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Xilizhra
12-15-2011, 08:51 PM
There've been many people who want night elves to return to their roots as of WC3, a development I'm not against. What I'm more curious about, however, is what else they may evolve into; clearly, they can't just regress into their old states, as too much has changed. However, I believe the most important factor in their old attitudes is self-assurance, something that they ran greatly dry of after WC3, probably due to their world being basically turned upside down in various ways. Thus, I'm wondering what would lead to them getting it back.

As of now, I'm mostly curious about the developments of arcane magic, as that's the most recent night elf change that yet hasn't gotten quite as much development yet. If the night elves regained their aptitude for it, they might begin to feel that they have a more solid place in the new world, that they've adapted to it instead of just trying to cling to old ways while the roots to them decay.

Omacron
12-15-2011, 08:53 PM
Personally, now that the highborne are back, combined with cohabitation with the progressive-thinking Gilneans I'd love for the storyline started with Fandral to get revisited, with a forward thinking group demanding their immortality back thinking that it's an inalienable right.

HalfElfDragon
12-15-2011, 08:55 PM
Night elves, despairing the loss of their immortality, become a nation of depressed, drug addicted gangsters and prostitutes.

cosmictimelion
12-15-2011, 08:56 PM
Personally, now that the highborne are back, combined with cohabitation with the progressive-thinking Gilneans I'd love for the storyline started with Fandral to get revisited, with a forward thinking group demanding their immortality back thinking that it's an inalienable right.

And how would this group expect to get it back? Nozdormu's blessing was the one that gave them immortality. Pretty sure he can't do that anymore.

They gonna start suckin' on dat demon dick?

Insane Guy of Doom
12-15-2011, 08:58 PM
Also in Wolfheart it was mentioned that Malfurion asked the Aspects to never grant night elves immortality ever again, so even if Nozdormu could I doubt he would.

I wonder if this is public knowledge, if not it could be good fodder for some sort of civil war type plot for them.

Omacron
12-15-2011, 09:00 PM
And how would this group expect to get it back? Nozdormu's blessing was the one that gave them immortality. Pretty sure he can't do that anymore.

They gonna start suckin' on dat demon dick?

A few ideas off the top of my head:
1) Cybernetics (already in the setting, see: Gerenzo Wrenchwhistle, Mo'arg)
2) Cryonics (already in setting, see: Draenei)
3) Time manipulation (see: mage tree. They don't need no fuckin' bronze dragons!)
4) Alchemy/biotechnology

Xilizhra
12-15-2011, 09:00 PM
And how would this group expect to get it back? Nozdormu's blessing was the one that gave them immortality. Pretty sure he can't do that anymore.

They gonna start suckin' on dat demon dick?
It would make an interesting full circle.

Leviathon
12-15-2011, 09:00 PM
I'm sure they'll find more magical seeds that grow 5000 foot tall trees and hope one of them gives them immortality.

cosmictimelion
12-15-2011, 09:02 PM
A few ideas off the top of my head:
1) Cybernetics (already in the setting, see: Gerenzo Wrenchwhistle, Mo'arg)
2) Cryonics (already in setting, see: Draenei)
3) Time manipulation (see: mage tree. They don't need no fuckin' bronze dragons!)
4) Alchemy/biotechnology

I have a very hard time seeing the night elves, of all races, utilize any of those.

They're an old-fashioned outdoorsy race, Omacron. They will never be Space Marines.

Kellick
12-15-2011, 09:04 PM
A few ideas off the top of my head:
1) Cybernetics (already in the setting, see: Gerenzo Wrenchwhistle, Mo'arg)
2) Cryonics (already in setting, see: Draenei)
3) Time manipulation (see: mage tree. They don't need no fuckin' bronze dragons!)
4) Alchemy/biotechnology

You forgot 5)

Ancient murderin' Drakkari style.

Awww yeah.

HalfElfDragon
12-15-2011, 09:05 PM
They're an old-fashioned outdoorsy race, Omacron. They will never be Space Marines.

http://i.imgur.com/9zawd.jpg

Lord Grimtale
12-15-2011, 09:05 PM
Oh geez, this thread is going to go places...

I wouldn't mind them finding some way of being more in tune with their goddess Elune and actually making her give a rat's ass about her people instead of never making a real appearance anywhere and being handwaved as a wind chime with tits.

I have a very hard time seeing the night elves, of all races, utilize any of those.

They're an old-fashioned outdoorsy race, Omacron. They will never be Space Marines.

So cosmic, what do you propose for Night Elves that would actually be "good" for them? (This is just me being regretfully curious. :P)

Omacron
12-15-2011, 09:05 PM
I have a very hard time seeing the night elves, of all races, utilize any of those.

They're an old-fashioned outdoorsy race, Omacron. They will never be Space Marines.

Highborne and Worgen I could definitely see using it and clashing with traditionalist night elves.

HalfElfDragon
12-15-2011, 09:06 PM
Also in Wolfheart it was mentioned that Malfurion asked the Aspects to never grant night elves immortality ever again, so even if Nozdormu could I doubt he would.

I wonder if this is public knowledge, if not it could be good fodder for some sort of civil war type plot for them.


http://i.imgur.com/W65n5.jpg

Omacron
12-15-2011, 09:07 PM
http://i.imgur.com/W65n5.jpg

I love you. Let me have your offspring.

cosmictimelion
12-15-2011, 09:08 PM
Highborne and Worgen I could definitely see using it and clashing with traditionalist night elves.

I would honestly rather see the Forsaken taking these steps. I think it would make more sense and actually fit their "mad scientist" theme.


So cosmic, what do you propose for Night Elves that would actually be "good" for them? (This is just me being regretfully curious. :P)

Come to terms with their mortality via smoking copious amounts of Peacebloom.

Xilizhra
12-15-2011, 09:08 PM
I would honestly rather see the Forsaken taking these steps. I think it would make more sense and actually fit their "mad scientist" theme.
Truth be told, I'd like to see worgen take up the mad scientist mantle as well.

Mutterscrawl
12-15-2011, 09:34 PM
Biotechnology I can see, but not the others. That isn't to say "no metal" just... cyborgs seem like an EK alliance thing.

Lord Grimtale
12-15-2011, 09:36 PM
I would honestly rather see the Forsaken taking these steps. I think it would make more sense and actually fit their "mad scientist" theme.



Come to terms with their mortality via smoking copious amounts of Peacebloom.

I'd honestly say a lot of races could use some Peacebloom, the Trolls should hook a brotha up.

Crazyterran
12-15-2011, 09:45 PM
I could see Gnome... and maybe Worgen (just for the bad ass factor) cyborgs, for any Alliance race.

For the Horde... just the Forsaken

Omacron
12-15-2011, 09:49 PM
I could see Gnome... and maybe Worgen (just for the bad ass factor) cyborgs, for any Alliance race.

For the Horde... just the Forsaken

Not goblins?

Ruinshin
12-15-2011, 09:54 PM
I would like to see Night Elves split down the population in a violent manner. Have those who feel they should help the Alliance and those who view themselves as the guardians of the world start opposing riots in the streets of Darnassus.

Obviously, Tyrande would lead the pro-Alliance groups with Malfurion the pro-save the world.

Tyrande and the Night Elves and Worgen could follow down the darker aspects of Elunite worship, with sacrifice of horde invaders for increased strength and other boons in Ashenvale, while Malfurion and the Dreanei would be against it, and help the Horde either escape or attack Elunite places of worship, and they would work on merging druidism and light worship to preform great feats.

We can have Moonglade split in half, with the Sentinel Armies backed by Omen and the Druids with the aid of Cenarius or Remulos (probably the second as it makes more sense) launching attacks across the lakes, with both sides vying for favor with the local furbolg to open up trade and attack routes through the mountains.

Of course, I don't expect it to be all Sentinels vs Druids, but it would be a good thing to have a majority of a group support one side or the other just to avoid confusion.

Tyrande could task the Worgen to give Highborn a crash course on updated magical procedures, and they could start flinging spells to counter the Dreanei magics.

Have the two architecture types begin to split, with Tyrande and her group having buildings take on a much darker edge, with a heavy focus on moonbeams and such shining through, and Malfurion and his group have Light-based technology built into their trees.

Anyway, I think a civil war between the two groups of Night Elves needs to happen. Though, sadly, it would probably end up with Tyrande and her Elves being painted as the bad guys and would end in their deaths, cuz thats what blizzard does to anyone who disagrees with Malfurion.

Kadifa
12-15-2011, 10:03 PM
Night elves, despairing the loss of their immortality, become a nation of depressed, drug addicted gangsters and prostitutes.
So they naturally become Blood Elves?

I would like to see Night Elves split down the population in a violent manner. Have those who feel they should help the Alliance and those who view themselves as the guardians of the world start opposing riots in the streets of Darnassus.

Obviously, Tyrande would lead the pro-Alliance groups with Malfurion the pro-save the world.

Tyrande and the Night Elves and Worgen could follow down the darker aspects of Elunite worship, with sacrifice of horde invaders for increased strength and other boons in Ashenvale, while Malfurion and the Dreanei would be against it, and help the Horde either escape or attack Elunite places of worship, and they would work on merging druidism and light worship to preform great feats.

We can have Moonglade split in half, with the Sentinel Armies backed by Omen and the Druids with the aid of Cenarius or Remulos (probably the second as it makes more sense) launching attacks across the lakes, with both sides vying for favor with the local furbolg to open up trade and attack routes through the mountains.

Of course, I don't expect it to be all Sentinels vs Druids, but it would be a good thing to have a majority of a group support one side or the other just to avoid confusion.

Tyrande could task the Worgen to give Highborn a crash course on updated magical procedures, and they could start flinging spells to counter the Dreanei magics.

Have the two architecture types begin to split, with Tyrande and her group having buildings take on a much darker edge, with a heavy focus on moonbeams and such shining through, and Malfurion and his group have Light-based technology built into their trees.
A two-way civil war seems limiting, don't you think? I mean, won't both the Elunite and Druidic factions hate the Highborne?

Crazyterran
12-16-2011, 12:46 AM
So, the Night Elves would fight a civil war while the Horde are invading their land?

...

...

/facepalm.

HalfElfDragon
12-16-2011, 01:04 AM
So they naturally become Blood Elves?
In a way, only with cocaine instead of magic

Ruinshin
12-16-2011, 01:14 AM
A two-way civil war seems limiting, don't you think? I mean, won't both the Elunite and Druidic factions hate the Highborne?

No. Just the druidic faction. I mean the elunite one may not like them, but its not going to be a war type dislike.

AndyJP
12-16-2011, 01:21 AM
I have just always wanted them to just stay the hell away from the rest of the Alliance and be the self-sustained isolationist race of the faction. Humans are still cutting down trees and killing animals, stop being their buddies.

Avon
12-16-2011, 03:47 AM
At this point they are beyond saving short of retconning all of WoW from existence.

Ku'ja
12-16-2011, 03:51 AM
There is a last Vial !

I am sure that if a group of Night Elves wanted immortality back they could find a way... they could search for Titan artifacts that could do such a thing.

reader of truths
12-16-2011, 04:15 AM
aww, i thought this thread would be about the night elves going back to their dark troll roots to fight the horde:(

Ku'ja
12-16-2011, 04:23 AM
aww, i thought this thread would be about the night elves going back to their dark troll roots to fight the horde:(

I am sure the last we saw of the Dark Trolls was aiding the Night Elves, Horde and Jaina against the Legion :D.

Omacron
12-16-2011, 10:30 AM
I have just always wanted them to just stay the hell away from the rest of the Alliance and be the self-sustained isolationist race of the faction. Humans are still cutting down trees and killing animals, stop being their buddies.

Night elves don't care about trees in general being cut down, only THEIR specific trees. THEIR trees have spirits in them that they're sworn to protect- the same doesn't go for trees in, say, Elwynn.

They also don't give a fuck if people kill animals. FFS one of their iconic classes is the "huntress", meaning "Someone who tracks down and kills animals", and according to the now noncanon RPG their diet consists primarily of wild game.

Avon
12-16-2011, 10:32 AM
Yeah but the idea of farming and domesticating animals must be disgusting to them.

Omacron
12-16-2011, 10:51 AM
Yeah but the idea of farming and domesticating animals must be disgusting to them.

