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Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 05:13 PM
And yet keep the Forsaken a viable race in the game environment of the Horde. Thusly, this would mean a lack of territory concessions. I'm sure there are those with more creative ideas.

Fojar
01-07-2012, 05:17 PM
She's as irredeemable as Arthas was.

Erthad
01-07-2012, 05:18 PM
Why must she be redeemed?

SmokeBlader
01-07-2012, 05:22 PM
Sylvanas ? redeemed ?
Don't make me laugh.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 05:24 PM
Why must she be redeemed?
It's a matter of opinion. However, if someone was to post in a thread about Tyrande asking for ways in which she could be more active, and then someone said that she should remain Malfurion's housewife for eternity, I would consider it silly. Suffice it to say that I personally believe that it would be a waste to simply kill her off, considering all of her history and the fact that I believe the story of her fall is rather weak and uncompelling. A redemption story would be a good way to salvage this.

Faine
01-07-2012, 05:26 PM
Why must she be redeemed?

Beat me to it.

Let Sylvanas be the cold-hearted, uncaring, irredeemable banshee she's shaping up to be and lets see how it plays out. It makes for a more interesting story imo.

Chef
01-07-2012, 05:27 PM
It's a matter of opinion. However, if someone was to post in a thread about Tyrande asking for ways in which she could be more active, and then someone said that she should remain Malfurion's housewife for eternity, I would consider it silly. Suffice it to say that I personally believe that it would be a waste to simply kill her off, considering all of her history and the fact that I believe the story of her fall is rather weak and uncompelling. A redemption story would be a good way to salvage this.

No, please, not another redemption story. We've had enough of that for the last decade.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 05:27 PM
Beat me to it.

Let Sylvanas be the cold-hearted, uncaring, irredeemable banshee she's shaping up to be and lets see how it plays out. It makes for a more interesting story imo.
I disagree. I consider the story to be crap.

No, please, not another redemption story. We've had enough of that for the last decade.
WoW hasn't even existed for a decade.

Fojar
01-07-2012, 05:29 PM
I disagree. I consider the story to be crap.

Why? You and your buddies have the Forsaken doing the "we are Lordaeron" crap that you were clamoring for.

Chef
01-07-2012, 05:29 PM
WoW hasn't even existed for a decade.

I was talking about stories in general. Redemption stories are saturated and unoriginal.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 05:30 PM
Fuck redemption.


True heroes do what they feel they must do regardless of whether or not it makes them irredeemable. Redemption, really, is all about one's personal reputation, is it not? True heroes- those defined by the magnitude of their actions, seek not redemption but vindication.

SmokeBlader
01-07-2012, 05:31 PM
Well Metzen said he is a sucker for good redemption stories.

Chef
01-07-2012, 05:32 PM
Fuck redemption.


True heroes do what they feel they must do regardless of whether or not it makes them irredeemable. Redemption, really, is all about one's personal reputation, is it not? True heroes- those defined by the magnitude of their actions, seek not redemption but vindication.

One of the reasons why Admiral Proudmoore was badass.

Erthad
01-07-2012, 05:32 PM
It's a matter of opinion. However, if someone was to post in a thread about Tyrande asking for ways in which she could be more active, and then someone said that she should remain Malfurion's housewife for eternity, I would consider it silly. Suffice it to say that I personally believe that it would be a waste to simply kill her off, considering all of her history and the fact that I believe the story of her fall is rather weak and uncompelling. A redemption story would be a good way to salvage this. I agree that killing her off would be a waste.

I have to disagree about her current story not being interesting but that is my opinion. Personally I don't want her to have a redemption story but I don't want her to die for a while.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 05:34 PM
One of the reasons why Admiral Proudmoore was badass.

It's why my favorite character is still Maiev Shadowsong. She did what had to be done, because there is only one consequence: success or failure. Anything else is simply superfluous.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 05:34 PM
Why? You and your buddies have the Forsaken doing the "we are Lordaeron" crap that you were clamoring for.
Doing it badly. I'm certain you wouldn't want Varian to reclaim Lordaeron by performing a blood sacrifice of the remaining Gnomeregan exiles.

I was talking about stories in general. Redemption stories are saturated and unoriginal.
Everything is. "Killing the fuck out of it" stories are much more so, however, in WoW.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 05:34 PM
Why must she be redeemed?
I second this.

Sylvanas is working as intended. Lrn2Lore.

Why? You and your buddies have the Forsaken doing the "we are Lordaeron" crap that you were clamoring for.
That's an interesting way of spelling "truth". Not the way I would spell it but hey, to each their own.

Sonneillon
01-07-2012, 05:35 PM
I'd still love to see her mortally wound (but not strike the final blow) on Kil'jaeden with the shattered husk of frost mourn.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 05:35 PM
Doing it badly. I'm certain you wouldn't want Varian to reclaim Lordaeron by performing a blood sacrifice of the remaining Gnomeregan exiles.

It'd certainly be more interesting than him sending soldiers into the Lordaeron quagmire and a fresh, interesting twist on the character.

Zaelsino
01-07-2012, 05:40 PM
Well Metzen said he is a sucker for good redemption stories.

Bit of a pity that little short of old god corruption (aka contrived bullshit) could set her straight now.

Every positive thing she's ever had going for her is gone. That last sentimental link to her elven roots? Gone. She buttered them up nicely to get more troops, and then threatened to let the homeland she died for be crushed again if her own former second-in-command didn't bow down to her wishes.

Her own race? Tools to be used and discarded as she sees fit, their sole existence simply to keep her meeting the fate she wove for herself with that "free will" she's been hammering on about.

She makes a good villain, and she's one of my favourite characters... but redemption is probably not going to happen here. They're taking quite some long strides to paint her as a monster.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 05:42 PM
She makes a good villain, and she's one of my favourite characters... but redemption is probably not going to happen here. They're taking quite some long strides to paint her as a monster.
Then equally long strides back would be intriguing.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 05:42 PM
Please someone tell me what exactly it is that Sylvanas is doing "out of character" because so far, I'm not seeing it.

And another thing I wanted to get out. Guess what incident doesn't actually matter? If your guess was the assassination of Garithos, then you are correct.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 05:42 PM
I wonder what will happen if she was brought back to life by accident. Continue her work with the undead or return to her high elf people.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 05:43 PM
Then equally long strides back would be intriguing.

Have you ever tried taking long strides in leather pants?

Not happenin'.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 05:44 PM
Have you ever tried taking long strides in leather pants?

Not happenin'.
But undead can't feel chafing.

I wonder what will happen if she was brought back to life by accident. Continue her work with the undead or return to her high elf people.
The same thing that happens when High Elves are made playable.

SmokeBlader
01-07-2012, 05:44 PM
Please someone tell me what exactly it is that Sylvanas is doing "out of character" because so far, I'm not seeing it.

She is Arthas with a :raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor:.

Chef
01-07-2012, 05:45 PM
Have you ever tried taking long strides in leather pants?

Not happenin'.

Leather pants. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jnCcejkpjg&t=0m35s)

cosmictimelion
01-07-2012, 05:47 PM
Unfortunately, I feel the only way to "redeem" a character like Sylvanas is death. A noble, heroic death of some sort. Similar to that of Grom's.

That does not mean her "redemption" is universal. It may just be the Horde, or perhaps a small group within the Horde, that considers her to be redeemed. Regardless of what happens, alongside Garrosh, when Sylvanas dies, many people will spam the various WoW-related forums with cries of triumph or victory.

My personal belief is that Sylvanas does not need redemption. She is only looking out for herself. She does not need to justify her motives to anyone other than herself. Whether Garrosh or Varian approve, should matter very little to her. She's an interesting character who keeps things interesting. We need her around. She's very important, I believe.

Faine
01-07-2012, 05:48 PM
I wonder what will happen if she was brought back to life by accident. Continue her work with the undead or return to her high elf people.

>implying they're any high elves left

But seriously, it would basically come down to stay with the Horde or go to the Alliance if thats the case. (unless you're talking about blood elves then she'll most likely stay with the Horde regardless)

Also, I don't see how a redemption story that involves her being alive would make her story any better than it is now. If anything, I think it would just water it down.

Ashendant
01-07-2012, 05:49 PM
I think Sylvanas is being set as a monster, before she is redeemed.

I just hope the plot for it would be good.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 05:51 PM
She is Arthas with a :raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor::raptor:.
By which you mean that she's a self-appointed monarch, she commands an undead army and she uses tactics that are similar to Arthas?

That's not really out of character.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 05:52 PM
>implying they're any high elves left

But seriously, it would basically come down to stay with the Horde or go to the Alliance if thats the case. (unless you're talking about blood elves then she'll most likely stay with the Horde regardless)

Also, I don't see how a redemption story that involves her being alive would make her story any better than it is now. If anything, I think it would just water it down.

Oh I'm sorry, I mean the bloodelves.

I also don't see a redemption story will be good for her, but it will be interesting to see her being brought back to life and make the struggle.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 05:55 PM
Oh I'm sorry, I mean the bloodelves.

I also don't see a redemption story will be good for her, but it will be interesting to see her being brought back to life and make the struggle.
No it won't.

Sylvanas is working as intended.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 05:56 PM
No it won't.

Sylvanas is working as intended.

So you think she will kill herself again to stay with the undead?

Gadinhad
01-07-2012, 05:57 PM
Wants Garithos characters eaten by Ghouls.
Wants Sylvanas characters redeemed.

Yep, you've been inhaling the toxins.

Erthad
01-07-2012, 05:58 PM
It clould be interesting for another character, It would be a bad story direction for Sylvanas.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 05:58 PM
Wants Garithos characters eaten by Ghouls.
Wants Sylvanas characters redeemed.

Yep, you've been inhaling the toxins.
I'd be quite happy to see both redeemed.

It clould be interesting for another character, It would be a bad story direction for Sylvanas.
Why?

Faine
01-07-2012, 06:00 PM
So you think she will kill herself again to stay with the undead?

Seeing as how she got a glimpse of hell/whatever the afterlife is after she offed herself last time and it scared her shitless, I kinda doubt it.

Tauren Paly
01-07-2012, 06:00 PM
redemption comes with a price, always does. The thing with sylvanas is, she has nothing to loose. No children, no husband, and her only family has broken all ties with her in her current state. No friends, her own kingdom is a blotch on the land itself, and she would treat her own people as cannon fodder.
So really, what has she got to loose in order to redeem herself?

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 06:01 PM
redemption comes with a price, always does. The thing with sylvanas is, she has nothing to loose. No children, no husband, and her only family has broken all ties with her in her current state. No friends, her own kingdom is a blotch on the land itself, and she would treat her own people as cannon fodder.
So really, what has she got to loose in order to redeem herself?
Her mental damage and fear of death.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 06:01 PM
So you think she will kill herself again to stay with the undead?

Frankly, I don't see why more people aren't willingly turning themselves into undead (not necessarily Forsaken) simply for the lifespan extension. A necromancer could make a pretty penny going around and offering to turn people into undead so they can live for a few thousand years.

cosmictimelion
01-07-2012, 06:02 PM
redemption comes with a price, always does. The thing with sylvanas is, she has nothing to loose. No children, no husband, and her only family has broken all ties with her in her current state. No friends, her own kingdom is a blotch on the land itself, and she would treat her own people as cannon fodder.
So really, what has she got to loose in order to redeem herself?

Her life?

Who wants to spend an eternity being ripped apart by shadowfiends?

Revenant
01-07-2012, 06:04 PM
I'll bite against my better judgement.

I'm guessing that "successfully redeemed" means to remove all controversial character developments from her character, and convert her back to when Xilizhra fell in love with her.

First off, what is her character? At first it was "We will find our own path in this world, dreadlord, and slaughter anyone who stands in our way!" and a revenge plot against Arthas (and maybe all life). She joins the Horde as an alliance of convenience.

After Arthas died, her purpose was done and she tried to kill herself, only to find something that she did not like. So, now she conquers things to make sure that she will remain an immortal corpse.

How do we get the living family-loving ranger-general back? ...I don't know or care.

Faine
01-07-2012, 06:05 PM
Frankly, I don't see why more people aren't willingly turning themselves into undead (not necessarily Forsaken) simply for the lifespan extension. A necromancer could make a pretty penny going around and offering to turn people into undead so they can live for a few thousand years.

Personally, I would set up a delayed rising with a necromancer. Give him a small deposit of some gold and then when I die, he turns me into a Forsaken or whatever and if I'm satisfied, I give him the other half of the gold.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 06:06 PM
Frankly, I don't see why more people aren't willingly turning themselves into undead (not necessarily Forsaken) simply for the lifespan extension. A necromancer could make a pretty penny going around and offering to turn people into undead so they can live for a few thousand years.

