Anshe-Holy Light connection

[cenkiss]

Do you think anshe will be connected to holy light somehow?

[RobLore]

Yes.

Since most, most likely the Sunwalkers will follow An'she and they use Holy spells.

[Drz]

I'd say we wait and see how the lore will go.

Tauren Priests will surely beleive in Anshe, but the Paladins? Meh sure it does seem obvious that they will follow Anshe too since there the Sunwalkers, but you don't see Blood Knights being Blood worshippers or anything. It's just a racial title like the Vindicator.

[Wart]

It'll be interesting to see what the connection between An'she and the Holy Light is as the Holy Light has never been a faith with a deity.

I've always assumed that Tauren Priests won't just be Priests of An'she, but Mu'sha too. So, the Druids are Mu'sha, the Paladins are An'she and the Priests are both, and represent the balance between the two.

[Zun]

While "The Holy Light" is a specific religion in WoW, it doesn't have exclusive rights to the words "holy" and "light".

So, Sunwalkers might be calling on the holy light of An'she, just like Night Elf priests might be calling on the holy light of Elune. Holy means anything divine or sacred. So to the Tauren anything from An'she could be described as holy.

It gets a bit convoluted, but I don't think we'll get an actual explanation of any sort of relationship between An'she and "The Holy Light". I imagine, similar to the treatment of Elune, the exact nature of any possible connection will be left entirely vague and open to interpretation.

[Lon-ami]

I think their source of power won't be the same as original paladins.

They'll be probably using the holy light of An'she, the same way the night elf priests use the holy light of Mu'sha. The problem here is that all those different types are so similar, and they end up as the same classes.

[Wart]

But Paladins have always been shown as specifically followers of the Holy Light, aka the religion followed by Humans, Dwarves, Draenei and Blood Elves. Hence why the races who are priests, but don't follow the Holy Light (Night Elves + Elune, Trolls + the Loas, Forsaken + Forgotten Shadow) don't have Paladins. Taurens having Paladins implies to me at least, that there is a link somewhere between the Holy Light that Humans, Dwarves, Draenei and Blood Elves use and An'she.

Otherwise if An'she Holy Light allows for Tauren Paladins, then surely Mu'sha should allow for Night Elf Paladins. And even Troll Paladins that use the Holy Light of the Loa Gods.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Unless they're not "paladins" in the traditional sense, but "sunwalkers" who are totally different and just have abilities that look and sound like what paladins use enough to appear as the same class for gameplay. I believe this is the case, and there will be no conenction to the Holy Light.

[Lon-ami]

Unless they're not "paladins" in the traditional sense, but "sunwalkers" who are totally different and just have abilities that look and sound like what paladins use enough to appear as the same class for gameplay. I believe this is the case, and there will be no conenction to the Holy Light.

Yeah, that's it.

The Silver Hand and the Hand of Argus are paladins and vindicators, respectively, and I think they aren't 100% the same style-wise. The paladins didn't know about the naaru, for example. In the end, they are the same, but in the origin, they have nothing to do with each other.

[Kenzuki]

Unless they're not "paladins" in the traditional sense, but "sunwalkers" who are totally different and just have abilities that look and sound like what paladins use enough to appear as the same class for gameplay. I believe this is the case, and there will be no conenction to the Holy Light.

This reminds me alot of the god Amaunator from Forgotten Realms. He was an ancient deity of the Sun and Law, and later he fades away, and a newer deity named Lathander appears, who is the god of the morning and light. Later on you find out that the rumors about Amaunator and Lathander being the same god are true, because after the Spellplague he becomes Amaunator again.

To get straight to the point, this whole "Sunwalker" thing reminds me of the special priests of Amaunator called "Sunlords".

[Wart]

I'd argue that although Paladins, Vindicators and Blood Knights are different in style and origin, they could all be linked back to the same source.

On the subject of spells, Seal of Corruption is one I'm wondering about. Whilst it fits well with Blood Elves, it doesnt with Tauren. I wonder if they'll change it for them, making three variations of the same spell.

[Zun]

Otherwise if An'she Holy Light allows for Tauren Paladins, then surely Mu'sha should allow for Night Elf Paladins. And even Troll Paladins that use the Holy Light of the Loa Gods.

Just because an explanation that might work for Tauren Paladins could also explain Night Elf or Troll Paladins, doesn't mean that Blizzard must therefore add them to the game. Blizzard still gets to pick and choose which stories they want to tell.

Look at Blood Elf warriors. There was no lore reason why Blood Elves couldn't be warriors. But, when it came down to deciding which classes Blood Elves would get and it became clear that something had to give, it was warriors that got the axe. The Blood Elf story Blizz wanted to tell was better represented by other classes.

In this case, Night Elf and Troll paladins aren't part of the story Blizzard wants to tell right now, they want to talk about Night Elf mages and Troll Druids.

Edit: Also, what connections there might be between An'she and the Holy Light is really hard to say with what we know, as they're both very abstract things. We know the mythology of An'she, but is she literally the eye of the Earthmother? Or is that simply mythology and folk lore and An'she is in fact a ball of gas burning brightly in the sky?

We know that the Naruu are tied to the Holy Light...but are they the entire source of the Light? Are they the Light itself? Where do the Naruu actually come from?

[Drz]

Sometimes i wish Blizzard would give racial class names the titles they have instead of slapping Paladin to it. It just annoys me if the Tauren Paladin aren't tied to the Holy Light.

I mean whats next? Goblin Shamans don't really believe in shamanism and the spirits, but they just invented some machine to make the elements do as they wish, are we going to see Druidism created thru botanists? :sweatdrop

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

We know the mythology of An'she, but is she literally the eye of the Earthmother? Or is that simply mythology and folk lore and An'she is in fact a ball of gas burning brightly in the sky?

Almost all religions in the fantasy warcraft world are pretty much accurate. After all, if you pray to a god and they grant you power it is at least a prima facie confirmation that such a god actually exists and answers your prayers. I see no reason to think that the Tauren religion is the only one that is incorrect and their god is nothing but a sun.

Sometimes i wish Blizzard would give racial class names the titles they have instead of slapping Paladin to it. It just annoys me if the Tauren Paladin aren't tied to the Holy Light.

Eh, I’m okay with it. It’s just a mechanic. I mean the little info box that appears on mouse-over isn’t there in the lore. Would it really make a difference if they were simply labeled “sunwalkers” but played in every other tangible way as paladins? I contend it would just needlessly complicate gameplay. We know in lore they’re not exactly a “paladin” and they’re really a “sunwalker”, so it’s cool.

[Drz]

I dunno dude, i just don't like the fact a class is called a Paladin when they aren't really. Then again having Draenei called Vindicator and Blood elves as Blood knights would be cool, heh. =p

[cenkiss]

We don't know anything about anshe.Just some tauren mythologies.Maybe he is a source of light,or light itself or something else and tauren don't know it.They call it with different name,just like they call Musha(Elune) and Aparo(Malorne).All the paladins follow holy light.Humans,dwarves,draenei,blood elves.Tauren may be following the holy light but differently than others.

[Ashendant]

it's already been hinted that the tauren paladins and the normal paladins are worshipping the same thing under different names, i've mentioned this before, it's in blue posts in the cata forums explaing a few of the classes races combo...

to repeat myself

How do you know that, exactly? :)
Players often like to think of the lore in an absolute, objective sense, but the relative, subjective sense according to a given culture is equally important to consider. In the absolute sense, the Tauren worship Elune as one of the powers. In a relative sense they do not -- they pay homage to Mu'sha, one of the eyes of the Earthmother.

[Fordragon]

Well, the problem with a statement like that is that the Church of the Holy Light doesn't worship a THING at all. It's a non-theistic religion.

[Omacron]

Almost all religions in the fantasy warcraft world are pretty much accurate. After all, if you pray to a god and they grant you power it is at least a prima facie confirmation that such a god actually exists and answers your prayers. I see no reason to think that the Tauren religion is the only one that is incorrect and their god is nothing but a sun.
Yeah, but take Mu'sha for an example. We don't know whether or not Mu'sha is a full goddess or just the eye of a larger and more comprehensive one? I see it like the Abrahamic faiths- some believe Jesus is the messiah, others believe he is "just" a prophet.



Eh, I’m okay with it. It’s just a mechanic. I mean the little info box that appears on mouse-over isn’t there in the lore. Would it really make a difference if they were simply labeled “sunwalkers” but played in every other tangible way as paladins? I contend it would just needlessly complicate gameplay. We know in lore they’re not exactly a “paladin” and they’re really a “sunwalker”, so it’s cool.

Like the blood elves, I think, at first, Sunwalkers will be portrayed as following something other than the light and just having similar powers, but will eventually be tied into using the same force as other paladins as the expansion rolls on. Perhaps there's a naaru on the sun, or the titans edited the sun in order to make it a font of what would later be known as the light? I mean, I think there's even a bit of sun reverence among human light-worshippers, since the argent crusade's banner includes a sun. And I mean, what's not to love about the sun? It radiates light, keeps us warm and, in a way, embodies the three virtues.

[HalfElfDragon]

I think that there is Light Energy, just as there is Arcane energy, and the Holy Light, An'she worship, the Naaru, they're all just ways to access it.

[Lon-ami]

It's what they have told us many times:

Fire is fire, and its the same in shamans and mages.

The difference is in its summoning.

[SicilianNecktie]

It's what they have told us many times:

Fire is fire, and its the same in shamans and mages.

The difference is in its summoning.

Thank you.

All of the races are calling upon similar sources of power to do what they ask. However, the confusion comes when you have a source appealing to one person more than another. For example, when Tirion was ejected from the Order of the Silver Hand, he mentioned that he felt colder, with less power, and could barely call upon the light at all (For a brief period). Why is it that he had less control over this power? This leads one to believe that the sources of magic in WoW aren't purely resevoirs of power, but actual "beings" that can think and distinguish, that can choose and judge.

So, while I believe that Sunwalkers, Naaru, and good ol' Silver Hand Paladins get their power from the same source, I also think that source can distinguish and choose who to give it to; that the source is sentient and thinking. This makes me think about other sources; what about fire, water, earth, wind, arcane, shadow, etc.? Are all those elements also sentient, and granting their power to those who they wish?

Gosh... I hate it when you get to the point where you remember that Metzen probably hasn't considered any of these possiblities at all. Makes me feel really nerdy, lol.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

This leads one to believe that the sources of magic in WoW aren't purely resevoirs of power, but actual "beings" that can think and distinguish, that can choose and judge.

So, while I believe that Sunwalkers, Naaru, and good ol' Silver Hand Paladins get their power from the same source, I also think that source can distinguish and choose who to give it to; that the source is sentient and thinking.

They are actual beings. The powers of Priestesses of the Moon come from Elune, an actual Goddess. Same with the Loa. The Holy Light is also a tangible force of good, though not technically a God it is certainly more than a neutral power to be tapped like the Arcane. While all those powers fall under the general category of “Divine power”, they are not all the same thing and do not come from the same source.

Therefore, should the Tauren get their power from a God like Elune, it will be a different source entirely than the Holy Light the Naaru and paladins use.

This makes me think about other sources; what about fire, water, earth, wind, arcane, shadow, etc.? Are all those elements also sentient, and granting their power to those who they wish?

