Garrosh Hellscream, as the new warchief whats going to make him a legend?

[Maul]

every Warchief has done something to burn themselfs into Orcish History

1. Blackhand the Destroyer- lead the attack of Stormwind and lead the Horde to victory in the First War. Also being the first Warchief
2. Ogrim Doomhammer- killing Blackhand, leading the Orcish Horde in the Second War, killing Anduin Lothar, finding Thrall and giving him the title Warchief.
3. Ner'zhul- reuniting the Horde on Draneor, causing the destruction of Draenor, becoming the Lich King, forming the Scourge, corrupting Arthas leading to the destruction of Lorderon.
4.Thrall- liberating all orcs from interment camps, leading his people to Kalimdor, letting the Trolls and Tauren join the Horde, him and Grom Hellscream destroying Mannoroth and freeing the orcs from Bloodlust( Grom did all the work though but its mentioned that Thrall was there), how he lead the Horde at the Battle of Mount Hyjal and the Third War, giving his people a land and city of there own

If someone would like to recreate this or correct me and add on to this that would be best.

[Drz]

Destroyed his own kingdom faster than Arthas did his.

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

2. Ogrim Doomhammer- killing Blackhand, leading the Orcish Horde in the Second War, killing Anduin Lothar, finding Thrall and giving him the title Warchief.
He also lead it to it's first major (and utter) defeat after declaring a Second, unprovoked, War. He also got rid of most of the warlock's, get rid of demonic influence and tried to return the Horde to shamanism, didn't he?
4.Thrall- liberating all orcs from interment camps, leading his people to Kalimdor, letting the Trolls and Tauren join the Horde, him and Grom Hellscream destroying Mannoroth and freeing the orcs from Bloodlust( Grom did all the work though but its mentioned that Thrall was there), how he lead the Horde at the Battle of Mount Hyjal and the Third War, giving his people a land and city of there own

Not to mention he built the Horde into one of the two superpowers existing, bringing the Horde back to shamanism, then letting warlock's back in.

As for Garrosh, he could defeat the Alliance or bring the Horde to it's knees in a fruitless war (not that I believe he will become Warchief).

[Fordragon]

Buying a really fast sports car to compensate.

[Daiol]

Destroyed his own kingdom faster than Arthas did his.

this.

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

Destroyed his own kingdom faster than Arthas did his.

Why do you assume the Horde would lose against the Alliance?

[Drz]

Why do you assume the Horde would lose against the Alliance?

When the Warsong Hold had Nerubian invaders at their footsteps, when their food supplies were cut off and dangers were alooming, his plan was to attack the Alliance.... Yeah, i mean even Anduin Wrynn is a better tactician then he is. =p

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

When the Warsong Hold had Nerubian invaders at their footsteps, when their food supplies were cut off and dangers were alooming, his plan was to attack the Alliance.... Yeah, i mean even Anduin Wrynn is a better tactician then he is. =p

Anduin is about as good a tactician as Neville Chamberlain from what I've seen. Besides, this is about Horde vs Alliance, not Horde vs Scourge vs Alliance.

[Fordragon]

How are you making judgements about Anduin's strategic ability? He's fucking 12.

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

How are you making judgements about Anduin's strategic ability? He's fucking 12.

He has an obsession for peace. That isn't good for a future ruler of a kingdom in the world of Warcraft, especially when he keeps on whining about wanting peace when his kingdom is under attack and his father is fighting for his life. Anyway, Drz brought him up. :rolleyes:

[ARM3481]

When the Warsong Hold had Nerubian invaders at their footsteps, when their food supplies were cut off and dangers were alooming, his plan was to attack the Alliance.... Yeah, i mean even Anduin Wrynn is a better tactician then he is. =p

It's not even the specifics of that situation. A general who isn't interested in even hearing about the logistical concerns of his army has no business commanding it.

By the way Garrosh reacts to Saurfang mentioning supplies, he comes across as a grunt, and a grunt's job is to just kill the enemy. Generals are supposed to concern themselves with strategic, tactical and logistical aspects of war, and Garrosh seems to be insulted by the very idea that he should have to worry about such considerations.

Garrosh himself probably doesn't even realize it from his current position, but with his habit of frequently trying to talk by using his axe, he'd probably really have been happier on the front lines than giving orders from Warsong Hold. The whole war would probably be going a lot more smoothly if Garrosh were leading the vanguard and Saurfang Jr. had been placed in command of the entire offensive in Northrend. Such an arrangement would have played to their respective strengths more effectively, I think.

[Fordragon]

I'm hoping he is developed further when the comic reaches the Wrathgate timeframe, myself.

[Drz]

Anduin is about as good a tactician as Neville Chamberlain from what I've seen. Besides, this is about Horde vs Alliance, not Horde vs Scourge vs Alliance.

If Garrosh can't even make great decisions againts the Scourge, and suggests to attack the Alliance. How can i believe he knows how to fight againts the freaking Alliance?

[BaskinRidge]

I think most people tend to underestimate Garrosh's character tbh. Yeah the times we see him he acts pretty crazy, but I think hes actually more clever than just the show he puts on.

Take Varian for example, lots of people think hes just a rage-filled moron. Yet, we all here know that despite those fury moments we're shown, hes actually a top notch commander.

I'm not saying Garrosh is like Varian in those exact terms, but I do think Garrosh has a plan, and its working. His focus is gaining leadership powers, and he's accomplished that by saying what many want to hear.

[Maul]

I think most people tend to underestimate Garrosh's character tbh. Yeah the times we see him he acts pretty crazy, but I think hes actually more clever than just the show he puts on.

Take Varian for example, lots of people think hes just a rage-filled moron. Yet, we all here know that despite those fury moments we're shown, hes actually a top notch commander.

I'm not saying Garrosh is like Varian in those exact terms, but I do think Garrosh has a plan, and its working. His focus is gaining leadership powers, and he's accomplished that by saying what many want to hear.

I agree, mostly i believe that Garroshs actions have been linked to the fact that he has missed out on all the battles and war, and he wants to become legendary and a hero to the horde like his father.

I know this may not matter much in lore but its worth noteing that he'll be the first Mag'thar Warchief and maybe he'll have the chance to give the orcs there old "color" back.
Hmm, maybe he'll get the Gorehowl after Med'an visits Kara

[BaskinRidge]

I agree, mostly i believe that Garroshs actions have been linked to the fact that he has missed out on all the battles and war, and he wants to become legendary and a hero to the horde like his father.

I know this may not matter much in lore but its worth noteing that he'll be the first Mag'thar Warchief and maybe he'll have the chance to give the orcs there old "color" back.

Garrosh definately has the potential, but just like with many characters, he has things to work on.

I mean, this guy is the ultimate pariah in some regards. How many people would have liked to kill or alluded to killing him so far? Varian, Saurfang, Thrall..... not a list I would like to have.

Not to mention getting owned in discussions by people like Rehgar, Anduin, Saurfang. This guy is always pushed around lol

Yet, he still finds ways to not only survive, but thrive despite his problems.

