Illidan Teleporting to Outland

[Timolas]

In the final cutscene of the TFT Nelf Campaign Illidan creates a portal to Outland with ease and steps through.

So he can do that at random - make portals between the worlds. :raisedbro To get to him we can open the Dark Portal, but he can randomly teleport about... how and ya.

[Yuber8900]

Skull of Gul'dan power.

[ScytheRexx]

Illidan probably had both knowledge he gained from his time working with Azshara during the War of the Ancients, since he helped a lot with the "Zin'Ashari Portal Mark2", but also gained extreme knowledge in portal creation when he merged with the Skull of Gul'dan, the orc that helped stabilize the rift created by Medivh. Lastly, at the time he was making these portals, he was working for Kil'jaeden, who possibly gave him some tips of his own.

Thus, using his own knowledge he gained of portal creation, and the power given to him by the Skull of Guldan, he most likely learned how to create quick "one-shot" rifts that allowed him to travel to Outland. Whether he can make a "SUSTAINED" rift, like the Dark Portal or the Dalaran Rift, is another matter, and most likely not possible without the Book of Medivh and the knowledge the Guardians had of sustained rifts.

LESSER Demons in the past have always been able to enter Azeroth without the need of a sustained rift. This is the whole reason the Guardians were created, to stop the demons that were able to squeeze through the natural barriers of the world, thanks to sheer force of will, or summoning from misguided sources like Warlocks.

[Kenzuki]

Illidan was only using a Gate spell or someother minor teleportation. His portals were no where near the epicness of the Dark Portal, which only Medivh knew who to create. Which is why you need the book of Medivh to be able to open one like that. The only reason I think Illidan had the power to close Ner'zhul's portals is because of the knowledge he gained from Gul'dan. But in all honesty, Khadgar is a much more articulate spellcaster than Illidan was, despite being much much younger.

[Vicious]

In terms of raw power, Illidan was better probably.

Also LOL at Kenzuki´s rank.

[Timolas]

Why is that?
Anyway, ScytheRexx made a nice summary which pretty much clears that up for me.

Anyway, if Khadgar was a superior spellcaster to Illidan I'd have loved to see him shift back into Azeroth just like that. Pity he couldnt... got trapped there didnt he.

[Kenzuki]

In terms of levels Illidan is stronger, in terms of spellcasting levels Khadgar is superior because unlike Illidan he is a full spellcaster AND was trained by Medivh the most powerful spellcaster Azeroth had. And as for why he didn't just poof back to Azeroth, ever heard of the word plotdevice?

[Timolas]

Yeah, plot device... but thats not the lore reason is it.
There obviously a lore reason he didn't, plot device or no. Thats not an excuse. He can't or he would have quite obviously.

[GreenEye]

Didn't we JUST have this discussion, lol?

[Vicious]

In terms of levels Illidan is stronger, in terms of spellcasting levels Khadgar is superior because unlike Illidan he is a full spellcaster AND was trained by Medivh the most powerful spellcaster Azeroth had.


Despite that, Illidan could still beat Khadgar in a fight, absorving Gul´dan power isn´t a small thing.

[Tularis]

Unlike Illidan who had to absorb the head of one of the most powerful spellcasters ever to reach the skill he is, Khadgar is all natural baby :P I have huge respect for Khadgar as a character; he has been through alot and survived basically because he is a damn smart person who has alot of cunning and wit, as well as quite potent magic power. His not uber like alot of other people, but he makes up for it in other areas.

[Kenzuki]

Despite that, Illidan could still beat Khadgar in a fight, absorving Gul´dan power isn´t a small thing.

He might, remember Khadgar's levels given in S&L are those BEFORE he went to Draenor and fought in all those battles, and he did fight Deathwing and survive, and help kill Medivh. He's also really smart and knows more about the Arcane than Illidan. I mean come on, Rhonin knew more about being a mage than Illidan did :D

[FreeLancer]

Despite that, Illidan could still beat Khadgar in a fight, absorving Gul´dan power isn´t a small thing.

I would not bet on it. For one, we really don't know much about Khadgar presently. I would not doubt he is the most powerful archmage. It's twenty years since he helped defeat Deathwing and saved Azeroth from Draenor's destruction (all while manage to help save himself and his companions from that very destruction).

Also, you should look carefully at their personalities. Khadgar is much more considerate of consequences in his actions, while Illidan honestly doesn't care much. Illidan is rash and selfish, and frankly at the moment completely insane. One would not count him out, but still. Perhaps, it is best to wait and see. Criminally insane people are dangerous, due to their irrationality, but that is just as well their weakness. (I use criminally insanity, as opposed to normal insanity due to the fact that your normal "insane" person is complete harmless. It is a common myth that they are "dangerous" in anyway whatsoever, and clearly Illidan is dangerous in many, many ways.)