Yes. Reference Shamans speaking with the elements and the elements refusing to answer when the orcs went bad.

[Fordragon]

Well, as far as arcane energy goes, I don't think so. Judging by the gnomes' approach (and success) with the Arcane, it seems to function at least somewhat like electricity. You attach the device, close the circuit, and current is directed.

[Omacron]

The difference between shaman fire and mage fire is how they start. Shaman fire comes directly from the fire spirit. Mage fire is arcane energy transformed INTO thermal energy.

[Zun]

They are actual beings. The powers of Priestesses of the Moon come from Elune, an actual Goddess. Same with the Loa. The Holy Light is also a tangible force of good, though not technically a God it is certainly more than a neutral power to be tapped like the Arcane. While all those powers fall under the general category of “Divine power”, they are not all the same thing and do not come from the same source.

Therefore, should the Tauren get their power from a God like Elune, it will be a different source entirely than the Holy Light the Naaru and paladins use.


That's talking in a lot of absolutes about things that seem to have been intentionally described with an air of mystery and mythology in game. For example, a Priestess of the Moon believes in Elune, and believes that her powers come from Elune, but it can't actually be explicitly proven. It's a matter of faith.

Someone raised the example of Tirion losing his powers when he was excommunicated as a suggestion that the Holy Light might be sentient. Yet, isn't it entirely possible that Tirion's faith was weakened having been ousted from the Knights of Silverhand for doing the honorable thing?

Also, who's we don't know where the Holy Light comes from. Who's to say it doesn't originate from Divine beings like Elune, or An'she?

[Omacron]

Someone raised the example of Tirion losing his powers when he was excommunicated as a suggestion that the Holy Light might be sentient. Yet, isn't it entirely possible that Tirion's faith was weakened having been ousted from the Knights of Silverhand for doing the honorable thing?

That's just another reason why I maintain that "the light"/holy magic is actually a psychic force that is accessed by your own faith and belief. You believe someone's preventing you from using it, and you can't use it.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

That's talking in a lot of absolutes about things that seem to have been intentionally described with an air of mystery and mythology in game. For example, a Priestess of the Moon believes in Elune, and believes that her powers come from Elune, but it can't actually be explicitly proven. It's a matter of faith.

It’s a fantasy world. Their religions are real, as are their gods. Their powers come from Elune, we even have profiles on Elune herself and detailed information from the writers. Unlike actual religion, the sources in this world are real, tangible, and can be explicitly proven.


Someone raised the example of Tirion losing his powers when he was excommunicated as a suggestion that the Holy Light might be sentient. Yet, isn't it entirely possible that Tirion's faith was weakened having been ousted from the Knights of Silverhand for doing the honorable thing?

Also, who's we don't know where the Holy Light comes from. Who's to say it doesn't originate from Divine beings like Elune, or An'she?

I think the Light is more semi-sentient. Its explicitly stated to not be a god, but its like a force of goodness. I think because Tirion doubted himself and thought that he actually was unworthy, he felt weakened.

[Fordragon]

I think the Light is more semi-sentient. Its explicitly stated to not be a god, but its like a force of goodness. I think because Tirion doubted himself and thought that he actually was unworthy, he felt weakened.

It's basically the Blood Elves/Naaru story in reverse, now that I think of it. Both involve magic feathers and realizing that THE MAGIC WAS IN YOU ALL ALONG.

[SicilianNecktie]

I don't know if I'm coming along very clear... I'm gonna go make a chart once i finish my homework to see if i can make it clearer.

[Rolandius]

It'll be interesting to see what the connection between An'she and the Holy Light is as the Holy Light has never been a faith with a deity.

Yes it has. God. I don't think paladins have those abilities just because they "think" they do.

That's talking in a lot of absolutes about things that seem to have been intentionally described with an air of mystery and mythology in game. For example, a Priestess of the Moon believes in Elune, and believes that her powers come from Elune, but it can't actually be explicitly proven. It's a matter of faith.

Someone raised the example of Tirion losing his powers when he was excommunicated as a suggestion that the Holy Light might be sentient. Yet, isn't it entirely possible that Tirion's faith was weakened having been ousted from the Knights of Silverhand for doing the honorable thing?

Tyrande had a protective shield around her in War of the Ancients from Elune automagically. She had to "ask" Elune several times to turn it off to accept something from Vashj. That would mean she was arguing with herself to turn it off if it was just faith.

The same thing with Tirion. If I remember, Tirion felt his powers go away at the moment they took them away. His faith wasn't weakened at that exact second but he thought his powers were gone. Later his faith was weak before he tried to use his healing powers but he tried anyway and suddenly they worked.

So it is a two way street. The Light has God and you must have faith in order to use the powers given to you. If you don't have faith then God is still there but you won't be able to use your powers. If there is no God then where would these powers come from? You can't just believe you have powers and suddenly you are using them.

[Omacron]

The light is sentient in the sense that it comes from sentient beings.

[Rolandius]

The light is sentient in the sense that it comes from sentient beings.

It comes from God.

[Zun]

In WoW, there is no God. There are many gods, but there is no God. There's certainly no God in the Church of the Holy Light.

[Fordragon]

It comes from God.

That hasn't been true since WarCraft 1, and they've gone out of their way repeatedly to retcon it.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

That hasn't been true since WarCraft 1, and they've gone out of their way repeatedly to retcon it.

Indeed. I'm kind of shocked we're actually seeing someone advance such an antiquated position.

[Omacron]

I still believe that, ultimately, the light used by every individual comes from that individual. It matters not whether that individual believes in elune or the sun, the holy light or the loa, the only difference is what they BELIEVE their powers can do, IE, cultural wisdom says that the holy light damages undead, therefore, priests of the holy light can damage undead.

[SicilianNecktie]

Here we go;
The Naaru are higher up than Sunwalkers or Paladins because they are "beings of light". As for Mu'sha, I believe that force is from the force of shadow; Shadow doesn't necessarily equal evil. As to dieties of each force, such as elune, she fits in with the Naaru, as a champion, or embodiment of that force. Of course, this is just my speculation

[Urth]

Stretch that chart to include Trolls > Loa and Night Elves > Elune, and see this thread blow the eff up!

[Rolandius]

Okay so all religions have gods but the Holy Light? Paladins have powers from the Holy Light because they believe in it so much that it automagically appears?

Just like someone mentioned before that there has to be something giving the person who has the faith power, the same goes with the Holy Light. Also God was not last mentioned in Warcraft I.

[SicilianNecktie]

Okay so all religions have gods but the Holy Light? Paladins have powers from the Holy Light because they believe in it so much that it automagically appears?


No, no, no. I'm saying there is one holy, sentient force of light. The Paladins have named it the light, and the Tauren have named it An'She. Holy Light and An'she are just names given to this sentient, unnamed power.

[Urth]

The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow also does not have a deity.

And yes, the theory is that "faith" does something to the Humanoid mind that allows the Holy in, through, and out.

I can't really describe it more accurately without picturing chakras in an elevator shaft and the ending scene of Dark Crystal.

[Rolandius]

No, no, no. I'm saying there is one holy, sentient force of light. The Paladins have named it the light, and the Tauren have named it An'She. Holy Light and An'she are just names given to this sentient, unnamed power.

I wasn't referring to your chart SicilianNecktie. I was responding to the posts right before yours. They were saying, if I read it right, that there is nothing giving powers to the people but that it just comes from within.

The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow also does not have a deity.

And yes, the theory is that "faith" does something to the Humanoid mind that allows the Holy in, through, and out.

I can't really describe it more accurately without picturing chakras in an elevator shaft and the ending scene of Dark Crystal.

That is what I am saying. It is a two way street. You can faith, but if there is nothing out there, you cannot get whichever power in, through, and out.

I will take Tirion for instance. It is like some "admins" (the judges at Tririon's trial) took away his powers and exiled him. They thought they were right and everything. When Tirion tried to use his powers he found that they were still with him. A "bureaucrat" (God or whichever name you want to use) had overriden the admins' decision because it was wrong. Tirion could have just went off somewhere and never known that his powers were reinstated and lost faith but he tried to heal someone and found that they worked.

If the powers only come from a person, than anyone could "think" that they are a paladin and the powers would come to them instead of an initiate going through the whole paladin ritual like they do.

[SicilianNecktie]

The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow also does not have a deity.

And yes, the theory is that "faith" does something to the Humanoid mind that allows the Holy in, through, and out.

I can't really describe it more accurately without picturing chakras in an elevator shaft and the ending scene of Dark Crystal.

Cult of the forgotten shadow might not be a diety, but directly powered by this unnamed source, and the shadow unnamed source. Some people give these sources names, but there is really no need.

[Urth]

No, I was AGREEING with you. Human religions in WoW don't have "Gods".

And yes, Holy and Shadow would both fit on your chart.

[Zun]

If the powers only come from a person, than anyone could "think" that they are a paladin and the powers would come to them instead of an initiate going through the whole paladin ritual like they do.

There's a lot more to faith then just thinking is something is true.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

We don’t know much about An’she other than he is the Sun God in the Tauren Pantheon and a “child” of the Earth Mother. As it stands now, he has absolutely no connection to the tangible force that is the Holy Light. I think since the Tauren also recognize Elune as a deity, and Elune is a true deity as we know, then An’she is most likely another God in the vein of Elune and not an interpretation of the Holy Light, which is not a god.

The Holy Light, however, is clearly stated to be a non-theistic religion. The Light is a force (kind of similar to The Force). It doesn’t just exist inside your mind, its an actual force. There is no God in their religion though, that is extremely out-dated info.

[SicilianNecktie]

We don’t know much about An’she other than he is the Sun God in the Tauren Pantheon and a “child” of the Earth Mother. As it stands now, he has absolutely no connection to the tangible force that is the Holy Light. I think since the Tauren also recognize Elune as a deity, and Elune is a true deity as we know, then An’she is most likely another God in the vein of Elune and not an interpretation of the Holy Light, which is not a god.

The Holy Light, however, is clearly stated to be a non-theistic religion. The Light is a force (kind of similar to The Force). It doesn’t just exist inside your mind, its an actual force. There is no God in their religion though, that is extremely out-dated info.

I thought An'she was one of the eyes of the Earthmother, not so much the child. Basically, a part of the earthmother's soul.

[Zun]

I thought An'she was one of the eyes of the Earthmother, not so much the child. Basically, a part of the earthmother's soul.

Indeed An'she (the sun) and Mu'sha (the moon) are the Earthmother's eyes. I can't remember why she threw them into the heavens =/

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

I thought An'she was one of the eyes of the Earthmother, not so much the child. Basically, a part of the earthmother's soul.

That’s why child was in quotes. It seemed to me like weird god procreation, like Athena being birthed out of Zeus’ forehead. The story makes it seem like the Earth Mother still remained her own entity while An’she became one of its own and not merely an extension.


Indeed An'she (the sun) and Mu'sha (the moon) are the Earthmother's eyes. I can't remember why she threw them into the heavens =/

Some Tauren fell to “dark whispers” and started fighting with the good Tauren. The race as a whole lost their innocence, and the Earth Mother couldn’t bare to watch it.