[tufy]

Anduin is about as good a tactician as Neville Chamberlain from what I've seen. Besides, this is about Horde vs Alliance, not Horde vs Scourge vs Alliance.

If you have two foes, one of which wants you dead no matter what and one which would ally with you, if only to see the first foe dead, you ALLY. You can worry about this second foe another day. If Garrosh doesn't understand that, he has the strategic mind of a frog. Besides, in international politics, you don't go guns blazing, or you lose more friends than defeat enemies.

[Exxile87]

Garrosh is one of those characters that I'd love to be a fan of. I remember in Nagrand hoping he'd just be a kickass future Horde leader and really wanted him to become like a second-in-command. Well, he did. But they made him an arrogant, hot-headed, narcissistic douche nozzle. It's sad. Saurfang, jr turned out to be a more interesting character, and Blizz just let him die. They really should have switched the two characters rolls. The two Saurfangs leading the horde in Northrend, and the heir of Hellscream being struck down while facing the Lich King one-on-one? Man. I coulda written WotLK much better. In fact, in honor of Tim's TBC thread (http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4531&highlight=burning+crusade) I shall.

[Boren]

If Garrosh can't even make great decisions againts the Scourge, and suggests to attack the Alliance. How can i believe he knows how to fight againts the freaking Alliance?
Churchill also had a track record of making disastrous impetuous decisions (e.g. Galipoli, return to the gold standard) before his triumphant return in WW2.

Sometimes attributes that make you a bad leader in some situations make you a good leader in others. In other cases, people are smart enough to learn from their earlier mistakes.

Now that's not to say that Garrosh is that kind of orc (his behaviour so far suggests that he's an insecure blowhard desperately trying to prove himself worthy compared to Thrall & Saurfang), but it's not impossible to imagine a "Garrosh's finest hour" scenario, where Varian misinterprets diplomacy as a sign of weakness and only gets the message when met blow for blow.

[Roderich]

Maybe Garrosh will be a hero in Icecrown Citadel battle.

[BaskinRidge]

Garrosh is one of those characters that I'd love to be a fan of. I remember in Nagrand hoping he'd just be a kickass future Horde leader and really wanted him to become like a second-in-command. Well, he did. But they made him an arrogant, hot-headed, narcissistic douche nozzle. It's sad. Saurfang, jr turned out to be a more interesting character, and Blizz just let him die. They really should have switched the two characters rolls. The two Saurfangs leading the horde in Northrend, and the heir of Hellscream being struck down while facing the Lich King one-on-one? Man. I coulda written WotLK much better. In fact, in honor of Tim's TBC thread (http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4531&highlight=burning+crusade) I shall.

I kind of have to disagree Ex. I'm not saying Garrosh is a perfect or great character, but there is potential.

We already have people like Thrall and Jaina who represent the calm, humble, noble guys. Many other leaders and characters represent that sphere as well.
Varian and Garrosh are different, and I like that change.

Granted I do feel that up to this point Varian is the more complex character.

I'd honestly say Varian and Garrosh seem to be the most realists of the groups. They know how the people truly feel, and can see the other side as legitimate threats. It doesn't make them right, or truly noble idealists, but at least they make it quite clear that you shouldn't fuck with their factions.

[Maul]

I kind of have to disagree Ex. I'm not saying Garrosh is a perfect or great character, but there is potential.

We already have people like Thrall and Jaina who represent the calm, humble, noble guys. Many other leaders and characters represent that sphere as well.
Varian and Garrosh are different, and I like that change.

Granted I do feel that up to this point Varian is the more complex character.

I'd honestly say Varian and Garrosh seem to be the most realists of the groups. They know how the people truly feel, and can see the other side as truly legitimate threats. It doesn't make them right, or truly noble idealists, but at least they make it quite clear that you shouldn't fuck with their factions.

Agreed. Garrosh and Varian are what make the story interesting, what do you want in a story some guys sitting around drinking tea and making deals + acting calm and cool?
OR do u want lots of action, yelling, trash talk, and fighting! you see before Garrosh came into the room with Varian and Rhoin everything was calm, then once Garrosh comes in BOOM! we got some tension and then we get into the fight scene. Same thing goes with what happened at Org., would u like the Horde to just have the SCourge come in and attack while everyones standing around talking like they did in Stormwind? NO! the duel between Thrall and Garrosh caught peoples attention and when the two went into the arena what did everyone do? they came in and watched! then when the fights over we step over to the Scourge attack, thus instead of listening to Thrall and wait Garrosh listened to his gut and took action.

I'd go on but i think i've said enough:D

[BaskinRidge]

Agreed Maul, I mean I like the peace moments too, but damn not ALL of the time. Its like people want to ignore all the conflicts and problems the factions had/still have just so we can all hold hands forever. Conveniently believing it only stems from Varian/Garrosh and will be gone after them. The fact that there are peace/tension moments only makes it feel more real, and shows the true struggle.

The story isn't done yet for these characters, who knows what will happen in time? However, while we wait, perhaps we should look past our own sensitive feelings and see that these characters do have some pretty kick-ass qualities, even if they are dicks.

[Fordragon]

I think most people tend to underestimate Garrosh's character tbh. Yeah the times we see him he acts pretty crazy, but I think hes actually more clever than just the show he puts on.

Take Varian for example, lots of people think hes just a rage-filled moron. Yet, we all here know that despite those fury moments we're shown, hes actually a top notch commander.

I'm not saying Garrosh is like Varian in those exact terms, but I do think Garrosh has a plan, and its working. His focus is gaining leadership powers, and he's accomplished that by saying what many want to hear.

He could play those parts of his personality up to get people to underestimate him. Kinda "Legend of Drunken Master" style, you know?

[Curll]

Agreed Maul, I mean I like the peace moments too, but damn not ALL of the time. Its like people want to ignore all the conflicts and problems the factions had/still have just so we can all hold hands forever. Conveniently believing it only stems from Varian/Garrosh and will be gone after them. The fact that there are peace/tension moments only makes it feel more real, and shows the true struggle.

The story isn't done yet for these characters, who knows what will happen in time? However, while we wait, perhaps we should look past our own sensitive feelings and see that these characters do have some pretty kick-ass qualities, even if they are dicks.


I just don't understand why Garrosh has so much hatred to the Alliance. Don't say because he is one of the Horde. Varian has his own personal reason to let his rage unleash to the Horde. But Garrosh is outside the cycle. And he just simply hate Alliance so much. Make him looks more retard.

[BaskinRidge]

I just don't understand why Garrosh has so much hatred to the Alliance. Don't say because he is one of the Horde. Varian has his own personal reason to let his rage unleash to the Horde. But Garrosh is outside the cycle. And he just simply hate Alliance so much. Make him looks more retard.