[FreeLancer]

Unlike Illidan who had to absorb the head of one of the most powerful spellcasters ever to reach the skill he is, Khadgar is all natural baby :P I have huge respect for Khadgar as a character; he has been through alot and survived basically because he is a damn smart person who has alot of cunning and wit, as well as quite potent magic power. His not uber like alot of other people, but he makes up for it in other areas.

Khadgar is not natural (while it is clear he has talent), his spellcasting ability has come to him from years of practice and learning. His skill was earned under the tutelage of the trainers at Dalaran and then under the tutelage of none-other-than the Last Guardian himself, all before he finally started his own person independant studies of arcane magic.

Illidan is by far the more "natural" spellcaster, as his power comes from less training, something he is far to impatient to continue for long, and more sheer brute force will. He wants so much to be special, important, and different that he becomes skilled and powerful. Still I cannot seeing him spending the time study and honing his skills the way a Mage of Dalaran or especially Khadgar would.

Illidan would not have survived to become an apprentice of Medivh, simply because he would not bear Medivh's innitiation task. Cleaning the Guardian's Library is simply below Illidan. I am not saying that he could not do it, I am saying that he would not. His pride and impatience would get in the way. That is why, as Kenzuki said, "Khadgar is a much more articulate spellcaster," because he has taken the time and self-discipline to be.

[Tularis]

Well I don't know what natural is in your part of the world but thats exactly what I meant :P Khadgar spent years training, while a large part of Illidans power comes from the skull of Gul`dan. Besides, Illidan happens to be a few years older then good ole Khaddie.

My post wasn't one of who was the most powerful, because Illdian obviously is. Its about how cool Khadgar is, and how he has gotten through alot for someone who isn't regarded as that incredibly powerful. His cool, and underrated in my opinion (coolness factor wise.)

[Timolas]

I notice a pattern here :P FreeLancer and Kenzuki agree on damn well everything.

Noooow my turn.

Illidan was with Azshara and the Highborne, and those were extremely efficient in Arcane magic. Just look at Azshara now, a potent evil powerful whatever she is in Nazjatar.
So obviously he did recieve training, wether mentioned or not.

Also, what does cleaning a library have to do with wether Khadgar would beat Illidan or not? Besides, just because Khadgar TRAINED under Medivh doesn't mean he can live up to that power. Clearly he doesn't...
As to helping kill Medivh; Medivh wanted to die. So whats so fascinating about that...
Illidan was powerful BEFORE he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan. Now with it as well hes more than a force to be reckoned with, wether you admit it or not, because clearly you hate him. Now he's not my favourite character, but Khadgar couldn't beat him.

Gul'dan's remaining power lives on in Illidan, and Gul'dan was THE greatest ever living mortal warlock, who changed the very shape of the land and was taught by Kil'jaeden.

Kenzuki mentions Khadgar's power thingies are before he went to Draenor and fought in all those battles. What about the countless battles Illidan has fought? He's fought Night Elves, Scourge, Demons, Orcs and who knows what else... and if you say he had troops to help him. Well, so did Khadgar.
Also, if you love the CR ratings so much; Khadgar survived Deathwing. According to CRs, Illidan could beat Deathwing. Which I dont agree with, but speaking of statistics, there you go.

[Kenzuki]

Once again, your foolishness is amazing. Deathwing could destroy Illidan in a one on one fight, look at their actual stats not their whacked out CRs man.

Also I know for a fact that Illidan did not gain any levels during WCIII or TFT according to Bob Fitch, the only thing he did gain was a boost in power from the Skull of Gul'dan that turned him into a Skull Demon, he didn't gain all of Gul'dan's powers like a fusion, he merely gained a boon.

This is what Illidan gained by absorbing the Skull of Gul'dan as per Bob Fitch.

SKULL DEMON
When he destroyed the skull of Gul'dan and absorbed it's powers, Illidan gained the following benefits:

CREATING A SKULL DEMON
“Skull Demon” is an acquired template that can be added to any creature with Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma scores of at least 3. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: The base creature’s type changes to Outsider with the Demonic and Evil subtypes. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves. Size is unchanged.
Hit Dice and Hit Points: The base creature’s Hit Dice are increased to at least d8. New Hit Dice that would normally be less than d8 are increased to d8 as well. Hit Dice that are d8 or better already are unaffected.
Speed: A skull demon grows demonic wings. Unless the base creature has a better fly speed, the creature can fly with a speed of 50 and average maneuverability.
Armor Class: The base creature’s hide thickens with demon flesh. Its natural armor improves to at least +10, if not already +10 or better.