[SicilianNecktie]

I dunno, look at it kinda like Christianity's Holy Trinity; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not all 3 seperate beings, but all 3 are one of one divine being.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

I see them as a metaphysical “part” of the Earthmother, sure. I think they’re separate entities in their own respect too though, at least enough to be distinct in their own ways. Jesus, for example, is not synonymous with God.

[Fordragon]

If the powers only come from a person, than anyone could "think" that they are a paladin and the powers would come to them instead of an initiate going through the whole paladin ritual like they do.

Except that training to be a Paladin is hard. You don't just say "I am going to be a Paladin" and suddenly you can heal the sick and wounded while whipping magic exploding hammers at people. This is why there are Paladins who are not Knights of the Silver Hand, but why not everyone can just be a Paladin because they want to.

You don't call the Light simply with a conscious decision. You have to believe, with the whole of your being. That's why the Naaru deception, the Blood Elves had to BELIEVE that they could use the Light. If you had just walked up to them and said "Yo, dudes. The light is inside you, use it" they might have THOUGHT they could, but they would not BELIEVE they could.

[Zun]

"I am going to be a Paladin" and suddenly you can heal the sick and wounded while whipping magic exploding hammers at people.

But man, how handy would that be when some jerk cuts you off on the highway?

[Urth]

WAITMINUTE

IF An'she was born to combat the "dark whisperer", who we can all safely assume is Old God activity, which is primarily Shadow-based magics...

An'she might be all Holy light, and only interpreted as the Sun.

If the "Evil" Tauren are characterized more as something An'she is very angry about and built to purge... then I have no problems with the Sunwalker Retribution tree.

[Omacron]

Except that training to be a Paladin is hard. You don't just say "I am going to be a Paladin" and suddenly you can heal the sick and wounded while whipping magic exploding hammers at people. This is why there are Paladins who are not Knights of the Silver Hand, but why not everyone can just be a Paladin because they want to.

You don't call the Light simply with a conscious decision. You have to believe, with the whole of your being. That's why the Naaru deception, the Blood Elves had to BELIEVE that they could use the Light. If you had just walked up to them and said "Yo, dudes. The light is inside you, use it" they might have THOUGHT they could, but they would not BELIEVE they could.

Yeah, you can't just "believe" you're a paladin as that also requires martial training... but you can "believe" you're a priest, by my theory. I mean, it works for the scientologists and all these other pyramid scheme religions, no?

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

WAITMINUTE

IF An'she was born to combat the "dark whisperer", who we can all safely assume is Old God activity, which is primarily Shadow-based magics...

An'she might be all Holy light, and only interpreted as the Sun.

If the "Evil" Tauren are characterized more as something An'she is very angry about and built to purge... then I have no problems with the Sunwalker Retribution tree.

The Earthmother didn't rip out here eyes to get vengeance on the Old Gods, she ripped them out because she was disgusted with the loss of innocence of her chosen people. She ripped out both An’she and Mu’sha (Elune).


Yeah, you can't just "believe" you're a paladin as that also requires martial training... but you can "believe" you're a priest, by my theory. I mean, it works for the scientologists and all these other pyramid scheme religions, no?

Yeah, I don’t think L. Ron Hubbard was blasting anyone with magical energy bolts though.

I am with you that you must believe, but that is part of accessing the Holy Light, not its source.

[Omacron]

I am with you that you must believe, but that is part of accessing the Holy Light, not its source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan

[Yuber8900]

Yeah, I don’t think L. Ron Hubbard was blasting anyone with magical energy bolts though.

Not in public at least.

[Cantus]

Not in public at least.

I always heard he could shoot fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse.

[Exxile87]

I always heard he could shoot fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse.

That was William Wallace. But who knows, L. Ron was the beast.

[Rolandius]

Where do all the angel-like themes come from in WoW then? What about the wings the paladins get sometimes or holy priests turning into an angel-like being? The "force" gives it to them?

[SicilianNecktie]

Where do all the angel-like themes come from in WoW then? What about the wings the paladins get sometimes or holy priests turning into an angel-like being? The "force" gives it to them?

That could be one of the the holy force's ways of embodiment as energy. I dunno, I'm sleepy, I'll talk about it tomorrow.

[Rolandius]

Well one thing is for sure, the references to God didn't end with Warcraft I as someone mentioned earlier.

[devius]

I see the angel wings and stuff like that as an example of the coconut effect. People expect "Holy effects" to look like that, and the art department draws angelic wings and whatnot, to give the players what they think they want.

If it was all light effects, blizzard would probably get complaints in the shape of "The Paladins aren't holy enough, they're supposed to be serving the holy light".

[Fordragon]

Well one thing is for sure, the references to God didn't end with Warcraft I as someone mentioned earlier.

No, they pretty much did, unless God became an Angel when I wasn't looking (HINT: He's not). There are occasional angel wings and such (which are, as has been said, mostly the Coconut Effect) but there haven't been God references since WC1.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Mini-Tyreal is irrefutable proof!

Seriously though, the Holy Light is directly stated to be “non-theistic”, and calling it a force is straight from the actual lore, not speculation.

Also, as already mentioned, that’s what stereotypical holy spells looks like. Why are shadow spells creepy skulls? Furthermore, spell animations are not really great lore indicators. Why does an angry dwarf face appear above my warrior’s head when he goes berserk? Does that happen in lore? No. Even furthermore, as Fordragon suggested, angelic imagery and even angelic beings are no indication that “God” exists. They could be creatures of the Light or profoundly influenced by it or “one with it” or any number of other explanations.

[Rolandius]

No, they pretty much did, unless God became an Angel when I wasn't looking (HINT: He's not). There are occasional angel wings and such (which are, as has been said, mostly the Coconut Effect) but there haven't been God references since WC1.

Here are some references I was able to find. More may be out there but this should satisfy you.

Warcraft II - "Deo Gratias" which means "Thanks be to God".

Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness - The Official Strategy Guide - "...the Maker..."

Day of the Dragon - "...clearly it was chosen by a higher power that your paths would lead you to us."

Warcraft III manual - "Others believe that the universe, as it exists, was
created as a whole by a singular, all-powerful entity."

"The Titans and the Shaping of the Universe" on the website - "Others believe that the universe was created as a whole by a single all-powerful entity."

"Mythology of the Titans" in WoW - "Others believe that the universe was created as a whole by a single all-powerful entity."

[Omacron]

Here are some references I was able to find. More may be out there but this should satisfy you.

Warcraft II - "Deo Gratias" which means "Thanks be to God".
Latin doesn't exist in Warcraft, though. "Deo Gratias" could mean something else in common.

Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness - The Official Strategy Guide - "...the Maker..."
"Maker" or "the makers" are actually epithets frequently granted to the titans, not a Christian-like god.

Day of the Dragon - "...clearly it was chosen by a higher power that your paths would lead you to us."
The light is definitely a "higher power", but not necessarily a monotheistic deity.

Warcraft III manual - "Others believe that the universe, as it exists, was
created as a whole by a singular, all-powerful entity."

"The Titans and the Shaping of the Universe" on the website - "Others believe that the universe was created as a whole by a single all-powerful entity."

"Mythology of the Titans" in WoW - "Others believe that the universe was created as a whole by a single all-powerful entity."
Who says this entity has to at all resemble "god"? For all we know it could be a giant sea-cucumber who uses ice spells.

[Fordragon]

Clearly, you're not differentiating between "a god" and "God." Let's break this down

Warcraft II - "Deo Gratias" which means "Thanks be to God".
A phrase that pops up when you click something, that is in Latin, a language that doesn't exist in Azeroth. Warhammers also cost 40k and Paladins get sexually molested by a disembodied hand.

Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness - The Official Strategy Guide - "...the Maker..."

You mean, Khaz'goroth?

Day of the Dragon - "...clearly it was chosen by a higher power that your paths would lead you to us."

So any higher power equals God? Higher powers could be any of the bajillion mysterious powers that exist on Azeroth, from the Elements to the Titans.

Warcraft III manual - "Others believe that the universe, as it exists, was created as a whole by a singular, all-powerful entity."

That's "a god," not "God" like they referred to in WC1. And even still, saying "some believe" is a wiggle-word that authors use to propose off-the-wall theories. As an example, in one of the more recent BTech sourcebooks, they use the phrase "some believe" to preceed the most elaborate conspiracy theory in the history of the Inner Sphere which is easily disproven with first-hand knowledge gleaned from novels.

"The Titans and the Shaping of the Universe" on the website - "Others believe that the universe was created as a whole by a single all-powerful entity."

See above.

"Mythology of the Titans" in WoW - "Others believe that the universe was created as a whole by a single all-powerful entity."

See above. Again. You seem to have trouble with this whole "confusing the idea of a god with the idea that the Judeo-Christian God exists in WarCraft" thing. There are gods, beings of power that are worshipped. There is no God With a Capital G, Jehovah, YVWH or whatever you would like to call him, in WarCraft, and there hasn't been since they went out of their way to replace the stuff referring to him in WC1 with the non-theistic Church of the Holy Light.

[Rolandius]

I know about the whole retcon moving away from God in Warcraft. I am just saying that there are still references that some believe in God. Also there aren't that many references to a single "entity", besides God, which races refer to creating the whole universe. Giant sea-cucumber? No. I am not even including the multitude of references to angels since you said they could be some crazy race not connected to God.

[Fordragon]

How would they believe in God? Did Moses guide his people through Tanaris and to the Thousand Needles and deliver them the Ten Commandments? Certainly there was no Genesis, because we KNOW where Azerothian humans came from. There is "god" and then there is "God." Half the reason they removed all that stuff was that to have people believing in a deity whose religions involved actual people from Earth history was goofy as hell.

Just because they refer to a singular deity, that does not make it an automatic reference to Jehovah. You're making a huge jump in logic in assuming that, because people believe in a single all-powerful being, they believe in God. Night Elves believe in such a being, after all.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Those people who may believe in God are not members of the Church of the Holy Light. Their belief system is detailed. The inclusion of that off-handed comment is likely to hand-wave off the lingering “God” references from the original game. They’ve done similar with other retcons, like the “some believe Lothar was still ambushed by Doomhammer”.

[Rolandius]

How would they believe in God? Did Moses guide his people through Tanaris and to the Thousand Needles and deliver them the Ten Commandments? Certainly there was no Genesis, because we KNOW where Azerothian humans came from. There is "god" and then there is "God." Half the reason they removed all that stuff was that to have people believing in a deity whose religions involved actual people from Earth history was goofy as hell.

Okay tell me the name of another deity that people in Warcraft have been known to worship and who they think created the whole universe.

[Fordragon]

Elune.

Incidentally, you still haven't offered the slightest shred of direct evidence that the god referred to is the Judeo-Christian God Jehovah, and not just "god."

[Rolandius]

Elune.

Incidentally, you still haven't offered the slightest shred of direct evidence that the god referred to is the Judeo-Christian God Jehovah, and not just "god."

I don't see anything saying that Elune is connected to the whole universe.

I am not saying the entity is called "Judeo-Christian God Jehovah". Just God. That is the only entity we know of in Warcraft that could be connected to those references unless you want to go with the name "Unknown Single Entity That Sounds Like God Which People Worshipped Earlier In Warcraft But Is Now Only Referenced To" or "USETSLGWPWEIWBINORT" for short. Also "god" wouldn't be correct because that is just a general name for something worshipped from a turtle to the Titans.

