'themar and Halduron have a vaguely different hairstyle, and... different outfits, and look like every other elf in the manga. I mean, so they didn't get unique models in BC, I'm not exactly surprised, considering they were introduced in an aside on the blood elf homepage and then played stock filler roles in the last issue of the manga. Yes, it would be nice if Lor'themar was still one-eyed, but it would be far nicer if Sylvanas, Danath, Kurdran, and Kargath all looked more like they used to. My point, however, is that they still look more unique than they did in Ghostlands. I think Kim probably saw the early BC screenshots where all the men looked like this (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/images/screenshots/ss13.jpg) and responded accordingly.

Kenzuki

06-03-2007, 10:51 PM

Aye, taking WoW's veiwpoint of what Sylvanas looks like is kinda crazy. I'm going with Metzen's picture.

Vicious

06-04-2007, 02:55 AM

Yeah......i don´t think that Sylvanas´s depiction in WoW as a goth Night elf is canon.....they didn´t had a decent High elf model back then and didn´t bother with that.

They didn´t bothered with alot of things.

And there´s no recent drawings of Sylvanas where she´s not a walking corpse and i´m not counting the horrible drawing of the card game.

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 04:08 AM

I think we have to realize by now that Sylvanas is not a corpse anymore. All recent drawings of her, and even her model in WC3 if you want to think about it, have been complete and don't show any sign of scaring and such. The only time she has ever been shown with scaring, is the Metzen drawing.

She doesn't need to look like a corpse. She doesn't look like a corpse in WC3 other than her colouring and that eerie glow. She just doesn't look that CREEPY in Ghostlands I question why they're even fearful of her. She looks like a night elf wearing sentinel armor. (And yes, it is basically just Sentinel-Armor straight from Darnassus. =x)

Yeah but Scythe, aside from the Metzen drawing, Sylvanas has been portrayed in no way that is unique to her. Warcraft III just gave her a generic dark ranger model, World of Warcraft a generic night elf model, Ryan Sook just drew her based off that, and Jae-Kawn Kim seemed convinced she was a night elf druid.

To be fair, the Dark Ranger model was based off of her, more than she was of the Dark Ranger model. Hell, without Sylvanas in the storyline I doubt we even would have seen a dark ranger hero in melee.

-

As for her WoW model, I don't WANT them to change her into an undead high elf, because the high elf model doesn't suit her personality... AT ALL. It's too... small, slight.

Vicious

06-04-2007, 05:58 AM

As for her WoW model, I don't WANT them to change her into an undead high elf, because the high elf model doesn't suit her personality... AT ALL. It's too... small, slight.

It´s not the size that´s the problem, they could just make it bigger like they did with Maiev (when she had a Blood elf model), it´s the atittude....the Blood elf female model look like it´s about to go in a shopping spree any minute.

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 06:01 AM

It is the size, it's not the physical size, it's not too short or anything. They're just too skinny proportionates-wise.

Vicious

06-04-2007, 06:11 AM

Maybe handclaw could make a Sylvanas model using the Blood elf model to see how the thing would look.

Or anyone else.

Timolas

06-04-2007, 07:52 AM

Sylvanas needs her very own model.
They did that for Maiev in the last patch, and she already looked unique then as a Blood Elf base model.

Rebirth

06-04-2007, 07:54 AM

Sylvanas needs her very own model.

One day... one day they promised.

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 09:43 AM

It is the size, it's not the physical size, it's not too short or anything. They're just too skinny proportionates-wise.

So you're saying that she, being a former high elf, would not look good like she's SUPPOSED to? Elves are supposed to be slight of frame! That's the whole freaken point of being a elf!!

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 12:52 PM

Yes, she'd look terrible like that.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Sylvanas_High_Elf.jpg

Look at how terrible that looks compared to her WoW model... ick. Atleast her WoW model looks tough.

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 12:55 PM

Yes, she'd look terrible like that.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Sylvanas_High_Elf.jpg

Look at how terrible that looks compared to her WoW model... ick. Atleast her WoW model looks tough.

That actually looks more like her than the current model does rofl.

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 12:57 PM

...it looks nothing like her...

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 01:00 PM

...it looks nothing like her...

You're blind Sonny jim. It looks like a Dark Ranger to me, or at least closer to one than a damn night elf model she currently uses.

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 01:09 PM

It looks like a Calvin Klein model.