Special Attacks: A skull demon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attacks.
— Demon Form (Ex): See the Manual of Monsters. Duration is 3 rounds + Cha modifier.
— Fel Blast (Ex): See the Manual of Monsters. Caster level is equal to the base creature's Hit Dice (to a maximum of 20). The saving throw DC is ½ HD + adjusted Cha modifier.

Special Qualities: A skull demon has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.
— Demonic traits (see the Manual of Monsters).
— Outsider traits.
— Damage reduction 10/good.
— Resistance to acid 20 and cold 20.
— Spell resistance 10+HD (max 30).

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4.
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +3.
Alignment: Always evil (any).
Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +9.

SKULL DEMON CHARACTERS
Skull demons are always evil, which causes characters of certain classes to lose some class abilities. Otherwise, a skull demon retains all class abilities it had in life.

I never said I hated Illidan and I don't. I'm just saying Rhonin knew more about magic than he did and Khadgar is waaaaaay better than Rhonin was. Also the Ancient Kaldorei did NOT know more about magic than the modern day Kirin Tor did, that's a fact.

[Timolas]

Once again, your foolishness is amazing. Deathwing could destroy Illidan in a one on one fight, look at their actual stats not their whacked out CRs man.

Also I know for a fact that Illidan did not gain any levels during WCIII or TFT according to Bob Fitch, the only thing he did gain was a boost in power from the Skull of Gul'dan that turned him into a Skull Demon, he didn't gain all of Gul'dan's powers like a fusion, he merely gained a boon.

This is what Illidan gained by absorbing the Skull of Gul'dan as per Bob Fitch.



I never said I hated Illidan and I don't. I'm just saying Rhonin knew more about magic than he did and Khadgar is waaaaaay better than Rhonin was. Also the Ancient Kaldorei did NOT know more about magic than the modern day Kirin Tor did, that's a fact.

My foolishness? Gosh how a simple debate can make you a hothead.
Now about Bob Fitch; do you even know who that guy is? He falls under 'additional programming'. Not master of lore, not even Programming. Additional Programming. Does that make everything he says canon? Really Metzen himself made a mistake, you think some guy who works on a computer can't too?
Besides; Deathwing WOULD step on Illidan. He'd step on Khadgar and most others, I never said he couldnt.
Im just taking an example of your 'CR's that you love so much. You pretty much shat on your own favourite weapon just now.

[Kenzuki]

No I didn't, when the CR's don't match up I know they were done incorrectly. If the CR's don't match up with the stats you throw them out the window. That doesn't mean that they are ALL misdone. If you really don't understand the system, please don't comment on them.

By the way Bob Fitch is a close friend of Metzen and whatever he said came from Metzen himself, it's official. Believe it or not, I really don't care either way.

[Timolas]

No I didn't, when the CR's don't match up I know they were done incorrectly. If the CR's don't match up with the stats you throw them out the window. That doesn't mean that they are ALL misdone. If you really don't understand the system, please don't comment on them.

By the way Bob Fitch is a close friend of Metzen and whatever he said came from Metzen himself, it's official. Believe it or not, I really don't care either way.

If some are incorrect then the system is screwed up obviously. You just cant let go because they support some of your arguements. Bob Fitch is still not a reliable source from my point of view; because how do you even know if he is not jumping to a conclusion; and only Metzen deals the lore. I know you don't care, but I'm sure you've guessed thats how I feel as well.

[Kenzuki]

Metzen is not the only one who deals with the lore sonny jim, he's got seven other guys doing it as well.

The reason some of them are incorrect is because the old team was using parts of the 3.0 system and then came along the 3.5 system which screwed them over. I can also accurately measure some by the fact that Bob Fitch stated that the New Lich King is indeed stronger than Archimonde was.

[Timolas]

Metzen is not the only one who deals with the lore sonny jim, he's got seven other guys doing it as well.

The reason some of them are incorrect is because the old team was using parts of the 3.0 system and then came along the 3.5 system which screwed them over. I can also accurately measure some by the fact that Bob Fitch stated that the New Lich King is indeed stronger than Archimonde was.

Yeah but Metzen is THE real lore source; he can get help but even his helpers didn't stop his mistake. Thats why I consider Metzen to speak cannon (most of the time, except when making demons playable), because he is the real warcraft lore pimp dude god guy jim.

