Cataclysm and Blackrock Spire lore conflicts

[Triceron]

Hey all, new poster here. I'm a big lore buff and this has been bugging me for a while since Cataclysm was announced.


So prior to the Cataclysm announcement, we know so far that:

- Blackrock Spire is divided into two sections main sections, Blackrock Spire (UBRS, LBRS, BWL) and Blackrock Depths (BRD, MC).

-BRS is about Orcs and the Black Dragonflight alliance under Rend Blackhand, who works under Nefarion, son of Deathwing.
-BRD is about Dark Iron Dwarves working under Thaurissan, and conversely under Ragnaros.

The Orcs and the Dwarves are fighting against each other for control of the spire. One fights for the Black Dragonflight, one fights for the Elemental Lord.

In Cataclysm, it is revealed that Deathwing is working under the old gods. Ragnaros and the other Elemental Lords are also under the command of the old gods. So in essence, both are working for the same side.

So why are Nefarion and Ragnaros directly (or indirectly through their slave races) attacking each other if they are essentially working on the same side? Is it purely a territorial thing? Are these agents of chaos so devoted to the destruction of the world that they do not ally with their own side?

[Omacron]

Territory, and the fact that up until Cataclysm, Deathwing WASN'T working for the old gods. Not to mention that Deathwing isn't actually in control of BRS, but Nefarian, his son.

[HalfElfDragon]

Territory, and the fact that up until Cataclysm, Deathwing WASN'T working for the old gods. Not to mention that Deathwing isn't actually in control of BRS, but Nefarian, his son.

Not to mention Nefarian isn't exactly loyal to his father.

I think its stupid the Deathwing 'works' for the Old Gods. I know they drove him insane, but for once can someone they drove insane not work for them?

[Revenant]

Not to mention Nefarian isn't exactly loyal to his father.

I think its stupid the Deathwing 'works' for the Old Gods. I know they drove him insane, but for once can someone they drove insane not work for them?

Hopefully Blackwing decent will clear things up about Nefarian.

Do we know Deathwing's relationship to the Old Gods? Relationship as in 'thoughts about his bosses' not 'connections to'.

[Drz]

Deathwing is like Galvatron of Transformers. (Upgraded Megatron) He has a master but he is his own master pretty much. Kinda like the Joker who at times allies himself with.. lets say the Black Glove but when he's done with his business he either backstabs them or just goes doing his own thing.

[Cantus]

It's also important to note that the Elemental Lords, while definitely tied to the Old Gods, don't have to stick to just one boss either. They, like all evil factions, just want to get ahead and will side with whomever will drag them o the top (no pun intended.)

[Pajamasalad]

I thought the Elemental lords were chaotic neutral. They aren't "try to take over the world evil" just wild and destructive and thus dangerous like a hurricane or something.

[Xilizhra]

Basically, yes. The elemental legions aren't evil, they just don't care about anything other than the dominance of their element. And they don't particularly care about human life in the same way that we don't particularly care about putting out fires.

[ARM3481]

They aren't especially morally driven, but they also probably wouldn't mind conquering Azeroth either. After all, it's a lot easier to be chaotic whenever and wherever you want to when there aren't a bunch of ordered beings in charge trying to screw up your fun all the time. It's part of why they attack each other too; each Elemental Lord and his/her minions' activities is stymied by the presence of the others, so they're constantly trying to overwhelm and eliminate each other so that nothing's around to restrain them.

[Rolandius]

It's also important to note that the Elemental Lords, while definitely tied to the Old Gods, don't have to stick to just one boss either. They, like all evil factions, just want to get ahead and will side with whomever will drag them o the top (no pun intended.)

I am going with Cantus. They fight each other whenever they see an advantage. Just look at the Hydraxian Waterlords who may or may not still be under the control of an elemental lord and are fighting another elemental lord. Also look at the Elemental Plane. It is divided up by the 4 elemental lords and they are almost always in conflict except for Therazane. She still will fight though if needed.