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 01:18 PM

It looks like a Calvin Klein model.

Sylvanas was a high elf, WTF do you THINK she should look like???

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 01:33 PM

Like a fierce ranger-general turned banshee queen?

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 01:39 PM

Like a fierce ranger-general turned banshee queen?

And a night elf with a slightly different skin tone does this for you?

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 01:42 PM

More than a high elf with a slightly different skin-tone. Much more.

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 01:44 PM

More than a high elf with a slightly different skin-tone. Much more.

So.....you're saying that a night elf looks more like a high elf than a high elf does?

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 01:46 PM

You're either an idiot or you're joking...

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 01:47 PM

You're either joking, or you're an idiot.

Hey, I'm not the one making contridicting statements here.

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 01:51 PM

I didn't make any contradicting statements...

EDIT: Here's what I'm saying. I'd rather she look like a 'fierce ranger-general turned banshee queen' than a 'high elf with a different skin-tone'. And I think that a different coloured Night Elf model looks more like a fierce ranger-general turned banshee queen than re-coloured High Elf model would.

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 02:47 PM

Aldrius

06-04-2007, 02:58 PM

I'm all for an original model that looks like a high elf that also captures the majesty and power of Sylvanas, though. =P

Kenzuki

06-04-2007, 03:05 PM

I'm all for an original model that looks like a high elf that also captures the majesty and power of Sylvanas, though. =P

Good, good. I'll recall that Ghost I sent to your house then.

Creative

06-13-2007, 08:53 AM

What was this thread about now again?

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 12:57 PM

Oh yeah, Knaak!

Knaak is bad. :P

Vicious

06-13-2007, 01:37 PM

Knaak is bad. :P

Quiet you!

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 01:51 PM

Oh yeah, Knaak!

Knaak is bad. :P

You've only read one of his books, you're not qualified to speak about him.

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 01:53 PM

Never!

You've only read one of his books, you're not qualified to speak about him.

Actually I've read two of his books dear. Both sucked really bad. Besides that I could read ONE book and decide if he was a good writer or not... a book THAT bad does not confidence inspire.

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 01:57 PM

Never!

Actually I've read two of his books dear. Both sucked really bad. Besides that I could read ONE book and decide if he was a good writer or not... a book THAT bad does not confidence inspire.

Read one that was not the War of the Ancients please ktxk. And I'm not your dear.

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 02:12 PM

Okay, then you're an idiot.

What the bloody fuck makes you think it was another War of the Ancients book?

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 02:14 PM

Okay, then you're an idiot.

What the bloody fuck makes you think it was another War of the Ancients book?

Now you're insulting me?

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 02:21 PM

Well, fine. You're not an idiot. But you're certainly jumping to conclusions... and not being very observant.

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 03:27 PM

I just don't think you should say all of his writting sucks when you've only read two of his books.

Vicious

06-13-2007, 03:31 PM

Herr.....take a chill pill guys?

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 03:39 PM

I don't have to read 'most' of what he read to know that he sucks and I don't like him. And I'm perfectly calm. =)

Out of 5 concepts of his, I've read almost half. =S

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 03:42 PM

Do I need to use the ketchup and mustard quote again?

Vicious

06-13-2007, 03:43 PM

Ok then.

Now you both agree to disagree and then kiss and make up.

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 03:43 PM

I'de rather kiss an orc.

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 03:50 PM

You're such a fucking hypocrite.

Mustard and Ketchup aren't applicable in this argument because it just... doesn't make any sense. It's not like saying that at all. It's like saying because I don't like two movies by a certain director I won't like any by him.

Guess what? I don't like Shumacer movies.

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 03:52 PM

No need for such harsh language, we're all friends here after all. If you don't like him that's fine, all I've said was read some of the other stuff. His Diablo novels are pretty good.

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 03:57 PM

That's hardly all you've ever said...

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 04:01 PM

If I'm harsh on you it's only because I want you to learn something young padawan.

Vicious

06-13-2007, 04:05 PM

When i realized that this thread went to the shitter the second Knaak was mentioned, i fucking laughed my ass off.

Kenzuki

06-13-2007, 04:14 PM

When i realized that this thread went to the shitter the second Knaak was mentioned, i fucking laughed my ass off.

YOU SAID THE SECRET WORD!

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 04:35 PM

Well fine, let's see if we can discuss it in a rational matter then.