Different people think differently, people like K'T enjoy to gain power and immortal life as undead. Many of them were not doing well before they join the Scourge.

But Sylvanas is different, she was fair to say, a good person before she got killed, she also loved her people quite well. She was the the ranger general of Silvermoon but just some banshee's leader after being killed.

During the war she saw those undead kill her people. After she was turned into undead she was forced to help the Scourge siege her homeland. So she hated her life so much.

I will say there's still some good in her, she still had love to her sister, her homeland and her people otherwise she won't hate herself being undead, but redemption won't be a good idea.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 06:08 PM
Different people think differently, people like K'T enjoy to gain power and immortal life as undead. Many of them were not doing well before they join the Scourge.

But Sylvanas is different, she was fair to say, a good person before she got killed, she also loved her people quite well. She was the the ranger general of Silvermoon but just some banshee's leader after being killed.

During the war she saw those undead kill her people. After she was turned into undead she was forced to help the Scourge siege her homeland. So she hated her life so much.

I will say there's still some good in her, she still had love to her sister, her homeland and her people otherwise she won't hate herself being undead, but redemption won't be a good idea.

You'd think at the very least Night Elves who lost their immortality would be looking into necromancy as a consumer alternative.

Erthad
01-07-2012, 06:09 PM
Frankly, I don't see why more people aren't willingly turning themselves into undead (not necessarily Forsaken) simply for the lifespan extension. A necromancer could make a pretty penny going around and offering to turn people into undead so they can live for a few thousand years. there is probably a huge stigma associated with undeath because of the Scourge.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 06:11 PM
You'd think at the very least Night Elves who lost their immortality would be looking into necromancy as a consumer alternative.

Not sure, the dreadlords didn't use the plague or massive necromancy during the Third War(maybe it got something to do with Ner'zhul) so we don't see nightelf undead much.

Seems like the Scourge was not enjoying bring some nightelves to their side, not sure why.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 06:14 PM
there is probably a huge stigma associated with undeath because of the Scourge.

That's the perfect hook for a story.

There was a significant bloc of night elves desperate to recapture their immortality, who pretty much disappeared after Staghelm grew Darnassus. I say they should turn to increasingly desperate and countercultural attempts to recapture their immortality, and Necromancy is one of the most surefire ways to extend one's lifespan.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 06:17 PM
So you think she will kill herself again to stay with the undead?
What I think is that she won't be accidentally be de-undeadified.

And really, the way Sylvanas is in Cataclysm is not that controversial of a development. All that has changed are the weapons at her disposal and yes, her goal of staying away from Hell at all costs, I guess.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 06:17 PM
That's the perfect hook for a story.

There was a significant bloc of night elves desperate to recapture their immortality, who pretty much disappeared after Staghelm grew Darnassus. I say they should turn to increasingly desperate and countercultural attempts to recapture their immortality, and Necromancy is one of the most surefire ways to extend one's lifespan.

Not just immortality, but also bring back the one they loved.

I once made a story in 2007 about the Lich King promised Fandral to bring his son back, let him see some image of his son and use him to infiltrate Darnassus and badly crippled the nightelves.

What I think is that she won't be accidentally be de-undeadified.

She's a banshee, she could possess a living body.

cosmictimelion
01-07-2012, 06:22 PM
That's the perfect hook for a story.

There was a significant bloc of night elves desperate to recapture their immortality, who pretty much disappeared after Staghelm grew Darnassus. I say they should turn to increasingly desperate and countercultural attempts to recapture their immortality, and Necromancy is one of the most surefire ways to extend one's lifespan.

According to many night elf fanatics on the Moon Guard forums, necromancy goes against everything the night elves stand for.

The tears would flood the planet.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 06:24 PM
According to many night elf fanatics on the Moon Guard forums, necromancy goes against everything the night elves stand for.

The tears would flood the planet.

Part of me really wants to spite the night elf fanatics who tend to have an absolutely warped idea of night elf society, but I've already been over the fact that the night elves use necromancy many, many times before.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 06:24 PM
According to many night elf fanatics on the Moon Guard forums, necromancy goes against everything the night elves stand for.

The tears would flood the planet.

Necromancy also goes against everything the humans stand for, but power and maybe eternal life can surely catch some individuals's mind.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 06:27 PM
Personally, I want to see Sylvanas join Arthas in the local hell. She's committed her fair share of atrocities, and it will take a lot for Blizzard to convince me that she has atoned for all of her sins.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 06:28 PM
That's the perfect hook for a story.

There was a significant bloc of night elves desperate to recapture their immortality, who pretty much disappeared after Staghelm grew Darnassus. I say they should turn to increasingly desperate and countercultural attempts to recapture their immortality, and Necromancy is one of the most surefire ways to extend one's lifespan.
For some reason, the Aerenal elves from the Eberron setting come to mind.

I'd love to see this theory in the Story Forums. Who cares what some crazies on Moan Hard, er Moon Guard, think.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 06:29 PM
For some reason, the Aerenal elves from the Eberron setting come to mind.

I'd love to see this theory in the Story Forums.

Necromancy can also bring the dead lover back, while Arthas' case is creepy.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 06:39 PM
I'm still in the camp of Sylvanas not having too many drastic changes other than the "bulwark against Hell" thing.

If she didn't have the Blight and didn't have the Val'kyr, her attitude would not have changed. She just wouldn't have been able to accomplish her goals as fast.

HalfElfDragon
01-07-2012, 06:42 PM
That's the perfect hook for a story.

There was a significant bloc of night elves desperate to recapture their immortality, who pretty much disappeared after Staghelm grew Darnassus. I say they should turn to increasingly desperate and countercultural attempts to recapture their immortality, and Necromancy is one of the most surefire ways to extend one's lifespan.
Sounds like a good hook for a night elf death knight.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 06:43 PM
Necromancy can also bring the dead lover back, while Arthas' case is creepy.

Yeah, I mean, he did resurrect his horse.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 06:45 PM
I'm still in the camp of Sylvanas not having too many drastic changes other than the "bulwark against Hell" thing.

If she didn't have the Blight and didn't have the Val'kyr, her attitude would not have changed. She just wouldn't have been able to accomplish her goals as fast.

Yeah, but I think she still knew what she did was wrong, because she still thought Arthas was wrong.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 06:52 PM
Yeah, but I think she still knew what she did was wrong, because she still thought Arthas was wrong.
Not really, considering that she has tunnel vision when it comes to being wronged by Arthas.

Sylvanas doesn't realise or doesn't care that what she did was wrong. Why should she?

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 06:57 PM
Sylvanas doesn't realise or doesn't care that what she did was wrong. Why should she?

I will say she still knew that fact, just like Arthas did. She still hates Arthas and the Scourge, they did the same thing to her and her people like she did to some others.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 07:00 PM
I will say she still knew that fact, just like Arthas did. She still hates Arthas and the Scourge, they did the same thing to her and her people like she did to some others.
Note the bolded part. That's the extent of her caring.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:00 PM
Not really, considering that she has tunnel vision when it comes to being wronged by Arthas.

Sylvanas doesn't realise or doesn't care that what she did was wrong. Why should she?
She should be able to learn.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 07:01 PM
She should be able to learn.
For what reason?

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 07:02 PM
Note the bolded part. That's the extent of her caring.

She may not care much about that now, but she still knew that fact.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:02 PM
For what reason?
Out of game or in-game?

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 07:03 PM
Out of game or in-game?
In-game and in-lore, of course.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:04 PM
In-game and in-lore, of course.
Have her figure out that the "hell" thing was self-imposed and only brought on by her mental entanglement, not undeath. And have those in Pandaria untangle her mind and preferably those of many of the Forsaken. Thusly, she'll be able to get past the madness encroaching on her and in fact be redeemed. If she had some trial of sorts to help Arthas escape as a final means of letting go of her hatred, it'd be a perfect ending.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 07:07 PM
Have her figure out that the "hell" thing was self-imposed and only brought on by her mental entanglement, not undeath. And have those in Pandaria untangle her mind and preferably those of many of the Forsaken. Thusly, she'll be able to get past the madness encroaching on her and in fact be redeemed. If she had some trial of sorts to help Arthas escape as a final means of letting go of her hatred, it'd be a perfect ending.
While you're at it, why not have Go'el the Superorc become Warchief again?

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 07:08 PM
Being redeemed would destroy her character..... It should never happen.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:08 PM
While you're at it, why not have Go'el the Superorc become Warchief again?
Maybe we can redeem Garrosh too and it'd be unnecessary. Though a substantive response to my idea would also be pleasant.

Being redeemed would destroy her character..... It should never happen.
I see nothing of value in her characterization right now.

Erthad
01-07-2012, 07:10 PM
I still don't see why redeeming her would be a good idea.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:13 PM
I still don't see why redeeming her would be a good idea.
It can keep her intact as a character and I see great potential in that story idea.

Porimlys
01-07-2012, 07:13 PM
I still don't see why redeeming her would be a good idea.

This

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 07:13 PM
I dont want Sylvanas to die and go to that hell. Unlike most villains who rode highway horses 200 kmph in their way to the corruption while "human", Sylvanas was aloof and cold but good, wanted death but she was denied of it, when she finally expired and went to heaven she got her soul pulled back and ripped from her body, she is denied of her vengance, kills herself and goes to hell and THEN she goes Lich Queen

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't like the idea that Sylvanas got a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Future just in time to redeem herself, while Arthas gets left to his fate.

Is there no justice?

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 07:15 PM
Maybe we can redeem Garrosh too and it'd be unnecessary. Though a substantive response to my idea would also be pleasant.


I see nothing of value in her characterization right now.
Now don't get me wrong, I am very much intolerant of views and opinions that I disagree with. But for now, I can only say that we can agree to disagree.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:15 PM
I don't like the idea that Sylvanas got a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Future just in time to redeem herself, while Arthas gets left to his fate.

Is there no justice?
Justice here would include freeing Arthas.

Now don't get me wrong, I am very much intolerant of views and opinions that I disagree with. But for now, I can only say that we can agree to disagree.
Then we may do so.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 07:17 PM
Justice here would include freeing Arthas.



Justice here is a great French house band.

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 07:18 PM
Sylvanas is perfect currently and it seems she is one of the few characters that they are not screwing over with progression and soon i am sure we will see her do something major.

I am guessing if Garrosh and Varian are going to be at Pandaria in MoP through-out the expansion i could see Sylvanas taking advantage of that and gaining more power within the Horde.

HalfElfDragon
01-07-2012, 07:21 PM
It can keep her intact as a character.

It doesn't really sound like you're all that interested in keeping her character intact.

I see great potential in that story idea.
I see little. There's far more potential in her current villainous state.

I like that there's a faction leader who isn't a good guy. That's interesting, certainly more so than another redeemed character.

Justice here is a great French house band.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThKNt-GY1ww

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 07:22 PM
It doesn't really sound like you're all that interested in keeping her character intact.


I see little. There's far more potential in her current villainous state.

I like that there's a faction leader who isn't a good guy. That's interesting, certainly more so than another redeemed character.

This.

Its another reason why i see so much potential for Gallywix and Moira.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 07:25 PM
I don't like the idea that Sylvanas got a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Future just in time to redeem herself, while Arthas gets left to his fate.

Is there no justice?

Arthas was already burning ships before he got to Frostmourne

Sylvanas fell defending her land


I think Arthas gets more love because we played with his "good" side. With Sylvanas she was the "villain" when she first appeared and then we played with the "evil" version

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:26 PM
I see little. There's far more potential in her current villainous state.

I like that there's a faction leader who isn't a good guy. That's interesting, certainly more so than another redeemed character.
Warcraft has extremely little in the way of redeemed characters, from what I can tell. They're either just generically good/middling from the beginning or we kill them.

Sarahmoo
01-07-2012, 07:27 PM
You can't redeem these villains. Be it Sylvanas or Illidan or Arthas or whoever else people like. "Redemption" is such a complete cop-out in most fiction. They've already done what they've done, you can't undo their pasts. Short of just retroactively changing the story, their beds have already been made. They should lie in them.

And I know you're not actually supposed to call Sylvanas a villain because that's not nice, but that's what she is. In WoW, players have assassinated enemies and destroyed entire civilizations for offenses much slighter than the ones on her current record. But hey that's cool we can forget about all that because now they're going to be nice!

Gadinhad
01-07-2012, 07:31 PM
You can't redeem these villains. Be it Sylvanas or Illidan or Arthas or whoever else people like. "Redemption" is such a complete cop-out in most fiction. They've already done what they've done, you can't undo their pasts. Short of just retroactively changing the story, their beds have already been made. They should lie in them.

