Orcs vs Humans

[Rashid]

Something had been bothering me for some time now, and since I'm currently reading Tides of Darkness, the question has been brought to my attention again.

How does any given human character in Warcraft lore stand up against an orc?

I'm sure the answer has a lot to do with skill an experience. In the case of heroes like Lothar and Turalyon (Rosenburg doesn't go two pages without mentioning Turalyon smashing some orc's head in), I suppose they have to be given some kind of edge, but I would prefer it to be something a little more believable.. maybe taking advantage of human qualities of strategy, craftiness, and tenacity.

As far as I can understand, the orcs won the first war because of two things. 1) Orcs are bigger and stronger than humans, and 2) There were more of them. Their initial defeat at castle Stormwind was due to shock troops like knights, which I don't disregard as a legitimate way to turn the tide of battle, but it doesn't seem like the horde suffered defeats by means of any grand overarching strategy by which the humans befuddled the orcs.

But what I'm finding in this book in particular are orcs being put down like they're little kids. Now, I'm not saying that I expect an orc's skull not to cave in from the full force of a war hammer, but it seems like they really drop like flies whenever the humans can create the slightest advantage.

To take one case, look at when the Horde landed in Hillsbrad. Rosenburg describes it as a tide of orcs charging brainlessly into what was more or less a spear phalanx. Now I'm sure someone might disagree with me, but why would you send scores of your troops to their death like that? Throughout the fight not many humans are killed, and as the fight was ending, the only hint at the Horde's power was when Turalyon looked around at his "weary soldiers" and realized that they couldn't keep this up all day. If the orcs had enough space to just march off toward the Hinterlands after they got bored of dying, I'm sure no one was twisting their arm to run headfirst into death by impaling.

I feel like the LotR-esque interpretations of orcs being mindless brutes that gain victory through numbers is a bit forced here. Sure, calling it "the Horde" would influence one to think so, but it seems like there isn't much that the humans have to do in order to deal with what are essentially a bunch of trash-mob like orcs.

Maybe it's Rosenburg's fault for this book in particular, but shouldn't human victories owe themselves to more than just common sense decisions like "archers in the back" or "fight in the woods" or "okay now don't fight in the woods"?

Gameplay mechanics and balance in WC1, WC2, and WoW aside, should humans be portrayed as equally strong as orcs in a straight up "fair" fight? How does this translate to the "strength" of notable characters like Varian Wyrnn or Anduin Lothar?

[Timolas]

You do realise that the orcs were under the influence of Mannoroth's blood at that point right?

Them acting like crazed animals without tactics is pretty in keeping with their brainless servitude to the Legion.

[Rashid]

I don't quite make that connection, Timolas. Look at the other races under the Legion's command. The Eredar and Nathrezim are still highly intelligent.

They had fought the Draenei with moderate success before drinking the blood, using warlock magic and I guess again superior numbers. They only drank before sacking Shattrath, and it made them more bloodthirsty and warlike. Why would it have lowered their intelligence to the point of animals? And if it did, wouldn't the Draenei have fended them off more easily?

[Yuber8900]

What do you mean? Humans never won a single battle, fight, or even "who talks better" match in the first war.

[Rashid]

What do you mean? Humans never won a single battle, fight, or even "who talks better" match in the first war.

They fought off the first seige of Stormwind castle, and I guess this is what I'm getting at. The first war and background information leads us to believe that Orcs are hardy and strong. Was there anything, besides Rosenburg's imagination, that makes them so weak in Tides of Darkness?

[Timolas]

I don't quite make that connection, Timolas. Look at the other races under the Legion's command. The Eredar and Nathrezim are still highly intelligent.

They had fought the Draenei with moderate success before drinking the blood, using warlock magic and I guess again superior numbers. They only drank before sacking Shattrath, and it made them more bloodthirsty and warlike. Why would it have lowered their intelligence to the point of animals? And if it did, wouldn't the Draenei have fended them off more easily?

Also look at felguards.

Orcs got their base instincts magnified and their lust for blood equated to a mindless charge. It's how they've always been depicted in the Old Horde.

Orcs are hardly as intelligent or cunning as Nathrezim or Eredar.
Fel magic also seems to have different effects on different races.

[Yuber8900]

They fought off the first seige of Stormwind castle, and I guess this is what I'm getting at. The first war and background information leads us to believe that Orcs are hardy and strong. Was there anything, besides Rosenburg's imagination, that makes them so weak in Tides of Darkness?