We don't even have to look at characters in the game. Take the massive amount of players who have such extreme biasism they don't even want to see a piece of lore from the other side. Do they usually have great reasons, or any reasons at all? I mean some Warcraft fans know that both factions have great lore, even if they prefer one faction to another, but still many won't budge regardless.

Sometimes people get wrapped around certain ideas, even without good reasons, and stick to it no matter what happens.

As for Garrosh? Does he have any reasons to actually like the Alliance? Have they actually done something good for him? Hes a mighty warrior and sees them as a rival power in a power race, one he doesn't want the Horde to finish second place in. Does Blizz have him take it to the extremes? Sure does, but I think his point stands, the Alliance has done some nasty shit to the Horde, and he doesn't want to be their bitch. Look at what the factions are capable of doing to the mighty evils of Warcraft. The powers of the rival factions can't be denied.

Also to be noted is what I said about Garrosh playing on what people want to hear. He knows many don't like the Alliance, and by looking as a man speaking for the people, he made his rise to power. How about that lol

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

If Garrosh can't even make great decisions againts the Scourge, and suggests to attack the Alliance. How can i believe he knows how to fight againts the freaking Alliance?

Was it so horrible? If he succeeded, he would have claimed what was supposedly the only viable port in Borean Tundra and been able to resupply much easier, instead of having to trek things across continent from the Forsaken’s landing (which was already under attack by the alliance anyway). Suarfang seemed to have talked him out of it, but he didn’t offer any other solution.


Sometimes people get wrapped around certain ideas, even without good reasons, and stick to it no matter what happens.

Good points. Also consider that Garrosh has wanted to fight the alliance since the expedition invaded Draenor in BtDP, but he was rejected then because he was weak and sickly. Kargath insulted his warrior-hood, and it probably resonated. Now that he’s strong and got his aggression back, he hasn’t forgotten that.

And of course all the other stuff that forces him to overcompensate.

[Exxile87]

Was it so horrible? If he succeeded, he would have claimed what was supposedly the only viable port in Borean Tundra and been able to resupply much easier, instead of having to trek things across continent from the Forsaken’s landing (which was already under attack by the alliance anyway). Suarfang seemed to have talked him out of it, but he didn’t offer any other solution.




Good points. Also consider that Garrosh has wanted to fight the alliance since the expedition invaded Draenor in BtDP, but he was rejected then because he was weak and sickly. Kargath insulted his warrior-hood, and it probably resonated. Now that he’s strong and got his aggression back, he hasn’t forgotten that.

And of course all the other stuff that forces him to overcompensate.

I need to read BtDP it seems. Like I said, I'd really like to be a fan of Garrosh, but he just seems too hot-headed. After reading some of these posts, I kinda am starting to really turn to liking him. Time will tell.

[Peger]

He has an obsession for peace. That isn't good for a future ruler of a kingdom in the world of Warcraft, especially when he keeps on whining about wanting peace when his kingdom is under attack and his father is fighting for his life. Anyway, Drz brought him up. :rolleyes:

Ya think? Because that sounds an awful lot like Jaina and she's one of two people who's prevented the Horde & alliance from ripping each other apart.

[Stormcrusher]

We don't completely know everything about Garrosh's past though either there's 20-25 years missing.

What we know of Grom is that he took over as Chieftan of the Warsong clan at a very young age and is one of the youngest chieftans at the beginning of Rise of the Horde. Durotan mentions and believes he might have even of killed his own father to become chieftan. The Warsong was known as one of the most savage and warrior like clans. This is probably 10 years before the Horde begins to form up on Draenor.

After that we know that Grom has a son, but that's really all we know. In TBC we learn that Garrosh had the Red Pox and stayed in Nagrand as the rest of the Horde army went to Hellfire Peninsula.

When the first war starts Grom is forced to stay behind. Does he see his son at all? Does he train him to fight? Do they remain seperated? We don't know.

When the Beyond the Dark Portal saga begins and the Portal reopens Grom is to lead the small Horde army into the Blasted Land and keep Nethergarde Keep preoccupied until Teron and gang is done gathering their artifacts. He gets sealed in Azeroth and never sees Garrosh again.

Now when the Alliance enter Draenor they have one purpose, to eradicate all the orcs to make sure they never invade Azeroth or any other world ever again. The Humans did get trapped in Draenor, its apparent they had bases all around Draenor. There was a rather large base in Netherstorm, Hellfire, Terrorkar, and Shadowmoon. These are the large bases, who knows how far out their armies went. Garrosh might have fought humans and struggled to survive against them during the 20 years before the portal was reopenned. Why does no one ever consider this?

You have 20-25 years were Garrosh was on Draenor helping his people fend for themselves. He has trained to become a great warrior almost as great as Thrall, this is not something you learn by sitting around and not fighting. There's a story there waiting to be told. Maybe one of the unannounced novels? Christie is an awesome writer of Orcish stories, why not write the story of Garrosh who has a chance of being the next Orcish Warchief.

Garrosh become the leader of the Mag'har somehow also as there are other chieftan's sons in Garadar too such as Jorin Deadeye. What if Garrosh was a great and honorable fighter, but got too cocky. I could go on speculating all kinds of awesome stories about how maybe Lanessor or some badass blademaster trained him, then when Garrosh attacked Magtheridon's Black Temple trying to make a name for himself or prove himself or something he lost most of his men, and then his blademaster trainer said he was destined to doom his people just like his father or something then became depressed like we saw him.

There's 20-25 years we don't know about, maybe Garrosh has done great things and the story is waiting to be told.

[Kenzuki]

Ya think? Because that sounds an awful lot like Jaina and she's one of two people who's prevented the Horde & alliance from ripping each other apart.

I say let em' fight. The Alliance and Horde banding together fighting off an evil power was interesting and cool in Warcraft III, now it's just boring and humdrum. Time to go back to true Warcraft.


Let them fight it out and see what happens. Thrall and Jaina had their time in the spotlight, now it's Varian and Garrosh's time to shine. God knows the Lich King has been turned into a joke that can't pose a serious threat anymore.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Garrosh seems a bit impulsive but I hear lot of the NPCs say that he's gaining a lot of victories in Northrend. So he might not be that bad of a general right? But on the other hand, I haven't seen him do anything badass. From his behavior, I get that he's still most likely to do something stupid and get his ass kicked.

[BaskinRidge]

Garrosh seems a bit impulsive but I hear lot of the NPCs say that he's gaining a lot of victories in Northrend. So he might not be that bad of a general right? But on the other hand, I haven't seen him do anything badass. From his behavior, I get that he's still most likely to do something stupid and get his ass kicked.

Well I think one could argue that hes already done some pretty stupid stuff and survived. Not saying he won't get his ass kicked in time, but I don't think it would be easy if it happens.

As for badass, you didn't think his fights with Thrall and Varian were badass? Takes a tough guy to handle those guys, and he did floor Jaina at one point, which I found hilarious.

[Farsider]

I say let em' fight. The Alliance and Horde banding together fighting off an evil power was interesting and cool in Warcraft III, now it's just boring and humdrum. Time to go back to true Warcraft.