I'd actually LIKE to talk about Ghostlands...

Vicious

06-13-2007, 04:43 PM

Oh yeah, that was the other piece of Knaak´s work you saw, right?

It was nothing special but not downright terrible.

?

Aldrius

06-13-2007, 04:59 PM

Well one thing I *HAVE* to say, is that Sylvanas was COMPLETELY out of character. Which is weird because the whole windrunner sisters thing started with Vereesa didn't it?

Vicious

06-14-2007, 06:11 AM

Well one thing I *HAVE* to say, is that Sylvanas was COMPLETELY out of character.

Not exactly.

Dar´khan, the newly created villain for the Sunwell trilogy turned out to be a very important person in High elven society, he was a member of the originall group that personally tended to the Sunwell and constructed Silvermoon itself and ended up participating in major events that screwed the High elf civilization, because of his he knew other familiar characters of great social standing such as Sylvanas, Lor'themar and probably Kael.

This brings up new rivalries about Sylvanas that we didn´t knew which was the main reason she entered Quel´thalas, to kill Dar´khan.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 06:19 AM

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 11:21 AM

That's not why she was out of character, though. She gets taken out in one hit and then she disappears. Obviously one hit from a dragon will beat her... but still... uh... you'd think she'd see it coming. Like I mentioned before. The hatred of Dar'khan was okay... I guess. Dar'khan himself was a pretty pathetic one-dimensional villain.

Why do people seem to dislike a villian who is exactly that? Not all of them have to have "gray areas" in their lives. If everyone is flickin' grey the whole world is BORING. Sometimes you need a villan like the Shredder or Mum'Rah or Skeletor. One that you KNOW he's evil and HE knows he's evil, and LIKES it!

I happen to think Dar'khan was cool.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 01:28 PM

A villain needs a motivation, you fool.

Dar'khan was cool until he opened his mouth. Then he became another arrogant sod of a character.

And how does one-dimensional translate to 'grey'? o_O

BW Megatron is an EVIL BASTARD... but he's very three-dimensional.

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 02:08 PM

I didn't say one dimensional equals gray you tool.

You know what his motivation was? POWER. Just like Kel'Thuzad's was. He wanted power, and Arthas gave him that for betraying Silvermoon.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 03:30 PM

I didn't say one dimensional equals gray you tool.

Yes you did.

You know what his motivation was? POWER. Just like Kel'Thuzad's was. He wanted power, and Arthas gave him that for betraying Silvermoon.

But power in itself is not a very... interesting motivation.

Kel'thuzad craved power, but Kel'thuzad didn't want power for the sake of power. Nor was power his sole motivation. Kel'thuzad had a sense of honor, and really, he's a pretty nice guy for an undead overlord. :P Very polite and cordial.

Really, comparing Dar'khan to Kel'thuzad is pretty silly...

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 04:09 PM

Why do people seem to dislike a villian who is exactly that? Not all of them have to have "gray areas" in their lives. If everyone is flickin' grey the whole world is BORING. Sometimes you need a villan like the Shredder or Mum'Rah or Skeletor. One that you KNOW he's evil and HE knows he's evil, and LIKES it!

I said, why do people seem to dislike a villian who is exactly that (a villan). Then I said not all of them have to have gray areas. I did not say what you said that I said.

What other reason did Kel'Thuzad want power for then praytell?

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 04:12 PM

Destiny.

I said, why do people seem to dislike a villian who is exactly that (a villan). Then I said not all of them have to have gray areas. I did not say what you said that I said.

You said it in response to me saying that Dar'khan was one-dimensional. :P

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 04:17 PM

I didn't mean it like that.

Destiny? He wanted to practice Necromancy for power, it was a forbidden art that yielded great power. When his colleagues forbid him from practicing he said "Flick you all, I'm going to go start my own group!"

Kel'Thuzad wanted power, make no mistake. He got it too. He knows he's evil, and he acts it in a way that makes you be at ease, until he rips you to pieces with his chains.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 04:31 PM

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 04:34 PM

Kel'thuzad doesn't 'know he's evil'. He thinks he's a prophet, an enlightened prophet. To his glorious god the Lich King, whom will give all who allow themselves to hear his word, power and immortality. And he's HONORED to help Ner'zhul achieve his goal.

Doesn't know he's evil? He's not stupid rofl. Seeing yourself as evil doesn't mean that he sees himself as wrong. Arthas saw himself as evil, but he didn't see himself as wrong.