Lies. The orcs peacefully came up to Stormwind when the barbaric humans attacked. The orcs, superior and honorable warriors who could never lose that they are, quickly fought off the humans and retreated to the swamps that had only become that way through the humans sheer hate for the peaceful greenskins.

[Wulfang]

I don't quite make that connection, Timolas. Look at the other races under the Legion's command. The Eredar and Nathrezim are still highly intelligent.

They had fought the Draenei with moderate success before drinking the blood, using warlock magic and I guess again superior numbers. They only drank before sacking Shattrath, and it made them more bloodthirsty and warlike. Why would it have lowered their intelligence to the point of animals? And if it did, wouldn't the Draenei have fended them off more easily?

Because the Eredar were turned into demons by infusal with fel energy and the Nathrezim have apparently always been like that. The orcs, on the other hand, got their demonic power by drinking the blood of Mannoroth, the Demon King of the most warlike, bloodthirsty and uncaring race in the Burning Legion's roster.

[Rashid]

I'll submit that the Eredar and Nathrezim naturally commanded more intellect than orcs. It's also fair to say that fel magic works differently on different creatures.

I guess in my opinion, overbearing bloodlust means that charging through heavy losses when you believe you can ensure victory is a plausible scenario, but the level of stupidity is, I feel, a bit of a stretch. Yes, the old horde was always depicted as willing to lose an eye in order to cleave a skull, but I just find it a little unbelievable that defeating them doesn't seem much more difficult than rounding up some belligerent cattle

[Rashid]

Lies. The orcs peacefully came up to Stormwind when the barbaric humans attacked. The orcs, superior and honorable warriors who could never lose that they are, quickly fought off the humans and retreated to the swamps that had only become that way through the humans sheer hate for the peaceful greenskins.

I think we are going to be good friends.

[Timolas]

I wouldn't say it was that easy. I recall a good portion of Alliance destruction, especially when the Death Knights got off at Hillsbrad.

You may argue that orcs weren't glorified enough, but then again Khadgar was also exhausted too early, some might argue.

[Rashid]

Yes, the death knights were able to do some damage, but that was magic. I can't form a concrete opinion on the often fickle effectiveness of magic and its wielders :P

But really, even this guy looks strong :peon: What's the deal?

[Timolas]

I'm sure if a human and an orc arm wrestled, generally the orc would win. But that doesn't mean that the orc would necessarily have to win in a full out fight.

[Rashid]

Well no, of course I'm not contending that they should be winning every fight every time, especially in a large battle. I'm just wondering how they lose in a format they're best suited for. Fighting orcs in a huge battle shouldn't be as easy as turning around and smashing the next orc in range.

That said, I liked the thing with the Wildhammer gryphon riders, and the way the elves dispatched the first ogre-mage they encountered. Those were things that the orcs didn't come prepared to handle, and had to adapt to after taking losses.

Maybe I'm protesting lazy writing more than anything else.

[Timolas]

I don't know about lazy writing, although Yubes would probably agree with you there.

I liked Tides of S-... Darkness, actually.

But remember it was a tale of human heroism and bravery, and thus there will be more portrayal of such.
Just as not all battles were shown in the book, not all human casualties were described.

[Fordragon]

I feel that the larger the battle, the less an Orc's physical advantages are significant. It's mostly due to them fighting as warriors rather than soldiers like the humans. Basically, the more you escalate numbers, the easier it is for the humans to use defensive formations like phalanxes or pike squares to make up for their lesser size... which is really how soldiers beat warriors, in general.

The real problem is that the entire Orc society is centered around gathering personal glory in combat, more or less. So you get them charging off and trying to kill some guys rather than following orders. The Orcs wouldn't have had so much trouble against the Knights if they were regimented enough to use an anti-cavalry formation like a pike square, but their drive for personal, rather than group, honor would lead to them breaking formation to charge off for personal glory.

Would one Orc thrash a human? No problem. Would a half-dozen Orcs rough up an equal number of humans? Probably, though they might have a bit of trouble. But you have to have a pretty huge physical edge to beat a professional military with a disorganized bunch of warriors who care more about looking good than winning (an attitude that persists even today. Look at Saurfang Jr).

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

It wasn’t about honor, this was the blood-lusted horde. It was just the sheer joy of killing, getting lost in the rage. Not much order following going to happen.