And I know you're not actually supposed to call Sylvanas a villain because that's not nice, but that's what she is. In WoW, players have assassinated enemies and destroyed entire civilizations for offenses much slighter than the ones on her current record. But hey that's cool we can forget about all that because now they're going to be nice!

Illidan doesn't need to be redeemed honestly. He's had 10,000 years of imprisonment, he's helped the Night Elves quell the legion, he's gotten begrudging approval from Malfurion before he left, he's pretty decent now.

He's already been redeemed for the most part. If he comes back, we need the old Illidan, cunning and masterful, not someone who's sole purpose is redeeming himself, that'd just retract from his quality.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 07:32 PM
I think that they should make her the key to Azeroth eventual salvation because Blizz hasnt totally done that with another female queen bitch :raptor::raptor::raptor:

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:32 PM
You can't redeem these villains. Be it Sylvanas or Illidan or Arthas or whoever else people like. "Redemption" is such a complete cop-out in most fiction. They've already done what they've done, you can't undo their pasts. Short of just retroactively changing the story, their beds have already been made. They should lie in them.

I vehemently disagree. Everyone should have a chance for redemption, and no sin is too grievous to atone for.

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 07:32 PM
The only way Arthas will ever get involved in the future would be if still had a part of himself in the crown and we hear of him and Bolvar currently fighting for control of the Lich King or we see alternate time Arthas again.

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 07:33 PM
You can't redeem these villains. Be it Sylvanas or Illidan or Arthas or whoever else people like. "Redemption" is such a complete cop-out in most fiction. They've already done what they've done, you can't undo their pasts. Short of just retroactively changing the story, their beds have already been made. They should lie in them.

"Vader's Redemption."

HalfElfDragon
01-07-2012, 07:33 PM
Reminds me of how they tried to turn Sylar into a villain in heroes. They failed to take notice of the fact that his villainy is a key component of what made him interesting.

Gadinhad
01-07-2012, 07:34 PM
I vehemently disagree. Everyone should have a chance for redemption, and no sin is too grievous to atone for.

Having every character redeemed, even by death, would muddle the story too much. It would be like "Oh, he's a bastard, but we all know he'll turn out fine in the end."

You need to accept the fact that there will be bastards in the story. Variety is the spice of fiction.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:36 PM
Having every character redeemed, even by death, would muddle the story too much. It would be like "Oh, he's a bastard, but we all know he'll turn out fine in the end."

You need to accept the fact that there will be bastards in the story. Variety is the spice of fiction.
Yes, they're everywhere else in Azeroth. I'm asking for one to be different.

Omacron
01-07-2012, 07:40 PM
Yes, they're everywhere else in Azeroth. I'm asking for one to be different.

What would be different is a lack of redemption, honestly.

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 07:41 PM
Yes, they're everywhere else in Azeroth. I'm asking for one to be different.

The only person that could be redeemed and it be successful currently would be Illidan.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 07:46 PM
What would be different is a lack of redemption, honestly.
I can think of incredibly few redemption stories in WoW. In fact, only that one satyr in Ashenvale comes to mind, and he dies during it.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 07:46 PM
The only person that could be redeemed and it be successful currently would be Illidan.

*Could have been

Blizzard stapled an evil ball to his hand in Burning Crusade. Now the only way to redeem him is to have him hijack Nozdormu's TARDIS after the Well of Eternity instance, transforming him into Time-Pirate-Illidan!

Now with eyepatch and lovable avian sidekick!

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 07:46 PM
What would be different is a lack of redemption, honestly.

Redemptions arent that common in WC

The only person that could be redeemed and it be successful currently would be Illidan.

He is in the Sylvanas level or worst. People seem to ignore that because of how his story was handled in end and the fact he isnt in Lordaeron, though

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 07:48 PM
*Could have been

Blizzard stapled an evil ball to his hand in Burning Crusade. Now the only way to redeem him is to have him hijack Nozdormu's TARDIS after the Well of Eternity instance, transforming him into Time-Pirate-Illidan!

Now with eyepatch and lovable avian sidekick!

He is half Demon there is such a large chance that he is simply within the Twisting Nether after his death. Illidan has been proven time and time again that he has done what he has done for his people even if it caused him to become insane in the end due to Guldan's skull.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 07:50 PM
He is half Demon there is such a large chance that he is simply within the Twisting Nether after his death. Illidan has been proven time and time again that he has done what he has done for his people even if it caused him to become insane in the end due to Guldan's skull.

Right, right! But he did ultimately go insane. Shouldn't have, but he did! So now we need the Illidan from the dead timeline that we stole the Dragon Soul from to come BACK TO THE FUTURE!

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 07:57 PM
He is half Demon there is such a large chance that he is simply within the Twisting Nether after his death. Illidan has been proven time and time again that he has done what he has done for his people even if it caused him to become insane in the end due to Guldan's skull.

More like "he has done what he has done to become the hero of his people and get MOAR POWAH btw"

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 07:58 PM
More like "he has done what he has done to become the hero of his people and get MOAR POWAH btw"

In equal parts? I'd say yes.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 08:01 PM
In equal parts? I'd say yes.

Nah. He need ms them so they can praise him, just like Sylvanas needs the Forsaken as meat shield. Its just Sylvanas is in Lordaeron

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 08:02 PM
More like "he has done what he has done to become the hero of his people and get MOAR POWAH btw"

Still Sylvanas deserves to progress the way she already is and Arthas needs to stay dead or some back for a cameo in a book like Blackmoore and i could only see them taking Illidan from any point in time over Arthas.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 08:03 PM
Nah. He need ms them so they can praise him, just like Sylvanas needs the Forsaken as meat shield. Its just Sylvanas is in Lordaeron

Craving the love of your people is nowhere near the same thing as treating them like a meatshield.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 08:06 PM
Redemptions arent that common in WC



He is in the Sylvanas level or worst. People seem to ignore that because of how his story was handled in end and the fact he isnt in Lordaeron, though

He probably means it would be different for a franchise to do less redemption, and he'd be pretty right about that.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 08:07 PM
Still Sylvanas deserves to progress the way she already is and Arthas needs to stay dead or some back for a cameo in a book like Blackmoore and i could only see them taking Illidan from any point in time over Arthas.

Im just responding that if Illidan can get redemption, and i mean actual redemption, not just come back from dead, the Sylvanas can too. Arthas and Illidan were riding towards their respective destines, Sylvanas bike got blighted in her way to heaven

Craving the love of your people is nowhere near the same thing as treating them like a meatshield.

Maybe but her actions actually have helped the Forsaken. Each time Illidan tries to do something he actually makes it worse

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 08:07 PM
He is half Demon there is such a large chance that he is simply within the Twisting Nether after his death. Illidan has been proven time and time again that he has done what he has done for his people even if it caused him to become insane in the end due to Guldan's skull.

No, he is demon.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 08:10 PM
Im just responding that if Illidan can get redemption, and i mean actual redemption, not just come back from dead, the Sylvanas can too. Arthas and Illidan were riding towards their respective destines, Sylvanas bike got blighted in her way to heaven

Except that there's an obvious difference between the two. Sylvanas has shown time and again that she's completely surpassed Illidan in terms of selfishness.

I don't really care if Illidan comes back or not, but it would piss me off less than Sylvanas being redeemed.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 08:12 PM
Except that there's an obvious difference between the two. Sylvanas has shown time and again that she's completely surpassed Illidan in terms of selfishness.

I don't really care if Illidan comes back or not, but it would piss me off less than Sylvanas being redeemed.

Again, his actions have caused more trouble than good, especially to his people. Sylvanas hasnt (for her people)

Ku'ja
01-07-2012, 08:13 PM
Im just responding that if Illidan can get redemption, and i mean actual redemption, not just come back from dead, the Sylvanas can too. Arthas and Illidan were riding towards their respective destines, Sylvanas bike got blighted in her way to heaven



Maybe but her actions actually have helped the Forsaken. Each time Illidan tries to do something he actually makes it worse

Sylvanas being redeemed though would mess up the progression that they have lined for her which has been obvious since WoTLK and she is better as it. Saying that she got blighted on her way to heaven means nothing if currently she doesn't mind killing all living creatures with her plague now does it. Illidan actually fit into the Anti-Hero well as its why he is so popular with most Warcraft fans and going by what Metzen said i am guessing in the future they will have a story worked for his return.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 08:15 PM
Again, his actions have caused more trouble than good, especially to his people. Sylvanas hasnt (for her people)

Having the Alliance, Horde, and Argent Crusade breathing down her neck won't be a very good future outcome. (And it's pretty likely to happen, the only reason Garrosh hasn't done anything is because he's busy in Kalimdor.)

To be honest it seems more like Illidan's own fuck ups have turned upside down against him, rather than really damning his own people. (Azshara's actually done worse to damn the Night Elves than Illidan, for example.)

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 08:17 PM
Again, his actions have caused more trouble than good, especially to his people. Sylvanas hasnt (for her people)

Her people are not the ones that she is ruling over. Just by the way.

Also, Illidan's actions have not always had negative repercussions for the Night Elves so much as for himself. He consumed the Skull of Gul'dan and saved Felwood from Tichondrius, for example, with no adverse consequences for the people therein. All that was lost in that encounter was his soul.

But I agree. Illidan is now beyond redemption. He was a psychopath by the time we got to Outland.

Time-Pirate-Illidan. Make it fucking happen.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 08:18 PM
Except that there's an obvious difference between the two. Sylvanas has shown time and again that she's completely surpassed Illidan in terms of selfishness.

I don't really care if Illidan comes back or not, but it would piss me off less than Sylvanas being redeemed.
I still can't see how her getting past her selfishness would be a bad thing, I admit.

Erthad
01-07-2012, 08:24 PM
I still can't see how her getting past her selfishness would be a bad thing, I admit. Because I think everyone is tired of selfless heroes, people who don't give a shit about their people is refreshing.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 08:25 PM
Because I think everyone is tired of selfless heroes, people who don't give a shit about their people is refreshing.
Not to me, when they're ostensibly on my side.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 08:26 PM
I still can't see how her getting past her selfishness would be a bad thing, I admit.

Because to forgive and forget things like Southshore, Gilneas and, yes, even the retaking of Lordaeron is a repugnant idea. Such crimes should be paid for. It's not just about her 'getting past her selfishness.' Her selfishness is just one part of what makes her a vile character.

Redemption would have to mean more than just her figuring out that being mean to others is bad. She needs to suffer. She needs to be brought down low. Maybe when she's been reduced to a pitiful beast, writhing in the refuse of her own sorrow and self-hatred, I might be brought to pity her. Maybe then we can forgive. Not before.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 08:26 PM
Her people are not the ones that she is ruling over. Just by the way.

Also, Illidan's actions have not always had negative repercussions for the Night Elves so much as for himself. He consumed the Skull of Gul'dan and saved Felwood from Tichondrius, for example, with no adverse consequences for the people therein. All that was lost in that encounter was his soul.

But I agree. Illidan is now beyond redemption. He was a psychopath by the time we got to Outland.

Time-Pirate-Illidan. Make it fucking happen.

The forsaken are her people now, and either she helped the blood elves too

Skull that wouldnt be there if someone had NOT made a second well, and he still did it to be a hero

But I'd rather get demon Illidan returned and purified by Elune, because that way it would mean that Illidan learned something after screwing so many times If we get time pirate Illidan we are going to bring a problem, specially if he follows us right after WoE instance (well vials and no idea of the trouble)

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 08:27 PM
Because to forgive and forget things like Southshore, Gilneas and, yes, even the retaking of Lordaeron is a repugnant idea. Such crimes should be paid for. It's not just about her 'getting past her selfishness.' Her selfishness is just one part of what makes her a vile character.

Redemption would have to mean more than just her figuring out that being mean to others is bad. She needs to suffer. She needs to be brought down low. Maybe when she's been reduced to a pitiful beast, writhing in the refuse of her own sorrow and self-hatred, I might be brought to pity her. Maybe then we can forgive. Not before.
To cause such pain is in and of itself worthless. The only paying she could do of any value is to try to improve the world; at least that would begin to concretely make up for her past actions. And I more meant getting past her selfishness plus everything else.

Erthad
01-07-2012, 08:30 PM
Not to me, when they're ostensibly on my side. Sides don't matter. This shouldn't be a red vs blue QQ thing.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 08:31 PM
and he still did it to be a hero

You are ascribing motives that are not there. Why do you say this? We have no more reason to believe this than that he did it because he cared about his homeland.

That said:

Skull that wouldnt be there if someone had NOT made a second well

Demons would have returned in any case.

Look at me. Making a reasonable assertion that is nevertheless not necessarily grounded in actual fact.