[Fordragon]

Night Elves regard Elune as their creator figure, and it's never specified exactly where she stopped with the creating.

I am not saying the entity is called "Judeo-Christian God Jehovah". Just God. That is the only entity we know of in Warcraft that could be connected to those references unless you want to go with the name "Unknown Single Entity That Sounds Like God Which People Worshipped Earlier In Warcraft But Is Now Only Referenced To" or "USETSLGWPWEIWBINORT" for short. Also "god" wouldn't be correct because that is just a general name for something worshipped from a turtle to the Titans.

That's not what you were saying. When you capitalize God, you are talking about, very specifically, God. That is how English works, mostly due to the strong influence of Christianity upon England. So since you are not talking about the Judeo-Christian God, you are talking about god.

There are people who believe in god in WarCraft. There might even be one. There is not, however, God in WarCraft any longer. It has been excised because having Earth religions on Azeroth made no sense.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

That's not what you were saying. When you capitalize God, you are talking about a specific God. That is how English works, mostly due to the strong influence of Christianity upon England. So since you are not talking about the Judeo-Christian God, you are talking about god.

It simply can’t be the Judeo-Christian God. The religion and the history don’t exist on Azeroth. At best, it could be a rough analogue.


There are people who believe in god in WarCraft. There might even be one. There is not, however, God in WarCraft any longer.

I mean who believes in this “God” in Warcraft? The clerics of Northshire? We know that’s not true anymore. The Silver Hand? No way.

[Rolandius]

That's not what you were saying. When you capitalize God, you are talking about a specific God. That is how English works, mostly due to the strong influence of Christianity upon England. So since you are not talking about the Judeo-Christian God, you are talking about god.

There are people who believe in god in WarCraft. There might even be one. There is not, however, God in WarCraft any longer.

That is because it was capitalized by Blizzard. I know; now no longer; retcon; Church of the Holy Light is a philosophy. They have not retconned it enough to me. Those references still refer to something and that is the only name we know of. If you add in the angel references which are included into WoW, that makes it more obvious who they refer to. Also God was connected to the Holy Light and I don't think it is a coincendance that people who believe in the Holy Light have powers. I just don't think a "force" is able to give people powers by them just saying "I believe in some thing, which is not an entity, called the Holy Light". That is Star Wars.

[Fordragon]

And I'm not convinced that Blood Elves shouldn't be ethnically cleansed, but I don't go arguing with people about it. If anything, what the Holy Light is most comparable to is a sort of Dur Wille Zur Macht, not the constant, divine interventions of a deity.

[ARM3481]

They have not retconned it enough to me.

At which point is it retconned "enough", then? :raisedbro

That is Star Wars.

And? Similar ideas do happen in different media, you know.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

That is because it was capitalized by Blizzard. I know; now no longer; retcon; Church of the Holy Light is a philosophy. They have not retconned it enough to me. Those references still refer to something and that is the only name we know of. If you add in the angel references which are included into WoW, that makes it more obvious who they refer to.

“Angelic-type beings” do not in any way confirm there is God. Look at the Val’kyr. Demons don’t confirm there is a Satan because of conventional real-world religious associations either.

Also God was connected to the Holy Light

Because the Holy Light was the religion they substituted for what was basically Christianity in the early games. Those clerics did not believe in “God” anymore, and were retconed to never have in the first place.

and I don't think it is a coincendance that people who believe in the Holy Light have powers. I just don't think a "force" is able to give people powers by them just saying "I believe in some thing, which is not an entity, called the Holy Light". That is Star Wars.

Its not a coincidence. The Light is a tangible power. It is not a God. If you refuse to believe the Holy light is a non-theistic power, you are simply wrong according to current warcraft lore.

And? Similar ideas do happen in different media, you know.

Especially when the creators are profoundly and admittedly influenced by said different media.

[Fordragon]

Honestly? I don't know how anyone under 40 in America wouldn't be influenced by Star Wars.

Also: coughOrcscough

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Yeah, but Metzen specifically has noted on numerous occasions that he’s a huge Star Wars fan and it was a huge influence on his creative work.

[Fordragon]

That makes sense. He was born in '74, so he would have been about five when Star Wars first came out. It's probably the first movie he can remember at all.

[Cantus]

The cut and dry answer to "Why do they still use Judeo-Christian allegories?" is that they already used them to begin with and there's no reason to so radically change the religion as to retcon it out of any semblance of its former self at this point. As of Warcraft II it's not God, it's a (as aforementioned) ambient energy akin to Starwars' Force, and the Judeo-Christian angelic wings and religious fervor were carried over from its previous incarnation.

And if you want to ask, "Why keep the medieval christianity stuff?" Well what better way to show how crazy and overzealous people can get in any universe if they're caught up in something as potent as organized religion? The Crusades were a very poignant real life example of just what happens when we let religion take over every single aspect of our lives down to whether our neighbors can live, and the best way (if a bit generic) to capture that very visceral idea is to use similar themes in-game (i.e. the Scarlet Crusade.) As everyone's said, it was initially supposed to be based off God, but after they changed it it's directly stated to be something entirely different now, despite carried over themes to the contrary.

(Sidenote: This isn't an attack on you or your beliefs Ken, just a reminder of what history has shown when powerful positions are opened to something as fallible as man.)

[Drz]

Yeah, but Metzen specifically has noted on numerous occasions that he’s a huge Star Wars fan and it was a huge influence on his creative work.

Not to mention he's always sporting with Star Wars shirts... well Almost! :D Let's not forget that Marvel comics are a big part of things that influence him. Especially Walt Simmonson's Thor comics.

[Fordragon]

Simmonson's Thor comics are classic. Everyone else at the time was trying to figure out how to make their superhero hang out in New York, whereas Simmonson was just like "You know what? I'm gonna do the whole thing. Yeah, he's gonna cruise around in a longboat or a chariot pulled by a six-legged ram and cross rainbow bridges and fight trolls and frost giants."

[Rolandius]

And I'm not convinced that Blood Elves shouldn't be ethnically cleansed, but I don't go arguing with people about it. If anything, what the Holy Light is most comparable to is a sort of Dur Wille Zur Macht, not the constant, divine interventions of a deity.

Now you made me go check what that means. I think it is "der Wille zur Macht" it says.

At which point is it retconned "enough", then? :raisedbro



And? Similar ideas do happen in different media, you know.

When they stop referring to it and have things connected to it.

I know similar ideas happen in other media...like Dungeons & Dragons...

Its not a coincidence. The Light is a tangible power. It is not a God. If you refuse to believe the Holy light is a non-theistic power, you are simply wrong according to current warcraft lore.

I don't think the Light is just some "force" though. Some "force" wouldn't think to give paladins wings when using certain powers. Some "force" wouldn't pick the undead to be especially hurt by the powers. If you were to pick a diety from Warcraft's history, I think angels would connect with God the most. Also there is a such thing as corrupted angels in regards to the val'kyr. Also if the Light was just a "force" then why have a trial, for example with Tirion? Anyone whose powers are taken away and exiled by a trial could just think "No, I am right. I still believe" and connect to the Light. Something must have given Tirion his powers back after they were taken away. Once again I don't think a person can just manifest powers by themselves like paladins do if it has to do with the Light. Someone doing that would just be using the "holy" magic school and not the Light. Finally, yes Metzen and others were probably influenced by this, that, and the other. They were also influenced by Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, etc. Dungeons & Dragons stuff is even in the lore and people ignore it so why would something like Star Wars be evidence for something in Warcraft?

The cut and dry answer to "Why do they still use Judeo-Christian allegories?" is that they already used them to begin with and there's no reason to so radically change the religion as to retcon it out of any semblance of its former self at this point. As of Warcraft II it's not God, it's a (as aforementioned) ambient energy akin to Starwars' Force, and the Judeo-Christian angelic wings and religious fervor were carried over from its previous incarnation.

And if you want to ask, "Why keep the medieval christianity stuff?" Well what better way to show how crazy and overzealous people can get in any universe if they're caught up in something as potent as organized religion? The Crusades were a very poignant real life example of just what happens when we let religion take over every single aspect of our lives down to whether our neighbors can live, and the best way (if a bit generic) to capture that very visceral idea is to use similar themes in-game (i.e. the Scarlet Crusade.) As everyone's said, it was initially supposed to be based off God, but after they changed it it's directly stated to be something entirely different now, despite carried over themes to the contrary.

(Sidenote: This isn't an attack on you or your beliefs Ken, just a reminder of what history has shown when powerful positions are opened to something as fallible as man.)

So they are retconning only the name and keeping everything else? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck is what I am saying.

People can get just as crazy and overzealous in an atheist organization as you may know from history.

I am not sure who Ken is...

[Cantus]

So they are retconning only the name and keeping everything else? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck is what I am saying.

People can get just as crazy and overzealous in an atheist organization as you may know from history.

I am not sure who Ken is...

Ken = Kenzuki who is an avowed christian, and (from events long before you joined) I wanted to make sure he knew I was not faulting Christianity but rather mankind's interpretation of it.

As to your duck analogy...well that's the same argument that witch hunters used to use to identify witches (as famously parodied by Monty Python.) Looking, walking, and sounding like a duck does not mean it's a duck, only that it appears so from your specific viewpoint. Genetic testing could say it's a hybrid animal, an anomalous birth, or any other number of possibilities that refute your argument because you chose to look for only those things you believe are true.

The reality is that you can only say that possibilities cannot happen from previously established information. Metzen said "the Holy Light is not equal to Christianity." Therefore we can say without any shadow of a doubt that the Holy Light does not equal God. Is it similar in respect to the organized religion of Christianity, most certainly. Does it take notes and themes from Christian mythology, absolutely. Does that mean it is in fact Christianity, no, because we have already established that it was retconned from that religion to a new one that takes on a more Nirvana/Force esque quality.

And for the TLDR crowd, well simply put logic dictates that in the absence of direct unquestionable fact there is only the ability to disprove something as true.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

When they stop referring to it and have things connected to it.

They have nothing connected to it anymore. Also, they’ve stopped referring to it entirely with the exception of one sentence from the WCIII manual (that got imported to early wow) that says “others believe”, which is essentially to explain away a retcon to all the previous God references . The “others” who believe that are who now? There is nobody in lore who believes that anymore except these one sentence “others”. The clerics of Northshire did, but that was retconed.

I don't think the Light is just some "force" though.

Then you are wrong. It’s directly called a force and is specifically stated to not be a God or theistic. I don’t know how it can be more clear then when they flat out say it. Its not a neutral power if that is what’s tripping you up, it’s a “tangible force of good” as Metzen says.

Some "force" wouldn't think to give paladins wings when using certain powers. Some "force" wouldn't pick the undead to be especially hurt by the powers. If you were to pick a diety from Warcraft's history, I think angels would connect with God the most. Also there is a such thing as corrupted angels in regards to the val'kyr.

You can’t seem to separate traditional Judeo-Christian imagery from the religion itself. Angel wings do not automatically equal God, like demons don‘t equal Satan, like Titans don‘t equal Mt. Olympus, like Old Gods don’t equal C’thulu, etc.