They have domesticated nightsabers and they make cheese so presumably they have some form of domesticated dairy animal offscreen.

Avon
12-16-2011, 11:05 AM
Or they milk the Nightsabers. Anyway they haven't really domesticated them at least not to the level humans have with their animals.

Omacron
12-16-2011, 11:09 AM
Or they milk the Nightsabers. Anyway they haven't really domesticated them at least not to the level humans have with their animals.
They sell them, don't they? When they're docile enough to be sold as a consumer good I'd say they're domesticated.

Avon
12-16-2011, 11:10 AM
Game Mechanics.:D

AndyJP
12-16-2011, 12:16 PM
Night elves don't care about trees in general being cut down, only THEIR specific trees. THEIR trees have spirits in them that they're sworn to protect- the same doesn't go for trees in, say, Elwynn.

Why do you think this is true? I am pretty certain that they care about every tree and plant. One of the first things Malfurion did when they got to Lordaeron was commune with the spirits there.

They also don't give a fuck if people kill animals. FFS one of their iconic classes is the "huntress", meaning "Someone who tracks down and kills animals", and according to the now noncanon RPG their diet consists primarily of wild game.

The huntress is one of their primary soldiers, so I don't think it's likely they are just hunters in the same way that Nesingwary is a hunter that got plucked out of rabbit season. In the same way, Rangers are also soldiers and not hunters.

GenyaArikado
12-16-2011, 12:21 PM
Why do you think this is true? I am pretty certain that they care about every tree and plant. One of the first things Malfurion did when they got to Lordaeron was commune with the spirits there.



The huntress is one of their primary soldiers, so I don't think it's likely they are just hunters in the same way that Nesingwary is a hunter that got plucked out of rabbit season. In the same way, Rangers are also soldiers and not hunters.

Well its more like they care but they arent stupid. The only ones who can extract material without harming the forest are their wisps. Also their forest are the home of ancients and demigod and his family.

Omacron
12-16-2011, 12:57 PM
Just because Malfurion communed with the spirits of Lordaeron doesn't mean he is sworn to protect them. And as soon as I get home I'm sure I can find examples of might elves eating meat. Hell, I'm pretty sure they mount animal heads in inns. And bear in mind guy night elves have gannets and leather workers, you gotta kill animals to get leather.

Kadifa
12-16-2011, 01:29 PM
So, how bout that military force parallel to the Sentinels?

Ashendant
12-16-2011, 01:49 PM
Just because Malfurion communed with the spirits of Lordaeron doesn't mean he is sworn to protect them. And as soon as I get home I'm sure I can find examples of might elves eating meat. Hell, I'm pretty sure they mount animal heads in inns. And bear in mind guy night elves have gannets and leather workers, you gotta kill animals to get leather.

They eat spider kaboobs too

EDIT: and darnassus guards eat ribs

Mutterscrawl
12-16-2011, 03:13 PM
Night Elves in the future ought to have a three way political system between the Church, the Highborne, and the Druids, with the watchers being a sort of swing vote group.

Biologically I see the Nelfs diverging a tad, all with a degree of foliage growing as part of their bodies, but families with strong ties to Elune get silvery coloration, Highborne groups getting a few arcane crystals in the style of an arcane ancient, and druidic families getting more and more animal traits. Watchers have the fewest of these, and tend more towards the same types of thorny black growths that Druidic Gilneans get.

Politically, I'm thinking the Highborne are the least powerful, composed of the youngest generation that was never immortal, and feels a bit cheated growing up and hearing about how mighty their race was. They're rebellious youths just barely led by a few actual Highborne that have their hands full making sure they don't do something stupid with their arcane magic. They have alot of support among the Draenei who are more willing to put up with their shenanigans, and the gnomes, since they experiment quite a bit and are the only real subset of nelfs interested in tech.

The Elune branch is likely still going to be in control, with the Druids moderating a growing dogmatic influence (should Tyrande and Malfurion ever step down from power of course, since it's implied Tyrande avoids using her full authority to avoid being like azshara)

The wardens essentially flipflop between the druids and the Moon Priestesses (technically a male can be high priest but I see it as being something like a male president, it'll be awhile before it happens), depending on who has more authority, generally resting with the Moon Priestesses, and moderating the Highborne's influence.

Militarily the Sentinels are still the mainstay, but there's more integration with the druids, and the Highborne are always moved into the field with wardens watching them, typically in foreign battles where they can't do as much damage should they ever go out of control, and because politically people like them far away.

Gilnean and Draenic influences have brought in a bit more tech though, which resulted in traditionalist movements also playing up more active use of Elune's power and aggressive druidism.

Culturally I see going into the sisterhood of Elune as being akin to learning to be a doctor or lawyer, while Druids start to lose a bit of their prestige as politics wear on with them, assuming the Horde remains a borderline hostile nation even after MoP, neutrality would wear thin and the message of peace and love most druids have would lose its luster.

Still, being a druid is a 'respectable' job, as oppossed to going abroad as a merchant or a member of the Highborne's Moonguard, which is met with anything ranging from looks of backpacking through Europe or "It's a phase" to the Night Elven equivalent of announcing you're gay. (which I'm guessing they don't -really- have what with the whole Long vigil having little to no men and all.)

Joining the Wardens is sort of like becoming a sniper or joining the CIA I'd assume, it's less often that you join it, than it recruits those with the skills and mindset necessary.


In short, I don't see any "civil war" developing, maybe a few riots as the Highborne grow in power, mostly by older elves who feel threatened by their return, and young non-highborne sympathizers that are dissatisfied with traditional leadership, but nothing major.

Kadifa
12-16-2011, 03:57 PM
I always figured that Watchers would be more concerned with enforcing the laws, rather than getting caught up in politics.

Omacron
12-16-2011, 05:19 PM
I always figured that Watchers would be more concerned with enforcing the laws, rather than getting caught up in politics.

The watchers are a secret police in the employ of the Church I believe (or am I conflating the Watchers and Wardens again)?

Mutterscrawl
12-16-2011, 05:46 PM
The watchers are a secret police in the employ of the Church I believe (or am I conflating the Watchers and Wardens again)?

I know I am, I'd forgotten until you brought it up that they were different.

Faine
12-16-2011, 06:56 PM
The watchers are a secret police in the employ of the Church I believe (or am I conflating the Watchers and Wardens again)?

If I remember correctly, the Watchers are the larger group and Wardens are basically the elite rank of the Watchers. (Maiev comes to mind.)

Slywyn
12-16-2011, 07:51 PM
This could all be fixed with a swift kick to Tyrande's ass.

Preferably through Malfurion's fucking death.

GenyaArikado
12-16-2011, 08:10 PM
This could all be fixed with a swift kick to Tyrande's ass.

Preferably through Malfurion's fucking death.

Make Garrosh disrespect Elune, like insult her. WC3 Tyrande is gonna look like a barbie in comparison

Genesis
12-16-2011, 08:10 PM
Maybe Garrosh should suggest to Tyrande that Elune is a naaru. :P

GenyaArikado
12-16-2011, 08:14 PM
Maybe Garrosh should suggest to Tyrande that Elune is a naaru. :P

No, thats not enough, I mean insult her like talk shit about her, maybe a YO MOMMA.

HalfElfDragon
12-16-2011, 08:39 PM
Hey Tyrande, yo mamma's so old she's never even been mentioned!

GenyaArikado
12-16-2011, 08:44 PM
Hey Tyrande, yo mamma's so old she's never even been mentioned!

I didnt mean her actual mom. I meant MOTHA MOON.

Leviathon
12-16-2011, 08:45 PM
I wonder how many rulers the night elves had before Azshara or if Azshara was their only one.

GenyaArikado
12-16-2011, 08:50 PM
I wonder how many rulers the night elves had before Azshara or if Azshara was their only one.

Zin-Azshari was renamed to that so there must have been someone before her, the question would be how the fuck did their system work before her.

On the other hand i dont think that whoever ruled before didnt live in the Eternal Palace, i think it was made for her

HalfElfDragon
12-16-2011, 08:51 PM
I didnt mean her actual mom. I meant MOTHA MOON.

MOTHRA MOON.

Genesis
12-16-2011, 09:13 PM
No, thats not enough, I mean insult her like talk shit about her, maybe a YO MOMMA.She came within inches of beating Velen to death about Elune being a naaru. Do you think she would dare to show that much 'friendly' restrain with Garrosh?

GenyaArikado
12-16-2011, 09:36 PM
She came within inches of beating Velen to death about Elune being a naaru. Do you think she would dare to show that much 'friendly' restrain with Garrosh?

No, thats the point. I want apeshit!Tyrande ripping Garrosh head a la Kratos and Helios in God of War 3

Genesis
12-16-2011, 09:44 PM
No, thats the point. I want apeshit!Tyrande ripping Garrosh head a la Kratos and Helios in God of War 3Yes, and that's what I'm saying. You would get all the apeshit you could possibly want from the "Elune = a naaru" thing. :sweatdrop

Leviathon
12-16-2011, 09:44 PM
She came within inches of beating Velen to death about Elune being a naaru. Do you think she would dare to show that much 'friendly' restrain with Garrosh?

Not sure how you got that from 2 sentences. Course I've seen that tiny little thing expanded into much more so many times now I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

AndyJP
12-16-2011, 10:39 PM
Just because Malfurion communed with the spirits of Lordaeron doesn't mean he is sworn to protect them.

Dumb logic there. I don't think Furion would ever say "I love all of my Kalimdor homies, but fuck the east side!"

And as soon as I get home I'm sure I can find examples of might elves eating meat. Hell, I'm pretty sure they mount animal heads in inns. And bear in mind guy night elves have gannets and leather workers, you gotta kill animals to get leather.

They clearly have leather workers since even the druids wear leather, and I would also assume they are meat eaters because they have very prominent fangs. Unless their wisps can also harvest animals without causing harm to them, I think that they hunt, as well.

You read too much into "they like animals". I like animals too, but I also eat meat and buy animal products. With at least the druids being in such harmony with nature (seems like a dominate part of the society), I would think that they're not sport hunters. Most of their quests involving killing wildlife reflects a remorse for having to put down the animals, and the desire to maintain a balanced ecosystem. Night Elves are said to have an empathic bond with animal life, with the animals being allies or partners rather than pets or (how I would presume they would see it) slaves. It seems like the Gryphons are treated with a lot of respect, especially by the Wildhammer... but if WoW Humans are supposed to resemble real Humans then I would presume this treatment isn't extended universally to all animals.

I haven't seen any indication that they are replacing peasants with wisps yet, which always had me confused. If I wanted to learn anything from the Night Elves, I would certainly wish to learn how to gather an infinite supply of lumber from a single source and use the wisps to construct buildings, however that is meant to work.

Leviathon
12-16-2011, 10:56 PM
Has the whole wisp lumber thing even been mentioned outside Warcraft 3?

Mutterscrawl
12-16-2011, 11:21 PM
Has the whole wisp lumber thing even been mentioned outside Warcraft 3?

Just in a generic "gather resources without damaging the land" way.

In Feralas.

By goblins and worgen.

Genesis
12-16-2011, 11:38 PM
Just in a generic "gather resources without damaging the land" way.

In Feralas.

By goblins and worgen.Felwood? :raisedbro

Ruinshin
12-16-2011, 11:42 PM
She came within inches of beating Velen to death about Elune being a naaru. Do you think she would dare to show that much 'friendly' restrain with Garrosh?

Somewhat of an exaggeration >.>

Genesis
12-17-2011, 12:12 AM
Somewhat of an exaggeration >.>Only because you did not personally see her death glare. :glare:

HalfElfDragon
12-17-2011, 12:17 AM
Only because you did not personally see her death glare. :glare:

And you did?

Leviathon
12-17-2011, 12:40 AM
And you did?

He's the night elf Xil!

Genesis
12-17-2011, 02:53 AM
And you did?Of course not, silly. The game itself can only go so far to recreate the actual lore.

He's the night elf Xil!:P

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 03:11 AM
I was just writing elsewhere, I feel Elune has been too infallible as of late. This is because responsive deities who converse with the living is one of those fantasy tropes that seriously annoys me, but everyone else with godlike power in this universe has been corrupted or done something a bit out of order in a way that made a situation worse. Except Elune. Screw that, give the night elves some more tragedy and some war crimes, please. The whole "victimized hippies with the only Absolute Big Good left in the world" thing isn't enjoyable.