As for the problems Time Pirate Illidan would bring, well, what's a story without conflict? Let's deal with these new, exciting problems in new, exciting ways!

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 08:36 PM
Because to forgive and forget things like Southshore, Gilneas and, yes, even the retaking of Lordaeron is a repugnant idea. Such crimes should be paid for. It's not just about her 'getting past her selfishness.' Her selfishness is just one part of what makes her a vile character.

Redemption would have to mean more than just her figuring out that being mean to others is bad. She needs to suffer. She needs to be brought down low. Maybe when she's been reduced to a pitiful beast, writhing in the refuse of her own sorrow and self-hatred, I might be brought to pity her. Maybe then we can forgive. Not before.

"It's always wrong to hate, but it's never wrong to love"-Lady Gaga. Applies even if it is a videogame

Bringing back Alleria would do wonders to her, if they want us to make us feel sorry for her. We also need to see what happens with Kerrigan regarding to her sins, because Kerrigan has done the same things that Sylvanas but xBillions

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 08:36 PM
Not to me, when they're ostensibly on my side.

Maybe you should broaden your horizon just a little bit then...

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 08:37 PM
"It's always wrong to hate, but it's never wrong to love"-Lady Gaga. Applies even if it is a videogame

Bringing back Alleria would do wonders to her, if they want us to make us feel sorry for her. We also need to see what happens with Kerrigan regarding to her sins, because Kerrigan has done the same things that Sylvanas but xBillions
This does work rather well, truth be told.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 08:45 PM
I feel I'm the only one who is the least interested in seeing Sylvanas reunite with her sisters. I just can't expect anything other than something bland or expected since I'm sure it's been fanfic'd a hundred times over.

That and seeing sibling reunions doesn't tug on my heartstrings as much as, say, seeing a son witness his own mother dying. Or seeing a mother witness her own husband get torn in half by a giant insectoid monster. (And subsequently seeing her own daughter get slaughtered in her own homeland.)

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 08:45 PM
We also need to see what happens with Kerrigan regarding to her sins, because Kerrigan has done the same things that Sylvanas but xBillions

Kerrigan had the (dis)advantage of having whatever physiological aspect of her nervous system controls human empathy literally be deactivated. That's something like a physical doom or damnation, and one that would likely be impossible to avoid. Her karmic diagnostics are uncertain.


Bringing back Alleria would do wonders to her, if they want us to make us feel sorry for her.

I don't want to see her break down and cry because her sister gives her a stern talking to.

Look, maybe I should elaborate? I'm reading Dance with Dragons right now. Of the Song of Ice and Fire? I just read the first chapter on Reek. It has this character, identified as Reek, locked in a dungeon, mad with fear and sorrow, guiltily chewing on a live rat. He's in utter darkness, so utterly defeated that he is afraid that if he's caught eating this rat, the guards will take it from him.

Now, when I read those first few paragraphs, I thought that Reek was, in fact, still the loathsome bastard son of Roose Bolton, who had posed as a figure called Reek in earlier books. This guy is a monster, who I would never have imagined myself feeling pity for. But when I read about him being reduced to such a pathetic mess, I genuinely felt sorry for him.

Of course, I was wrong. That wasn't the Bastard of Bolton. But the point is that I would have pitied him if it was. Whoever it was.

I don't want an excuse or even an outlet for hate at Sylvanas. I don't necessarily even want her to suffer. But if she is to be redeemed, the only way I would be able to feel okay with it would be if she was first brought low enough to pity.

Bryn
01-07-2012, 08:47 PM
Could a surprise reunion and confrontation with Alleria shock her into rethinking a few things? I don’t know. Edge of Night implies that her sisters are the only lingering emotional attachment she has, but it seems unlikely that whatever internal conflict they awoke in her would make her care any more about the Forsaken. If she still sees her people as tools after everything they’ve been through together, I have no idea what could change that.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 08:48 PM
You are ascribing motives that are not there. Why do you say this? We have no more reason to believe this than that he did it because he cared about his homeland.

That said:



Demons would have returned in any case.

Look at me. Making a reasonable assertion that is nevertheless not necessarily grounded in actual fact.


As for the problems Time Pirate Illidan would bring, well, what's a story without conflict? Let's deal with these new, exciting problems in new, exciting ways!


1-WC3. Tyrande frees him, says his people need him, he says he'll do it for het not for his people. Next mission, Arthas tells him that he'll get the power he wants from the skull

2-No high elves, no Dalaran, no Medivh, no orcs, no Gul'dan skull in Azeroth

3-No, just no. I hope that idea doesnt even cross in Metzen head

Erthad
01-07-2012, 08:48 PM
I feel I'm the only one who is the least interested in seeing Sylvanas reunite with her sisters. I just can't expect anything other than something bland or expected since I'm sure it's been fanfic'd a hundred times over.

That and seeing sibling reunions doesn't tug on my heartstrings as much as, say, seeing a son witness his own mother dying. Or seeing a mother witness her own husband get torn in half by a giant insectoid monster. (And subsequently seeing her own daughter get slaughtered in her own homeland.) I agree.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 08:48 PM
I feel I'm the only one who is the least interested in seeing Sylvanas reunite with her sisters. I just can't expect anything other than something bland or expected since I'm sure it's been fanfic'd a hundred times over.

That and seeing sibling reunions doesn't tug on my heartstrings as much as, say, seeing a son witness his own mother dying. Or seeing a mother witness her own husband get torn in half by a giant insectoid monster. (And subsequently seeing her own daughter get slaughtered in her own homeland.)
All can do tugging, but only the reunion can do it in a positive way.

I don't want an excuse or even an outlet for hate at Sylvanas. I don't necessarily even want her to suffer. But if she is to be redeemed, the only way I would be able to feel okay with it would be if she was first brought low enough to pity.
Would her own realization of the pain she's caused to others, if it brought on a reaction like this, be enough?

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 08:52 PM
I feel I'm the only one who is the least interested in seeing Sylvanas reunite with her sisters. I just can't expect anything other than something bland or expected since I'm sure it's been fanfic'd a hundred times over.

That and seeing sibling reunions doesn't tug on my heartstrings as much as, say, seeing a son witness his own mother dying. Or seeing a mother witness her own husband get torn in half by a giant insectoid monster. (And subsequently seeing her own daughter get slaughtered in her own homeland.)

Dont spend her Valkyrs until Alleria shows up. Make apparent emotinal familiar moment until Allerias shoves her sword through Sylvanas heart. When she gets revived after that make her change of heart start there

Kerrigan had the (dis)advantage of having whatever physiological aspect of her nervous system controls human empathy literally be deactivated. That's something like a physical doom or damnation, and one that would likely be impossible to avoid. Her karmic diagnostics are uncertain.

Kinda like undeath

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 08:52 PM
All can do tugging, but only the reunion can do it in a positive way.


Would her own realization of the pain she's caused to others, if it brought on a reaction like this, be enough?

Maybe, but the reality is that she will never realize it. She has never been that kind of character even in life.

She doesn't care about other people, and has always been a selfish character at her core. That's just how it is.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 08:53 PM
Maybe, but the reality is that she will never realize it. She has never been that kind of character even in life.

She doesn't care about other people, and has always been a selfish character at her core. That's just how it is.
I wish to change that. It's a poor core, if it's even there, which I'm not certain it is.

RobLore
01-07-2012, 08:54 PM
We really don't need some stupid time travel for Illidan to return.

Illidan is a demon = demons are either reborn or ressurected in the Twisting Nether when they die = Illidan can return in the expansion where we deal with Sargeras and/or Kil'jaedan.

After that, I want Illidan to lead some kind of secretive azerothian elite order bent on assassinating demonic spies, agents and infilitrators. Like the satyr guy who was the leader of the Cenarions in Felwood.

And Sylvanas getting redeemed would ruin her character.
I liked that the story goes towards Sylvanas doing anything to prevent her true death because she knows where she will end up and who she will share that place with.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 08:56 PM
I wish to change that. It's a poor core, if it's even there, which I'm not certain it is.

Of course you do, but your desire to change it doesn't match well with the theme of Warcraft. I kinda think that's why people are disagreeing with you on this, because it's unrealistic and incompatible with Warcraft's setting.

Also, if characters just kept getting redeemed then that would undermine the reason for a Hell to exist, it exists for a reason and the writers have seemed to make it clear why it does exist. (BECAUSE BAD PEOPLE DESERVE TO GO THERE.)

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 08:57 PM
Of course you do, but your desire to change it doesn't match well with the theme of Warcraft. I kinda think that's why people are disagreeing with you on this, because it's unrealistic and incompatible with Warcraft's setting.

Also, if characters just kept getting redeemed then that would undermine the reason for a Hell to exist, it exists for a reason and the writers have seemed to make it clear why it does exist. (BECAUSE BAD PEOPLE DESERVE TO GO THERE.)
There is no fucking reason for it ever to exist and there never fucking will be, no matter how much idiocy is spewed forth to cover its lack of justification.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 08:58 PM
Dont spend her Valkyrs until Alleria shows up. Make apparent emotinal familiar moment until Allerias shoves her sword through Sylvanas heart. When she gets revived after that make her change of heart start there

That would completely ruin the moment. I mean, at that point, why bother?


Kinda like undeath

Not really. Emotion and pity have been shown to persist through undeath. The Overmind specifically engineered Kerrigan to be an utterly cold killing machine. Arthas just bound Sylvanas' essence to the physical world.

In any case, in Warcraft the body is not the seat of the mind. In Warcraft the mind exists externally, it would seem, or else things like ghosts, spirits, Liches and Death Knights wouldn't exist.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 09:00 PM
Mustrum, I am curious as to your answer to my earlier question.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 09:03 PM
Mustrum, I am curious as to your answer to my earlier question.

The "Would her crippling realization that her crimes have destroyed countless innocents be enough suffering?" one? No. I would feel no pity for her then. After all, she would only just be realizing something that we have known for some time. No, she needs to suffer personally. She needs to be reduced to less than a slave. Then she can be raised back up in redemption.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 09:04 PM
The "Would her crippling realization that her crimes have destroyed countless innocents be enough suffering?" one? No. I would feel no pity for her then. After all, she would only just be realizing something that we have known for some time. No, she needs to suffer personally. She needs to be reduced to less than a slave. Then she can be raised back up in redemption.
I would consider that to be suffering personally.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 09:05 PM
There is no fucking reason for it ever to exist and there never fucking will be, no matter how much idiocy is spewed forth to cover its lack of justification.

In your own opinion there isn't, however it's easy to believe there is a reason and the writers have decided to go with it. (Even if it sounds a little stupid.)

That's pretty much all this thread has been, your conjecture.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 09:06 PM
In your own opinion there isn't, however it's easy to believe there is a reason and the writers have decided to go with it. (Even if it sounds a little stupid.)
That's pretty much all this thread has been, your conjecture.
I will not equivocate, and I will not accept any universe having this sort of thing exist unless it's treated for the unfathomable evil that it is. If I could purge all cultural traditions preserving this vile tumor of an idea within the human psyche, I would do so in a heartbeat.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 09:07 PM
I would consider that to be suffering personally.

I wouldn't. I would call it coming to her senses. But not suffering. Well. Not enough to justify her actions. I misspeak. Not enough to atone for her actions.

Besides, it is not in her character to regret what she has done. It would take a calamity to change her perspective.

I will not equivocate, and I will not accept any universe having this sort of thing exist unless it's treated for the unfathomable evil that it is.

We do not know that hell is eternal. We only know that it is horrible.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 09:08 PM
Sylvanas was not selfish. Cold and aloof, even vain, but not selfish. She was "given to the cause" of protecting her homeland, hence the "arrows in a quiver mentality"

That would completely ruin the moment. I mean, at that point, why bother?




Not really. Emotion and pity have been shown to persist through undeath. The Overmind specifically engineered Kerrigan to be an utterly cold killing machine. Arthas just bound Sylvanas' essence to the physical world.

In any case, in Warcraft the body is not the seat of the mind. In Warcraft the mind exists externally, it would seem, or else things like ghosts, spirits, Liches and Death Knights wouldn't exist.

The point is that Alleria sees her as a monster and kills her to put her out of her misery (which would actually doom her). That her sister saw her like that and did that+the fact she ran out of Valkyrs make her mend her ways


And undeads mind definitely changes after dying, otherwise they wouldnt be doing what they do and DK wouldnt need to kill



Also I love how you ignored my response to Illidan and the Skull. Very classy

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 09:08 PM
I wouldn't. I would call it coming to her senses. But not suffering. Well. Not enough to justify her actions. I misspeak. Not enough to atone for her actions.