Let them fight it out and see what happens. Thrall and Jaina had their time in the spotlight, now it's Varian and Garrosh's time to shine. God knows the Lich King has been turned into a joke that can't pose a serious threat anymore.

I would disagree here. It's a matter of taste in the end, but I find that the tolkien trio (plus gnomes and space goats) vs. the generic screaming monsters is too dull and played out, even in the warcraft universe, to have any serious value or potential at this point. Throw in all the moral grayness and justified suspicion that you want, but the Varian/Garrosh conflict, intentionally or not, is rapidly turning into version eight thousand and two of the age-old noble human against barking orc scenario. You can't get more boring and humdrum than the most played-out archetype in the history of fantasy (perhaps all of literature).

Varian and Garrosh have been given their auditions. Cool warriors they may be, but both failed in terms of their story potential. Even the comic writers have realized this and relegated Varian to a third-string role in the ongoing comic nowadays. It's time to move on. The Thrall and Jaina angle may not be the way to go, but warcraft doesn't offer much for storytelling originality if we get the promised rehash of WC I and II. At least they could have tried to be original (Baine vs Magni? Nathanos vs Staghelm? God forbid, something original)

I never found Warcraft more interesting than when it dealt with two (or three) morally-conflicted groups forced to work together, in spite of their animosity. The orc and human, as opposed to orc vs. human, is what kept me interested in the series.

Ultimately, it all comes down to personal tastes. A mindless First War bloodbath offers nothing that hasn't been seen in every possible variation for decades past, and the story moving in that direction is becoming an increasingly huge turn-off for many, myself included. If they really need to restart the war, at least they could have tried for something interesting and creative, instead of pretty, asskicking human must save world from screaming, drooling mook.

[Marchais]

I see some people appreciate Garrosh and Varian because conflict is interesting, which I agree with, but I think the problem is that there is more to conflict than just shouting and trying to beat each other down every time you see one another. Perhaps something more like Putress, who took a more subtle approach to disposing his enemies, waiting until he had an actual plan before assaulting his opponents rather than just playing "red is dead".

[Stormcrusher]

I would disagree here. It's a matter of taste in the end, but I find that the tolkien trio (plus gnomes and space goats) vs. the generic screaming monsters is too dull and played out, even in the warcraft universe, to have any serious value or potential at this point. Throw in all the moral grayness and justified suspicion that you want, but the Varian/Garrosh conflict, intentionally or not, is rapidly turning into version eight thousand and two of the age-old noble human against barking orc scenario. You can't get more boring and humdrum than the most played-out archetype in the history of fantasy (perhaps all of literature).

Varian and Garrosh have been given their auditions. Cool warriors they may be, but both failed in terms of their story potential. Even the comic writers have realized this and relegated Varian to a third-string role in the ongoing comic nowadays. It's time to move on. The Thrall and Jaina angle may not be the way to go, but warcraft doesn't offer much for storytelling originality if we get the promised rehash of WC I and II. At least they could have tried to be original (Baine vs Magni? Nathanos vs Staghelm? God forbid, something original)

I never found Warcraft more interesting than when it dealt with two (or three) morally-conflicted groups forced to work together, in spite of their animosity. The orc and human, as opposed to orc vs. human, is what kept me interested in the series.

Ultimately, it all comes down to personal tastes. A mindless First War bloodbath offers nothing that hasn't been seen in every possible variation for decades past, and the story moving in that direction is becoming an increasingly huge turn-off for many, myself included. If they really need to restart the war, at least they could have tried for something interesting and creative, instead of pretty, asskicking human must save world from screaming, drooling mook.

If you ask me, Orcs Vs. Humans IS Warcraft. The rest is just filler to give the whole thing a badass story.

[Wulfang]

If you ask me, Orcs Vs. Humans IS Warcraft. The rest is just filler to give the whole thing a badass story.

Nobody's asking you.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well I think one could argue that hes already done some pretty stupid stuff and survived. Not saying he won't get his ass kicked in time, but I don't think it would be easy if it happens.

As for badass, you didn't think his fights with Thrall and Varian were badass? Takes a tough guy to handle those guys, and he did floor Jaina at one point, which I found hilarious.

Well, he didn't really handle the Thrall and Varian fights. Those fights were inconclusive. Though he did hold his own and Thrall was a little winded afterwords. Still, they were both inconclusive. The Varian one was too brief to see who had the upper hand and the Thrall one was contradictory in that in the comic version it showed that Thrall could repel him with Shaman powers and both were inconclusive. It's just that he hasn't "bloodied" himself yet. IMO, all he's done is start fights and don't finish them so he hasn't proven his worth yet. I can't really respect him for surviving this long because he isn't in any mortal peril. He's either brave or stupid enough to put himself in danger of dieing for 5 minutes by starting a fight but still hasn't vanquished any of his enemies. Then he goes back to the safety of the Horde and does jack shit. I think until he's contributed something positive like kill/lead a charge against a big baddie or conquer something I can't respect him as either a threat or a hero. Just some guy who likes to talk big.

[Peger]

I say let em' fight. The Alliance and Horde banding together fighting off an evil power was interesting and cool in Warcraft III, now it's just boring and humdrum. Time to go back to true Warcraft.


I agree that that would be more fun & interesting, but whoever leads the two factions down that path can't possibly be called a good leader, especially if they do it in the middle of the Campaign against the Scourge.


Let them fight it out and see what happens. Thrall and Jaina had their time in the spotlight, now it's Varian and Garrosh's time to shine. God knows the Lich King has been turned into a joke that can't pose a serious threat anymore.
And yet she hasn't done much besides say "ZOMG WAIT GUYS STOP!!!!!". Jaina needs more oomph imo.

[Anasyan]

And yet she hasn't done much besides say "ZOMG WAIT GUYS STOP!!!!!". Jaina needs more oomph imo.

Agreed. Honestly, before Med'an came into consideration, I thought that she would the perfect candidate for Guardianship, especially with Varian's return and the handing of the Alliance reins to him.

[tufy]

Imo, WoW could learn from real life politics. For instance, we had a period of 50 years, where two sides were trying to gut eachother out. Which of those sides was right and which was wrong? Yes, soviets were a dictatorship system, spreading their tentacles and power all over the world, but that doesn't give united states the right to destroy perfectly legitimate and elected governments just because they might look a bit in the socialist way. If you look at the most famous (cuban) crisis, then you realize that the whole thing started with one side placing an offensive outpost on the other's doorstep (WoW example: Northwatch Hold), then neither side was willing to back down (imagine Stormwind sending reinforcements to the Hold because Horde Army is amassing outside to take it).

Such events present a far more interesting story AND provide opportunity for fun quests, such as spying, sabotage, intimidation, etc. A few areas can still directly be in conflict - example in WoW: Warsong Gulch - yet the sides can be at unstable peace.