Has the whole wisp lumber thing even been mentioned outside Warcraft 3?

A little, but a lot more has been written about how night elf structures are actually made, and it's so different from every other races that there's pretty much no chance that wisps would produce practical lumber by their techniques.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 05:11 AM
I was just writing elsewhere, I feel Elune has been too infallible as of late. This is because responsive deities who converse with the living is one of those fantasy tropes that seriously annoys me, but everyone else with godlike power in this universe has been corrupted or done something a bit out of order in a way that made a situation worse. Except Elune. Screw that, give the night elves some more tragedy and some war crimes, please. The whole "victimized hippies with the only Absolute Big Good left in the world" thing isn't enjoyable.
They did commit war crimes back in WC3, though that could be repeated.

This could all be fixed with a swift kick to Tyrande's ass.

Preferably through Malfurion's fucking death.
Malfurion's one of the best things about the night elf people.

Stackattack
12-17-2011, 05:32 AM
Malfurion's one of the best things about the night elf people.

malfurion is fucking retarded, in more ways than one. he's like ronin, only a night elf and dumber. and a hippie.

Lord Grimtale
12-17-2011, 06:38 AM
malfurion is fucking retarded, in more ways than one. he's like ronin, only a night elf and dumber. and a hippie.

Pretty much. The only thing I can really think that Malfurion actually did for the Night Elves was open them up to Druidism. Everything else he's been just as helpful as Illidan has. (Which is to say... not a lot.)

Case in point? He exiled the same Highborne that eventually joined back with the Night Elves and were actually of great use in the War of the Ancients, he's banned the Worgen form despite the Gilneans being able to master it, he thought Teldrassil was a bad idea only to come up pleasantly surprised that it actually managed to survive corruption.

I mean what HAS he done for Night Elves specifically? At least Thrall, who had a very neutral mindset, attributed a lot to helping the Orcs by freeing them from captivity. But Malfurion? I can't really pinpoint much he's done that's benefited the Kaldorei as a whole.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 06:39 AM
Malfurion's one of the best things about the night elf people.

Lolwat.

No.

Fuck no.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 06:40 AM
I mean what HAS he done for Night Elves specifically? At least Thrall, who had a very neutral mindset, attributed a lot to helping the Orcs by freeing them from captivity. But Malfurion? I can't really pinpoint much he's done that's benefited the Kaldorei as a whole.
Well, he's been instrumental in saving the world three, or possibly four times. I'd say that's enough of a benefit.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 07:05 AM
Well, he's been instrumental in saving the world three, or possibly four times. I'd say that's enough of a benefit.

He's been good to the world, but he's a piece of complete piece of useless shit to his own people.

Royalpimp
12-17-2011, 07:18 AM
He's been good to the world, but he's a piece of complete piece of useless shit to his own people.

By saving the world, he also saved the night elves.

I think some of you are letting your dislike for him cloud your mind.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 07:31 AM
He's been good to the world, but he's a piece of complete piece of useless shit to his own people.
His people wouldn't have much without a world.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 07:40 AM
By saving the world, he also saved the night elves.

I think some of you are letting your dislike for him cloud your mind.

Which is a bullshit argument..

He isn't saving the world for his people. He is saving it for nature.

The Night Elves may benefit from it, but so do the Satyr, Scourge, Old Gods, Burning Legion remnants, Twilights Hammer, Cult of the Damned, Gnolls, Horde, ect..

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 07:46 AM
Which is a bullshit argument..

He isn't saving the world for his people. He is saving it for nature.

The Night Elves may benefit from it, but so do the Satyr, Scourge, Old Gods, Burning Legion remnants, Twilights Hammer, Cult of the Damned, Gnolls, Horde, ect..
Irrelevant. The night elves still benefit greatly.

Lord Grimtale
12-17-2011, 07:56 AM
Well, he's been instrumental in saving the world three, or possibly four times. I'd say that's enough of a benefit.

A lot of characters have saved the world multiple times. Do you think they had Night Elves in mind when they did so?

You pretty much just proved that Malfurion is your typical do-gooder character, which is boring to make for a main character of the Night Elves.

Cemotucu
12-17-2011, 07:57 AM
Which is a bullshit argument..

He isn't saving the world for his people. He is saving it for nature.

The Night Elves may benefit from it, but so do the Satyr, Scourge, Old Gods, Burning Legion remnants, Twilights Hammer, Cult of the Damned, Gnolls, Horde, ect..

Yours is also bullshit. If he didn't save the world, his own people wouldn't exist. So what is the point?

He knew that if he ravaged the Horde invasion in Ashenvale, the Horde wouldn't help them in Hyjal.

Royalpimp
12-17-2011, 07:57 AM
Which is a bullshit argument..

He isn't saving the world for his people. He is saving it for nature.

The Night Elves may benefit from it, but so do the Satyr, Scourge, Old Gods, Burning Legion remnants, Twilights Hammer, Cult of the Damned, Gnolls, Horde, ect..

I don't think you can say he doesn't do it for his people too, even a little, he's not completely indiferent to his people.

And what does it matter, he still saved his people plenty of times.

Lord Grimtale
12-17-2011, 08:01 AM
Yours is also bullshit. If he didn't save the world, his own people wouldn't exist. So what is the point?

He knew that if he ravaged the Horde invasion in Ashenvale, the Horde wouldn't help them in Hyjal.

For once, I'd like to see a story arc where the Horde isn't absolutely needed to save the world and they can have their own stories separate from Alliance thematic zones like Hyjal.

Cemotucu
12-17-2011, 08:05 AM
For once, I'd like to see a story arc where the Horde isn't absolutely needed to save the world and they can have their own stories separate from Alliance thematic zones like Hyjal.

That would be great. Sadly this is not the case of Cataclysm. We could hope that they change that in Mists of Pandaria or another future expansion.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 08:07 AM
Yours is also bullshit. If he didn't save the world, his own people wouldn't exist. So what is the point?

He knew that if he ravaged the Horde invasion in Ashenvale, the Horde wouldn't help them in Hyjal.

Dead by fire or axe, it doesn't really matter. Dead is dead. His priority has always been nature first, his people second.

And thats a second good point..

It's ok for his own people to die, but the enemy? He might need their help in the future! It's silly.

Lord Grimtale
12-17-2011, 08:25 AM
You know, this also makes me wonder. If Malfurion has been the best thing the Night Elves have ever had solely because he saved the world, does that mean someone like Varian Wrynn could count along those lines as well?

Think about it for a moment:

In Stormrage he pretty much saved the world by rallying Orcish grunts and other Horde soldiers.
He's openly expressed concern for the Kaldorei, and they're pretty much fine in Ashenvale because he lent support in places like Stonetalon and the Barrens to flank the Horde.
He's also the reason the Night Elves even still have Ashenvale as their home.

I hate the idea that it's Varian, it should be someone like Tyrande, but going along these lines he's been about as good to the Night Elves as Malfurion has. (Probably twice more.)

More on that note, does this mean Thrall and Jaina have also been the best thing? Or any other world-saving character? World-saving characters are the best thing for everybody, but we're not talking about everybody, we're talking solely about the Night Elves. (A better example would be Thrall being the best thing that's ever happened to the Orcs, that can be argued because he saved the Orcs from their internment camps and kept their past culture intact.)

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 08:32 AM
I just realized that Tyrande and Azshara have almost the same body model, the only diference is that Tyrande has a diferent upper lip, and that was probably made editing the texture only. And a fuller face

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 08:35 AM
I just realized that Tyrande and Azshara have the same body model, the only diference is that Tyrande has a diferent upper lip, and that was probably made editing the texture only.

I still think that Tyrande should step up as Queen of the Night Elves.

Avon
12-17-2011, 08:39 AM
What difference would giving her the title of queen make?

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 08:41 AM
Oh and diferent eyebrows to make her look angry and maybe more wild (they arent brushed as Azshara's. Ignoring the beehive Tyrande also has pretty much the same hairstyle.

I hope this means two things. 1- Eventual battle with Azshara that involves her fighting in her night elf form 2- Tyrande will take a part in said battle


What difference would giving her the title of queen make?

Nothing, she does the exact job, but literally the reason is because she is afraid of the title

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 08:49 AM
What difference would giving her the title of queen make?

The difference is right now the Night Elves WANT to worship Tyrande, but she keeps telling them no. One of the reasons the Night Elves fought so hard in WotA is because they had something to fight for in saving Azshara, and then it was personal when they were betrayed.

As is, they can't follow what they want to do with Tyrande without her scolding them, which kind of throws them off on how they want to act.

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 08:54 AM
And Tyrande unlike Azshara has people to bring her down to earth if she gets to Azshara-like.


On the other hand who knows if Azshara had them too

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 08:58 AM
For once, I'd like to see a story arc where the Horde isn't absolutely needed to save the world and they can have their own stories separate from Alliance thematic zones like Hyjal.
This would only work if the Alliance was also not absolutely needed to save the world sometimes.

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 09:03 AM
This would only work if the Alliance was also not absolutely needed to save the world sometimes.

Why? would differing plots be so terrible?

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 09:04 AM
Why? would differing plots be so terrible?
Because making one faction more important than the other would be a bell of doom.

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 09:06 AM
Because making one faction more important than the other would be a bell of doom.

The Horde can not save the world and still do something important and interesting.

Fojar
12-17-2011, 09:08 AM
This would only work if the Alliance was also not absolutely needed to save the world sometimes.

We call that "Cataclysm."

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 09:09 AM
The Horde can not save the world and still do something important and interesting.

Like destroy Theramore

We call that "Cataclysm."

Malfurion and Hyjal say hi

Fojar
12-17-2011, 09:14 AM
Malfurion and Hyjal say hi

Malfurion and Hyjal was Alliance? Could've fooled me, I saw a shit-ton of Tauren there.

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 09:16 AM
Malfurion and Hyjal was Alliance? Could've fooled me, I saw a shit-ton of Tauren there.

He was there. So alliance was needed

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 09:17 AM
Malfurion and Hyjal was Alliance? Could've fooled me, I saw a shit-ton of Tauren there.

It was -vastly- more alliance than horde, but yes, both were present.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 09:19 AM
He was there. So alliance was needed

Yes, Alliance was needed. We know for a fact that the Guardians of Hyjal are using Darnassian resources.

The Wardens, Jarod, even Tyrande.

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 09:21 AM
Yes, Alliance was needed. We know for a fact that the Guardians of Hyjal are using Darnassian resources.

The Wardens, Jarod, even Tyrande.

Yep

Cemotucu
12-17-2011, 09:33 AM
Dead by fire or axe, it doesn't really matter. Dead is dead. His priority has always been nature first, his people second.

And thats a second good point..

It's ok for his own people to die, but the enemy? He might need their help in the future! It's silly.

It's not silly at all. If Ragnaros would have been fully release, and burned the World Tree, Azeroth and the night elves as a race will be exctinct. I think it's not that hard to understand.

I'm not saying he is completely right doing that, but you can't deny that is logic. If he only protect his people in a direct way, the effort won't matter, because Ragnaros will fuck everyone.

He literally sacrificed a number of kaldorei, half of Ashenvale's forest and the life of allied forces for a greater good, the world. It's very machiavelic. I would love to know the inner fight in his mind (if it exists at all, of course).

PS: Sorry for the possible bad spelling or grammar. English it's not my mother language.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 09:36 AM
Irrelevant. The night elves still benefit greatly.

That's retarded.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 09:36 AM
That's retarded.
Actual reasons why are always a pleasure.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 09:38 AM
malfurion is fucking retarded, in more ways than one. he's like ronin, only a night elf and dumber. and a hippie.

Malfurion's pretty much the only guy who is acting on something other than the voice of the fucking moon. I probably like him because compared to Tyrande and the women he's practically agnostic, but the other night elves are absolutely certain they must be right because they serve Elune so it must be so.

Malfurion seems like the only one who is willing to admit when he's wrong (and he's made quite a lot of errors to say so.) The others will insist they MUST be right.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 09:41 AM
Malfurion's pretty much the only guy who is acting on something other than the voice of the fucking moon. I probably like him because compared to Tyrande and the women he's practically agnostic, but the other night elves are absolutely certain they must be right because they serve Elune so it must be so.