Besides, it is not in her character to regret what she has done. It would take a calamity to change her perspective.
So would that calamity then be acceptable? Though I admit I highly dislike having pain as a prerequisite for anything.

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 09:12 PM
The point is that Alleria sees her as a monster and kills her to put her out of her misery (which would actually doom her). That her sister saw her like that and did that+the fact she ran out of Valkyrs make her mend her ways

With all due respect, that's retarded.

Alleria: Oh, how could you! I called you sister, you monster, and look at what you have wrought!
*dramatic fratricide!*
Alleria: Now I am off to weep for my sister, who died so long ago fighting a monster in Quel'Thalas!
*tearful exit!*
Sylvanas gets up
Sylvanas: Oh dear me, what have I become! My own sister hates me! I'd better change my ways!
*goes on her merry way!*

And undeads mind definitely changes after dying, otherwise they wouldnt be doing what they do.

They change. But not as much as Kerrigan was changed. Kerrigan was physiologically modified so as to have no qualms about murdering her old friends. The undead in Warcraft are kept in check not by physiological, but psychic restrictions. Psychic restrictions which can be lifted.

Also I love how you ignored my response to Illidan and the Skull. Very classy

What response to Illidan and the Skull? The one where you vaguely said that Arthas told him that it would give him ultimate power and that Gul'dan would have lived forever without Sargeras' tomb? Oh, and where you just dismissed the time travel idea without explanation?

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 09:16 PM
With all due respect, that's retarded.

Alleria: Oh, how could you! I called you sister, you monster, and look at what you have wrought!
*dramatic fratricide!*
Alleria: Now I am off to weep for my sister, who died so long ago fighting a monster in Quel'Thalas!
*tearful exit!*
Sylvanas gets up
Sylvanas: Oh dear me, what have I become! My own sister hates me! I'd better change my ways!
*goes on her merry way!*

Yep, you're right on the money. It would be bland, predictable, and make Naruto fanfics look more credible by comparison.

I think it's also just my opinion, but I just don't find Sylvanas sympathetic anymore. She's lost a lot, but then again they were all expendable to her. I wouldn't be surprised if Alleria and Vareesa weren't any different and were also considered just as expendable.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 09:16 PM
No, you made it sound it sound stupid. And not vaguely, read WC3 script. You said Illidan did it for his people, i said he did it for power and gave you proof

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 09:17 PM
No, you made it sound it sound stupid. And you keep ignoring my answer to Illidan

READ MY EDIT, DUMBASS.

Apologies, good sir. It would appear that we have reached that level of 'debate' wherein we are not so much discussing the issue like level-headed individuals, but rather screaming at one another over the internet. So I believe I shall take my leave for now, and see if I can't make more sense of the situation in the morning. Good day sir.

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 09:18 PM
Yep, you're right on the money. It would be bland, predictable, and make Naruto fanfics look more credible by comparison.

I think it's also just my opinion, but I just don't find Sylvanas sympathetic anymore. She's lost a lot, but then again they were all expendable to her. I wouldn't be surprised if Alleria and Vareesa weren't any different and were also considered just as expendable.
Considering her previous afterlife, it can't have been that bad.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 09:20 PM
READ MY EDIT, DUMBASS.

Apologies, good sir. It would appear that we have reached that level of 'debate' wherein we are not so much discussing the issue like level-headed individuals, but rather screaming at one another over the internet. So I believe I shall take my leave for now, and see if I can't make more sense of the situation in the morning. Good day sir.


Pussy. And I RE-EDITED IT IDIOT

Erthad
01-07-2012, 09:20 PM
I will not equivocate, and I will not accept any universe having this sort of thing exist unless it's treated for the unfathomable evil that it is. If I could purge all cultural traditions preserving this vile tumor of an idea within the human psyche, I would do so in a heartbeat. Is someone mad that they are going to Hell?

Xilizhra
01-07-2012, 09:21 PM
Is someone mad that they are going to Hell?
What?

Mustrum
01-07-2012, 09:21 PM
Pussy. And I RE-EDITED IT IDIOT

I SAID GOOD DAY.

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 09:22 PM
I SAID GOOD DAY.

PUSSEEEEHHH

Mshadowz
01-07-2012, 09:24 PM
Sylvanas will keep getting worse and worse untill Allaria returns, then she shall be redeemed through the "light" from allaria's husband/jesus/king/man Turalyon, and her and Vereesa and Allaria will have a sister family reunion

Iliya
01-07-2012, 09:32 PM
No. And let me guess, you posted the same thread in the Story forum?

Geez. Bad move.

And no, Sylvannas should not be redeemed. She should die. Why? Because she doesn't want to be redeemed. She wants to live forever at the expense of everyone else.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 09:38 PM
Well'p, here's my final verdict and it's relevant. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q3I8-zGy0s)

GenyaArikado
01-07-2012, 09:42 PM
Sylvanas: *accompanied by Valkyr and important horde npc* *mix of surprise and doubt* Alleria *with some bitterness* Vereesa
Alleria: *with Turayon and Vereesa, forced stoicism* Sylvanas
Both walk towards each other, Alleria offers her arms for a hug. Sylvanas doubts but does it*
Alleria stabs Sylvanas, stoic face, single tear
A:Sorry, its for the better
*pulls out the sword*
A:*stoic* Lets go * they walk out of the room*
Horde npc goes fix her, fix her, Valkyrs resurrect Sylvanas, maybe she says something like "my sister". After that she starts changing slowly

Cliche and cheesy? Yes, but the thread is called "HOW WOULD YOU REDEEM SYLVANAS" and I dont see your ideas

Slowpokeking
01-07-2012, 09:48 PM
Sylvanas: *accompanied by Valkyr and important horde npc* *mix of surprise and doubt* Alleria *with some bitterness* Vereesa
Alleria: *with Turayon and Vereesa, forced stoicism* Sylvanas
Both walk towards each other, Alleria offers her arms for a hug. Sylvanas doubts but does it*
Alleria stabs Sylvanas, stoic face, single tear
A:Sorry, its for the better
*pulls out the sword*
A:*stoic* Lets go * they walk out of the room*
Horde npc goes fix her, fix her, Valkyrs resurrect Sylvanas, maybe she says something like "my sister". After that she starts changing slowly

Cliche and cheesy? Yes, but the thread is called "HOW WOULD YOU REDEEM SYLVANAS" and I dont see your ideas


No, I think Sylvanas will strike first and finish off her sister.

RobLore
01-07-2012, 10:35 PM
I think a family reunion is inevitable before they decide to end Sylvanas story.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 10:58 PM
No. And let me guess, you posted the same thread in the Story forum?

Geez. Bad move.

And no, Sylvannas should not be redeemed. She should die. Why? Because she doesn't want to be redeemed. She wants to live forever at the expense of everyone else.
But she won't. So I would advise you to build a bridge and get over it.

And by everyone else you mean Alliance or rather, any Alliance forces that try to stupidly storm Undercity.

Gadinhad
01-07-2012, 11:11 PM
But she won't. So I would advise you to build a bridge and get over it.

And by everyone else you mean Alliance or rather, any Alliance forces that try to stupidly storm Undercity.

She won't, because...?

If Cairne can croak out of the blue and be replaced, it's fair game. Your denial isn't justification. Realistically, any leader can be killed off. Her blue pair of tits won't be as effective in denying that as you may think.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 11:17 PM
She won't, because...?

If Cairne can croak out of the blue and be replaced, it's fair game. Your denial isn't justification. Realistically, any leader can be killed off. Her blue pair of tits won't be as effective in denying that as you may think.
Actually, they will.

Look, I know in the ideal fairy-tale world that Alliance fanbois inhabit, the vile, evil bitch dies and justice gets done. But this is the World of Warcraft. Bad deeds go unpunished. Justice rarely gets done, with some notable exceptions.

Just because you shriek and clamour for it, doesn't mean it will happen.

Gadinhad
01-07-2012, 11:20 PM
Actually, they will.

Look, I know in the ideal fairy-tale world that Alliance fanbois inhabit, the vile, evil bitch dies and justice gets done. But this is the World of Warcraft. Bad deeds go unpunished. Justice rarely gets done, with some notable exceptions.

Just because you shriek and clamour for it, doesn't mean it will happen.

Dunno what world you live in, but some of us can see realism, and fan service has never stopped a person from dying before. It's called good fiction. This is probably the first actual story you've delved deeply in, I can tell.

Garrosh can die. Sylvanas can die. Varian can die.

Fuck, Anduin can die.

It's all up to the author's whim and at some point that teenage boy's dick isn't as hard at the sight of Sylvanas as it once was. If enough people are calling for a character's head on a spike, there's a good chance it'll happen. Besides, they can appease the sprinklers with Alexstrasza, among other boring walking pairs of tits.

Kadifa
01-07-2012, 11:26 PM
Dunno what world you live in, but some of us can see realism, and fan service has never stopped a person from dying before. It's called good fiction. This is probably the first actual story you've delved deeply in, I can tell.

Garrosh can die. Sylvanas can die. Varian can die.

Fuck, Anduin can die.

It's all up to the author's whim and at some point that teenage boy's dick isn't as hard at the sight of Sylvanas as it once was.
Sorry, dearie, but I'm the one who inhabits the real world here. And yes, I have delved deeply into other stories.

Let me lay this on you. Anyone can die, yes. But constantly shrieking or hollering for a character to die due to some misplaced desire for justice won't make them die as soon as you want. They will die when they die, not when the spectators want them to die.

It really is up to the author's whim. See how I flipped that old school like?

HalfElfDragon
01-07-2012, 11:29 PM
And no, Sylvannas should not be redeemed. She should die. Why? Because she doesn't want to be redeemed. She wants to live forever at the expense of everyone else.

Just because she's a bad person doesn't mean she should die. I'm speaking from an out of universe perspective here, of course. But its often more interesting when the bad guys escape punishment.

The decision to kill an evil character shouldn't be made any differently than killing a good character. If its conducive to good story if should be done, but not on the principle of them being evil means that they'll get taken down at some point.

I think Sylvanas should stick around for a while, and as a villain, because its interesting and entertaining.

Vil'rexin
01-07-2012, 11:37 PM
But this is the World of Warcraft. Bad deeds go unpunished. Justice rarely gets done, with some notable exceptions.Can't say I agree with this statement one bit. Every notable antagonist thus far has been dealt with and majority of the deeds have gone punished. Just to name a few...

Cho'gall
Deathwing
Arthas
Kael'thas
Vashj
Illidan
Kel'thuzad
Drakuru

I could go on and on. Does Sylvanas have a chance to elude justice and punishment? Sure but the evidence suggests otherwise for that. As for a possible argument that she is tied to a faction and that will protect her, we know now that Blizzard has the balls to kill off the faction leaders when the time is right.

Each character deserves an equal chance to survive and an equal chance to die. They shouldn't be protected because they are the most popular or because of their genitals. When the time is right (my guess being a few years down the road), we will be discussing the fate of Sylvanas and how she affected the story.

Euphemialibritannia
01-07-2012, 11:43 PM
I think a family reunion is inevitable before they decide to end Sylvanas story.
Blizzard better wait to kill her off at least until Alleria comes back and there's finally some meeting between the sisters, specially the long over due Sylvanas/Vereesa meeting.

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 11:45 PM
Actually, they will.

Look, I know in the ideal fairy-tale world that Alliance fanbois inhabit, the vile, evil bitch dies and justice gets done. But this is the World of Warcraft. Bad deeds go unpunished. Justice rarely gets done, with some notable exceptions.

Just because you shriek and clamour for it, doesn't mean it will happen.

What game are you playing?

Warcraft is all about cause and effect, as the implementation of the Sha will prove.

It would also make absolutely no sense if Sylvanas just kept getting ignored and went unpunished for her actions, btw. I already have a hard time stomaching the Argent Crusade simply giving the stink eye to her actions and not taking immediate action despite Tirion's words during the Battle for Light's Hope.

HalfElfDragon
01-07-2012, 11:47 PM
Can't say I agree with this statement one bit. Every notable antagonist thus far has been dealt with and majority of the deeds have gone punished. Just to name a few...

That's an unfortunate result of the need to people to kill for progression. :(

I could go on and on. Does Sylvanas have a chance to elude justice and punishment? Sure but the evidence suggests otherwise for that. As for a possible argument that she is tied to a faction and that will protect her, we know now that Blizzard has the balls to kill off the faction leaders when the time is right.

I think she has a decent degree of protection due to her usage in the Forsaken zones. And I think that's a good thing.

Euphemialibritannia
01-07-2012, 11:49 PM
I feel I'm the only one who is the least interested in seeing Sylvanas reunite with her sisters. I just can't expect anything other than something bland or expected since I'm sure it's been fanfic'd a hundred times over.