Your “angelic imagery=God” is an incredibly flawed assumption, especially when a tangible power of good in a fictional universe could easily share the same imagery. It needn’t, and doesn’t, go beyond “that’s what good magic looks like”. Undead are created by dark magic, naturally the antithesis of the light. That’s why it hurts them in particular. Could you cut people off from “God” with a magic gas?

Also if the Light was just a "force" then why have a trial, for example with Tirion? Anyone whose powers are taken away and exiled by a trial could just think "No, I am right. I still believe" and connect to the Light.

And hey, that’s exactly what happened isn’t it? Tirion did just that. The organizations that have such trials, be they Church or Silver Hand or whatever, are organizations of men. They do not control the Holy Light, nor would they control God, both of which are higher powers. So either way, kind of an irrelevant point.

Someone doing that would just be using the "holy" magic school and not the Light.

The Light is Holy Magic. Divine magic is by definition magic accessed through faith.

Finally, yes Metzen and others were probably influenced by this, that, and the other. They were also influenced by Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, etc. Dungeons & Dragons stuff is even in the lore and people ignore it so why would something like Star Wars be evidence for something in Warcraft?

Its not evidence, its an analogy to try and show you what the Holy Light it. Iirc its one Metzen used himself when trying to explain the Holy Light in an interview, saying “its kinda like the Force”.

[SicilianNecktie]

I think that what Rol is trying to say is that all the magic in WoW comes from a single God, not specifically the Judeo-Christian God, Jehovah, just a single God, and no others. Hence the capitol 'G'. That's similar to what I'm theorizing in my chart (/beam with pride).

Oh, and on a side note, someone mentioned the crusades. I think they'd be justified after the Hebrew Diaspora, the capture and occupation of Sicily, taking almost all of Spain, sending various armies into France, and the countless corsairs in the Mediterranean trying to destroy any and all European Culture.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Except we know the sources of most magic, and they're not God. Unless you want to say God created everything so he's also the source of everything, which just means he created the sources that actually give the magic, not that he is directly supplying it.

[HalfElfDragon]

I think having a single uber-god would be rather lame. I think the Naaru are as sentient as the Light gets

[Tabarax]

Espically given how ineffective this god would be. you would think he would have roflstomped Sargeras by now. The biggest stretch i would want is have a titan who's pantheon includes the light.

[Rolandius]

Ken = Kenzuki who is an avowed christian, and (from events long before you joined) I wanted to make sure he knew I was not faulting Christianity but rather mankind's interpretation of it.

As to your duck analogy...well that's the same argument that witch hunters used to use to identify witches (as famously parodied by Monty Python.) Looking, walking, and sounding like a duck does not mean it's a duck, only that it appears so from your specific viewpoint. Genetic testing could say it's a hybrid animal, an anomalous birth, or any other number of possibilities that refute your argument because you chose to look for only those things you believe are true.

The reality is that you can only say that possibilities cannot happen from previously established information. Metzen said "the Holy Light is not equal to Christianity." Therefore we can say without any shadow of a doubt that the Holy Light does not equal God. Is it similar in respect to the organized religion of Christianity, most certainly. Does it take notes and themes from Christian mythology, absolutely. Does that mean it is in fact Christianity, no, because we have already established that it was retconned from that religion to a new one that takes on a more Nirvana/Force esque quality.

And for the TLDR crowd, well simply put logic dictates that in the absence of direct unquestionable fact there is only the ability to disprove something as true.

Oh okay short for Kenzuki.

So what it boils down to then is that God is the wrong term. That leaves us with "Unknown Single Entity That Sounds Like God Which People Worshipped Earlier In Warcraft But Is Now Only Referenced To" or "USETSLGWPWEIWBINORT" for short.

And hey, that’s exactly what happened isn’t it? Tirion did just that. The organizations that have such trials, be they Church or Silver Hand or whatever, are organizations of men. They do not control the Holy Light, nor would they control God, both of which are higher powers. So either way, kind of an irrelevant point.

Its not evidence, its an analogy to try and show you what the Holy Light it. Iirc its one Metzen used himself when trying to explain the Holy Light in an interview, saying “its kinda like the Force”.

Why does lore say that when a paladin is ex-communicated they lose their Light powers? (Post WC I by a lot of years.) Why did Tiron feel his powers leave him when they took it from him but then later got them back? (Post WC I by a lot of years.)

Sort of like the quotes saying "its kinda like canon" and "this D&D stuff is great for Warcraft"?

I think that what Rol is trying to say is that all the magic in WoW comes from a single God, not specifically the Judeo-Christian God, Jehovah, just a single God, and no others. Hence the capitol 'G'. That's similar to what I'm theorizing in my chart (/beam with pride).

Yeah. Magic that is "good" at least.

Except we know the sources of most magic, and they're not God. Unless you want to say God created everything so he's also the source of everything, which just means he created the sources that actually give the magic, not that he is directly supplying it.

Hence the quotes from Blizzard saying some believe a single entity created the universe.

Espically given how ineffective this god would be. you would think he would have roflstomped Sargeras by now. The biggest stretch i would want is have a titan who's pantheon includes the light.

I haven't seen other entities do much against Sargeras. The biggest show was the War of the Ancients which had Cenarius, Malorne (Apa'ro), etc. All the big names were "killed" too except Cenarius. Usually it is "humanoids" who are doing the fighting with the entities giving them powers only. I haven't seen the titans, Elune (Mu'sha), An'she, Aparo, the Earthmother, etc. do anything lately.

[Cantus]

Oh, and on a side note, someone mentioned the crusades. I think they'd be justified after the Hebrew Diaspora, the capture and occupation of Sicily, taking almost all of Spain, sending various armies into France, and the countless corsairs in the Mediterranean trying to destroy any and all European Culture.

You're fucking with me right? How does the Hebrew Diaspora or piracy on the Mediterranean have anything to do with the cross-roads of civilization and the fact that control of the Middle East means a hell of a lot of money and serious bragging rights? I mean, yes there was the "constant threat of Moorish invasion" from Spain, but the majority of the Crusades skipped by North Africa and just went straight for Jerusalem because of its central nature to Christianity and world trade.

Edit: Rolandius, the point we've all been trying to make is that you're looking at too narrow a vision of the Holy Light. It's been changed, there is no central diety, no real God or god to it in any sense, it's an all encompassing energy that pervades the whole of the universe like (as we keep saying) the Force. Yes there is a rhyme and reason to it, but it's not the same thing as a deity.

[Rolandius]

Edit: Rolandius, the point we've all been trying to make is that you're looking at too narrow a vision of the Holy Light. It's been changed, there is no central diety, no real God or god to it in any sense, it's an all encompassing energy that pervades the whole of the universe like (as we keep saying) the Force. Yes there is a rhyme and reason to it, but it's not the same thing as a deity.

Well I hope they give it some kind of name because "its kinda like the Force" isn't really helpful when you are making Warcraft lore distinct from other lore.

[Cantus]

Well I hope they give it some kind of name because "its kinda like the Force" isn't really helpful when you are making Warcraft lore distinct from other lore.

Actually, the Light is a distinct enough name because light is something seemingly natural to the universe and it has a natural dichotomy with darkness (the Shadow.) If you don't see the reason in that take the Naaru, who are beings of pure Light until they enter their death phase, at which point they're akin to the Void and the Shadow. That dichotomy, that both light and shadow can be part of a being's life cycle, is about as close to copying Lucas' Force as one can get.

[Fordragon]

Why does lore say that when a paladin is ex-communicated they lose their Light powers? (Post WC I by a lot of years.) Why did Tiron feel his powers leave him when they took it from him but then later got them back? (Post WC I by a lot of years.)

Because usually, when they get excommunicated, it's because they did something wrong. Either they consider excommunication their punishment and can't call the Light because they're crippled with regret, self-doubt, and other things that keep you from believing you're doing the right thing, or they are unrepentant and fall to evil, at which point the Light will not respond to them.

The clergy in Lordaeron believed at the time it was possible to strip people of their powers, but really what they were doing was psychological, not magical. They weren't taking their light, they were breaking their confidence.

Hence the quotes from Blizzard saying some believe a single entity created the universe.

Now you're being fucking obstinate. They're prefaced by wiggle-words, which means "this is not canon, we are using it to handwave away retcons or mistakes we previously made." When, in this sort of material, they preface a statement with "some believe" they become free to write ANYTHING THEY WANT and not have it have any bearing on the canon.

[Rolandius]

Actually, the Light is a distinct enough name because light is something seemingly natural to the universe and it has a natural dichotomy with darkness (the Shadow.) If you don't see the reason in that take the Naaru, who are beings of pure Light until they enter their death phase, at which point they're akin to the Void and the Shadow. That dichotomy, that both light and shadow can be part of a being's life cycle, is about as close to copying Lucas' Force as one can get.

Well I meant in the context of the discussion in which the Light has been said to be only the Church of the Holy Light's name for it, while others may call it something else like the Tauren.

Now you're being fucking obstinate. They're prefaced by wiggle-words, which means "this is not canon, we are using it to handwave away retcons or mistakes we previously made." When, in this sort of material, they preface a statement with "some believe" they become free to write ANYTHING THEY WANT and not have it have any bearing on the canon.

So if there are statements out there that say "some believe" in front of a deity, for instance Elune, then those deities are not really canon?

To Gurtogg Bloodboil:

Also earlier you said, "Almost all religions in the fantasy warcraft world are pretty much accurate. After all, if you pray to a god and they grant you power it is at least a prima facie confirmation that such a god actually exists and answers your prayers. I see no reason to think that the Tauren religion is the only one that is incorrect and their god is nothing but a sun." but that sounds the opposite to what you are saying now unless I am reading it wrong.

[Cantus]

Well I meant in the context of the discussion in which the Light has been said to be only the Church of the Holy Light's name for it, while others may call it something else like the Tauren.

So if there are statements out there that say "some believe" in front of a deity, for instance Elune, then those deities are not really canon?

No...really everyone pretty much calls it the Light. The speculation is that the Tauren will mistake worshipping a deity (Anshe) for the Light. This does not mean the Light is a deity, just that the Tauren are unaware that their faith in Anshe is a very run around version of accessing the Light. As Fordragon mentioned, merely having faith in the Light or a similar enough proxy allows you to access its powers, but it's your faith in a higher moral order than yourself that does this, not a Divine being just handing it to you as a reward for your beliefs. That is instead something more akin to the Night Elves' worship of Elune or a Shadow Hunter's pleas for help from a Loa.

As to belief in Elune, that's very much canon. Again, Metzen said out right that Elune is the only actual deity in Warcraft, everyone else is a demigod posing as something more.

[Rolandius]

No...really everyone pretty much calls it the Light. The speculation is that the Tauren will mistake worshipping a deity (Anshe) for the Light. This does not mean the Light is a deity, just that the Tauren are unaware that their faith in Anshe is a very run around version of accessing the Light. As Fordragon mentioned, merely having faith in the Light or a similar enough proxy allows you to access its powers, but it's your faith in a higher moral order than yourself that does this, not a Divine being just handing it to you as a reward for your beliefs. That is instead something more akin to the Night Elves' worship of Elune or a Shadow Hunter's pleas for help from a Loa.

As to belief in Elune, that's very much canon. Again, Metzen said out right that Elune is the only actual deity in Warcraft, everyone else is a demigod posing as something more.

So someone could mistakenly worship a frog but still connect to the Light because they think they could and/or have faith in a higher moral order?