[Kenzuki]

You also need to keep in mind that the Elemental Lords used to rule Azeroth as the Champions of the Old Gods.

[Daiol]

You also need to keep in mind that the Elemental Lords used to rule Azeroth as the Champions of the Old Gods.

I'd wonder if that's been or is going to be retconned. It really doesn't fit much anymore, the old view of Azeroth as a raging Elemental paradise, what with the Tauren, Troll, and Furbolgs having been pre-Titan intervention. Of course, that in itself could be solved by that damn two visitation thing.

[Revenant]

I'd wonder if that's been or is going to be retconned. It really doesn't fit much anymore, the old view of Azeroth as a raging Elemental paradise, what with the Tauren, Troll, and Furbolgs having been pre-Titan intervention. Of course, that in itself could be solved by that damn two visitation thing.

It can still fit if it was not all wasteland/battlefield. Some of the animal-ish Ancients may have been the result of natural selection (and magic?) in a chaotic time.

[Divinity]

Hey all, new poster here. I'm a big lore buff and this has been bugging me for a while since Cataclysm was announced.


So prior to the Cataclysm announcement, we know so far that:

- Blackrock Spire is divided into two sections main sections, Blackrock Spire (UBRS, LBRS, BWL) and Blackrock Depths (BRD, MC).

-BRS is about Orcs and the Black Dragonflight alliance under Rend Blackhand, who works under Nefarion, son of Deathwing.
-BRD is about Dark Iron Dwarves working under Thaurissan, and conversely under Ragnaros.

The Orcs and the Dwarves are fighting against each other for control of the spire. One fights for the Black Dragonflight, one fights for the Elemental Lord.

In Cataclysm, it is revealed that Deathwing is working under the old gods. Ragnaros and the other Elemental Lords are also under the command of the old gods. So in essence, both are working for the same side.

So why are Nefarion and Ragnaros directly (or indirectly through their slave races) attacking each other if they are essentially working on the same side? Is it purely a territorial thing? Are these agents of chaos so devoted to the destruction of the world that they do not ally with their own side?


The thing is your assuming that the Old Gods are telling their "underlings" who is working for them and to what aim.

To the best of our knowledge what the Old Gods want is to be freed from their "prisons", and whilst they may well be able to convince multiple forces to work together to achieve an aim, it doesnt appear so, it seems much more likely that they whisper a powerful being that is in charge of a great force, and convince him to get his people to do something for them, rather than whispering each indivdual person within that faction to do their bidding.

So rather than whispering every single Dark Iron, they need only whisper Thaurissan and tell him to get his people to work with Ragnaros to help free them. The same with the Black Flight, they "whisper" Deathwing and get him to get his black flight to do the Old Gods bidding.

Now it may seem like not a large jump for them to convince the two factions to work together, but it would seem that whispering an individual isnt as easy as it would seem. In Northrend on a few occaisions we get whispered but manage to resist, in the mine in Icecrown we manage to "turn" some miners back from being controlled and so obviously it's not as simple as whisper someone and they do your bidding, it appears you have to keep it subtle, and at least inline with what that person would do anyway.

So they whisper Thaurissan who has just had an almighty war with the rest of dwarfkind, and say "Hey buddy, you know you could get the upperhand on all those other dwarfs... want to know how? Well just summon this elemental lord and he will ensure your the most powerful race".

They also whisper Deathwing saying "We can help you rule the dragon flights, and the world... what you need to do is..." and proceed to convince Deathwing that by doing their bidding he will in fact be furthering his own cause.

Thaurissan would easily able to convince the rest of the dwarfs that its to their benefit to summon the elemental lord, whilst Deathwing would of course be able to convince the blacks to do what he wants, where as convincing them to work alongside each other would probably be a bridge to far, as their individual aims are different and both parties think they are doing their own bidding rather than the Old Gods.