Malfurion seems like the only one who is willing to admit when he's wrong (and he's made quite a lot of errors to say so.) The others will insist they MUST be right.

I think people need to stop comparing a game religion to ours. The have direct interaction with their goddess.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 09:47 AM
The problem then is that the goddess is presently infallible. I realize I gripe about two-way communication with gods, but I'm okay with it if it had it's faults like every other cosmic power we've had here.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 09:48 AM
The problem then is that the goddess is presently infallible. I realize I gripe about two-way communication with gods, but I'm okay with it if it had it's faults like every other cosmic power we've had here.

Stormrage. Read it. She gives Tyrande a vision to save malfurion and nearly ruins everything

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 09:54 AM
Actual reasons why are always a pleasure.

They should be obvious.

I shouldn't have to sink down to your level to explain simple truths to you.

The fact that you're even questioning the rampant stupidity of that statement says more about yourself than you can ever know.

The fact that Malfurion has done more harm to the Night Elves than almost any other enemy they've ever faced shouldn't be a question. It should be a statement thrown in his face every time he opens his stupid fucking mouth.

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 09:57 AM
They should be obvious.

I shouldn't have to sink down to your level to explain simple truths to you.

The fact that you're even questioning the rampant stupidity of that statement says more about yourself than you can ever know.

The fact that Malfurion has done more harm to the Night Elves than almost any other enemy they've ever faced shouldn't be a question. It should be a statement thrown in his face every time he opens his stupid fucking mouth.

Sly, I know its not exactly my place, but that was -way- the fuck out of line.
I'm no fan of Xil's either but really.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 10:03 AM
Sly, I know its not exactly my place, but that was -way- the fuck out of line.
I'm no fan of Xil's either but really.

I'm tired of the cluelessness.

"Everyone else sucks but Forsaken ftw! Kekekeke!!"

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 10:07 AM
I'm tired of the cluelessness.

"Everyone else sucks but Forsaken ftw! Kekekeke!!"

Most of her/his/its? arguments have been no less insufferable than anyone else's focus, be it Night Elves or Lordaeron or my various mania's.

Xil could certainly stand to be a little more tactful but that's no reason to get worked up and make an ass of yourself too.

Royalpimp
12-17-2011, 10:08 AM
They should be obvious.

I shouldn't have to sink down to your level to explain simple truths to you.

The fact that you're even questioning the rampant stupidity of that statement says more about yourself than you can ever know.

The fact that Malfurion has done more harm to the Night Elves than almost any other enemy they've ever faced shouldn't be a question. It should be a statement thrown in his face every time he opens his stupid fucking mouth.

High horse. Get off it:P

Besides, what exactly did Malfurion do that was worse than anything any other enemy do? Maybe my memory needs refreshing but I think you're greatly exagerating.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 10:16 AM
Most of her/his/its? arguments have been no less insufferable than anyone else's focus, be it Night Elves or Lordaeron or my various mania's.

Xil could certainly stand to be a little more tactful but that's no reason to get worked up and make an ass of yourself too.

Believe it or not I think it's fun.

High horse. Get off it

Besides, what exactly did Malfurion do that was worse than anything any other enemy do? Maybe my memory needs refreshing but I think you're greatly exagerating.

Let's see. Removing their immortality. Denying giving it back. Getting rid of Illidan and potentially being the reason for both Illidan and Maeiv's deaths. Turning Tyrande into a half-useless housewife. Giving over Night Elf lands due to neutrality, standing by and letting countless elves die.

I can keep going.

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 10:17 AM
High horse. Get off it:P

Besides, what exactly did Malfurion do that was worse than anything any other enemy do? Maybe my memory needs refreshing but I think you're greatly exagerating.

Malfurion unlike the enemy is a Night elf racial leader

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 10:20 AM
Believe it or not I think it's fun.



Let's see. Removing their immortality.

Denying giving it back.

Getting rid of Illidan and potentially being the reason for both Illidan and Maeiv's deaths.

Turning Tyrande into a half-useless housewife.

Giving over Night Elf lands due to neutrality,

standing by and letting countless elves die.

I can keep going.

1. Necessary

2. Plot stupidity, a fair call.

3. The first time it was reasonable. Second time, he was going to outland, he was not going to be an issue anymore, Maiev is not unreasonable for chasing him though, she was a bit more genre savy.

Maiev's attempts to kill him were kind of stupid though, both from a literary and personal standpoint.

4. He didn't really do this, the writers did.

5. Where was this?

6. Yes he should be more active, but he is kind of busy with Darkshore and Hyjal,, I can't blame him for not acting, I agree he should be FAR more vocal about his dislike of what the Horde's doing though.

Leviathon
12-17-2011, 10:22 AM
I don't think I could put enough facepalms here.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 10:28 AM
He was willing to let his mates adopted daughter die.

That right there makes me dislike the fuck.

Royalpimp
12-17-2011, 10:33 AM
Let's see.

Removing their immortality.

Denying giving it back.

Getting rid of Illidan and potentially being the reason for both Illidan and Maeiv's deaths.

Turning Tyrande into a half-useless housewife.

Giving over Night Elf lands due to neutrality, standing by and letting countless elves die.

I can keep going.


1. He didn't really have a choice in that. If he didn't then they would all have died within a week anyway.

2. Fair enough.

3. How is getting rid of Illidan harmful to the night elves? He was a a selfish loose canon who was indirectly the cause of the Legion coming back. Him killing Tichondrius doesn't make him somebody safe to be around, especially when he turned into a half demon for that.
Maiev running after Illidan against her superiors' orders was her own choice and arguably not a very smart one.

4. That's Knaak's doing.

5. When did he give over night elf lands? And he can't really do anything about saving his people from the Horde because he's busy helping save the world so they at least have something to defend from the Horde.

He may have done some blunders(like any character should) but calling him worse than any of the night elves' enemies is irrational.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 10:33 AM
He was willing to let his mates adopted daughter die.

That right there makes me dislike the fuck.
Personal isn't the same as important.

Yes, he screwed that up once or twice in regards with Tyrande. That's an admissible flaw.

Stackattack
12-17-2011, 10:34 AM
Malfurion's pretty much the only guy who is acting on something other than the voice of the fucking moon. I probably like him because compared to Tyrande and the women he's practically agnostic, but the other night elves are absolutely certain they must be right because they serve Elune so it must be so.

Malfurion seems like the only one who is willing to admit when he's wrong (and he's made quite a lot of errors to say so.) The others will insist they MUST be right.

problem with malfurion is, he's acting like a leader of unified horde and alliance forces, instead of as alliance hero. i understand that need to work togeather sometimes is present, but he's "working togeather" when it's not necessary, aswell as when horde is running rampant trough night elven lands. he pretty much could stop the invasion of ashenvale, if he so wished. yet, he doesnt. the same horde that's killing elves all trough their homeland, is greeted in hyjal. and then they go somewhere else and kill more elves. it's stupid.

then again, i don't like tyrande aswell. however, she's more of a classical night elven character than malfurion. malfurion is a tree-hugger that cares more about trees than his own people. and he's proven it many, many times. alliance would be better off just giving him to a neutral faction somewhere, atleast then they'd know where they stand.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 10:36 AM
he pretty much could stop the invasion of ashenvale, if he so wished. yet, he doesnt.
All he could do is destroy relations with the Horde, splinter the Circle, and make the remainder of the Circle a target.

the same horde that's killing elves all trough their homeland, is greeted in hyjal. and then they go somewhere else and kill more elves. it's stupid.
The Horde is necessary, the war stupid.

then again, i don't like tyrande aswell. however, she's more of a classical night elven character than malfurion. malfurion is a tree-hugger that cares more about trees than his own people. and he's proven it many, many times. alliance would be better off just giving him to a neutral faction somewhere, atleast then they'd know where they stand.
If by "trees" you mean "the entire planet."

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 10:37 AM
Personal isn't the same as important.

Yes, he screwed that up once or twice in regards with Tyrande. That's an admissible flaw.

If he allowed that to his lifemate, then what hope have the people that arent actually related to him *coughLeyaracough*

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 10:41 AM
Personal isn't the same as important.

Yes, he screwed that up once or twice in regards with Tyrande. That's an admissible flaw.

he also over reacts to everything, is a rude jack ass, and needs to be punched in the mouth and he constantly over steps his authority. Of course, Blizzard fixed that complaint by making him an actual leader.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 10:41 AM
If he allowed that to his lifemate, then what hope have the people that arent actually related to him *coughLeyaracough*
Yes, because trying to burn down the world because the Horde isn't being attacked quickly enough is a wonderful means of discourse.

Stackattack
12-17-2011, 10:42 AM
All he could do is destroy relations with the Horde, splinter the Circle, and make the remainder of the Circle a target.

and the horde invasion of alliance isn't destroying it's "relations" with alliance? lolwat?


The Horde is necessary, the war stupid.
tell that to garfish and most of the horde that supports him. including forsaken


If by "trees" you mean "the entire planet."

look, alliance and horde are at war. if shit went down in the center of orgrimmar (volcano, whatever else), i don't expect thrall/garfish or anyone else to invite elves to help them deal with the problem. and for elves to respond to the call for aid. but that's just stupid writing, and not really malfurion's fault.

what he DOES need however, is to be more vocal about horde, and he needs to dislike them for what they're doing. he needs to barely tolerate them around him, and make note that he's doing it ONLY cuz the world is in danger, and that they can expect to be hunted the moment they leave sanctuary zones. that alone would be a move in the right direction.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 10:45 AM
I think it was Blizzard (though it may have been the fans) who said they won't do that because it makes players feel bad.

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 10:51 AM
Yes, because trying to burn down the world because the Horde isn't being attacked quickly enough is a wonderful means of discourse.

You do realize that she became a druid a flame after the horde attacked and begged for help right?

AndyJP
12-17-2011, 11:13 AM
I like Malfurion. I never realized he was so hated here.

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 11:21 AM
You do realize that she became a druid a flame after the horde attacked and begged for help right?

We don't know her plea for help reached him, or that she even really sent one, she just says Staghelm wouldn't have let it happen.

Faine
12-17-2011, 11:23 AM
I like Malfurion. I never realized he was so hated here.

I'm...currently neutral on Malfurion. I would actually like him more if he wasn't such a stiff and showed some sense of personality.

Leviathon
12-17-2011, 11:24 AM
We don't know her plea for help reached him, or that she even really sent one, she just says Staghelm wouldn't have let it happen.

I almost feel like her character was added solely to mock the people like those in this thread.

Faine
12-17-2011, 11:26 AM
I almost feel like her character was added solely to mock the people like those in this thread.

I wouldn't put it past Blizz. They've put in NPC's to mock certain parts of the fanbase before. (Hell, look no further than Orkus, Johnny Awesome, and Dumass.)

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 11:28 AM
I almost feel like her character was added solely to mock the people like those in this thread.

They're not that clever.

They're blatant when they mock us.

("That's Not Canon!" Achievement)

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 11:32 AM
I almost feel like her character was added solely to mock the people like those in this thread.

BLIZZFURION Y U NO ANSWER FANANOYARA PLEA?

Sarahmoo
12-17-2011, 11:33 AM
They're not that clever.

They're blatant when they mock us.

("That's Not Canon!" Achievement)

Nah, that was funny.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 11:33 AM
They're not that clever.

They're blatant when they mock us.

("That's Not Canon!" Achievement)

That, and its through their own failure that Malfurion comes off the way he does, and I don't think its something they want to bring attention on, even by mocking.

Kellick
12-17-2011, 12:40 PM
They're not that clever.

They're blatant when they mock us.

("That's Not Canon!" Achievement)

I'll be honest, seeing that achievement made me chuckle.

A better unsubtle nod to the Story Forum and SoL crowd(s) might be Metzen's comment on people using the term "Mary Sue". It vindicated some posters who'd been arguing that people are using the term far too liberally. :P

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 01:08 PM
I think it was Blizzard (though it may have been the fans) who said they won't do that because it makes players feel bad.
This is the same Blizzard that makes the type of quests that leave players feeling like jerks?

The mind boggles.

They're not that clever.

They're blatant when they mock us.