"I was a fool to trust in the Light. The Lich King has given me TRUE power."

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 04:35 PM

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 05:44 PM

... To be evil is to be wrong. I'm sure he realizes that the living sees him as a heretic, but he disagrees and feels that in time, they too will either see the Scourge as the god-send it truly is, or be scourged from the land as the unenlightened filth they are.

You're wrong there mate.

Evil does not always equal seeing yourself as wrong. Gul'dan saw himself as evil, Kil'jaeden nows he's evil, they didn't see themselves as wrong though.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 05:56 PM

Kenzuki Said I'm Wrong So I Must Be!!! Even If His Logic Is Retarded And Doesn't Make Any Sense!!!

Vicious

06-14-2007, 05:58 PM

She gets taken out in one hit and then she disappears. Obviously one hit from a dragon will beat her... but still... uh... you'd think she'd see it coming. Like I mentioned before.

What part are you talking about?

I remember that Dar´khan imprisioned her to watch him get the power of the Sunwell and then Kalec tried to save him which ended up in both their asses getting owned but Sylvanas was still binded by Dar´khan magic when she took the blow so probably those wouldn´t come off until Dar´khan died.

That´s how i see it at least.

But yeah, she got very few screen time, while Lor´themar said she left on friendly terms, they could have least showed her vanishing in the forest or something.

The hatred of Dar'khan was okay... I guess. Dar'khan himself was a pretty pathetic one-dimensional villain.

I think that pathetic is too strong for him, generic or cliché, yeah i can go with that but he was the first High elf with *some* real ambition, every other Warcraft High elf is a soft spoken, peace loving scout.

And again, calm down, this is getting irritating.

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 06:01 PM

Kenzuki Said I'm Wrong So I Must Be!!! Even If His Logic Is Retarded And Doesn't Make Any Sense!!!

Yup, you're wrong. You remind me alot of Judicator Aldaris. You're name even sounds simular.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 06:09 PM

I'm not wrong. You don't even know what you're talking about. You don't even seem to know what the word 'evil' means.

What part are you talking about?

The part where Krasus runs her over then he ties her up? Then she just... disappears. No mention of where she went and she plays no role in Dar'khan's defeat. They advertise her as a major character in the story and she does like nothing.

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 06:34 PM

The Judicator didn't think he was wrong either. I'm saying that a evil person can think of himself as evil and still be evil. He doesn't have to believe himself wrong though. Gul'dan certainly knew he was an evil bastard, even seemed to take pleasure in it too.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 06:35 PM

There's a difference between taking pleasure in the suffering of others, and reveling in your own power... and thinking you're evil.

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 06:38 PM

There's a difference between taking pleasure in the suffering of others, and reveling in your own power... and thinking you're evil.

Explain your self Judicator?

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 06:44 PM

You're the LAST person who should be calling me hard-headed.

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 07:00 PM

You're the LAST person who should be calling me hard-headed.

I didn't call you hard-headed Judicator.

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 07:56 PM

Whatever you say, jackass. =)

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 08:01 PM

Whatever you say, jackass. =)

At least I'm not Kerrigan's bitch. ^_^

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 08:04 PM

At least I'm not Kerrigan's bitch. ^_^

When was Aldaris Kerrigan's bitch?

Kenzuki

06-14-2007, 08:10 PM

When was Aldaris Kerrigan's bitch?

Whenever she wtfpwnd you on Shakuras.Tell me something Judicator, did it hurt? *laughs evily*

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 08:13 PM

No, did it hurt when you got hit on the head? =(

ARM3481

06-14-2007, 10:14 PM

An important aspect of evil in beings is that, by the classic interpretation, it ultimately is a form of self-destruction. Obviously, to be utterly convinced of one's evil to its utmost would mean acknowledging and pursuing the end result of losing everything, including that which one gained through falling to its lure in the first place.

A defining factor of villains is that, even the most evil among them carries the smallest spark of what would be considered good. And that good is hope, in the form of their hope that after all is said and done, they'll get what they want with no strings attached and without losing what they still value. That part of a villain is what allows them to do so many things they think are wrong while still believing that they are in the right. Their "right" just means the denial of everyone else's definition of right while adhering to their own. Even Skeletor-types think that the best thing for everyone and everything (in particular for themselves) is to take control of it all and be in charge.