Anyway you just admitted, the system screwed over 3.0 blabalala. The mistake remains doesnt it.

[Kenzuki]

All you do is change the CR scores, the stats as is are fine. Boost the CR scores of the Aspects to in their 40's and it's all good. Bob Fitch got his information from Metzen, so I consider it cannon.

[Tysar]

The skull demon template isn't right imo, it shoould be varied by what kind of skull was consumed, and in Illidan's case, quite a powerful one. Illidan gained Gul'Dan's memories of the Tomb of Sargeras, which also means he gained all the knowledge the orc had, including that of Fel Magic and how to cast it (opening the quick portal for example, or closing the dimensional gates). That's way more than "just a boon"...

[Kenzuki]

The skull demon template isn't right imo, it shoould be varied by what kind of skull was consumed, and in Illidan's case, quite a powerful one. Illidan gained Gul'Dan's memories of the Tomb of Sargeras, which also means he gained all the knowledge the orc had, including that of Fel Magic and how to cast it (opening the quick portal for example, or closing the dimensional gates). That's way more than "just a boon"...

That is the template that was given to Illidan, like it or not. It was made specifically for Illidan and he's the only one who has it.

[ARM3481]

I
Illidan was with Azshara and the Highborne, and those were extremely efficient in Arcane magic. Just look at Azshara now, a potent evil powerful whatever she is in Nazjatar.
So obviously he did recieve training, wether mentioned or not.



Not an outright disagreement with your point, but just thought I'd mention that, while immensely powerful and adept at unleashing their arcane power, the Highborne were noted for not refining their art to the point of practicality, but instead opted to increase their raw might and delve deeper into the Well. Rather than honing what power they already had, they kept trying to reach higher and higher, and tus were prone to swing around their magic like a hammer. Just think of it, most powerful mages who established something like the portal at the Well of Eternity would be expected to have established wards, shield spells, and countless other defensive measures to allow themselves to protect the Well without having to actually be there. Instead the demons and highborne themselves were the primary line of defense, and they proved unable to keep Furion away from it. That might explain why, despite his remarkable power, Illidan seems to prefer hitting things with those blades of his rather than using anything that could be considered subtle or formulated spellcraft, though he probably uses his power bluntly to manifest additional physical might while fighting as he does. He managed to create a doorway to Outland himself, but that was probably more likened to prying open a temporary hole between the worlds that snapped shut as soon as he stopped holding it in place, as opposed to creating something stable like a Dark Portal, or the portal in Dalaran. If faced with true subtlety in the use of arcane power, Illidan might simply try to bull his way through, whereas a trained mage would be more inclined to keep his/her distance, knowing their own physical limits and that magic is about more than just "smashing things with one's mind."

Just remember the fight with Arthas. Illidan simply resorted to physical violence rather than using any of the demonic abilities granted by his power, and earned himself a gaping chest wound for his efforts.

[Timolas]

Not an outright disagreement with your point, but just thought I'd mention that, while immensely powerful and adept at unleashing their arcane power, the Highborne were noted for not refining their art to the point of practicality, but instead opted to increase their raw might and delve deeper into the Well. Rather than honing what power they already had, they kept trying to reach higher and higher, and tus were prone to swing around their magic like a hammer. Just think of it, most powerful mages who established something like the portal at the Well of Eternity would be expected to have established wards, shield spells, and countless other defensive measures to allow themselves to protect the Well without having to actually be there. Instead the demons and highborne themselves were the primary line of defense, and they proved unable to keep Furion away from it. That might explain why, despite his remarkable power, Illidan seems to prefer hitting things with those blades of his rather than using anything that could be considered subtle or formulated spellcraft, though he probably uses his power bluntly to manifest additional physical might while fighting as he does. He managed to create a doorway to Outland himself, but that was probably more likened to prying open a temporary hole between the worlds that snapped shut as soon as he stopped holding it in place, as opposed to creating something stable like a Dark Portal, or the portal in Dalaran. If faced with true subtlety in the use of arcane power, Illidan might simply try to bull his way through, whereas a trained mage would be more inclined to keep his/her distance, knowing their own physical limits and that magic is about more than just "smashing things with one's mind."

Just remember the fight with Arthas. Illidan simply resorted to physical violence rather than using any of the demonic abilities granted by his power, and earned himself a gaping chest wound for his efforts.

True; I wouldn't call Illidan a subtle caster, but he isn't a weak one either. Simply opening a rift to Outland just like that is way more than the Kirin Tor could do. Sure, Mages can Teleport and make temporary portals; but not to other worlds.
You're right in your post; but although Illidan is savage with his magic, so to speak, it is potent. He was just pretty stupid not to use it properly against Arthas, as you said I suppose.