That and seeing sibling reunions doesn't tug on my heartstrings as much as, say, seeing a son witness his own mother dying. Or seeing a mother witness her own husband get torn in half by a giant insectoid monster. (And subsequently seeing her own daughter get slaughtered in her own homeland.)

Also omg have you been playing Final Fantasy 13 lately as well!?

MOMS R TUFF

Lord Grimtale
01-07-2012, 11:49 PM
Also omg have you been playing Final Fantasy 13 lately as well!?

MOMS R TUFF

Mama Bear and Papa Wolf characters tend to be ones I really like.

HalfElfDragon
01-07-2012, 11:53 PM
Yeah, I don't really get anything from stories about fathers and such, at all.

Vil'rexin
01-07-2012, 11:56 PM
That's an unfortunate result of the need to people to kill for progression. :(Blizzard does need to find a better balance in regards of good guys vs. bad guys and who wins. The good guys so far are taking the bad guys to school and whipping them down like a varsity high school team would against a middle school team.

I think she has a decent degree of protection due to her usage in the Forsaken zones. And I think that's a good thing.In the short term, yes. She probably has a few more expansions to further develop her story before she is addressed for the final time. I'm just arguing against what seems to be some folks acting as if she has some immunity to this and it will never happen. This "immunity" is more likely people wishing that she doesn't die instead of a fact because they perceive her to be the ultimate Warcraft experience.

Gadinhad
01-08-2012, 12:02 AM
I'm arrogant and delusional.

Well, glad that's out of the way.

Euphemialibritannia
01-08-2012, 12:03 AM
http://unlimitedlivesblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/foreshadowing_poster.jpg?w=450

Magistrix Verdande
01-08-2012, 02:10 AM
Not sure, the dreadlords didn't use the plague or massive necromancy during the Third War(maybe it got something to do with Ner'zhul) so we don't see nightelf undead much.

Seems like the Scourge was not enjoying bring some nightelves to their side, not sure why.

I thougt Nordrassil made the Night Elves immune to disease, and as such, to the plague?

Zaelsino
01-08-2012, 03:40 AM
I think the major obstacle between her and redemption is the nature of WoW. Why redeem a character when they can become raid boss material? The real question is how in blue hell they can justify the Forsaken culture/leveling experience/racial themes/crests continuing to thrive without their hivemind queen. The amount of work needed to seriously justify her becoming a farm boss will be the make-or-break deal there, I think.

The only grey characters who seem able to escape the batshit villainy bat are the ones too minor to be of consequence (the guy in my signature, for example, whose past deeds have been met with some self-guilt, a shattered will, and a changed outlook on life, and even then he came close to it when they ran out of other ideas.)


Look, maybe I should elaborate? I'm reading Dance with Dragons right now. Of the Song of Ice and Fire? I just read the first chapter on Reek. It has this character, identified as Reek, locked in a dungeon, mad with fear and sorrow, guiltily chewing on a live rat. He's in utter darkness, so utterly defeated that he is afraid that if he's caught eating this rat, the guards will take it from him.

Now, when I read those first few paragraphs, I thought that Reek was, in fact, still the loathsome bastard son of Roose Bolton, who had posed as a figure called Reek in earlier books. This guy is a monster, who I would never have imagined myself feeling pity for. But when I read about him being reduced to such a pathetic mess, I genuinely felt sorry for him.

Of course, I was wrong. That wasn't the Bastard of Bolton. But the point is that I would have pitied him if it was. Whoever it was.

You know, that's... actually a pretty good idea, considering the sort of (I'm assuming you know who "Reek" is now) evil shit that guy did back in book two. You never think you'd really garner any proper sympathy for him, but seeing him utterly ruined teases it out of you. How the mighty have fallen, and all that.

If they ever did try for some redemption with Sylvie (which, frankly, I don't think they will at this late a point), then she should be dramatically brought low. She's done a lot of evil, and she needs to suffer for it. One way or another.

Now we just need to find words that rhyme with Sylvanas, and a character even more evil than her to pull a Ramsay Bolton...

ARM3481
01-08-2012, 03:57 AM
I thougt Nordrassil made the Night Elves immune to disease, and as such, to the plague?

Well, there are diseases and there are diseases, and the Plague of Undeath is far from being a naturally occurring infection. Given the way it basically "marks" its victims for swift reanimation and thereby automates the Scourge's recruitment of the fallen from afar, there's surely some built-in necromancy involved in its functionality, and the night elves' immortality didn't protect them from afflictions born of magic or they'd have been immune to fel corruption.

Additionally, even when not being deployed as a contagion to infect the populace, the Plague was still tossed around by Scourge armies on the battlefield as a weaponized chemical agent that just plain sickened and killed things through exposure due to how extremely poisonous it is in its raw form. Even with their immortality, it's feasible - likely, even - that night elves during the Third War would have suffered ill effects or even died just from the sheer toxicity of being doused or gassed with the pure Plague, or even from being exposed to the clouds of it exuded by some of the Scourge's troops.

As for why we don't see undead night elves running around (other than banshees in the Felwood, that is), they probably existed and just didn't appear in-game. We don't see them around because the Scourge army in Kalimdor was likely exterminated by the Horde and Alliance once Archimonde was beaten and the Legion's offensive fell apart. Those in Razorfen Downs might be leftovers from Hyjal, or they could be a more recent Scourge expedition sent to Kalimdor, but either way any original undead in their midst (other than the crypt fiends) are long since reduced to skeletons and ghouls, neither of which really look much like their race of origin any longer. After all, with the flesh stripped away, a night elf skeleton's only clearly distinguishing feature would be its height, which isn't exactly a reliable characteristic among mobs in WoW.

Ultimately, a corpse is a corpse once it's actually dead and even races like the Nerubians who were immune to the Plague and to Ner'zhul's mental domination were his to raise in death. Blizz just didn't bother creating a unique undead version of every race that fought the Scourge. From an aesthetic standpoint it was kind of a shame too; I was hoping in wotLK that we might see skeletal tauren, dwarves and other uniquely proportioned player races in the midst of the Lich King's armies. The horror of fighting one's fallen comrades kind of loses its gravitas when hardly any of the undead look like the races they used to be in life.

Gortrash
01-08-2012, 04:53 AM
Nope. Just one big fucking "NOPE" to this whole thread.

I gotta wonder, Xilizhra, since it seems that "redemption"in your mind means reversing any character development Sylvanas has received so far (to quote you "Then equally long strides back would be intriguing.") - How exactly would that make her a more interesting character than the cunning, manipulative, morally ambiguous, authoritarian ruler of the Forsaken and how exactly does her redemption offer more and bettter things for Blizzard to do with the character than the way she's currently headed? Sylvanas is probably the best thing for the story that came out with the Cataclysm (and for WoW's otherwise often stale and uneventful existence) and ironically has bigger balls than the male leaders of the Horde. Her development so far has been awesome. The worgen starting zone and Sylverpine Forest? Awesome. "Redeem" her and you take away all those things that make her an interesting character. Hell, all those threads being opened on a weekly basis to discuss her controversy in addition to all the rest of the threads that have nothing to do with her but get derailed into endless Syvanas/Forsaken flamefests regardless should probably tell you that she's getting the indended attention and Blizzard are doing something right for once. Have you seen any Baine or Vol'jin threads lately? I don't think so.
So in short, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Sylvanas has been immensely popular (whether people hate her or love her) and any redemption would be a HUGE step back for the character, mark my words. It would be the same situation as when the smart people at Blizzard sat down for a brainstorming session and said "Hey, remember what a huge success the Arthas/Lich King arc was and how they were both badasses and what an awesome cliffhanger their story in TFT ended on? Yeah, let's turn them into total wimps for WotLK." It just doesn't work, period.


One of the reasons why Admiral Proudmoore was badass.

There's a thin line between badass and douche. ;)


Frankly, I don't see why more people aren't willingly turning themselves into undead (not necessarily Forsaken) simply for the lifespan extension. A necromancer could make a pretty penny going around and offering to turn people into undead so they can live for a few thousand years.You'd think at the very least Night Elves who lost their immortality would be looking into necromancy as a consumer alternative.

Except there's the whole, you know, thing where you pretty much become a rotting walking corpse and you can't get pussy because you can't get it up since it's all falling apart.

Here, allow me to illustrate the situation better with a song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcON9ZmGDBc

Xilizhra
01-08-2012, 05:11 AM
I gotta wonder, Xilizhra, since it seems that "redemption"in your mind means reversing any character development Sylvanas has received so far (to quote you "Then equally long strides back would be intriguing.")
In one aspect. Not all of it would be a direct reversal.

"Redeem" her and you take away all those things that make her an interesting character.
I disagree, because I don't often consider characters who possess no redeeming qualities to be actually interesting, particularly not in a protagonistic sense like the leader of a player faction is. Actually, I detest it there most of all.
This could have, maybe, still worked if she genuinely cared about the Forsaken, but if not, I see very little of value there.

Have you seen any Baine or Vol'jin threads lately? I don't think so.
I have seen Varian/Malfurion/Tyrande threads aplenty. Even Shandris ones, and she's not even a faction leader.

Chef
01-08-2012, 05:28 AM
There's a thin line between badass and douche. ;)

Proudmoore was a badass. Garrosh is Mr. Douchebag of the Year (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h0rSTRrQeQ).

Gortrash
01-08-2012, 05:29 AM
In one aspect. Not all of it would be a direct reversal.


I disagree, because I don't often consider characters who possess no redeeming qualities to be actually interesting, particularly not in a protagonistic sense like the leader of a player faction is. Actually, I detest it there most of all.
This could have, maybe, still worked if she genuinely cared about the Forsaken, but if not, I see very little of value there.

Well, that's YOUR problem then, not Blizzard's and certainly not the character's. They have deliberately taker Sylvanas in this direction and it works, even as a faction leader. In fact, especially as a faction leader, since with all the things she's done she's in contrast with the rest of the faction leaders that do nothing (Ohai blood elf ruler/regent-thing guy whose name no one cares to know and whose short story never saw the light of day). I'm not trying to disprove anything you suggested since opinion is opinion but again, all the controversy and attention she's getting should probably tell you Blizzard did something right to achieve that and I just don't see how reversing some of Sylvanas' traits will give them better options to build the character. It's working as intended and it's working great so why change it? I just don't see the point.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 07:41 AM
No, I think Sylvanas will strike first and finish off her sister.

The only time we saw her do anything related to Alleria, she fell down to her knees, sang and cried a little

Bryn
01-08-2012, 07:51 AM
this character, identified as Reek

I absolutely love that little jerkass. I’ve been one of his fangirls since before he had a whole harem of them.

[ADWD SPOILERS] One of my favorite things about his arc is that although some of his worst traits have been beaten out of him, he remains an ambiguous character. He ends up pulling off something that could be called heroic, but it’s difficult to separate what he does for others from what he does to save (what’s left of) his own skin. He certainly hasn’t become a nice guy. And he still smiles inappropriately, only now with 200% more creepy. :kawaii: [/SPOILERS]


Now we just need to find words that rhyme with Sylvanas, and a character even more evil than her to pull a Ramsay Bolton...

The thing with Sylvanas, though, is that she’s already been through this…and apparently, she came out of it wanting to out-evil the evildoer. Horrific trauma made her this way in the first place, so I doubt that more of it would improve her. I wouldn’t be surprised if on some level she enjoys making other people go through what she did. (“Arthas clearly failed…you are still weak.”) It’s as if by imitating the Lich King's control over others, she can erase her own former helplessness.

I don’t think Sylvanas has been derailed the way Kael’thas and Illidan were, since she’s actually being developed and focused on. But I admit I’d like her better if she really did care about someone other than herself, and if she weren’t such a hypocrite about mind control. As it is, I’m more interested in seeing how others will react to her.

and even then he came close to it when they ran out of other ideas.)

I’ve never been so depressed over the possible fate of fictional characters as I was the day that Twilight of the Aspects spoilers came out while I was in the middle of ADWD. :(

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 08:03 AM
The thing with Sylvanas, though, is that she’s already been through this…and apparently, she came out of it wanting to out-evil the evildoer. Horrific trauma made her this way in the first place, so I doubt that more of it would improve her.

Yes, there is, traumatize her more and make the people see the woobie she actually is.

Magistrix Verdande
01-08-2012, 09:58 AM
As for why we don't see undead night elves running around (other than banshees in the Felwood, that is), they probably existed and just didn't appear in-game.

Now see, I always maintained the belief that elven bodies, be it due to the Sunwell or due to Nordrassil, could not be re-animated. I thought that was the reason why Arthas raised Sylvanas as a banshee.