Also consider that humans were generally more well equipped than orcs. Full suits or armor and shields vs. practically naked orcs with big axes. Many humans also were able to battle on horseback, and the orcs had by the time abandoned their wolf riders. The horses were mentioned as a huge surprise to the orcs in their first real defeat in the first war as well.

[Fordragon]

Would you prefer I use the word "glory?" I use them kind of interchangeably. Either way, they're that guy you don't want on your basketball team: self-centered, glory-hounding, uncooperative.

[Drz]

What was the reason they disbanded the wolf riders again? Was it Orgrim to decrease Rend and Maim Blackhand's power or something, right? :p

[Rashid]

Rend and Maim were part of the Scythegore arm, the primary organization of the wolf riders. He didn't want them rallying under them.

I don't know how disorganized the Horde was, to be honest. Even in that first battle at Hillsbrad, if they were overcome with battlelust, couldn't they just ignore organization and planning and just fight until one side was completely annihilated?

[Kenzuki]

It's also important to note that the death of King Llane caused a massive loss of morale of the armies of Stormwind. When an army loses morale it starts to lose it's edge and isn't as effective. So that was a factor in the First War as well.

[Ornhelm]

I think it is mentioned several times in the book that the humans had platemail, and the orcs didn't have jack for armor. Also, there is no mention of orcs having been outfitted with shields or bows. I know orc skin is tough, but it is no match for steel meant for cleaving through armor.

[Fordragon]

Rend and Maim were part of the Scythegore arm, the primary organization of the wolf riders. He didn't want them rallying under them.

I don't know how disorganized the Horde was, to be honest. Even in that first battle at Hillsbrad, if they were overcome with battlelust, couldn't they just ignore organization and planning and just fight until one side was completely annihilated?

I think it wears off if you see enough of the dudes on both sides of you get decapitated. They're axe-crazy, but not blind.

[Daiol]

I think it wears off if you see enough of the dudes on both sides of you get decapitated. They're axe-crazy, but not blind.

"X goes into a rage after seeing a friend fall in battle!"

[Kimera888]

The Burning Legion can affect creatures in different ways. Orcs drank the blood of Mannoroth, who is basically an incarnation of rage, which is why many orcs basically went mad with bloodlust. (This was shown quite well from Hellscream's PoV in Beyond the Dark Portal. He thought that his rage could easily get him killed, as he could get lost in it and not realize his tactical position. So yes, seeing his friends decapitated might not stop a bloodlusted orc.)

Humans probably have better equipment. A shield and heavier armor can reduce the disadvantage. Also, I got the impression that the humans were frequently better trained, though not always. (The Lordaeron guards were pathetic, from Lothar's PoV.) IMO equipment shouldn't be that important, but if two opponents are equally skilled the person with better equipment wins. When the Spartans fought the Immortals, they both seemed equally skilled but the Spartans had much better armor. (Note the paintings of nude Greek soldiers fighting is just artwork; Greek hoplites made a big deal of having heavy equipment.)

Orcs had fewer "heroes" and many weren't good strategists. I think Kilrogg Deadeye was a great hero, but he's no general. Doomhammer had to do most of the thinking for his side (as Gul'dan was a backstabber). Hellscream was a decent general, but he wasn't involved in the original Second War, just the Dark Portal War.

Orcs may seem so badass because of their portrayed in Lord of the Clans, where they have sharper senses, move faster and greater strength. It seems to me the humans' main problem there was complacency. The knights did kick the orcs' butts (just like in the early part of the First War), only failing because Thrall used magic to "shake up" their horses.

The orcs took losses in the First War, and I strongly suspect the Alliance of Lordaeron had more military manpower than Stormwind ever had.

Knights really are badass, especially against opponents with no head armor. A horse can charge more quickly than a person can run and is much stronger; as long as the knight has stirrups (pretty much a requirement for being a knight) he can take advantage of this. Knights > grunts, even though the orc is stronger than a human.

[Rashid]

Hmm, good post Kimera. I guess that answers a lot of the questions I had :)

[Fordragon]

The orcs took losses in the First War, and I strongly suspect the Alliance of Lordaeron had more military manpower than Stormwind ever had.

They did, by quite a lot. However, Stormwind was at the time, the greatest of the human nations in most things, including army size. It was the fact they were beaten by the Horde that pushed the Alliance together, because they realized that if they could beat SW, no individual nation stood a chance.