That's pretty much where WoW is right now. You don't need an all-out war to make relations fun, a cold war is enough if you use its potential.

[ARM3481]

If you ask me, Orcs Vs. Humans IS Warcraft. The rest is just filler to give the whole thing a badass story.

At this point, orcs vs. humans is probably only the earliest 10% or so of WarCraft content.

Really, why do folks still claim WC is somehow ultimately about orcs vs. humans at its core when it's been over a decade since that was the case? They fought each other in WCI, then as leaders of multi-racial groups in WCII and BtDP. After that, the next time war broke out was WCIII, in which only half or less of the game was even about orcs and humans, and they spent by far most of their time fighting the Scourge, the Legion and various other secondary groups rather than each other. Which was followed then by TFT in which the orcs and humans were kept to a self-contained side story and apart from the main plot.

Throughout Vanilla WoW it was a sideline issue, as in TBC, and only recently in WotLK has it become a semi-central issue again. And even now it isn't really about orcs vs. humans, or at least it shouldn't be. It's just that those two races have powerful members with big mouths and everyone else has suddenly gone mute.

Orcs vs. humans is far from being what WC's about. In fact, it could even be argued that the first game had that subtitle because it was the only game in which that was the entire focus, after which the whole thing got a lot bigger than just the two races duking it out.

[Fordragon]

Yes, the Humans and Orcs lead pan-racial coalitions in WC2 and WC3. And you know what? They were the leaders of those groups. The other guys are homies for life at best (dwarves, trolls, tauren) and allies of convenience at worst (elves, ogres). Just because the story isn't limited to them doesn't mean it doesn't REVOLVE around them.

Likewise, just because the story departs from having them as the main characters for a brief time doesn't decrease their central nature. You play as Atton in Knights of the Old Republic 2 for a little while, that doesn't mean he replaced the Jedi Exile as the main character.

But yeah, let the Alliance and Horde throw down. Whichever side is left standing is going to have the most elite fighting force ever assembled, at which time they will take a bat to Sargeras.

[Roki]

Imo, WoW could learn from real life politics. For instance, we had a period of 50 years, where two sides were trying to gut eachother out. Which of those sides was right and which was wrong? Yes, soviets were a dictatorship system, spreading their tentacles and power all over the world, but that doesn't give united states the right to destroy perfectly legitimate and elected governments just because they might look a bit in the socialist way. If you look at the most famous (cuban) crisis, then you realize that the whole thing started with one side placing an offensive outpost on the other's doorstep (WoW example: Northwatch Hold), then neither side was willing to back down (imagine Stormwind sending reinforcements to the Hold because Horde Army is amassing outside to take it).
Reminds me of the storyline of Cycle of Hatred :P

[Corse]

I would disagree here. It's a matter of taste in the end, but I find that the tolkien trio (plus gnomes and space goats)
As far as Tolkein-ism goes, the gnomes would be the stand in for hobbitses.
It's the Draenei who are the odd folk out.

Anyway, I definitely think Garrosh is a more interesting character than Saurfang Jr. As shocking as the Wrathgate was, the body count boiled down to a bunch of extras, a placeholder who no longer had any purpose, and the son of another character whose death would give proper pathos.

Putting Varian and Garrosh in charge of their respective factions might feel played out, but clearly in the story they're pushing for a greater PvP focus. I'm interested what the intended ramifications of such a move would be, given that world PvP isn't what it used to be anyhow.

[Kenzuki]

I would disagree here. It's a matter of taste in the end, but I find that the tolkien trio (plus gnomes and space goats) vs. the generic screaming monsters is too dull and played out, even in the warcraft universe, to have any serious value or potential at this point. Throw in all the moral grayness and justified suspicion that you want, but the Varian/Garrosh conflict, intentionally or not, is rapidly turning into version eight thousand and two of the age-old noble human against barking orc scenario. You can't get more boring and humdrum than the most played-out archetype in the history of fantasy (perhaps all of literature).

Varian and Garrosh have been given their auditions. Cool warriors they may be, but both failed in terms of their story potential. Even the comic writers have realized this and relegated Varian to a third-string role in the ongoing comic nowadays. It's time to move on. The Thrall and Jaina angle may not be the way to go, but warcraft doesn't offer much for storytelling originality if we get the promised rehash of WC I and II. At least they could have tried to be original (Baine vs Magni? Nathanos vs Staghelm? God forbid, something original)

I never found Warcraft more interesting than when it dealt with two (or three) morally-conflicted groups forced to work together, in spite of their animosity. The orc and human, as opposed to orc vs. human, is what kept me interested in the series.

Ultimately, it all comes down to personal tastes. A mindless First War bloodbath offers nothing that hasn't been seen in every possible variation for decades past, and the story moving in that direction is becoming an increasingly huge turn-off for many, myself included. If they really need to restart the war, at least they could have tried for something interesting and creative, instead of pretty, asskicking human must save world from screaming, drooling mook.

Now let's all hold hands and banish the evil from the land.

*The footman and grunt proceed to make out.*

There ya go, I just pushed your scenario one step further and came up with Warcraft gay softcore.


Seriously people, how is "Horde and Alliance banding together for the millioneth time" any less cliche or boring than both of them fighting for domination? At least we haven't freaken seen that in years!

You've only got so many bad guys we can mow through before we run out of things to make us band together.

[Farsider]

Yes, the Humans and Orcs lead pan-racial coalitions in WC2 and WC3. And you know what? They were the leaders of those groups. The other guys are homies for life at best (dwarves, trolls, tauren) and allies of convenience at worst (elves, ogres). Just because the story isn't limited to them doesn't mean it doesn't REVOLVE around them.


Just to get technical here for a moment, in WCII, it seemed that the dwarves, elves, and trolls each considered themselves the real leader, or at least an equal partner, of coalitions that they happened to not be the most numerous members of. WCIII wasn't Horde and Alliance at all. There were four playable factions, and six by the end (the alliance divided into the Illidari, and the Scourge divided into the Forsaken), and the Horde and Alliance were both junior members next to the Night Elves in their Hyjal coalition. WoW has only reinforced the move away from orc and human dominance. While the Orcs are certainly leaders of two of the races of the Horde, and grudgingly respected by the other two, the Alliance is even more factionalized and diverse than ever before (with the one exception of the Gnomes). The dwarves were the principal drivers of Alliance anti-horde conflict until just recently.


But, none of this matters any more.

Cataclysm has changed the whole game, and there now is a proper, lore and rationality based reason for Orcs and Humans taking charge and going to war again, that does away with all the previous hangups. So I concede defeat in this discussion, happy that Garrosh isn't the big villain that he was turning in to (or at least that he is being given a justification to act the way he does...self preservation in a changed world)

[Peger]

Yes, the Humans and Orcs lead pan-racial coalitions in WC2 and WC3. And you know what? They were the leaders of those groups. The other guys are homies for life at best (dwarves, trolls, tauren) and allies of convenience at worst (elves, ogres). Just because the story isn't limited to them doesn't mean it doesn't REVOLVE around them.