I was just using Elune as an example if those words were in front of her name in a statement. Also the "Elune is the only actual deity in Warcraft, everyone else is a demigod posing as something more" is as old as the quote saying "some believe there is a single entity that created the universe" if you think about it.

[Fordragon]

So someone could mistakenly worship a frog but still connect to the Light because they think they could and/or have faith in a higher moral order?

If the system of belief they have set up around the frog has a moral code that gives people the sort of belief in goodness and faith in themselves that the Church propagates, yes. The Light is a non-theistic entity and doesn't care about religious orthodoxy, it cares about what is in your mind and your spirit. You CAN, basically, "trick" yourself or someone else in to using the Holy Light, after all (see, again: Blood Knights).

I was just using Elune as an example if those words were in front of her name in a statement. Also the "Elune is the only actual deity in Warcraft, everyone else is a demigod posing as something more" is as old as the quote saying "some believe there is a single entity that created the universe" if you think about it.

Except that one is a statement prefaced with wiggle-words, and one is the primary writer for WarCraft making an out-of-universe statement. PLEASE tell me you see the difference.

[Omacron]

Not to mention the "Elune is the only diety in Warcraft" quote came from the Warcraft Encyclopedia, which was created as a pre-release material for TBC. Hardly outdated.

[SicilianNecktie]

You're fucking with me right? How does the Hebrew Diaspora or piracy on the Mediterranean have anything to do with the cross-roads of civilization and the fact that control of the Middle East means a hell of a lot of money and serious bragging rights? I mean, yes there was the "constant threat of Moorish invasion" from Spain, but the majority of the Crusades skipped by North Africa and just went straight for Jerusalem because of its central nature to Christianity and world trade.


They all point to the fact that the leaders of the Arabic world, at the time, were trying to wipe out any and all culture that was not distinctly Arabic. Why would the Europeans stand by and be attacked by corsairs and raiders pillaging in the name of Allah? While, yeah, Jerusalem was hte birthplace of Christianity, Religion was not the only reason for the Crusades, merely a catalyst.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Why does lore say that when a paladin is ex-communicated they lose their Light powers? (Post WC I by a lot of years.) Why did Tiron feel his powers leave him when they took it from him but then later got them back? (Post WC I by a lot of years.)

And this has anything at all to do with God, how? Does Blood and Honor say God took Tirion’s powers? Absolutely not. See Fordragon’s post for the rest.

Well I hope they give it some kind of name because "its kinda like the Force" isn't really helpful when you are making Warcraft lore distinct from other lore.

Oh, so the better way to make Warcraft lore distinct is to just go the Christian God route? Yeah, really distinct. The whole reason they got rid of “god” is too make it more distinct.

It has a name already. It is the Holy Light. It is a Force. It is not a god.

I haven't seen the titans, Elune (Mu'sha), An'she, Aparo, the Earthmother, etc. do anything lately.

You’ve heard about them a lot more recently and prevalently than you’ve heard about “God”, I’ll tell you that much.

Well I meant in the context of the discussion in which the Light has been said to be only the Church of the Holy Light's name for it, while others may call it something else like the Tauren.

It is not confirmed that Tauren are using the Holy Light. They may be using the power of their god, An’she. We really have no idea and everything regarding Tauren paladins is speculatory at this point. Hell they could go the, “their friends the Blood Elves taught them” route akin to what the rumored Dwarf Shaman explanation is. You cannot cite information that doesn’t exist yet as evidence of anything.

Also earlier you said, "Almost all religions in the fantasy warcraft world are pretty much accurate. After all, if you pray to a god and they grant you power it is at least a prima facie confirmation that such a god actually exists and answers your prayers. I see no reason to think that the Tauren religion is the only one that is incorrect and their god is nothing but a sun." but that sounds the opposite to what you are saying now unless I am reading it wrong.

Who is praying to this God and getting powers? Nobody you can reference. The best you can do is a hand-wave that says “some believe”, which doesn’t mean anything. If they revive the concept of God, and have Christians become a class and they start using God’s power to heal their raid group, then that is some persuasive evidence that God exists. Its pretty obviously that is not the case.

[HalfElfDragon]

No...really everyone pretty much calls it the Light. The speculation is that the Tauren will mistake worshipping a deity (Anshe) for the Light.

Personally, I don't think there's any mistaking going on.

[Cantus]

They all point to the fact that the leaders of the Arabic world, at the time, were trying to wipe out any and all culture that was not distinctly Arabic. Why would the Europeans stand by and be attacked by corsairs and raiders pillaging in the name of Allah? While, yeah, Jerusalem was hte birthplace of Christianity, Religion was not the only reason for the Crusades, merely a catalyst.
What the hell are kids being taught these days? Arabic =/= muslim, there were and are Arab Christians and Jews in the Middle East that date back long before Muhammad got his ass smacked by a midwife in Mecca. The corsairs were more likely descendants from Phoenician settlers or other defunct Mediterranean nations than Muslims, who at that point were more likely with the Moors than with some ragtag pirate crew swilling grog and eating salt pork.

And my whole point was the Middle-East was a trade cross-roads, which means the person/people who control it have the power to tax and manipulate the entire European market to absurd effect. The Crusades were about using religious fervor to make money, not some bullshit Holy War as the very indoctrinated peasants dragged down there were led to believe. If it were truly about Holy War than the Christians wouldn't have stopped at Jerusalem, but instead conquered the rest of the ancient world even while their own economy collapsed from the strain.

Personally, I don't think there's any mistaking going on.
Blind faith can make you attribute things to the wrong source all the time, all because you see what you want to see. If you believe the Sun is a demigod and that if you pray to it you will be granted extraordinary powers, receiving some sort of power will indelibly connect the two in your mind. The power is your faith, not the unseen and unknown creature Anshe, but because you've been taught to believe he exists and is the cause for it you attribute that power to his blessing.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

The power is your faith, not the unseen and unknown creature Anshe, but because you've been taught to believe he exists and is the cause for it you attribute that power to his blessing.

Unless the power actually is An'she, which is extremely likely and preferable imo to the Tauren being too stupid to know what the power they're praying to is.

[Rolandius]

Unless the power actually is An'she, which is extremely likely and preferable imo to the Tauren being too stupid to know what the power they're praying to is.

Remember it is the Light not a deity. :smirk:

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

It isn't anything yet. An'she could have nothing to do with the Holy Light and could be a god like Elune. That's why I said the Tauren would be stupid if they thought the Light was a diety, because its not.

[Rowan Seven]

Not to mention the "Elune is the only diety in Warcraft" quote came from the Warcraft Encyclopedia, which was created as a pre-release material for TBC. Hardly outdated.

The "Elune is the only deity in Warcraft" quote is actually from the first edition of the Warcraft RPG, which IS seriously outdated and the quote itself is contradicted by the newer Warcraft Encyclopedia which states that Elune is "one of Azeroth's few full deities." The "one of..." implies that there are more.

[Cantus]

The "Elune is the only deity in Warcraft" quote is actually from the first edition of the Warcraft RPG, which IS seriously outdated and the quote itself is contradicted by the newer Warcraft Encyclopedia which states that Elune is "one of Azeroth's few full deities." The "one of..." implies that there are more.

Haha, well now, didn't hear they changed that in the newest edition...good to know.

[SicilianNecktie]

What the hell are kids being taught these days? Arabic =/= muslim, there were and are Arab Christians and Jews in the Middle East that date back long before Muhammad got his ass smacked by a midwife in Mecca. The corsairs were more likely descendants from Phoenician settlers or other defunct Mediterranean nations than Muslims, who at that point were more likely with the Moors than with some ragtag pirate crew swilling grog and eating salt pork.

And my whole point was the Middle-East was a trade cross-roads, which means the person/people who control it have the power to tax and manipulate the entire European market to absurd effect. The Crusades were about using religious fervor to make money, not some bullshit Holy War as the very indoctrinated peasants dragged down there were led to believe. If it were truly about Holy War than the Christians wouldn't have stopped at Jerusalem, but instead conquered the rest of the ancient world even while their own economy collapsed from the strain.

First off, let me correct myself; I said Arabic because the Muslim Empire was in control of ALL Arabs, occupying any that weren't Muslim. And as for all the Muslims being in North Africa with Moors, I'm nearly positive that is not true. They had a giant empire, bigger than the earlier Persian one, stetching from tradeposts in Indonesia to the Cap of Gibraltar. I'm positive the entire Muslim army was not just hanging with the Moors at that time. And my point is that while the Crusades had some Religious influence behind them, they were also the most strategic thing to do at the time. It's either stand by and let your mindless farmers be killed doing nothing, or have the mindless farmers die as a meat shield for trained knights to do the work.

[Rolandius]

It isn't anything yet. An'she could have nothing to do with the Holy Light and could be a god like Elune. That's why I said the Tauren would be stupid if they thought the Light was a diety, because its not.

Okay so on one hand there are people telling me it has a name already and it is called the Light, while on the other hand there are people telling me it isn't anything...

[Fordragon]

We don't know the lore behind Tauren Paladins. They could be like Night Elf and Troll Priests and get their power from somewhere else, and be different in lore, but be identical to existing Paladins for gameplay reasons.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Okay so on one hand there are people telling me it has a name already and it is called the Light, while on the other hand there are people telling me it isn't anything...

I can’t speak for what other people are telling you. Everybody has wacky theories. I can tell you what the lore is, and that is that the Light is an actual an existing nontheistic force.

As Fordragon said regarding the Tauren, there is no lore about it yet. All we know is that we’ll be getting some kind of Tauren paladin. You, me, and everyone else will have to wait and see how that plays out, but using it now as an example of anything is folly.

[SicilianNecktie]

What we know:
The Light, which is worshipped by (most)humans and dwarves, is a non-theistic force that is holy. It can appeal to anyone, and it's power is based on the person's spirit and faith, not on the person's strength, political influnce, or wealth.

What we do not know:
Where are taurens getting their power from? They will be using the same spells as normal in-game paladins, yet we know that they do not worship The Light, but recent lore suggests they will worship a[n unnamed] diety they call An'she, who is representative of the Sun.

What I am speculating:
Because the tauren and original paladins are recieving the same types of spells, I believe that they are worshipping the same force of light, but just call it a different name.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

What I am speculating:
Because the tauren and original paladins are recieving the same types of spells, I believe that they are worshipping the same force of light, but just call it a different name.

I can’t say I support that theory, but again its too early to say anything for sure. There’s no telling what Blizz will do.

[Rolandius]

What we know:
The Light, which is worshipped by (most)humans and dwarves, is a non-theistic force that is holy. It can appeal to anyone, and it's power is based on the person's spirit and faith, not on the person's strength, political influnce, or wealth.

There are high elves too. I found this quote in the RPG.

"Anyone can follow the path of the Holy Light, and anyone who follows the Holy Light is welcomed by the Church. Most of its members are human, but the Church does not discriminate. High elves and Ironforge dwarves have long been members; other races are welcome, though members of the Horde have never shown interest in the Three Virtues."