("That's Not Canon!" Achievement)
If they were any more blatant, they'd make a High Elf NPC and an Undead NPC argue over certain things.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 01:13 PM
I'm pretty sure that we agree that without a change of leadership, or a retcon of most of WoW's Night Elf lore, there's no going back for them now.

For better or for worse, the Night Elves have changed. There's not really much else to be said.

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm pretty sure that we agree that without a change of leadership, or a retcon of most of WoW's Night Elf lore, there's no going back for them now.

For better or for worse, the Night Elves have changed. There's not really much else to be said.
If only they emphasized the power struggle between the Druids and the Priesthood more.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 01:23 PM
I'm pretty sure that we agree that without a change of leadership, or a retcon of most of WoW's Night Elf lore, there's no going back for them now.

For better or for worse, the Night Elves have changed. There's not really much else to be said.

Ill be honest, if they just have Tyrande stand up to malfurion we may get something

Royalpimp
12-17-2011, 01:35 PM
Ill be honest, if they just have Tyrande stand up to malfurion we may get something

Tyrande 'standing up' to Furion suggests(to my understanding) that he's somehow doing something to contain/censor her(or whatever) and I don't remember that ever happening except when he forbade her to free Illidan,at which point she 'stood up' for herself, and when he discouraged her to go rescue Shandris, when again she 'stood up' for herself and did what she wanted to.

I don't think her becoming more dynamic necessarily has to mean she starts fighting with Furion, though I'd like that to happen(I dislike him too).

Odin
12-17-2011, 01:39 PM
I'm pretty sure that we agree that without a change of leadership, or a retcon of most of WoW's Night Elf lore, there's no going back for them now.

New leadership like ,,High king " ? :vile:
But you are right,they need new leadership .
Whatever Tyrande do in the future,I can no longer take that character seriously after ,,Seeds of faith " and ,,Wolfheart"

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 01:41 PM
New leadership like ,,High king " ? :vile:
But you are right,they need new leadership .
Whatever Tyrande do in the future,I can no longer take that character seriously after ,,Seeds of faith " and ,,Wolfheart"

Why? She wasn't bad in any of them, she just once again got overshadowed by Malfurion.

As for Tyrande standing up to Malfurion, She always looks the other way when he oversteps his bounds. That, and the whole "HUSH, TYRANDE" thing.. Its horrible

Odin
12-17-2011, 01:58 PM
Why? She wasn't bad in any of them, she just once again got overshadowed by Malfurion.

As for Tyrande standing up to Malfurion, She always looks the other way when he oversteps his bounds. That, and the whole "HUSH, TYRANDE" thing.. Its horrible
She was horrible boring character before ,,Seeds of Faith" in Knaak books,so the short story was just ,,yeah,this character will be boring and annoying forever " for me . Then she sucks in Wolfheart and after that in the new dungeons . So this prove my point.
And Malfurion is not the problem,she is supporting character for Varian to .
And what really did you like about her in ,Seeds of Faith" and ,,Wolfheart" ?

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 02:11 PM
Why? She wasn't bad in any of them, she just once again got overshadowed by Malfurion.

As for Tyrande standing up to Malfurion, She always looks the other way when he oversteps his bounds. That, and the whole "HUSH, TYRANDE" thing.. Its horrible

He should have died in WC3, imo.

Vil'rexin
12-17-2011, 02:16 PM
He should have died in WC3, imo.The disputes and power struggles between Tyrande and Fandral were some of the best Night Elf lore in Warcraft. Too bad it came to an end :(

Odin
12-17-2011, 02:30 PM
He should have died in WC3, imo.
if you ask me the entire race had to die in WC3 . After the sacrafice they all die from old age or something . The other races remember the sacrafice in WoW and the race become cool old legend .
Bllizard add human druid in the alliance and more humans in Kalimdor . Humans and orcs fight over Ashenvale now for resources . The game will be like now,but with regular humans instead of purple .

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 02:33 PM
if you ask me the entire race had to die in WC3 . After the sacrafice they all die from old age or something .
Bllizard add human druid in the alliance and more humans in Kalimdor . Humans and orcs fight over Ashenvale now for resources . The game will be like now,but with regular humans instead of purple .

That's a terrible idea, introducing a race just to kill them off makes zero sense.

They really do need to sort out this immortality crap and move on though.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 02:36 PM
That's a terrible idea, introducing a race just to kill them off makes zero sense.

They really do need to sort out this immortality crap and move on though.

Losing it was terrible. Especially since they'd already lost it before.

"We're immortal! Yay!"
"We're mortal! Nooo"
"We're immortal! Yay!"
"We're mortal. Again. :< "

Erthad
12-17-2011, 02:41 PM
I don't really know what should be done with the night elves at this point. I do wish that it was Furion that is pushing the night elves into the Alliance instead of Tyrande.

I don't think the Alliance has done anything good for the night elves from a Stoey point of view.

Also I think partof why night elves don't feel as cool as their portrayal in WC3 is that we got to know them. They were cool when they were a race of mysterious warrior women.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 02:45 PM
She was horrible boring character before ,,Seeds of Faith" in Knaak books,so the short story was just ,,yeah,this character will be boring and annoying forever " for me . Then she sucks in Wolfheart and after that in the new dungeons . So this prove my point.
And Malfurion is not the problem,she is supporting character for Varian to .
And what really did you like about her in ,Seeds of Faith" and ,,Wolfheart" ?

Strong willed, intelligent, firm in her beliefs, wanting to protect her people, handles herself extremely well in panic situations.. Hell, she constantly pulls Malfurion out of the fire, though it is always just little blurbs..

She's like the piccolo to Malfurion's Gohan. Badass savior who always gets over looked because OMG ANGER SUPER SAIYAN!

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 02:48 PM
Strong willed, intelligent, firm in her beliefs, wanting to protect her people, handles herself extremely well in panic situations.. Hell, she constantly pulls Malfurion out of the fire, though it is always just little blurbs..

She's like the piccolo to Malfurion's Gohan. Badass savior who always gets over looked because OMG ANGER SUPER SAIYAN!
So that's why Tyrande went after Furion.

Odin
12-17-2011, 02:59 PM
That's a terrible idea, introducing a race just to kill them off makes zero sense.

Warcraft need real sacrifice :P Not ,,oh,we are mortal ,we can live only 2000 years now,the HORROR ."

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 03:19 PM
and the horde invasion of alliance isn't destroying it's "relations" with alliance? lolwat?


tell that to garfish and most of the horde that supports him. including forsaken


look, alliance and horde are at war. if shit went down in the center of orgrimmar (volcano, whatever else), i don't expect thrall/garfish or anyone else to invite elves to help them deal with the problem. and for elves to respond to the call for aid. but that's just stupid writing, and not really malfurion's fault.

what he DOES need however, is to be more vocal about horde, and he needs to dislike them for what they're doing. he needs to barely tolerate them around him, and make note that he's doing it ONLY cuz the world is in danger, and that they can expect to be hunted the moment they leave sanctuary zones. that alone would be a move in the right direction.
I was referring to the Cenarion Circle's relations to the Horde.

I have told it to Garrosh. Many, many times.

Garrosh is too stupid to invite the Alliance in for help, I agree, but I have no doubt that Thrall would be willing, and I suspect Malfurion would ensure that it'd happen. And Malfurion threatening the Horde at all would be a rather bad move.

Erthad
12-17-2011, 03:27 PM
I was referring to the Cenarion Circle's relations to the Horde.

I have told it to Garrosh. Many, many times.

Garrosh is too stupid to invite the Alliance in for help, I agree, but I have no doubt that Thrall would be willing, and I suspect Malfurion would ensure that it'd happen. And Malfurion threatening the Horde at all would be a rather bad move. Not anymore, Hyjal has been saved so he should be going after Garfish's Horde.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 03:33 PM
Not anymore, Hyjal has been saved so he should be going after Garfish's Horde.
There's still the problem of maybe splintering the Cenarion Circle and losing its tauren and troll members.

Erthad
12-17-2011, 03:36 PM
There's still the problem of maybe splintering the Cenarion Circle and losing its tauren and troll members. And I don't think he should care about that. To the point where he allows the Horde to burn Sacred Forests and take night elf land. The Cenarion Circle should be fighting against the Horde to defend Ashenval in my opinion. If that causes the Circle to splinter then that could be an interesting story.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 03:39 PM
And I don't think he should care about that. To the point where he allows the Horde to burn Sacred Forests and take night elf land. The Cenarion Circle should be fighting against the Horde to defend Ashenval in my opinion. If that causes the Circle to splinter then that could be an interesting story.
One region, in one war, vs. everything the Circle might be unable to do in the future. It's not worth it to weigh into the conflict.

Erthad
12-17-2011, 03:40 PM
One region, in one war, vs. everything the Circle might be unable to do in the future. It's not worth it to weigh into the conflict. Yes it is.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 03:41 PM
One region, in one war, vs. everything the Circle might be unable to do in the future. It's not worth it to weigh into the conflict.

Yes it is, because if hte Horde doesn't help, everyone dies anyway.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 03:43 PM
Yes it is, because if hte Horde doesn't help, everyone dies anyway.
Remember there's also the possibility of Garrosh attacking the Circle if it strikes against him.

Erthad
12-17-2011, 03:52 PM
Xil I don't think the Circle should outright attack the Horde. They should issue and ultimatum telling them to leave Ashenvale, Felwood, and Darkshore or they will side with the Alliance.

Currently the Circle as an organization has no reason to fear the Horde. Individual member would as most are night elves who have ties with night elves in the Alliance.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 03:54 PM
Xil I don't think the Circle should outright attack the Horde. They should issue and ultimatum telling them to leave Ashenvale, Felwood, and Darkshore or they will side with the Alliance.

Currently the Circle as an organization has no reason to fear the Horde. Individual member would as most are night elves who have ties with night elves in the Alliance.
Thus leading to Garrosh attacking in return. I doubt he can be negotiated with, and it's just far, far too risky.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 04:06 PM
Thus leading to Garrosh attacking in return. I doubt he can be negotiated with, and it's just far, far too risky.

Its risky if they dont do anything/.

Erthad
12-17-2011, 04:14 PM
Its risky if they dont do anything/.Exactly. They didn't say fighting Ragnaros would be too risky.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 04:23 PM
Stormrage. Read it. She gives Tyrande a vision to save malfurion and nearly ruins everything

Fair enough. I know that I don't hate all night elves, as I'm one of the people who thinks Illidian is pretty awesome even in Well of Eternity before he turns seriously grim (probably helps that both his voice sexy in both WC and WoW casting), but a good deal of them seem to be of the "it's been this way for a long time therefore it is good" super-traditionalist types. You see a lot of people posting that because the night elves have controlled or have done x for thousands of years, they should keep it.

In Blizzard games, nobody wins by being a super-traditionalist type. Night elves are verge of becoming Khala Protoss, with Malfurion being the token I See Clearly guy who can put aside the blinders of his native culture and take a radical action against a threat like he did at Hyjal.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Fair enough. I know that I don't hate all night elves, as I'm one of the people who thinks Illidian is pretty awesome even in Well of Eternity before he turns seriously grim (probably helps that both his voice sexy in both WC and WoW casting), but a good deal of them seem to be of the "it's been this way for a long time therefore it is good" super-traditionalist types. You see a lot of people posting that because the night elves have controlled or have done x for thousands of years, they should keep it.

In Blizzard games, nobody wins by being a super-traditionalist type. Night elves are verge of becoming Khala Protoss, with Malfurion being the token I See Clearly guy who can put aside the blinders of his native culture and take a radical action against a threat like he did at Hyjal.

Dude, I'm the guy who wants the Night Elves to send Garrosh a suit made of Tauren hide whilst sacrificing goblins and orcs. I want the Highborn to set people on fire and send them into farm houses. I hate the traditional shit. They need to break tradition and move forward, but that doesn't mean they should abandon their core culture.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 04:52 PM
Dude, I'm the guy who wants the Night Elves to send Garrosh a suit made of Tauren hide whilst sacrificing goblins and orcs. I want the Highborn to set people on fire and send them into farm houses. I hate the traditional shit. They need to break tradition and move forward, but that doesn't mean they should abandon their core culture.

Being a bunch of isolationist savages is the tradition, though. The whole druidism aspect is relatively new, and reaching out to other races and especially other races in the other faction is new and different and it addresses a critical point, which is that if Blizzard didn't have the orcs invading Ashenvale annually people would wonder why the night elves aren't Horde.