Except it doesn't revolve around them anymore. It hasn't since WC3, where they were as important as the Night Elves and Scourge; in TFT, they were bit players.

[Fordragon]

That's what we call a temporary shift in focus. In Chrono Trigger, Frog is the focus of the story in Magus' Castle. That doesn't mean he was the main character forever. Afterwards, Crono went back to being the hero.

[Farsider]

That's what we call a temporary shift in focus. In Chrono Trigger, Frog is the focus of the story in Magus' Castle. That doesn't mean he was the main character forever. Afterwards, Crono went back to being the hero.

A temporary shift in focus that's lasted for nearly a decade (longer than the 'original' focus) and covered five games and dozens of books and comics? :rolleyes:

[Fordragon]

By five, you really mean two, and by books and comics, you mean nothing, right? Because there hasn't been shit written on the Alliance or Horde proper until recently. Previously it was all the story of unaffiliated adventurers.

Please, direct me to this glut of stuff based around the Alliance and Horde being lead by other races.

[Peger]

Because the WotA trilogy, Sunwell line, etc. etc. are all about Orcs & Humans?

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Well admittedly they couldn’t tell the WotA story without adding an orc, and a human, and because its Knaak, a dragon. And the Sunwell trilogy was awful.

[Yuber8900]

Well admittedly they couldn’t tell the WotA story without adding an orc, and a human, and because its Knaak, a dragon. And the Sunwell trilogy was awful.

Even the War3 manual said dragons.

[Farsider]

By five, you really mean two

No. Five. RoC, TFT, WoW, tBC, WotLK.

I'm sorry if you haven't been paying attention for the last few years. You really missed out.

[Aldrius]

Because the WotA trilogy, Sunwell line, etc. etc. are all about Orcs & Humans?

WotA was mostly about an orc, a human and a dragon. And the Sunwell Trilogy was just bad.

But uh, yeah I'd say TBC was mostly about Orcs, Humans, Draenei, Blood Elves and uh... the Cenarion Expedition.

WOTLK has pretty much entirely been about Humans, Orcs and occasionally about the Scourge getting their asses kicked by somebody. Oh and the Forsaken too I suppose. But they kinda dropped that whole thing pretty early on.

Personally I've thought the Orcs have been really shoehorned into the last two expansions. Sure Draenor is their ancestral homeland, but the Scourge and Legion attacks have been totally arbitrary. Both just seemed to be big 'hey, come up here and kick my ass!' invitations by the respective groups, and it seems all the Lich King has accomplished is unsettling the players.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Even the War3 manual said dragons.

Not a dragon... FROM THE FUTURE!

[ARM3481]

Personally I've thought the Orcs have been really shoehorned into the last two expansions. Sure Draenor is their ancestral homeland, but the Scourge and Legion attacks have been totally arbitrary. Both just seemed to be big 'hey, come up here and kick my ass!' invitations by the respective groups, and it seems all the Lich King has accomplished is unsettling the players.

The orcish involvement does seem somewhat incongruous with the central plots, especially in WotLK. It's not as harsh in TBC because everyone kind of gets marginalized as a race whenever the Burning Legion's involved, since the demons are pretty much the universal foe of all the big-shot races, and the Legion's spent thousands of years trying to snuff them all out in one way or another. Orcs have their corruption to hate the demons for, Draenei have that Eredar lineage thing, Night Elves have the War of the Ancients, and humans and high/bloodelves have the fact the the Legion basically sicced the old Horde and the undead on them.

The Scourge, on the other hand, doesn't really share any history with the orcs that remains intact. Ner'zhul was the one preexisting thread between the Lich King and the orcs, and he's been out of the picture throughout the expansion, possibly forever banished, consumed, destroyed, or whatever. Otherwise, there's no longstanding grudge and common story between the Lich King and the orcs, whereas the humans are bound to the undead by virtue of the fact that a significant portion of it (possibly the majority, depending how many Nerubians there originally were) used to be human, and it's led by a formerly human master who betrayed his entire race to join it.

It's sort of to be expected in a way, since the orcs are such newcomers to Azeroth. The Legion's the only big enemy that's been involved in orcish history, which at this time is comparatively short and uneventful compared to the histories of Azeroth's indigenous races. Nothing much was going on with Draenor, then the Legion showed up and corrupted the orcs, and that's where their relevant history begins. Humans, night elves, and most of the other races of Azeroth have spend millennia immersed in a world where numerous threats have at one time or another risen to challenge them, and that's where most of the non-demonic villains of WarCraft come from. The long history of Azeroth has spawned countless dark forces that have given the natives longstanding reasons to hate them, while Draenor's locally produced villains amount to the Arakkoa and the Gronn, both a far cry from the likes of the Old Gods, Hakkar, Illidan, Deathwing, the Lich King and Azshara in sheer scope and menace.

In a way, the orcs' somewhat off-kilter involvement in WotLK feels like a consequence of the reasoning that caused Blizz to give the Horde a standalone campaign in TFT instead of weaving them into the main plot. They just didn't fit into the tale of Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas because none of those characters were ever directly involved with the orcs in a high-profile situation, so the Horde was given a smaller and self-contained story instead. And here we have WotLK, and the orcs still don't really fit because the Scourge is essentially an arch nemesis of the humans, high/blood elves and Forsaken. Everyone else is along for the ride and glad to be smacking down a dangerous evil, but those three races are the only ones for whom the Scourge is a subject of personal hatred and anger, and not just "those undead guys who attacked our cities and then ran away daring us to retaliate."

And even despite all that, the blood elves didn't even get to partake in the racial vendetta angle of the story (for reasons that still confound my efforts to understand them). So really, the humans and Forsaken were the only ones who sailed to Northrend openly bearing a seething grudge against Arthas and the Scourge. Everybody else was just gung-ho to get rid of the undead as a means of getting rid of a dangerous foe.

[Nene]

Maybe Garrosh will be a hero in Icecrown Citadel battle.

He'll become an hero, with any luck. :angry:

[Farsider]

He'll become an hero, with any luck. :angry:

The use of "an" as opposed to "a" is applicable in cases whereby the "h" in the next word is silent. Hero has a very strong "H".

The a/an issue is confused by the fact that many grammar books will contradict themselves, use both definitions, or use them interchangeably.

So you gotta go with what sounds right. And 'a hero' sounds right, whereas 'an hero' is obviously unnatural.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

I assuemd because an was bolded it was more than just a grammar error and some kind of joke or reference that went over my head.

[Nene]

I assuemd because an was bolded it was more than just a grammar error and some kind of joke or reference that went over my head.

Yeah, it was, sorry. (.____.); Wasn't meant as a correction.

'Becoming an hero' is another way of saying 'commit suicide'. Got a little too obscure for my own good there.

[Wulfang]

The use of "an" as opposed to "a" is applicable in cases whereby the "h" in the next word is silent. Hero has a very strong "H".