[Fordragon]

The majority of the Alliance practices it and belongs to the Church of the Holy Light.. The Church has 800,000 members in the Alliance Player's Guide, which is right around the start of WoW. So depending on how many Night Elves, Gnomes, Dwarves who don't follow the Light, and Draenei are around (and hell, some Draenei might join the Church proper), we can make an estimate that the Alliance has somewhere in the neighborhood of one million total citizens, with the Horde having maybe somewhat less.

Yeah, we're dealing with tiny armies here.

[Rolandius]

I was just wondering if Blizzard was going to say the tauren now believe in the Three Virtues or use another path to making them paladins.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

As were we all.

[Fordragon]

I was just wondering if Blizzard was going to say the tauren now believe in the Three Virtues or use another path to making them paladins.

That would be quite a surprise, as they're the basic constructs of the Church of the Holy Light, not some idea that the Light itself beams in to your head. You'd need to have a period of peace where humans and other Church-goers would have a chance to disseminate their ideas to the Horde races.

"Respect, tenacity and compassion" are ideas that I think a lot of Tauren would be able to get behind, but apparently reaching a true understanding of what they mean takes a great deal of study, discussion and meditation (which is one of the more Buddhist-like parts of the Church's beliefs). If there were Tauren who had taken to it in the brief period of peace, they likely wouldn't feel qualified to teach others yet.

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Eh, Tauren learned and mastered Druidism in no time. They could have learned the ways of the Light in a tradition way, but my Spidey-sense tells me Blizz is going to have a much more convoluted explanation.

[Rolandius]

Okay, so is each school of magic a potential force? Holy = The Light, Shadow = Darkness, Nature = Elune, etc?

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

No. Elune is a God. Her power is also Holy/Divine.

Spells schools as depicted by the game itself are mostly mechanics and not indicative of their actual origins.

[Rolandius]

No. Elune is a God. Her power is also Holy/Divine.

Spells schools as depicted by the game itself are mostly mechanics and not indicative of their actual origins.

I thought Holy and Nature were branches of Divine?

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Nature magic and divine magic are different. The recent comic even confirmed the distinctions, specifically mentioning them as two different schools.

[Havard]

Hi all, new poster here.

In no way do I hold the belief that the Light = Judeo-Christian God, however I do find it amusing that the song "Graveyard" (the one played when running back to your corpse) has the simple lyrics:

Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Kýrie.

Which translates to:

(Latin) Lamb of God, Lamb of God, Lamb of God, (Greek) O Lord.

Of course it's not evidence of anything, however it is an example of how Judeo-Christian inconography, themes and musical influences permeate a non-Judeo-Christian subject.

[Cantus]

Hi all, new poster here.

In no way do I hold the belief that the Light = Judeo-Christian God, however I do find it amusing that the song "Graveyard" (the one played when running back to your corpse) has the simple lyrics:

Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Kýrie.

Which translates to:

(Latin) Lamb of God, Lamb of God, Lamb of God, (Greek) O Lord.

Of course it's not evidence of anything, however it is an example of how Judeo-Christian inconography, themes and musical influences permeate a non-Judeo-Christian subject. As'asalam alaikum (sorry, had to) but yeah, welcome to the forums. I did notice they continued the latin word theme throughout the WoW soundtracks (just look at the cinematic's voice work) but it's appropriate considering the original basis of the Holy Light before they changed it to a less controversial (if still similar) religion.

[Havard]

Thank you Cantus!

[Omacron]

Well, considering Latin was the "lingua Franca" of the medieval period, I don't think it's out of place to have it even in a secular capacity, just like Lordaeronians who have names like "Aleksei Barov" (Slavic) and "Uther", which would be pre-Roman British, probably Saxon in origin.

[Rolandius]

As'asalam alaikum (sorry, had to) but yeah, welcome to the forums. I did notice they continued the latin word theme throughout the WoW soundtracks (just look at the cinematic's voice work) but it's appropriate considering the original basis of the Holy Light before they changed it to a less controversial (if still similar) religion.

Anyone know what the whole thing about "records have been lost" and some people in the Church of Light are differing with others on beliefs? If there is only "the Light" what is this differing thoughts all about and "records have been lost" so they don't know what the original manuscripts said?

[cenkiss]

Well, considering Latin was the "lingua Franca" of the medieval period, I don't think it's out of place to have it even in a secular capacity, just like Lordaeronians who have names like "Aleksei Barov" (Slavic) and "Uther", which would be pre-Roman British, probably Saxon in origin.

Latin was lingua-franca only in europe.

[Meta]

Latin was lingua-franca only in europe.

The human nations in the Warcraft universe are clearly analogue to Medieval Europe. Knights, Castles, Churches, Bishops, fully armored Footmen, Crusaders and even the Light (pre WC3). The recent portrayal of Gilneas is also clearly based on European culture (to me it resembles Victorian England), not to mention the comparison between Worgens and Werewolves, which are also legends of European origin.

So, featuring things in Latin isn't such a big stretch. Cliché, yeah - it´s extremely overused, but not exactly far-fetched.

[Aranil]

The human nations in the Warcraft universe are clearly analogue to Medieval Europe. Knights, Castles, Churches, Bishops, fully armored Footmen, Crusaders and even the Light (pre WC3). The recent portrayal of Gilneas is also clearly based on European culture (to me it resembles Victorian England), not to mention the comparison between Worgens and Werewolves, which are also legends of European origin.

So, featuring things in Latin isn't such a big stretch. Cliché, yeah - it´s extremely overused, but not exactly far-fetched.

I think that Humans in Warcraft are no longer bound to the 'medieval' setting, just look, stormwind harbor is fully protected by cannons, there are steam tanks on the docks, they have steamships on their navy, the footmen (in icecrown for example) carry guns and so on...

[Omacron]

Yeah, as a whole the Warcraft setting has actually progressed out of the medieval era and into the industrial one, with a technology level that's roughly late 1800s up to WWI.

[Fordragon]

Anyone know what the whole thing about "records have been lost" and some people in the Church of Light are differing with others on beliefs? If there is only "the Light" what is this differing thoughts all about and "records have been lost" so they don't know what the original manuscripts said?

Well, the split on that is that some of their most significant books were lost when the Scourge overran Lordaeron. Some Priests believe that is a sign that people should meditate on the topics that were in those books and write new tomes that will offer a fresh perspective on those issues, while others believe that the old books' combination of historical importance and traditional place in the church means that they deserve as close an exact recreation as their combined memories can provide.

It's reflected in the three Bishops who are right beneath Benedictus. One guy is a younger, progressive Priest who wants to reach out to non-Light practicing races (I imagine he's probably gotten some Draenei to join, and he was a big reason Gnomes have priests). There's an older, more traditional one who believes the Church should focus on protecting the people who are currently in it. And there's one who believes the church needs to recreate its library.

Remember that the Church of the Holy Light, while non-theistic, is a very introspective, meditative faith and the writings of its greatest thinkers are considered treasures that can help people understand its teachings.

[cenkiss]

Eh, Tauren learned and mastered Druidism in no time. They could have learned the ways of the Light in a tradition way, but my Spidey-sense tells me Blizz is going to have a much more convoluted explanation.

Here is what i think.I think holy light and Anshe are the same thing.But Tauren named it differently than the others.Just like elune and musha,eonar and earthmother are the same thing but named differently by the Tauren.Tauren paladins will be infact paladins not sun druids.

[Wulfang]

Here is what i think.I think holy light and Anshe are the same thing.But Tauren named it differently than the others.Just like elune and musha,eonar and earthmother are the same thing but named differently by the Tauren.

How about no.

[cenkiss]

How about no.

Why do we have Tauren Paladins then?

[Wulfang]

Why do we have Tauren Paladins then?

That's not what I said no to.

[Stormcrusher]

Actually Azeroth's connection between the Light and Anshe might be closer than what we previously realized.

In the novels and other lore sources, whenever a Paladin calls upon a large among of Light power, the Light will actually come out of the sky down upon them.

Many human churches actually had windows in the ceiling so Light would enter the church.

One example could be this passage from Tides of Darkness:


"Uther!' Lothar shouted, and the Paladin strode forward. He lowered his sword indicating the orcs, and that was enough the Paladin nodded, beckoning the other members of the Silver Hand to follow him as he lowered his helm and raised his warhammer.

"By the Holy Light!' Uther shouted, a glow springing up around him and his weapon. "We shall not suffer such beats to live!' And he dove into the fray, his hammer slamming down upon the nearest orc's head and shattering its skull.

The sky here was always thick with clouds and soot, casting heavy shadows and blood-tinged light upon everything. But not now. the clouds parted and a beam of pure sunlight lanced down, limning Uther as he waded into the assmbled Horde. The Paladin became a figure of pure light, awesome and terrifying, his every blow crushing orcs warriors left and right.

The other Paladins joined him, his light suffusing them as well. The Silver Hand had expanded in the months since the war had begun, and now numbered twelve under Uther's command and not counting Turalyon. those twelve waded into the cambt, their hammers and axes and swords glowing with their faith, and the rest of the Alliance soldiers pulled back to give them space.

The orcs turned and faced their new foes. It was a brutal battle, savages versus zealots, shining mail against tatoos and piercings. The orcs were strong, tough, and crazed enough to not notice pain. But the Paladins were filled with righteous anger and the power of their faith, and their holy auras caused more than one orc to turn away when attacking. With this advantage the Paladins ringed the savage orcs, cutting down one and another until the last lay dead at their feet.


Another could be the ritual to turn a knight into a Paladin as shown in the Arthas novel. This is in chapter 5 of the novel. A quick summary.

Overview of the ritual
It generally would take place in a church. The Archbishop would read from a book the following words.
"In the Light, we gather to empower our brother. In its grace, he will be made anew. In its power, he shall educate the masses. In its strength, he shall combat the shadow. And in its wisdom, he shall lead his brethren to the eternal rewards of paradise."
At this point the Archbishop asks the clerics to bestow their blessing on the Paladin. The head cleric comes and rubs a holy oil on their brow. And says, "By the grace of the Light, may your brethren be healed."
Then the Archbishop asks for the Paladins to bless him/her. "Knights of the Silver Hand, if you deem this man worthy, place your blessings upon him."
At this point, the top ranking Paladins will give him the following gifts. The first their hammer. Next they present them with their ceremonial shoulder plates. Then the head Paladin says "By the strength of the Light, may your enemies be undone."
The Archbishop then says, "Arise and be recognized."
"Do you, Paladin's name, vow to uphold the honor and codes of the Order of the Silver Hand?"
Paladin says "I do"
"Do you vow to walk in the grace of the Light and spread its wisdom to your fellow man?"
Paladin says "I do"
"Do you vow to vanquish evil wherever it be found, and protect the innocent with your very life?
Paladin says "By my blood and honor, I do."
Archbishop then addresses the clerics and paladins. "Brothers and sisters--you who have gathered here to bear witness--raise your hands and let the Light illuminate this man."
At this point all the Paladins and clerics rase their hands with now glow and point them at the Paladin being ordained.
Sunlight then streams through the window in the ceiling onto the Paladin. Growing stronger with each moment. At this moment they reach for their Hammer. Upon grabbing it, the Archbishop says, "Arise, Paladin's name, paladin defender of Kingdom. Welcome to the Order of the Silver Hand."


It almost appears that the moment of them gaining Paladin powers is when the Light from above, possibly the Sun infuses them.