I know Starcraft better than I know Warcraft (not to "reading novels" expertise, but still), and the reason I made the Protoss comparison is because the non-Malfurion faction of night elves have the exact same thing driving them: "Well, we're the oldest thing in the Koprulu Sector, so we'll just glass anything that enters our borders and sit smug in our clearly superior society."

Thrall and Raynor are very different characters despite obviously being avatars of the same guy, and Illidan has more going on for him than being a Mirror Universe Zeratul. However, it's pretty obvious that Malfurion is being thrust into the same spotlight as Tassadar, with the same "we must tolerate people we don't like to fight the greater threat" arc.

I mean, really, this is the night elf scenario in a nutshell:

Big Ugly Evil Thing Voiced by Chris Metzen: TREMBLE, MORTALS!
Tyrande: Moon Goddess, bless us with the wisdom of the ancients and provide us with the light to see through the darkness!
*Night elves start dying off*
Malfurion: If we are to survive, we must throw off the shackles of tradition and seize our own destiny! Behold my gambit strategy, accomplished with the assistance of our hated rivals!
Tyrande: It's risky!
Malfurion: It works!
*it does work, the end*

...People who are calling for them to continue as isolationist savages like they have been for the past ten thousand years aren't getting the picture, or simply are unhappy with the idea that the story might go in this direction and don't want to say so. Instead they post rants about 'illegal' orc occupations as though both sides drew up rules of engagement on this stuff, or are simply against all immigration and colonization.

At the end of the day, the main four races of WC are humans, orcs, night elves, and undead. Dwarves and goblins and murlocs and tuskarr and so on are awesome and thank god WoW has given us a look at what kind of creatures they are when they aren't in battle, but the story pivots around those four races. And three of those four races have done pretty interesting things, and some villainous things. Except night elves, who mostly have just sat around and been victims since Hyjal. Humans have been total bastards, orcs will go to war at the slightest hesitation, and both undead factions have attempted genocide. The night elves only real sin is basically being too prideful and prejudiced. And those attitudes are always apparent right before the fall.

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 04:57 PM
Why does no organisation ever think about going down the politics route? What's preventing the Cenarion Circle from paying lip service to its neutrality and non-interventionism while looking the other way when the Night Elf druids and a number of the Ancients move to expel the Horde military from Ashenvale and Stonetalon?

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 05:01 PM
No one's saying they should't change, it just all happened offscreen so it feels stupid and unnatural and they act like they've always been this way.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Why does no organisation ever think about going down the politics route? What's preventing the Cenarion Circle from paying lip service to its neutrality and non-interventionism while looking the other way when the Night Elf druids and a number of the Ancients move to expel the Horde military from Ashenvale and Stonetalon?

Who says they don't? The Bilgewater presence in Felwood is with the Cenarion druids' blessings, because a Public Relations goblin negotiated with them. The worgen are convinced there's some kind of trickery at play there, for druids to allow goblins to shred perfectly good (by which I mean dead and dying, demonically tainted) trees like that.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Being a bunch of isolationist savages is the tradition, though. The whole druidism aspect is relatively new, and reaching out to other races and especially other races in the other faction is new and different and it addresses a critical point, which is that if Blizzard didn't have the orcs invading Ashenvale annually people would wonder why the night elves aren't Horde.

I know Starcraft better than I know Warcraft (not to "reading novels" expertise, but still), and the reason I made the Protoss comparison is because the non-Malfurion faction of night elves have the exact same thing driving them: "Well, we're the oldest thing in the Koprulu Sector, so we'll just glass anything that enters our borders and sit smug in our clearly superior society."

Thrall and Raynor are very different characters despite obviously being avatars of the same guy, and Illidan has more going on for him than being a Mirror Universe Zeratul. However, it's pretty obvious that Malfurion is being thrust into the same spotlight as Tassadar, with the same "we must tolerate people we don't like to fight the greater threat" arc.

I mean, really, this is the night elf scenario in a nutshell:

Big Ugly Evil Thing Voiced by Chris Metzen: TREMBLE, MORTALS!
Tyrande: Moon Goddess, bless us with the wisdom of the ancients and provide us with the light to see through the darkness!
*Night elves start dying off*
Malfurion: If we are to survive, we must throw off the shackles of tradition and seize our own destiny! Behold my gambit strategy, accomplished with the assistance of our hated rivals!
Tyrande: It's risky!
Malfurion: It works!
*it does work, the end*

...People who are calling for them to continue as isolationist savages like they have been for the past ten thousand years aren't getting the picture, or simply are unhappy with the idea that the story might go in this direction and don't want to say so. Instead they post rants about 'illegal' orc occupations as though both sides drew up rules of engagement on this stuff, or are simply against all immigration and colonization.

At the end of the day, the main four races of WC are humans, orcs, night elves, and undead. Dwarves and goblins and murlocs and tuskarr and so on are awesome and thank god WoW has given us a look at what kind of creatures they are when they aren't in battle, but the story pivots around those four races. And three of those four races have done pretty interesting things, and some villainous things. Except night elves, who mostly have just sat around and been victims since Hyjal. Humans have been total bastards, orcs will go to war at the slightest hesitation, and both undead factions have attempted genocide. The night elves only real sin is basically being too prideful and prejudiced. And those attitudes are always apparent right before the fall.

Things change a bit when Night Elves are not the aggressors. I fully agree Night Elves should work with other people. They shouldn't however be walked on, and give give give give in order to work with other people, and thats whats happening.

And the druidism isnt new

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 05:05 PM
Big Ugly Evil Thing Voiced by Chris Metzen: TREMBLE, MORTALS!
Tyrande: Moon Goddess, bless us with the wisdom of the ancients and provide us with the light to see through the darkness!
*Night elves start dying off*
Malfurion: If we are to survive, we must throw off the shackles of tradition and seize our own destiny! Behold my gambit strategy, accomplished with the assistance of our hated rivals!
Tyrande: It's risky!
Malfurion: It works!
*it does work, the end*

I thought the traditional way was:
*Non night elf touches Ashenvale tree
*Death by a thoundsand arrows, five hundred glaive slashes and some pieces of moon to said non night elf.


And if Maiev is reliable thats the traditional way indeed and is Malfurion the one holding them back. Tyrande already got over the xenophobia and highborneism

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 05:15 PM
I thought the traditional way was:
*Non night elf touches Ashenvale tree
*Death by a thoundsand arrows, five hundred glaive slashes and some pieces of moon to said non night elf.


And if Maiev is reliable thats the traditional way indeed and is Malfurion the one holding them back. Tyrande already got over the xenophobia and highborneism

All I know is that Knaak's biggest mistake was having Tyrande cheerlead tying the night elves to the Alliance while Maiev plots to kill Malfurion. She should be plotting to kill Tyrande instead, given that, yunnow, they have some serious bad blood going since Tyrande freed Illidan at the soonest.


WoW made a big lore jump in just tossing the night elves into the Alliance without anything happening on screen, and that should be addressed at some point. I wouldn't mind seeing a leadership struggle, with Tyrande wanting to go all in with the Alliance and Malfurion wanting to keep ties with the Horde and talk them out of their conflicts, all the while Maiev effectively goes third party and believes the race should be allied with no one.

People said immediately after reading Wolfheart that Maiev looks like a future raid boss right now, but if that does happen I'm hoping they first make her a figure for the people who "miss WC3 night elves." Even if she ultimately winds up being a martyr, posts that say "Maiev was right" would make a lot more sense than "I kinda miss when the night elves were their own faction and they had a lot more power and now half of them are neutral arrrrrgh."

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 05:15 PM
Speaking of Night Elves, it seems that some poor new poster over at the Story Forums unleashed something that they shouldn't have.

Erthad
12-17-2011, 05:16 PM
Speaking of Night Elves, it seems that some poor new poster over at the Story Forums unleashed something that they shouldn't have.:raisedbro
I'm curious, what?

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 05:17 PM
:raisedbro
I'm curious, what?
Ashenvale, and why the Orcs didn't just buy wood from there (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3764467342). It's a trial by fire, really.

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 05:19 PM
All I know is that Knaak's biggest mistake was having Tyrande cheerlead tying the night elves to the Alliance while Maiev plots to kill Malfurion. She should be plotting to kill Tyrande instead, given that, yunnow, they have some serious bad blood going since Tyrande freed Illidan at the soonest.



Yes but atleast there is some warrior-queen inside her sunk by writers. Malfurion in the other hand has been neutral-like since he woke up, before they were alliance or horde. Like I said he is the one holding them back

Ashenvale, and why the Orcs didn't just buy wood from there (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3764467342). It's a trial by fire, really.

OMG it started with the first reply

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 05:32 PM
Yes but atleast there is some warrior-queen inside her sunk by writers. Malfurion in the other hand has been neutral-like since he woke up, before they were alliance or horde. Like I said he is the one holding them back


But see, that's just how you see it. Some people think if the night elves tried to act more like good neighbours instead of Alliance stooges marooned on Kalimdor that things would go on more swimmingly.

If I was writing this, we'd have a leadership race:

*Tyrande if you want the night elves to go all in with the Alliance, the Cenarion Circle broken up, and Malfurion and Hamuul to go their separate ways. There will be no chance of peace with the Horde.

*Malfurion if you want the night elves to as a whole be a satellite member of the Alliance working to maintain the peace on Kalimdor, rather than try and fight three and a half races in their own home turf (I count tauren as a half since they're not really into it.) The humans consider the elves a bit untrustworthy while the other Alliance races are generally satisfied with the approval to immigrate on Kalimdor.

*Maiev if you believe the twosome should be deposed and the night elves to become a near faction of it's own that looks entirely after it's own interests. This is the "I wish they were like how they were in WC3" option.

Let people vote once per battle.net account, and the winner becomes the de facto racial leader and the story continues from there. Of course, night elves will still be flagged Alliance even if Maiev wins, but in lore she would be a very uncooperative leader just as likely to try and assassinate Varian as she would Garrosh.

Mutterscrawl
12-17-2011, 05:37 PM
Goddamnit *facepalm*

"OH CAUSE THE ORCS LIKE TO FIGHT"

Not "The Night Elves won't sell"

My fucking god.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 05:44 PM
But see, that's just how you see it. Some people think if the night elves tried to act more like good neighbours instead of Alliance stooges marooned on Kalimdor that things would go on more swimmingly.

If I was writing this, we'd have a leadership race:

*Tyrande if you want the night elves to go all in with the Alliance, the Cenarion Circle broken up, and Malfurion and Hamuul to go their separate ways. There will be no chance of peace with the Horde.

*Malfurion if you want the night elves to as a whole be a satellite member of the Alliance working to maintain the peace on Kalimdor, rather than try and fight three and a half races in their own home turf (I count tauren as a half since they're not really into it.) The humans consider the elves a bit untrustworthy while the other Alliance races are generally satisfied with the approval to immigrate on Kalimdor.

*Maiev if you believe the twosome should be deposed and the night elves to become a near faction of it's own that looks entirely after it's own interests. This is the "I wish they were like how they were in WC3" option.

Let people vote once per battle.net account, and the winner becomes the de facto racial leader and the story continues from there. Of course, night elves will still be flagged Alliance even if Maiev wins, but in lore she would be a very uncooperative leader just as likely to try and assassinate Varian as she would Garrosh.

In other words, make the Night Elves forever be at the mercy of the Orcs if you want to go with Malfurion.

Look, peace won't happen without all concessions being made to the Alliance. That will be true for all races. The Horde culture is to different, and they refuse to change, yet its always every other races fault for not "accepting others cultures".

Tyrande and the Alliance need to get over the idea of peace.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 05:47 PM
Two of those three options cut off all communication with the Horde. What did you not read?

(nevermind, you edited. Pending...)

(edited: The Malfurion choice would put the night elves at the mercy of the orcs no more, probably less than Tyrande puts the night elves at the mercy of the humans whims to fuck with the orcs. Maiev is the "let's not depend on anyone with the consequence of not having friends" option.

It's pretty clear you're a Tyrande voter anyway, I'm just clarifying the consequences.)