The a/an issue is confused by the fact that many grammar books will contradict themselves, use both definitions, or use them interchangeably.

So you gotta go with what sounds right. And 'a hero' sounds right, whereas 'an hero' is obviously unnatural.

The joke is lost on you, it seems. "Becoming an hero" is internet slang for commiting suicide.

[Icemasta]

Garoshs claim to fame imo, is that in the next expansion he will Usurp power from Thrall. Hints were thrown out that some of the horde were wanting to go back to a more primal nature.

After Orgrimar is destroyed, and the orcs more or less homeless, I could imagine their would be lots of red blooded orcs wanting vengeance or retribution, whether its directed at the culprits or just SMASH ALLIANCE HERE!!

Garosh would simply be the voice that rallys them, I would imagine when faced with civil war, Thrall would step down rather than have his people kill each other, and plot his own removal of Garosh.

This to me sounds more logical than handing Garosh the reigns

[Wulfang]

Garoshs claim to fame imo, is that in the next expansion he will Usurp power from Thrall. Hints were thrown out that some of the horde were wanting to go back to a more primal nature.

After Orgrimar is destroyed, and the orcs more or less homeless, I could imagine their would be lots of red blooded orcs wanting vengeance or retribution, whether its directed at the culprits or just SMASH ALLIANCE HERE!!

Garosh would simply be the voice that rallys them, I would imagine when faced with civil war, Thrall would step down rather than have his people kill each other, and plot his own removal of Garosh.

This to me sounds more logical than handing Garosh the reigns

Orgrimmar isn't destroyed.

[Steelhorns]

I think we will see a shake up in the Horde leadership early in the expansion(Although I don't see Thrall being Guardian).

From Blizzcon we know that Saurfang is leading the Horde forces in the assualt on Icecrown Citidal. So we can't rule out that something my happen to him, especially if he has to confront Saurfang Jr.

We also know from the Goblin starting quests that at somepoint Thrall has been taken hostage at sea. For those that got a chance to play at Blizzcon do we know who took him and how long he was held before being rescued?

If Thrall were to show up missing, even for a short period, I don't see Garrosh sitting around idley waiting for his return. Storywise he wouldn't even have to have a hostile take over if leadership fell to him in Thrall's absense. Leadership could then return to Thrall when he came back but the Horde and in turn Thrall would have to deal with all the conflict that was stirred up with the Alliance during Garrosh's term.

[Rowan Seven]

We also know from the Goblin starting quests that at somepoint Thrall has been taken hostage at sea. For those that got a chance to play at Blizzcon do we know who took him and how long he was held before being rescued?

If I recall the details of the demo correctly, Thrall was on a secret mission of some importance when Alliance ships apparently under the command of SI:7 ambushed his vessel somewhere near the Lost Isles. His ship seems to have been destroyed, and SI:7 found Thrall unconscious and placed him in an arcane cage to prevent him from summoning the elements to free himself. Considering that this is SI:7 and they had a magical prison prepared to contain Thrall, my guess is that SI:7 either found out about the secret mission and Thrall's presence on the Horde ship through a spy or a deliberate leak from one of the Warchief's internal enemies. However, as a goblin player you start almost in the immediate aftermath of the naval battle off the Lost Isles so I'd hazard that, at most, no more than a couple days passed between the Alliance ambush and Thrall's liberation.

[Maul]

ok besides anything to do with him dieing what will make everyone stop hating Garrosh Hellscream? what does u have to do to get everyones love? I'm sick and tired of hearing all this whining about Garrosh, hes a badass character and hes been one of my favorite characters ever since TBC(another favorite is Deathwing).

what will make him popular and loveable enough that will make everyone want him to be Warchief?

[Drz]

ok besides anything to do with him dieing what will make everyone stop hating Garrosh Hellscream? what does u have to do to get everyones love? I'm sick and tired of hearing all this whining about Garrosh, hes a badass character and hes been one of my favorite characters ever since TBC(another favorite is Deathwing).

what will make him popular and loveable enough that will make everyone want him to be Warchief?

Garrosh right now: IM HELLSCREAM, IM AWESOME!

Yet has he really done anything awesome? No, not in my view but lets say he _does_ get the finishing blow on Arthas and gets praised as the Horde's greatest hero, now that WOULD be awesome, but right now he's this tough-guy claiming to be awesome withouth having nothing to back it up really, he hasn't shown any great victorys on the war as far as i've seen.

[Drz]

The only time we've seen Garrosh is an actual battle (outside clashing blades with Thrall and Varian) was in the Theramore attack by Twilight Hammer, and sadly the art just made him this big Hulk and it just didn't look great at all. : |

Really thats why i love Varian and haven't gotten fond of Garrosh yet. Varian executed Onyxia, fought in gladiator rings, lead the Undercity attacked and declared war on the Horde for not having faith on Thrall's leadership! Not to mention Varian being protective on his son is a very great aspect of him. =*)

So yeah, we really just need to see Garrosh proof his worth as Hellscream. ;)

[Maul]

yeah, also i believe that Garrosh still unable to be attacked( in Warsong hold) by alliance players so the Horde pitys him for just sitting there and not attacking. Although Saurfang is next to him you would think that someone would just pull Saurfang then the raid would attack Garrosh

[Sports72Xtrm]

I agree with DrZ, Garrosh still hasn't done anything cool to earn respect. And now he's starting shit with the Night Elves. I think he's pretty badass but not protagonist badass. He does still have potential though. Fandral Whatshisname still has that corrupted idol of Remulos and that business with the marrowgrain. If he uses it to make the Night Elves go on a genocidal campaign against the Kalimdor Horde, and Garrosh kicks his ass, it could increase his popularity somewhat I think.

[Maul]

so all Garrosh has to do is do something really cool and epic to gain respect right? no personality change correct.

Also if Garrosh is going to be Warchief then hes going to need Gorehowl instead of his puny axes

[Icemasta]

Orgrimmar isn't destroyed.

There are a number of blue posts that state orgrimmar maybe raised and rebuilt over the course of an expansion

"Apparently Orgrimmar will be rebuilt and reinforced with steel, it now looks a lot like Garrosh strongholds..."

Source :http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=97425.0


SO I think it might end up broken, smashed flattened, unless they are just building a multi story, appartment for Garosh and all his homies

[Rowan Seven]

so all Garrosh has to do is do something really cool and epic to gain respect right? no personality change correct.

The fact of the matter, currently, is that Blizzard has depicted Garrosh as a hotheaded jerk. Having him do something that's actually cool instead of face-palm worthy might increase his popularity among some, but for those who like more nuanced characters Garrosh is a strikingly one-note individual and simply having him do more won't significantly change their negative opinions of him unless he shows more depth as well.