Undead Night Elves have also appeared in ghost, banshee and wraith form many, many times. Until the emergence of the San'layn (who were created post-destruction of both Nordrassil and the Sunwell) I can't recall many "zombie"-elves. They've all been spectral in nature.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 10:05 AM
Now see, I always maintained the belief that elven bodies, be it due to the Sunwell or due to Nordrassil, could not be re-animated. I thought that was the reason why Arthas raised Sylvanas as a banshee.

Undead Night Elves have also appeared in ghost, banshee and wraith form many, many times. Until the emergence of the San'layn (who were created post-destruction of both Nordrassil and the Sunwell) I can't recall many "zombie"-elves. They've all been spectral in nature.

Arthas reanimated many high elves during his siege of Quel'Thalas.


I don’t think Sylvanas has been derailed the way Kael’thas and Illidan were, since she’s actually being developed and focused on. But I admit I’d like her better if she really did care about someone other than herself, and if she weren’t such a hypocrite about mind control. As it is, I’m more interested in seeing how others will react to her.


Illidan wasn't derailed before the "he went crazy" stuff. He characterization is amazing until he went mad. Kael is wasted.

The only time we saw her do anything related to Alleria, she fell down to her knees, sang and cried a little

Well she went further on her dark path now and she knew that her sister may attack her when they meet each other.

Gortrash
01-08-2012, 10:13 AM
Now see, I always maintained the belief that elven bodies, be it due to the Sunwell or due to Nordrassil, could not be re-animated. I thought that was the reason why Arthas raised Sylvanas as a banshee.

Undead Night Elves have also appeared in ghost, banshee and wraith form many, many times. Until the emergence of the San'layn (who were created post-destruction of both Nordrassil and the Sunwell) I can't recall many "zombie"-elves. They've all been spectral in nature.

Have I told you that your signature annoys me to no end? I guess that's its intended purpose but still...

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 10:19 AM
It's strange that the Undead Plague once only work on human, so it went almost useless during the invasion of Kalimdor. I think Ner'zhul did this on purpose so the legion would fail.

Through the course of his experimentations, Ner'zhul insured that the affliction would specifically target humans for “undeath”.

Omacron
01-08-2012, 10:32 AM
Now see, I always maintained the belief that elven bodies, be it due to the Sunwell or due to Nordrassil, could not be re-animated. I thought that was the reason why Arthas raised Sylvanas as a banshee.

Undead Night Elves have also appeared in ghost, banshee and wraith form many, many times. Until the emergence of the San'layn (who were created post-destruction of both Nordrassil and the Sunwell) I can't recall many "zombie"-elves. They've all been spectral in nature.

I may be getting my Knaak books confused, but weren't Dreadlords reanimatin the bodies of night elven soldiers during the WotA?

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 10:33 AM
I may be getting my Knaak books confused, but weren't Dreadlords reanimatin the bodies of night elven soldiers during the WotA?

Nordrassil wasn't there yet.

However, they should have no problem raise nightelf as undead.

Curll
01-08-2012, 10:46 AM
Proudmoore was a badass. Garrosh is Mr. Douchebag of the Year (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h0rSTRrQeQ).

Your signature snuffs me out of the picture I took deliberately. :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:: angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::a ngry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::an gry:

Kadifa
01-08-2012, 10:50 AM
What game are you playing?

Warcraft is all about cause and effect, as the implementation of the Sha will prove.

It would also make absolutely no sense if Sylvanas just kept getting ignored and went unpunished for her actions, btw. I already have a hard time stomaching the Argent Crusade simply giving the stink eye to her actions and not taking immediate action despite Tirion's words during the Battle for Light's Hope.
Easy for Tirion to say when it comes to the Scourge. There weren't exactly any geopolitical complications then. There are now.

And what exactly do you mean by "immediate action"? What can Tirion and the Argents realistically do?

Well, glad that's out of the way.
You don't get full credit for being half-right.

Pajamasalad
01-08-2012, 11:36 AM
I like Sylvanas the way she is. I wouldn't mind more prominent forsaken characters whose development doesn't hinge on her but she is a nice character. Don't give her the same treatment everything that touches the Alliance gets.

/mourn night elves and Gilneas

Really I think neutral factions should be more like Sylvanas instead of the holier then thou neutral factions we have now. Just a group that uses the Horde and the Alliance or that the factions are desperate enough that they need their help.

Insane Guy of Doom
01-08-2012, 12:09 PM
Well all the evidence (Kosak's comment about "plunging the world into chaos" Metzen saying "Garrosh is nothing but kill kill kill!" and "His sole purpose is to be a foil to Thrall) pretty strongly implies Garrosh won't survive MoP, so saying that a leader can't be removed just because how ingrained they are in the world is probably void. Garrosh appears more than Sylvannas in the world after all.

Vil'rexin
01-08-2012, 12:27 PM
Really I think neutral factions should be more like Sylvanas instead of the holier then thou neutral factions we have now. Just a group that uses the Horde and the Alliance or that the factions are desperate enough that they need their help.http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z46/kcochran777/Applause-1.gif

Mutterscrawl
01-08-2012, 12:38 PM
Well all the evidence (Kosak's comment about "plunging the world into chaos" Metzen saying "Garrosh is nothing but kill kill kill!" and "His sole purpose is to be a foil to Thrall) pretty strongly implies Garrosh won't survive MoP, so saying that a leader can't be removed just because how ingrained they are in the world is probably void. Garrosh appears more than Sylvannas in the world after all.

1. Kosaks comment wha?

2. Poor Garrosh.

3. GRRRRAAAGGHGHHHHHHH YOU AND YOUR SECRET KNOWLEDGE TORMENT USSSSSSS

Fojar
01-08-2012, 01:09 PM
The only time we saw her do anything related to Alleria, she fell down to her knees, sang and cried a little

And then hardened her heart so that it would never happen again.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 01:11 PM
I just realized that Sylvanas being totally apathetic about the Forsaken dying when she was going to kill herself is totally consistent with the "What are we if not slaves to this torment?" and "What joy is there in this curse?" attitude

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 01:16 PM
I just realized that Sylvanas being totally apathetic about the Forsaken dying when she was going to kill herself is totally consistent with the "What are we if not slaves to this torment?" and "What joy is there in this curse?" attitude

She also enjoyed to have power, otherwise she could just possess a living elf body.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 01:18 PM
She also enjoyed to have power, otherwise she could just possess a living elf body.

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/n725075089-288918-2774.jpg

And then hardened her heart so that it would never happen again.

It wouldnt the first time that a person swears to be strong about something/someone and crumbles when the actual something/someone appears

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 01:21 PM
I don't think she really hates to be undead that much after she broke free and became the de facto leader of the Forsaken. She could go back to life if she wants but she didn't do it.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 01:31 PM
I don't think she really hates to be undead that much after she broke free and became the de facto leader of the Forsaken. She could go back to life if she wants but she didn't do it.

Considering we never have seen her actually body swapping maybe she lost her ability to do it. And even if she does she couldnt be herself (she would have to pretend she is the other person)+she would still be an undead

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 01:39 PM
Considering we never have seen her actually body swapping maybe she lost her ability to do it. And even if she does she couldnt be herself (she would have to pretend she is the other person)+she would still be an undead

She could go out from her corpse as mentioned in a few novels, so she mostly still got her banshee ability. Get her sister or some young elf's body, it won't be much different.

It'll be cool to see her trying to select a new living body(or more than one), that's so sick and dark.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 01:43 PM
She could go out from her corpse as mentioned in a few novels, so she mostly still got her banshee ability. Get her sister or some young elf's body, it won't be much different.

She still would be an undead and she would have to pretend she is another person. In TFT she became leader of the forsaken so she could make them the Scourge of Arthas and after that she was going to end herself like we saw.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 01:45 PM
She still would be an undead and she would have to pretend she is another person. In TFT she became leader of the forsaken so she could make them the Scourge of Arthas and after that she was going to end herself like we saw.

Why would she have to pretend to be someone?

"I'm Sylvanas, I possessed my sister(or some younger elf)'s body."

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 01:47 PM
Why would she have to pretend to be someone?

"I'm Sylvanas, I possessed my sister(or some younger elf)'s body."

because there is already another soul occupaying that body, so its stealing. And Alleria and Vereesa have husband and kids

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 01:50 PM
because there is already another soul occupaying that body.

She then displaces the soul of the enemy.

Banshee's soul will take over the body.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 01:51 PM
Banshee's soul will take over the body.

And said sisters have husbands and kids who love them. Also one is a great mage who could magic prison trap her and kill her and the other was as Jesus as you could get regarding to the light before Velen showed up. They would kill her

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 01:59 PM
And said sisters have husbands and kids who love them. Also one is a great mage who could magic prison trap her and kill her and the other was as Jesus as you could get regarding to the light before Velen showed up. They would kill her

"Oh my dear Turalyon/Rhonin, I have to go to Silvermoon for some important business, see you later."

Later in Undercity...

"It's so good to have a new body now. If that dumb human dare to come, the Blight will welcome him."

Villains aren't stupid.

Gortrash
01-08-2012, 02:02 PM
Why would she have to pretend to be someone?

"I'm Sylvanas, I possessed my sister(or some younger elf)'s body."

"Oh my dear Turalyon/Rhonin, I have to go to Silvermoon for some important business, see you later."

Later in Undercity...

"It's so good to have a new body now. If that dumb human dare to come, the Blight will welcome him."

Villains aren't stupid.

http://www.gatefans.net/gateforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4958&d=1311659972

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 02:03 PM
"Oh my dear Turalyon/Rhonin, I have to go to Silvermoon for some important business, see you later."

Later in Undercity...

"It's so good to have a new body now. If that dumb human dare to come, the Blight will welcome him."

Villains aren't stupid.

You dont get what I mean :sweatdrop

Anyway, she still is a banshee, no matter the body she picks she still is a undead even if she picks an alive body instead the dead one, and thats what she despised.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 02:05 PM
http://www.gatefans.net/gateforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4958&d=1311659972

She just needs to pretend to be her sister at the beginning if she's with Turalyon/Rhonin. After she leaves them and return to UC she can be herself again.

Or just pick some young elf, let her Forsaken grab her then possess her.

You dont get what I mean :sweatdrop

Anyway, she still is a banshee, no matter the body she picks she still is a undead no matter if she picks an alive body or a dead one, and thats what she despised.

She could control the body liker her own, she could breath, eat and being treated like a living creature if she take some "surgery" to let this body look exactly like her, what's the difference?

Oh, she could leave that body whenever she wants and pick a new one.

Erthad
01-08-2012, 02:05 PM
Why should she care if she stole someone's life?

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 02:07 PM
She just needs to pretend to be her sister at the beginning if she's with Turalyon/Rhonin. After she leaves them and return to UC she can be herself again.

Or just pick some young elf, let her Forsaken grab her then possess her.

Why should she care if she stole someone's life?

Again


Anyway, she still is a banshee, no matter the body she picks she still is a undead even if she picks an alive body instead the dead one, and thats what she despised.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 02:09 PM
If a real villain got such ability, I think he/she will pick the bodies he/she like and possess them, then once these bodies turned old and weak, he/she will just choose some new bodies to replace the old ones, so he/she can live and be young forever.

Fojar
01-08-2012, 02:11 PM
It wouldnt the first time that a person swears to be strong about something/someone and crumbles when the actual something/someone appears

She certainly doesn't seem to feel this way about Vereesa.

Besides, Alleria is Alliance. There's a big statue of her in the Valley of Heroes in Stormwind. She'd likely view Sylvanas the way that most people view undead loved ones; they are no longer the person you knew and loved.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 02:12 PM
If a real villain got such ability, I think he/she will pick the bodies he/she like and possess them, then once these bodies turned old and weak, he/she will just choose some new bodies to replace the old ones, so he/she can live and be young forever.

But thats not the point. Im was talking that she hated be undead until she suicided. And if anything her actual body is better than a living one, no need for food and rest, no pain, aparently more durability (according to Edge of Glory), etc.

She certainly doesn't seem to feel this way about Vereesa.

Besides, Alleria is Alliance. There's a big statue of her in the Valley of Heroes in Stormwind. She'd likely view Sylvanas the way that most people view undead loved ones; they are no longer the person you knew and loved.

I know, but I think she loved Alleria more, considering that she was the one to write her inscription in said statue.

And yes probably. And my idea is that Alleria sets her up by aparently being fine with her undeath and then stabbing her, which causes Sylvanas to start changing slowly

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 02:18 PM
But thats not the point. Im was talking that she hated be undead until she suicided. And if anything her actual body is better than a living one, no need for food and rest, no pain, aparently more durability (according to Edge of Glory), etc.