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 05:47 PM
Peace will happen. The Alliance and the Night Elves can't stamp their feet like petulant children forever. And the end result will be another cold war. Different dynamics, but at the core, all the same.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 05:50 PM
Yeah Varian doesn't do "uncooperative" leaders. The Alliance is at war and that means all the races and leaders pull their wait in the war. Uncooperation is a very thin line for treachery. Say Maiev does win, it won't be long until another Moira incident occurs. Much to the chagrin of a lot of night elf fans, Varian won't hesitate to invade Darnassus if she pulls any shit.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 05:50 PM
Yeah Varian doesn't do "uncooperative" leaders. The Alliance is at war and that means all the races and leaders pull their wait in the war. Uncooperation is a very thin line for treachery. Say Maiev does win, it won't be long until another Moira incident occurs. Much to the chargin of a lot of night elf fans, Varian won't hesitate to invade Darnassus if she pulls any shit.

Varian couldn't invade Darn. He could only do IF thanks to the tram.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 05:52 PM
Varian couldn't invade Darn. He could only do IF thanks to the tram.

He can find a way. Don't understimate him.

Kadifa
12-17-2011, 05:53 PM
He can find a way. Don't understimate him.
The day Varian invades Darnassus to overthrow his greatest allies on the continent is the day I write him off completely as a waste of lorespace.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 05:54 PM
The day Varian invades Darnassus to overthrow his greatest allies on the continent is the day I write him off completely as a waste of lorespace.

Tyrande was his greatest ally and supporter. Maiev is not.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 05:54 PM
Yeah Varian doesn't do "uncooperative" leaders. The Alliance is at war and that means all the races and leaders pull their wait in the war. Uncooperation is a very thin line for treachery.
The Horde is also at war, and I'm thinking Maiev would be as "off the leash" as Sylvanas currently is now.

Say Maiev does win, it won't be long until another Moira incident occurs. Much to the chargin of a lot of night elf fans, Varian won't hesitate to invade Darnassus if she pulls any shit.
The night elves are in a pretty good position. In order for Varian to get to them, he would have to get through the orcs. Not that the orcs love the night elves either, but any attempt to land at Kalimdor will be repelled by either of the two.

The Kalimdor Horde needed three races headquartered right outside their boundary just to make any kind of impact in Ashenvale. What chance does Varian think he has striking against all four of them from the other side of the world?

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 05:58 PM
The Horde is also at war, and I'm thinking Maiev would be as "off the leash" as Sylvanas currently is now.


The night elves are in a pretty good position. In order for Varian to get to them, he would have to get through the orcs. Not that the orcs love the night elves either, but any attempt to land at Kalimdor will be repelled by either of the two.

The Kalimdor Horde needed three races headquartered right outside their boundary just to make any kind of impact in Ashenvale. What chance does Varian think he has striking against all four of them from the other side of the world?

That's assuming that the night elf people would support Maiev and not treat her as an usurper of Tyrande, their priestess of the Moon and Elune's chosen. Varian, the champion of Lo'Gosh, the savior of Ashenvale can garner more support than that crazy bitch.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 05:59 PM
Peace will happen. The Alliance and the Night Elves can't stamp their feet like petulant children forever. And the end result will be another cold war. Different dynamics, but at the core, all the same.

Its the Orcs pushing for land that doesn't belong to them.


(edited: The Malfurion choice would put the night elves at the mercy of the orcs no more, probably less than Tyrande puts the night elves at the mercy of the humans whims to fuck with the orcs. Maiev is the "let's not depend on anyone with the consequence of not having friends" option.

No. You can't make peace with a people who are unwilling to acknowledge they dont have a right to everything, and thats the orcs. They will start off small and demand more and more and more, and as long as people like Malfurion are in charge, they will give and give and give.

As long as Malfurion tries to work with the horde for peace, the Orcs will always have the advantage. Tyrande is willing to work with the Horde.

The difference is she will negotiate to avoid war.

Malfurion will do so for peace.

Tyrande has the teeth and attitude needed to make the Orcs understand that hell WILL rain down if provoked.

Malfurion will keep giving and giving until he CAN"T rain hell down, and the Orcs have to much of an upper hand to fight back with.

Maiev is and always was a radical bitch.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 06:12 PM
That's assuming that the night elf people would support Maiev and not treat her as an usurper of Tyrande, their priestess of the Moon and Elune's chosen. Varian, the champion of Lo'Gosh, the savior of Ashenvale can garner more support than that crazy bitch.

Ultimately, the views of NPCs and the views of the players align at some point. While you're right in the direction that the story is going now, we were told endlessly that Garrosh was a hero and more popular than Thrall among your typical Horde NPC who weren't privileged see what all the players saw going on in Northrend.

Then, the playerbase has largely decided he sucks, so lore is making him a bully to every race in the Horde and Metzen basically declared him a soulless killing machine at Blizzcon.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 06:16 PM
Ultimately, the views of NPCs and the views of the players align at some point. While you're right in the direction that the story is going now, we were told endlessly that Garrosh was a hero and more popular than Thrall among your typical Horde NPC who weren't privileged see what all the players saw going on in Northrend.

Then, the playerbase has largely decided he sucks, so lore is making him a bully to every race in the Horde and Metzen basically declared him a soulless killing machine at Blizzcon.

It could be Garrosh was always meant to be overthrown, but that's not an instance of Blizz pandering the whims of the player. Player interpretation of lore figures tend to be petty and misunderstood. Maybe he won't be overthrown at all and once he hit rock bottom with this war Garrosh will turn the Horde around. Who knows. Not all love Varian Wrynn but they're still pushing him as hero of the Alliance.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 06:20 PM
It could be Garrosh was always meant to be overthrown, but that's not an instance of Blizz pandering the whims of the player. Player interpretation of lore figures tend to be petty and misunderstood. Maybe he won't be overthrown at all and once he hit rock bottom with this war Garrosh will turn the Horde around. Who knows. Not all love Varian Wrynn but they're still pushing him as hero of the Alliance.

Because for the longest time people were complaining about wanting more humans vs orcs.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 06:22 PM
Because for the longest time people were complaining about wanting more humans vs orcs.
Who was complaining that? What did they say?

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 06:24 PM
Who was complaining that? What did they say?

A crap load of people since around BC, most going something like this.

"Ohh this peace stuff is stupid. OMG We need more Orcs n Humans. Bring the game to its roots. RAWR WAR in WARCRAFT"

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 06:27 PM
A crap load of people since around BC, most going something like this.

"Ohh this peace stuff is stupid. OMG We need more Orcs n Humans. Bring the game to its roots. RAWR WAR in WARCRAFT"

And you have a problem with that?

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 06:29 PM
And you have a problem with that?

Yes, the games lore has moved past that and now they ham fist it in,

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 06:29 PM
Not all love Varian Wrynn but they're still pushing him as hero of the Alliance.

Varian, like Thrall, is an avatar of Metzen's self image. We can love or hate them, but we ultimately just have to deal with them because they won't change or go away.

Though if he wasn't hiding anything at Blizzcon, it sounded like he was getting tired of Varian and then got interested again when Golden made Anduin into an developing personality who possibly has less Fantasy Racism than your average Warcraft character.

Kellick
12-17-2011, 06:29 PM
Goddamnit *facepalm*

"OH CAUSE THE ORCS LIKE TO FIGHT"

Not "The Night Elves won't sell"

My fucking god.

I left when I thought there was a lull in the arguing, but it's since gotten worse.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 06:30 PM
And you have a problem with that?

A big one.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 06:39 PM
Yes, the games lore has moved past that and now they ham fist it in,

Ham fisted it in? The game's lore was getting stale. How many times can two factions kill each other in battlegrounds with out someone getting pissed off? Conflict added to the plot because it was the only logical progression.
Human lore also seemed to drop off the face of the planet at the beginning of WC3. In WoW Vanilla, humans greatest lore figure was Bolvar Fordragon. There was no backstory behind him, he was castellan for a king that was absent and acted as the unofficial head. He didn't interact with anyone or have grand adventures. He didn't have an archenemy. He stood in the keep and did nothing. But human players invented how badass he was in their imaginations because they saw him bubble and fight off multiple drakonids in game which was retconed in the comic. Now they have a king who pisses people off, who gains respect of other characters, who interacts. Human lore needed a power up and they got it. See no problem with that.

Odin
12-17-2011, 06:39 PM
Its the Orcs pushing for land that doesn't belong to them.


.

So? This is WARcraft,the strongest gets the land .
Why people complain about the orcs being mean,if they can conquer Ashenvale IS THEIR LAND .
I remember WC3 when two cool savage races beat the shit of eachather,they do nоt care about morals or feelings back then. Or who is mean .
But now the Ashenvale conflict is just boring.The orcs conquer of Ashenvale isn't fun anymore,because the night elves are no longer decent fighters,they are over victimized hippies now.
And this sucks for both factions .
What do you wanna play- over victimized hippy or WC3 night elf.
Or what do you wanna fight- dying over victimized hippy,which daughter has died or cool warrior woman .

Kellick
12-17-2011, 06:46 PM
A big one.

Agreed.

It just seems like people are stuck in this binary mentality, where if you aren't actively trying to kill the other guy, you're the friendliest friendliness of friends.

You can officially be at peace, but take pot shots at each other, or reinforce your position in one area while undermining theirs, trying to increase your influence on their allies, even have minor skirmishes and scuffles on the frontier.

Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggy" until you can find a rock.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 06:48 PM
Garrosh is the rock and its been cast and now the Alliance is suffering a gushing wound to the head. Still wanna play diplomacy?

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 06:50 PM
So? This is WARcraft,the strongest gets the land .
Why people complain about the orcs being mean,if they can conquer Ashenvale IS THEIR LAND .
I remember WC3 when two cool savage races beat the shit of eachather,they do nоt care about morals or feelings back then. Or who is mean .
But now the Ashenvale conflict is just boring.The orcs conquer of Ashenvale isn't fun anymore,because the night elves are no longer decent fighters,they are over victimized hippies now.
And this sucks for both factions .
What do you wanna play- over victimized hippy or WC3 night elf.
Or what do you wanna fight- dying over victimized hippy,which daughter has died or cool warrior woman .

Warcraft 3 was interesting not because it was two races beating on each other, but because it was a series of events that led the two races to fight without a clear good guy or bad guy.

Its not the same thing anymore.

And I'd prefer neither of those races. Both should have evolved past that with the advancing story.

Slywyn
12-17-2011, 06:54 PM
Garrosh is the rock and its been cast and now the Alliance is suffering a gushing wound to the head. Still wanna play diplomacy?

The only reason characters like Garrosh exist is because of the constant need to justify new BGs and PvP areas in a land that, by all rights, should be at peace.

And now, in MoP, the worst part of Warcraft's story is being brought to the forefront and used as justification for an entire expansion.

Who's the end boss going to be? The opposite faction's faction leaders?

That would be a good way to get rid of dead weight, wouldn't it? Have Varian and Thrall, and maybe Velen(Since he can't die because he's got to lead that fabled Army of Light eventually) would be the only survivors, and then we'd be right back to just Orcs and Humans like all the PvP players seem to want.

Odin
12-17-2011, 06:58 PM
Warcraft 3 was interesting not because it was two races beating on each other, but because it was a series of events that led the two races to fight without a clear good guy or bad guy.

I said that .There is no ,,mean" race like now.
Both races are ,,mean" back then .
And the fighting was good in WC3 .The night elves fight like humans now - sword and charge . Or use stealth and just wait until the orcs find them and kill them.
Never use stealth for assassination or something like that :nono:

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 07:03 PM
Garrosh is the rock and its been cast and now the Alliance is suffering a gushing wound to the head. Still wanna play diplomacy?

Gilneas wasn't actually in the Alliance at the time, and they won offscreen. Ashenvale was also won offscreen.

I'll give you Theramore, but that's because the storyline of the Barrens was the orcs trying to take over Ashenvale and the humans responding in kind to negate them. At the end of the day, the developers were left with the Horde attacking an Alliance non-capital or the Alliance attacking a Horde capital and went with the choice that is easier to support going forward.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 07:04 PM
I said that .There is no ,,mean" race like now.
Both races are ,,mean" back then .
And the fighting was good in WC3 .The night elves fight like humans now - sword and charge . Or use stealth and just wait until the orcs find them and kill them.
Never use stealth for assassination or something like that :nono:

No, see. There were no "mean" races.