[Maul]

The fact of the matter, currently, is that Blizzard has depicted Garrosh as a hotheaded jerk. Having him do something that's actually cool instead of face-palm worthy might increase his popularity among some, but for those who like more nuanced characters Garrosh is a strikingly one-note individual and simply having him do more won't significantly change their negative opinions of him unless he shows more depth as well.

sigh* I still think hes awesome, i've always thought he was Warchief material. Its hard being a Garrosh fan with all these people putting hate on him :(

[Fordragon]

I get Garrosh. He's a guy who doesn't have a father, and is trying to live up to these stories about him that he hears, which are probably overinflated anyway. So he runs around trying to fight everything to prove that he's as awesome as his dad, who basically fought everything he ran in to. It's just that right now, he's a guy who has a small dick and so he bought a really loud pickup despite the fact that he lives in the suburbs and jacked it way up to hide his cock-shame.

While not everyone backs Varian, I think we can all agree he is usually a better-done character than Garrosh (except for Battle of Undercity, but I've aired my grievances about that thing's ending). A big reason for this is that we see Varian interact with people in non-adversarial ways. For example, from his interactions with Anduin we know that protecting his son is important, and he wants to provide Anduin with a peaceful kingdom to rule one day.

Garrosh doesn't have an Anduin or a Bolvar or a Tiffin to color his motivations. The only characters he has much interaction with lately are Thrall, who he is an asshole to, Saurfang, who he is an asshole to, and Varian, who he fights. Because we don't see his interactions with his friends, just his adversaries, we don't get to see in to his head very much. We generally accept that he does what he's doing to live up to his father's legacy, since Metzen mentioned that as his motivation not too long ago, but for all that it's portrayed, he might as well have a tiny dick and be buying Grand Traveller's Mammoths and putting them on stilts.

If they want to develop Garrosh, he needs to have a supporting cast arrayed around him. Perhaps he could be served by having a mentor, an older Warsong Orc who fought in the Second War with Grom and was bros with him. He'd be a mean-assed old Orc who believes only in battle prowess, and so Garrosh would be trying to win his respect sort of as a proxy for Grom.

[Sports72Xtrm]

sigh* I still think hes awesome, i've always thought he was Warchief material. Its hard being a Garrosh fan with all these people putting hate on him :(

Dude it's cool if you like Garrosh. Doesn't matter what the rest of the fans think. You can always like him as an antiThrall who flips off the Alliance. You can root for him to win big against the Alliance. Unfortunately, he will have to be put down or atleast get a wake up call where he has to completely change his views. Still even if Garrosh does fuck up right now, doesn't mean he won't go out a hero. What Horde hero hasn't fucked up at first? Grom Hellscream enslaved all the orcs to demonic taint but all was forgiven when he killed Magtheridon. Even Ogrim Doomhammer caused the fall of the Horde by trusting Gul'dan and killing Lothar. He was still the most badass orc ever to live. Have him realize his mistakes and apologize to Thrall and all will be forgiven. Who knows, he might even end up saving Thrall's ass someday. Point is story still isn't over and he could still end up being a great warchief...

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Unfortunately, he will have to be put down or atleast get a wake up call where he has to completely change his views.

Will he? Maybe he will be successful, get his way, and defeat the alliance once and for all. From the stuff from Cataclysm we’ve seen, Horde has been pretty much kicking the shit out of the alliance all over the place.


What Horde hero hasn't fucked up at first?

Most of the new generation of the Horde never “fucked up at first”, most notably Thrall.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Will he? Maybe he will be successful, get his way, and defeat the alliance once and for all. From the stuff from Cataclysm we’ve seen, Horde has been pretty much kicking the shit out of the alliance all over the place.

That's a possibility I guess.


Most of the new generation of the Horde never “fucked up at first”, most notably Thrall.

Well...if Thrall never allied with the Forsaken, Varian wouldn't have seen the Apothecary and associated those atrocities with the Horde. I also noticed what appears to be a lot of black Grimtotem Tauren are a part of Garrosh's army and are wielding what appears to be Plague Spreaders. He's allowed conspirators among his Horde and allowed them to grow into a powerful threat. I feel that he indirectly contributed to condemning his people to the all out war with the Alliance. He also seems to have messed up diplomacy with the Dwarves during that one quest where he tries to rescue Magni's daughter. Are these not examples of Thrall making mistakes?

[HalfElfDragon]

I get Garrosh. He's a guy who doesn't have a father, and is trying to live up to these stories about him that he hears, which are probably overinflated anyway. So he runs around trying to fight everything to prove that he's as awesome as his dad, who basically fought everything he ran in to. It's just that right now, he's a guy who has a small dick and so he bought a really loud pickup despite the fact that he lives in the suburbs and jacked it way up to hide his cock-shame.

While not everyone backs Varian, I think we can all agree he is usually a better-done character than Garrosh (except for Battle of Undercity, but I've aired my grievances about that thing's ending). A big reason for this is that we see Varian interact with people in non-adversarial ways. For example, from his interactions with Anduin we know that protecting his son is important, and he wants to provide Anduin with a peaceful kingdom to rule one day.

Garrosh doesn't have an Anduin or a Bolvar or a Tiffin to color his motivations. The only characters he has much interaction with lately are Thrall, who he is an asshole to, Saurfang, who he is an asshole to, and Varian, who he fights. Because we don't see his interactions with his friends, just his adversaries, we don't get to see in to his head very much. We generally accept that he does what he's doing to live up to his father's legacy, since Metzen mentioned that as his motivation not too long ago, but for all that it's portrayed, he might as well have a tiny dick and be buying Grand Traveller's Mammoths and putting them on stilts.

If they want to develop Garrosh, he needs to have a supporting cast arrayed around him. Perhaps he could be served by having a mentor, an older Warsong Orc who fought in the Second War with Grom and was bros with him. He'd be a mean-assed old Orc who believes only in battle prowess, and so Garrosh would be trying to win his respect sort of as a proxy for Grom.

I would like this. I've never been a fan of Garrosh, but we really only see him in his worst moments, which makes it hard for anybody to like him. He's underdeveloped

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Well...if Thrall never allied with the Forsaken, Varian wouldn't have seen the Apothecary and associated those atrocities with the Horde. I also noticed what appears to be a lot of black Grimtotem Tauren are a part of Garrosh's army and are wielding what appears to be Plague Spreaders. He's allowed conspirators among his Horde and allowed them to grow into a powerful threat. I feel that he indirectly contributed to condemning his people to the all out war with the Alliance. He also seems to have messed up diplomacy with the Dwarves during that one quest where he tries to rescue Magni's daughter. Are these not examples of Thrall making mistakes?

Thrall was a well-established and accomplished hero before any of the stuff you mentioned happened, hardly “at first”.

Maybe your contention should be - everybody makes mistakes?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Yeah I guess.

[AndyJP]

I knew a high-ranking Orc (http://www.wowwiki.com/Conqueror_Krenna) in Grizzly Hills that would have been perfect for him.

Do you think there is any chance he is possessed by a Dreadlord or is a powerful shape-shifter trying to provoke another great war between Alliance and Horde? Or that he's been hearing those whispers?

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

I rather doubt it.