NO.

Why did she dislike herself as undead?

Because as undead, most of living are afraid of you or hate you and want to kill you(or "let you rest in peace", no difference). Even her own people fear and distrust her a lot, while she sacrificed her life to protect them.

However, with a new body and take some surgery to make the body look exactly like her, people will treat her like she was the living elf as long as they don't know the truth.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 02:19 PM
NO.

Why did she dislike herself as undead?

Because as undead, most of living are afraid of you or hate you and want to kill you(or "let you rest in peace", no difference). Even her own people fear and distrust her a lot, while she sacrificed her life to protect them.

However, with a new body and take some surgery to make the body look exactly like her, people will treat her like she was the living elf as long as they don't know the truth.

But SHE IS A BANSHEE, SHE STILL IS UNDEAD NO MATTER WHAT BODY SHE POSESSES. After she became undead and broke free her only goal was to kill Arthas and then off herself. She did not want to live

Gortrash
01-08-2012, 02:23 PM
Another person baited into an endless pointless debate with Slowpoke and yet another thread derailed by his stupid ideas/trolling.

You must be really proud of yourself.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 02:24 PM
But SHE IS A BANSHEE, SHE STILL IS UNDEAD NO MATTER WHAT BODY SHE POSESSES. After she became undead and broke free her only goal was to kill Arthas and then off herself. She did not want to live

Seems like you didn't get it.

She didn't hate herself, think she's "cursed" simply because "she's a banshee".

The reason is:

She's a banshee, therefore most of the livings fear and hate her, view her as a monster in their eyes, including her own people.

With a living body, she will be able to live mostly like an elf, being treated like an elf as long as she can be a good liar. So what's the real difference between live like this and being rezed for real?


Another person baited into an endless pointless debate with Slowpoke and yet another thread derailed by his stupid ideas/trolling.

You must be really proud of yourself.

Well, with such power and never think about possess a living body, is what I would call, stupid.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 02:30 PM
You gotta be kidding me. Think whatever you want Slowpoke, I already said what her intentions were, I never said she hated herself, I said that all she wanted was vengance and then die and go heaven. She saw undeath as a curse cause she went to heaven and got pulled back but she didnt care about returning to the living

Kadifa
01-08-2012, 02:32 PM
And then hardened her heart so that it would never happen again.
Which was, without a doubt, the right thing to do.

NO.

Why did she dislike herself as undead?
Because she's a vain elf with self-pity and a martyr complex.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 02:46 PM
You gotta be kidding me. Think whatever you want Slowpoke, I already said what her intentions were, I never said she hated herself, I said that all she wanted was vengance and then die and go heaven. She saw undeath as a curse cause she went to heaven and got pulled back but she didnt care about returning to the living

Sure you can keep your opinion.

Let me explain.

Why did she hate Arthas? Because he destroyed her home, killed her and turned her into a monster that even her own kind will fear and hate. Because she might still have some love to her people, if not, at least she still wanted to be a living elf rather than undead, she still loves her former life. Hate usually comes from love.

Why would some people just end their life after they got their vengeance? Because they got nothing left besides vengeance.

Just like Maiev, she got her vengeance but she pretty much lost everybody she loves except her brother. At least people won't treat her as a monster.

Sylvanas is no different, if she ever think about that, it only means she care nothing more but her vengeance. But that's not the case if she knew how to use her ability.

Kadifa
01-08-2012, 02:48 PM
None of that made any sense. And I know a lot about things not making sense.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 02:51 PM
None of that made any sense. And I know a lot about things not making sense.

Welcome to explain.

ShinMaruku
01-08-2012, 02:53 PM
Have you ever tried taking long strides in leather pants?

Not happenin'.

She's a witch she can do it.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 03:16 PM
Why did she hate Arthas? Because he destroyed her home, killed her and turned her into a monster that even her own kind will fear and hate. Because she might still have some love to her people, if not, at least she still wanted to be a living elf rather than undead, she still loves her former life. Hate usually comes from love.

As far as we know the main cause of her hatred is because he didnt outright kill her, instead torturing her and when he finally left her die he pulled her soul back. The other stuff are extra. If it were as you say living in an alive body wouldnt make differency as she still is a banshee and she would still be feared and even hated because she stole someones soul to put herself in that body.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 03:24 PM
As far as we know the main cause of her hatred is because he didnt outright kill her, instead torturing her and when he finally left her die he pulled her soul back. The other stuff are extra. If it were as you say living in an alive body wouldnt make differency as she still is a banshee and she would still be feared and even hated because she stole someones soul to put herself in that body.

In RotLK he directly charged and stabbed her with Frostmourne, then turned her into a banshee before she's dead.

He turned her into undead, therefore all livings, including everyone she once loved will fear and hate her. That's the greatest torment.

Well, she doesn't have to let everybody know the truth. If kidnap her sister will let people figure out, she can simply pick some nameless but young elf woman and let her undead do some surgery on the body to let that look exactly like her.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 04:02 PM
In RotLK he directly charged and stabbed her with Frostmourne, then turned her into a banshee before she's dead.

He turned her into undead, therefore all livings, including everyone she once loved will fear and hate her. That's the greatest torment.

Well, she doesn't have to let everybody know the truth. If kidnap her sister will let people figure out, she can simply pick some nameless but young elf woman and let her undead do some surgery on the body to let that look exactly like her.

I didnt know that they had changed it again

But no, Sylvanas main cause of hatred is still the fact that she got pulled back from heaven

Also WTF the thread is "How redeem Sylvanas" not "how make her worse". She hasnt shown any interest in leaving the forsaken and rejoing the elves since she got killed

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 04:04 PM
I didnt know that they had changed it again

But no, Sylvanas main cause of hatred is still the fact that she got pulled back from heaven

Heaven? Do high elves believe that?:glare:

Ku'ja
01-08-2012, 04:08 PM
This thread was so doomed from the start... We need a special code for Sylvanas when we talk about her thats for sure.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 04:11 PM
Heaven? Do high elves believe that?:glare:

Edge of Glory story, first time she died, she went to good place. She kills herself in IC, goes to bad place

This thread was so doomed from the start... We need a special code for Sylvanas when we talk about her thats for sure.

Gaga

But I dont see any epic wars here. Not sure how is it in ST though

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 04:17 PM
Edge of Glory story, first time she died, she went to good place. She kills herself in IC, goes to bad place

Edge of Night? Oh it mentioned a little, but not saying that her hatred all came from that little part, being dragged back by Arthas.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 04:23 PM
Edge of Night? Oh it mentioned a little, but not saying that her hatred all came from that little part, being dragged back by Arthas.

Night yes. Im talking about the "heaven" thing. She still has never said that she wanted to rejoin the elves.

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 04:32 PM
Night yes. Im talking about the "heaven" thing. She still has never said that she wanted to rejoin the elves.

Her forearm, still slender and muscular, was now a shade of blue-gray. Dead. The scene was very different now. This vision had the cold sheen of a memory lived after death.

She still preferred to be a living elf rather than dead corpse.

"We are abandoned. We are… forsaken. But when the sun rises tomorrow, the capital will be ours,"

Why are they abandoned?

Because neither the Scourge or the living welcome them(not as slaves) anymore.

Sure she didn't speak that out, she was trying to forget those stuff during her life because she thought she could not return to that time. All those darkness and fear and pain were from the life as undead, feared or hated by all the living.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 04:45 PM
She still preferred to be a living elf rather than dead corpse.


Of course she prefered being alive, but even there you dont see her longing to have a living body

Why are they abandoned?

Because neither the Scourge or the living welcome them(not as slaves) anymore.

Sure she didn't speak that out, she was trying to forget those stuff during her life because she thought she could not return to that time. All those darkness and fear and pain were from the life as undead, feared or hated by all the living.

And again that doesnt show she wanted to go back to her people. She is just being a politician+stating a fact

Either way your sugestion of getting her a living body a- doesnt help to redeem her, which is the purpose of the thread b- doesnt help her because she is still is an undead and will still be hated no matter what body she posesses.

Either way you are totally Fojaring the thread so I wont answer anymore

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Of course she prefered being alive, but even there you dont see her longing to have a living body



And again that doesnt show she wanted to go back to her people. She is just being a politician+stating a fact

Either way your sugestion of getting her a living body a- doesnt help to redeem her, which is the purpose of the thread b- doesnt help her because she is still is an undead and will still be hated no matter what body she posesses.

Either way you are totally Fojaring the thread so I wont answer anymore

Ok I know where the problem is.

I never said I want to redeem her, it's a bad idea.

I'm just talking about let her possess someone else's body to let her have more struggle and even walk into a darker path.

She won't give up the power just to return to her people, but with a living body+ some lies, her people surely wouldn't fear and hate her that much.

Actually, it will be easier for her to usurp some power from Silvermoon. She could still lead her Forsaken secretly, let someone else take the position in UC and be her puppet, get all the hate.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 05:15 PM
Ok I know where the problem is.

I never said I want to redeem her, it's a bad idea.

I'm just talking about let her possess someone else's body to let her have more struggle and even walk into a darker path.

She won't give up the power just to return to her people, but with a living body+ some lies, her people surely wouldn't fear and hate her that much.

Actually, it will be easier for her to usurp some power from Silvermoon. She could still lead her Forsaken secretly, let someone else take the position in UC and be her puppet, get all the hate.

then why you are here?
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lilr52vvvF1qdlkgg.gif

Slowpokeking
01-08-2012, 05:18 PM
then why you are here?

Rather than redemption, I'm giving out my ideas to see if it can make her character more interesting.

Mustrum
01-08-2012, 05:20 PM
then why you are here?

Rather than redemption, I'm giving out my ideas to see if it can make her character more interesting.

It's a valid reason.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 05:26 PM
It's a valid reason.

How would Sylvanas be successfully redeemed?

no for this thread

And anyway, as seen with Kerrigan, Sylvanas (and the Forsaken in overall) can be easily redeemed, in fact more than Kerrigan as she has actual family instead of just a love interest.

Vil'rexin
01-08-2012, 05:29 PM
no for this threadPeople are allowed to give their opinion on whether Sylvanas should be redeemed or not. Seems the majority here don't want to see such a thing happen.

C9H20
01-08-2012, 05:32 PM
Sylvanas has lost any sympathy she ever had in the Edge of Night, before most thought she at least cared for her people, her one redeeming quality, which kind of made her the antithesis of the Greek tragedy hero, and I for one could pity and support her even trough all the malice she committed, because she did suffer horribly under the LK. However without that one crucial quality her misdeeds overturn her woobie status, and make her uttetly unlikable.

The way I see it, in a story a character of such darkness has two way to go, one he/she keeps galloping along the wide and crooked until they piss off the wrong person - and eventual death is almost assured otherwise they ruin any realism the world may have held, or secondly they redeem themselves.

For Sylvanas both options are very viable, one is backed by gameplay the other by natural story progression.

Obviously her death would be useful from the metagame perspective as it would be another big name to be thrown to the raiders.

Now, the reason I say that her redemption is the natural way for her character to develop is twofold. One, her character has reached rock bottom as far as likeability goes, if she continues to commit any number of atrocities she will not become any more disliked then she is now, so any progression requires her to do good.
Secondly she must realize that she is to blame for her damnation, and that, valkyr or no, sooner or latter she will die, unless she attains true immortality or godhood. Since she is realistic, she will realize that the only real way of avoiding hell is to be a better person, though given her current mental state she will need a push of some sorts to get her going, quite possibly from one of her sisters. That is of course unless someone kills her before.

An important thing to note here is that redemption does not mean that all will forgive and forget, it's more of a personal thing, it's quite likely that she will remain hated even after she redeems herself to the power(s) above.

GenyaArikado
01-08-2012, 05:32 PM
People are allowed to give their opinion on whether Sylvanas should be redeemed or not. Seems the majority here don't want to see such a thing happen.

maybe, but thats it. The thread is about "How redeem her" not "LOL LETS MAKE HER WORSE".


Secondly she must realize that she is to blame for her damnation, and that, valkyr or no, sooner or latter she will die, unless she attains true immortality or godhood. Since she is realistic, she will realize that the only real way of avoiding hell is to be a better person, though given her current mental state she will need a push of some sorts to get her going, quite possibly from one of her sisters. That is of course unless someone kills her before.

An important thing to note here is that redemption does not mean that all will forgive and forget, it's more of a personal thing, it's quite likely that she will remain hated even after she redeems herself to the power(s) above.

You sir deserve this applause
http://tnation.t-nation.com/forum_images/7/d/7dfa3_ORIG-applause.gif