[Ashendant]

my theory is that zim'abwa, anshee and the light are the one and the same,
like the force is from those tine cells, and the chaos comes from chaos emeralds, the light comes from the stars, not as a source but more like a valve.

i found this awesome explination on one of the sonic(archie comics) forums, that the chaos emeralds transmit infinite energy but they max capacity they can transmit energy like a tube it can only carry a amount of water a some time, the resource might be infinite but not recipient to carry it, so the more tubes you have the better.

use this theory to explain the sources of the Force/Chaos/Light trough the tubes cell things/Chaos emeralds/stars and the naaru.

And according to the blizz devs, anshee and the light is the same under the lens of different societies.

[cenkiss]

my theory is that zim'abwa, anshee and the light are the one and the same,
like the force is from those tine cells, and the chaos comes from chaos emeralds, the light comes from the stars, not as a source but more like a valve.

i found this awesome explination on one of the sonic(archie comics) forums, that the chaos emeralds transmit infinite energy but they max capacity they can transmit energy like a tube it can only carry a amount of water a some time, the resource might be infinite but not recipient to carry it, so the more tubes you have the better.

use this theory to explain the sources of the Force/Chaos/Light trough the tubes cell things/Chaos emeralds/stars and the naaru.

And according to the blizz devs, anshee and the light is the same under the lens of different societies.

Who is zimabwa?And where did blizz developers confirmed that?

[ARM3481]

Who is zimabwa?And where did blizz developers confirmed that?

Zim'Abwa is one of three "forgotten" gods of the Drakkari. The Zandalar agents in Zul'drak are based at the altar of Zim'Torga, another such god. They seem keen on preventing the three forgotten gods from suffering the same fate as the animal ones should the Drakkari decide to go after their power as well. Unlike the animal gods they don't seem to have any totem representation, and are simply embodied by identical trollish statues.

Not much is explained about them yet beyond the fact that they've been largely overlooked by the Drakkari prophets while they murder and drain the powers of the primal animal gods. Zim'Torga is called the "Mother of Prosperity", Zim'Rhuk is called "The Wise One", and Zim'Abwa's status isn't directly described (though his reaction to receiving tribute with a vicious grin and then the completion text suggesting he really, really wants more tribute could hint that he's some sort of war or death god, or at least a somewhat less inherently benign deity who hungers more fervently for worship than the other two, who each react either suspiciously or with regret to the player having slaughtered their wayward Drakkari followers in order to claim the offerings.)

Still, we don't really know anything of substance about them, so attributing something as large and important as the Light to one of them is extremely premature (not to mention Zim'Abwa comes across as the least likely one anyway). It's one hell of a leap to suggest that the Light is embodied by one of three troll deities whose sole function thus far has been to grant a temporary and repeatable buff for turning in stacks of zone-wide drops.

The fact that they come across as more abstract in purpose could mean that they're either part of some overarching troll pantheon from before the tribes separated from the Zandalari, or maybe the primal gods all started out as bodiless, faceless deities and gradually became more manifest and identifiable as totem animals through increasing worship while the likes of Zim'Torga and co. remained distant and less pronounced, and thus didn't achieve the same physical and spiritual presence among the more warlike tribes of Drakkari, Amani and Gurubashi. Considering how culturally violent and expansionist non-Zandalar trolls tend to be, it's hardly surprising that beast gods who can grant powerful killing magics would be more popular among them than deities who embody abstract concepts that don't necessarily yield immediate rewards of power and dominance to followers.

Still, it's all guesswork at this point. Nothing concrete exists yet to link those three particular Drakkari gods to anything bigger than their basic description as deiites who've been mostly forgotten by their followers.

[Ashendant]

Zim'Abwa is one of three "forgotten" gods of the Drakkari. The Zandalar agents in Zul'drak are based at the altar of Zim'Torga, another such god. They seem keen on preventing the three forgotten gods from suffering the same fate as the animal ones should the Drakkari decide to go after their power as well. Unlike the animal gods they don't seem to have any totem representation, and are simply embodied by identical trollish statues.

Not much is explained about them yet beyond the fact that they've been largely overlooked by the Drakkari prophets while they murder and drain the powers of the primal animal gods. Zim'Torga is called the "Mother of Prosperity", Zim'Rhuk is called "The Wise One", and Zim'Abwa's status isn't directly described (though his reaction to receiving tribute with a vicious grin and then the completion text suggesting he really, really wants more tribute could hint that he's some sort of war or death god, or at least a somewhat less inherently benign deity who hungers more fervently for worship than the other two, who each react either suspiciously or with regret to the player having slaughtered their wayward Drakkari followers in order to claim the offerings.)

Still, we don't really know anything of substance about them, so attributing something as large and important as the Light to one of them is extremely premature (not to mention Zim'Abwa comes across as the least likely one anyway). It's one hell of a leap to suggest that the Light is embodied by one of three troll deities whose sole function thus far has been to grant a temporary and repeatable buff for turning in stacks of zone-wide drops.

The fact that they come across as more abstract in purpose could mean that they're either part of some overarching troll pantheon from before the tribes separated from the Zandalari, or maybe the primal gods all started out as bodiless, faceless deities and gradually became more manifest and identifiable as totem animals through increasing worship while the likes of Zim'Torga and co. remained distant and less pronounced, and thus didn't achieve the same physical and spiritual presence among the more warlike tribes of Drakkari, Amani and Gurubashi. Considering how culturally violent and expansionist non-Zandalar trolls tend to be, it's hardly surprising that beast gods who can grant powerful killing magics would be more popular among them than deities who embody abstract concepts that don't necessarily yield immediate rewards of power and dominance to followers.

Still, it's all guesswork at this point. Nothing concrete exists yet to link those three particular Drakkari gods to anything bigger than their basic description as deiites who've been mostly forgotten by their followers.

Hence it being a theory really, and it's still pretty much a stretch i know, but the basis of zim'abwa being the light is the fact that he has a stony visage, and the that elune is described as the same zim'torga, passive and female, and about zim'abwa i think he's just a attention whore it doesn't really make you evil or war-like, in my opinion, zim'rhuk would be more evil because, he's constantly threatening the player and trying to left in peace.

Also i posted this theory when blizzard devs started hinting as same gods could be seen under different cultural lens like elune, being mu'sha and an'she and the light.

And they didn't outright say it to us but they heavily hinted it with comparing elune to mu'sha

[Gurtogg_Bloodboil]

Also i posted this theory when blizzard devs started hinting as same gods could be seen under different cultural lens like elune, being mu'sha and an'she and the light.

And they didn't outright say it to us but they heavily hinted it with comparing elune to mu'sha

You’re reading way to much into that. Mu’sha and Elune are the same entity by different names. Both goddesses. Its like the difference between Mars and Ares. However, “the Light” is specifically stated to not be a deity while An’she is.

[Ashendant]

You’re reading way to much into that. Mu’sha and Elune are the same entity by different names. Both goddesses. Its like the difference between Mars and Ares. However, “the Light” is specifically stated to not be a deity while An’she is.

Like i said it's a theory of a interpretation, and while elune it's said to be a deity, we don't see her doing nothing except support priests and druids with spells much like the light, so some might consider it a deity so may consider it a philosophy, and in my own weird way of thinking, the force(Elune, Light) will obey on how it's believed to be(Faith), this of course it's just a random theory.

[Rolandius]

You’re reading way to much into that. Mu’sha and Elune are the same entity by different names. Both goddesses. Its like the difference between Mars and Ares. However, “the Light” is specifically stated to not be a deity while An’she is.

In the Hercules/Xena universe, Mars and Ares are two different people due to two different cultures but with the same "job". :)

[Ashendant]

In the Hercules/Xena universe, Mars and Ares are two different people due to two different cultures but with the same "job". :)

I think you mistook that with Roman and Greek mythology.

[Rolandius]

I think you mistook that with Roman and Greek mythology.

It is Roman and Greek mythology...

[Omacron]

It is Roman and Greek mythology...

No, it's a TV show. A charming TV show with all the kitsch that Sam Raimi can provide, but a TV show nonetheless and not a good point of reference for real world mythology.

[Rolandius]

No, it's a TV show. A charming TV show with all the kitsch that Sam Raimi can provide, but a TV show nonetheless and not a good point of reference for real world mythology.

Okay, but Star Wars and Warcraft are real...

[Wulfang]

*TROLL ALERT*

[cenkiss]

I think anshe and holy light are the same thing.They are just named differently by different cultures.Like how two different tribes name the same mountain differently.

[Sift]

Could earthmother be Ysera then elene is musha and anshe....... is anshe

[Omacron]

Could earthmother be Ysera then elene is musha and anshe....... is anshe

Elune and Ysera have been confirmed time and time again to be separate entities. Elune is Cenarius' birthmother, Ysera was Malorne's primary fuckbuddy (his time with Elune was just a one night stand) and Ysera took Cenarius as his ADOPTIVE mother.


Plus, Elune doesn't really have much to do with the "earth". She's all about dreams. The Earthmother never had anything to do with dreams.

[Rolandius]

Elune and Ysera have been confirmed time and time again to be separate entities. Elune is Cenarius' birthmother, Ysera was Malorne's primary fuckbuddy (his time with Elune was just a one night stand) and Ysera took Cenarius as his ADOPTIVE mother.

Plus, Elune doesn't really have much to do with the "earth". She's all about dreams. The Earthmother never had anything to do with dreams.

I thought Malorne spent most of his time with Elune? If it was Ysera, where are their children?

[Omacron]

I thought Malorne spent most of his time with Elune? If it was Ysera, where are their children?

He used protection. Obviously, that means he was a paladin.


Or it could be that, because Ysera is a dragon and dragons lay eggs, she couldn't be impregnated by a placental mammal.

[tufy]

You know, thinking about it, dragons sure have a lot of mates from other species...

[Exxile87]

You know, thinking about it, dragons sure have a lot of mates from other species...

They're the biggest fetish on Azeroth.


As far as Anshe/the holy Light having a connection, I can't speak much to that. I have my theories, but I also have some *clears throat* other incomplete information. It's interesting, but I'm gonna keep it to myself until more becomes available.

[Rolandius]

He used protection. Obviously, that means he was a paladin.

Or it could be that, because Ysera is a dragon and dragons lay eggs, she couldn't be impregnated by a placental mammal.

But Theradras and a keeper of the grove had centaur.

[AndyJP]

Maybe they transform into elves first, and then they do it "elf style". I assume it involves the ears.

If Blizzard just wanted to explain it quick and easy they could just say that the Tauren were impressed with the honor and power of the Argent Crusade and many went to train under them. They could use a lame explanation like this for each of the new classes. This will most likely be the case for some, but it would be nice if they surprised us with different starting quests for the new classes to explain them. They call me a dreamer.

[Schro]

But Theradras and a keeper of the grove had centaur.

Could it be because they both repersent nature and are closer to deities then dragons are? Thats if you believe elementals are close to the old gods, and believe the old gods are actual gods....

Then again the idea of someone getting it on with a pile of rocks sends shivers done my spine....

Also could one say keepers are more biologically similar to dragons then elementals? I mean in the regards the dragons are empowered lizards. While keepers seem to be born from magic completely.

Then again we dont extactly know how the titans created the dragon aspects from Galkarond yet....so no idea...

As for dragons being kinky well Kalec had sexual relations with a water feature.....