Undiluted evil is hard to manifest in a character, because it requires that character to be detached from all things to the point of not even caring if they succeed, and that's a whole special kind of crazy that doesn't always lend itself to easily understandable characterization. Such characters would act on impulse alone, with no plan beyond what they want at any given moment (incidentally, I just read a story with such a character, or at least one much along those lines. He constantly does things of questionable morals or even outright terrible acts of murder and violence, and although he knows why he's doing them during the act, once they're done he isn't even capable of understanding why he did them, only that he really wanted to at the time. He knows he's evil in the sense that everything he wants and does would be classified as such, but he's so detached and oblivious of the very concept of morality that he can't comprehend the possibility that he's either right or wrong, only that certain acts feel good to do, including murder, rape and theft.)

Aldrius

06-14-2007, 10:35 PM

ARM3481

06-14-2007, 10:47 PM

Well to bring the discussion back to Dar'khan. I just suppose that as a villain there's nothing really... engaging about him. Villains are often used as looking glasses into the dark side of human nature, and usually there are things that are observed about human nature and why these things happen. The Evil Queen in Snow White for instance was motivated by vanity, the feeling of being replaced. Then there's Magneto, though starting off as a stock evil villain, he's evolved into one of the more interesting of comic book villains, as a justified servant of all mutant-kind, a Shylock type character. Then there's Shakespere's villains. Many of them are pretty simple. Iago is basically a jerk who makes up reasons for why he's a jerk, while someone like MacBeth is a normal man lured by visions of immortality and power, pushed to it by his ambitious wife.

But what's Dar'khan's comment on life? What is he trying to say about the nature of life? That humans want power and to be better than themselves? Well no shit. What did Dar'khan think of Kael? What did Dar'khan think of Anasterian? What did he think about Sylvanas? There's really no mention of how their rivalry evolved other than that Dar'khan was unintentionally responsible for her becoming the banshee queen? There's nothing deeper there, nothing to read into.

That isn't entirely true. He's certainly simplistic in his execution, but the Sunwell Trilogy portrayal in the first manga creates the impression that he was a spellcaster who was overly impressed with his own ability, and jealously believed that those in command of Quel'thalas were hoarding the Sunwell's power to themselves when he should rightfully possess it. He's vain, greedy, jealous and arrogant. All recognizable aspects of the darker side of being human. Even in undeath he has an inflated opinion of his own importance to the Scourge beyond a lackey sent to retrieve the Sunwell's power. He actually thinks he'll be given the power once he captures it, when anyone with a clear thought in their head knows better than to expect Kel'thuzad to let some petty traitorous elf personally hold such vast power when his loyalty to the Scourge would always remain secondary to his own lust for power. More likely he'd be either rendered mindless or hammered into submission by the Lich King's will and the power would be given to somebody in the Scourge who would actually make good use of it.

Yeah, kinda basic and simple for a villain, I'll admit. But as simplistic as they are, he is given motivations for his behavior.

Kenzuki

06-15-2007, 08:12 AM

To be honest, the manga probably had it's limits. You can only fit so much story into so many pages. It's not like a novel you know.

Aldrius

06-15-2007, 10:27 AM

You don't need more than a few lines of dialog to give a character a strong motivation and purpose. I'm trying to think of an example, but I dunno.

Vicious

06-15-2007, 01:23 PM

To be honest, the manga probably had it's limits. You can only fit so much story into so many pages. It's not like a novel you know.

Yeah but you can still show a character´s motivations or personality properly in a graphic novel but they had to rush this since it was only a trilogy, they focused almost entirely on the story.

This manga would be way better if it had 5 or 6 books.

Aldrius

06-15-2007, 01:45 PM

Or if the artist and writer had been more interesting in capturing WarCraft's fast action and sharp dialog instead of "making it like a real manga!!!".

Saim

06-17-2007, 12:33 AM

Sylvanas definately needs a unique model. So does Thrall.

And Dar'Khan is the villian you love to hate. You need some of those. While you have the anti-hero like Illidan, you need the evil bastard like Dar'Kan as a contrast. I personally enjoyed killing him :evil: , which is what it's supposed to be like.

Timolas

06-17-2007, 03:03 AM

In Deatholme he is missing his trademark hat!

Creative

06-17-2007, 06:03 AM

In Deatholme he is missing his trademark hat!

The hat was the only good thing about him!