The homogenization of cultures though is an issue as well.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 07:08 PM
The only reason characters like Garrosh exist is because of the constant need to justify new BGs and PvP areas in a land that, by all rights, should be at peace.

And now, in MoP, the worst part of Warcraft's story is being brought to the forefront and used as justification for an entire expansion.

Who's the end boss going to be? The opposite faction's faction leaders?
Who knows. I don't even know if they'll ever resolve the war at least in WoW's lifespan. Because conflict between the two political factions is the entire premise of the franchise. If it was like Dragon Age, you have political factions like Ferelden, Orlais, the free Elves, Par Vollen, the mages all doing their own thing and waging war on all other people but in WoW we have only the Alliance and the Horde and the neutrals. I don't know about MoP but I think they'll find some way to put the war on hold or distract themselves from their hatreds when the Burning Legion comes into play again.

That would be a good way to get rid of dead weight, wouldn't it? Have Varian and Thrall, and maybe Velen(Since he can't die because he's got to lead that fabled Army of Light eventually) would be the only survivors, and then we'd be right back to just Orcs and Humans like all the PvP players seem to want.

No Velen can still die. Anduin is foreshadowed as playing a major role in the Light, perhaps the Army of the Light specifically. A lot of people think he's being groomed to take over for Varian as leader of Stormwind or the Alliance, but more likely he'll be playing a neutral role in the Army of the Light.

Jiwat
12-17-2011, 07:09 PM
I.... I gave up on that Ashenvale thread when Kyalin pulled out the welfare queen analogy. That person is a bountiful treasure trove of conservative strawman arguments. I await the post about how the destitute goblins in the slums can't be that poor because Zarbo Porkpatty stands next to a barbecue.

GenyaArikado
12-17-2011, 07:20 PM
So? This is WARcraft,the strongest gets the land .
Why people complain about the orcs being mean,if they can conquer Ashenvale IS THEIR LAND .

Sylvanas facepalms
http://i1.kwejk.pl/site_media/obrazki/102620-gaga-facepalm.gif

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 09:26 PM
It's also impossible to prop Maiev in position of power at this point. Jarod Shadowsong has vowed to bring Maiev to justice at the end of Wolfheart. I don't think that involves putting her on the Night Elf throne and General Shandris Feathermoon will hate anyone who usurps Tyrande. How is Maiev suppose to garner the support to maintain her rule? Malfurion and Broll won't support her either.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 09:33 PM
It's also impossible to prop Maiev in position of power at this point. Jarod Shadowsong has vowed to bring Maiev to justice at the end of Wolfheart. I don't think that involves putting her on the Night Elf throne and General Shandris Feathermoon will hate anyone who usurps Tyrande. How is Maiev suppose to garner the support to maintain her rule? Malfurion and Broll won't support her either.
Well, if Tyrande died... that'd be something. It might even anger Malfurion enough to the point where, while he can't interfere with the Horde directly, he'd place Warden McCrazypants on Darnassus' throne.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 09:39 PM
Well, if Tyrande died... that'd be something. It might even anger Malfurion enough to the point where, while he can't interfere with the Horde directly, he'd place Warden McCrazypants on Darnassus' throne.

If Tyrande died, by right of seccession he becomes lord of the night elves. Or if he abdicates, it goes to Tyrande's "adopted" daughter Shandris.

Xilizhra
12-17-2011, 09:42 PM
If Tyrande died, by right of seccession he becomes lord of the night elves. Or if he abdicates, it goes to Tyrande's "adopted" daughter Shandris.
Hmmm... Shandris vs. Maiev squabble for control. It could prove interesting.

Truth be told, I'm warming up to the idea of Maiev clawing for more power.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 09:55 PM
If Tyrande died, by right of seccession he becomes lord of the night elves. Or if he abdicates, it goes to Tyrande's "adopted" daughter Shandris.

Uhh, no.

That's not how it works.

Tyrande is not currently the leader of the Night Elves due to her blood or anything. It's because she is the High Priestess. If something were to happen to Tyrande, her half of the power would go to the next High Priestess of Elune, who Tyrande would name.

All things considered, it would probably be Shandris, since Tyrande has left Darnassus in her control before.

To be perfectly honest, since Tyrande gave Malfurion power, if she were killed and replaced, I'm not sure Malfurion would remain in any "official" office of power.

His legal station of Authority among the Darnassian Night Elves is only granted through the Church of Elune.

Sports72Xtrm
12-17-2011, 10:02 PM
Tyrande can deny being a queen all she wants but how the night elves perceive her in the book is that of a queen, not a religious leader. A queen with a husband who gained political clout through marriage as Maiev explained in Wolfheart, blaming Mal for letting the Highborne in. Most likely the common night elf follows the head of the Sentinels who protected them from the Burning Legion and not the priests. I think the Night Elf government will be more secular in the days to come.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 10:07 PM
Tyrande can deny being a queen all she wants but how the night elves perceive her in the book is that of a queen, not a religious leader. A queen with a husband who gained political clout through marriage as Maiev explained in Wolfheart, blaming Mal for letting the Highborne in. Most likely the common night elf follows the head of the Sentinels who protected them from the Burning Legion and not the priests. I think the Night Elf government will be more secular in the days to come.

The Night Elves follow the High Priestess. It happens to be Tyrande at the moment. They are a Theocracy, not a monarchy. Further, even if it WAS a Monarchy, much would depend on how its set up. A male may be unable to lead the nation.

The Night Elves may want to worship Tyrande as a Queen, and I think the title should be official... but as is Tyrnade HAS placed her power in Shandris, and she IS ruler as the High Priestess of Elune.

You can't say the rules of a monarcy will apply when they are not a monarchy. And..They bowed when she started glowing in wolfheart from what I recall....

Leviathon
12-17-2011, 10:21 PM
For a race that has the same leader for the past 10 thousand years it's really guesswork and speculation what would happen no matter what. If she died maybe some no name priestess would take over or Shandris and her Sentinels or maybe the entire power structure would change to Malfurion and his druids or whatever group was next to get power. The current political setup is mostly just since their current leader was the High Priestess after the war.

Genesis
12-17-2011, 10:24 PM
The Night Elves follow the High Priestess. It happens to be Tyrande at the moment. They are a Theocracy, not a monarchy. Further, even if it WAS a Monarchy, much would depend on how its set up. A male may be unable to lead the nation.

The Night Elves may want to worship Tyrande as a Queen, and I think the title should be official... but as is Tyrnade HAS placed her power in Shandris, and she IS ruler as the High Priestess of Elune.

You can't say the rules of a monarcy will apply when they are not a monarchy. And..They bowed when she started glowing in wolfheart from what I recall....Mono = one. Archy = rule or government. Yeah, if the political power rests in essentially one person as the head of state. It's a monarchy, even if there is a theocratic flavor to it. The Queen of England also happens to be, for example, the head of the Church of England.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 10:46 PM
Mono = one. Archy = rule or government. Yeah, if the political power rests in essentially one person as the head of state. It's a monarchy, even if there is a theocratic flavor to it. The Queen of England also happens to be, for example, the head of the Church of England.

Except thats not how the word is used, and most everyone knows it. From a literal definition, yes it means one ruler. However its common usage 99% of the time denotes rule through hereditary means, in which case even then Malfurion wouldn't claim power as he is not a blood relative. A lesser noble family would become king or queen with Tyrande having no direct blood relatives. Or, at least, thats how it should happen.

It's possible that the Night Elves are an elective monarchy, in which case Malfurion would STILL not gain power over the Night Elves unless he was voted in.

But as someone said earlier, we can't actually tell how it would happen. Chances are Tyrande's death would send the race into a death spiral. She's been such a central figure to the shaping of the current government, from restructuring the military, recreating the military, the multiple truces and treaties they have with other sentient races in the area.

Almost everything about the Night Elven government was put together by her during the years following the War of the Ancients.

To have that taken away from most people, especially when she is considered the Vessel of Elune (again, called this from Wolfheart.) would cripple them.

Which might be interesting, but really I don't think Blizzard could pull the story off.

Genesis
12-17-2011, 10:50 PM
Except thats not how the word is used, and most everyone knows it. From a literal definition, yes it means one ruler. However its common usage 99% of the time denotes rule through hereditary means, in which case even then Malfurion wouldn't claim power as he is not a blood relative. A lesser noble family would become king or queen with Tyrande having no direct blood relatives. Or, at least, thats how it should happen.Not all monarchies are hereditary monarchies. Most historical monarchies have been hereditary, as there is a natural gravitation towards those sort of systems that provides an easy (and relatively stable) means of succession.

It's possible that the Night Elves are an elective monarchy, in which case Malfurion would STILL not gain power over the Night Elves unless he was voted in.And an elective monarchy would still be a monarchy.

I'm honestly not interested in the rest of the conversation.

Ruinshin
12-17-2011, 11:00 PM
Not all monarchies are hereditary monarchies. Most historical monarchies have been hereditary, as there is a natural gravitation towards those sort of systems that provides an easy (and relatively stable) means of succession.

Again, while technically correct, 99% of the time monarchy is used to indicate a hereditary system, and that's what it means for most people.

If anything, since Monarchies don't actually mean supreme power as their power tends to swing from supreme leader to figurehead, the Night Elves would currently have a Autocracy, where the single leader ALWAYS has unlimited power.

Monarchs on the other hand, not always.


And an elective monarchy would still be a monarchy.

I'm honestly not interested in the rest of the conversation


Yes it would be, but I also said that it is "possible", not that it is.

Lord Grimtale
12-18-2011, 01:36 AM
Xil I really don't like those ideas and can't find anything interesting about them. I still think it would have been better to flesh our more Night Elf characters than just Malfurion. Every other Night Elf character is a foil to Malfurion, that's all they're good for in the narrative so far.

As far as that goes, I give up with Night Elves. I think Blizzard just absolutely neutered and ruined them since WoW's inception and now it shows heavily when you put them in a war story. If anyone other than Xil, Ferlion, or Sports has a good idea for what Night Elves should do in the current narrative that doesn't entail them sustaining a people that systematically hates them I'd like to know.

Jiwat
12-18-2011, 03:26 AM
For what's worth, I have no idea how night elf politics work. I would just rather see Maiev try and be a revolutionary for an ideal than an instant raid boss, and their core problem in lore is simply not having as much drive to be attached to the Alliance as the Forsaken have had with their marriage of convenience to the Horde.

While I was writing that post, I figured that it would essentially be Maiev attempting to assassinate the power couple and the end of the story is left to the player population to determine by way of who is "in charge." Tyrande or Furion winning the popularity contest would likely result in Maiev killing the loser before being jailed (can you see her in Illidan's cell? Mmmm, irony.) Whereas if Maiev won, both members of the power couple would probably go into "comic book death" where Maiev claims she killed them but nobody ever saw the bodies.

I also figure that Jerod and Shandris would way low and that the puppies and aliens would be kicked off night elf property as part of Queen Maiev's Crazed Isolationist Power Trip.

I doubt Blizzard can pull that story off, especially in an MMO setting, but it would get fans talking again if nothing else.

Xilizhra
12-18-2011, 06:14 AM
For what's worth, I have no idea how night elf politics work. I would just rather see Maiev try and be a revolutionary for an ideal than an instant raid boss, and their core problem in lore is simply not having as much drive to be attached to the Alliance as the Forsaken have had with their marriage of convenience to the Horde.
I think a lot of that is because the Forsaken's and humanity's mutual hatred seems far more natural than the orc/night elf one, which I honestly feel is rather forced.

GenyaArikado
12-18-2011, 07:12 AM
Xil I really don't like those ideas and can't find anything interesting about them. I still think it would have been better to flesh our more Night Elf characters than just Malfurion. Every other Night Elf character is a foil to Malfurion, that's all they're good for in the narrative so far.

As far as that goes, I give up with Night Elves. I think Blizzard just absolutely neutered and ruined them since WoW's inception and now it shows heavily when you put them in a war story. If anyone other than Xil, Ferlion, or Sports has a good idea for what Night Elves should do in the current narrative that doesn't entail them sustaining a people that systematically hates them I'd like to know.

Is not that hard actually. Piss off Tyrande and the 90% of the species will be furious too. Pissed Night elves= WC3 Night Elves