[Kenzuki]

I bet Illidan couldn't open portals like that either if he didn't gain the knowledge from the Skull of Gul'dan. Remember, Gul'dan and his warlocks helped enlarge Medivh's Rift, so he knew a little about portals.

I truly think Khadgar is a better spellcaster, but that's just me. I mean Illidan learned alot from Rhonin for pete's sakes.

[Vicious]

Illidan was a very young Night elf in those times standarts Kenzuki, don´t forget that Furion was also a crappy druid in those times compared to what he is today and Rhonin came from Dalaran in a timeline were magic was much more defined.

In Timolas words, Illidan is a savage caster and that aproach is very effective for him which is what got him into the middle of Icecrown itself.

[Timolas]

I bet Illidan couldn't open portals like that either if he didn't gain the knowledge from the Skull of Gul'dan. Remember, Gul'dan and his warlocks helped enlarge Medivh's Rift, so he knew a little about portals.

I truly think Khadgar is a better spellcaster, but that's just me. I mean Illidan learned alot from Rhonin for pete's sakes.

On top of Vicious' points; I thought you said the only thing Illidan gained from the skull was Gul'dan's memories.

[GreenEye]

Knowledge is power.

[Kerrah]

Translate my newest Aforism in a Binary Translator.

[Timolas]

Translate my newest Aforism in a Binary Translator.

It reads: There is no power that is not knowledge.

Back on topic - Illidan got much from the Skull of Gul'dan; but Arthas got way more from fusing with Ner'zhul. So I wouldn't say his abilities are unfairly gained.

EDIT: Kerrah solve this one!
01011001011011110111010101110010001000000110110101 10111101110100011010000110010101110010001000000110 10010111001100100000011000010010000001101000011011 1101110010011100110110010100101110

:p Those words sprang to mind

[Kerrah]

It reads: There is no power that is not knowledge.

Back on topic - Illidan got much from the Skull of Gul'dan; but Arthas got way more from fusing with Ner'zhul. So I wouldn't say his abilities are unfairly gained.

EDIT: Kerrah solve this one!
01011001011011110111010101110010001000000110110101 10111101110100011010000110010101110010001000000110 10010111001100100000011000010010000001101000011011 1101110010011100110110010100101110

:p Those words sprang to mind
Do you know where mine is from?

Ill give you a hint: MORTAL COMBAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!
...wait, thats not a hint...

Anyway, Gul'dan was after Medihv the number one Portal Creator, so it is logical that his knowledge helped illidan create those Rifts alot.

[Kenzuki]

Illidan was a very young Night elf in those times standarts Kenzuki, don´t forget that Furion was also a crappy druid in those times compared to what he is today and Rhonin came from Dalaran in a timeline were magic was much more defined.

In Timolas words, Illidan is a savage caster and that aproach is very effective for him which is what got him into the middle of Icecrown itself.

I doubt Illidan had much time to train himself while in prison in the Barrow Dens for Ten Thousand years, which is why he was the same level during RoC and TFT as he was during the WoTA.

And yes, I never said he wasn't a powerful spellcaster, because he is! He's more of a sorcerer than a wizard, in that his power is more natural rather than a learned craft. I still think Khadgar could outcast him though, because he's a much more intelligent fighter. It's nice that Illidan has a super rocket to shoot around, but it sucks for him if there's another guy out there who not only has more ammunition, but has the knowledge how to use it!

[Timolas]

I doubt Illidan had much time to train himself while in prison in the Barrow Dens for Ten Thousand years, which is why he was the same level during RoC and TFT as he was during the WoTA.

And yes, I never said he wasn't a powerful spellcaster, because he is! He's more of a sorcerer than a wizard, in that his power is more natural rather than a learned craft. I still think Khadgar could outcast him though, because he's a much more intelligent fighter. It's nice that Illidan has a super rocket to shoot around, but it sucks for him if there's another guy out there who not only has more ammunition, but has the knowledge how to use it!

Yes, Khadgar is more skilled in an 'elegant way' with magic so to speak; so he'd be able to outcast Illidan in complex spells. Yet the fact remains that Illidan is stronger - he's grown in power and is a half-demonic uber savage. Even if he can't totally outcast Khadgar; hed tear him apart with his swords if he countered the spells long enough. Though I wouldnt say he'd do it easily. Thats from my perspective anyway.

[Kenzuki]

He's not stronger magically, but yes he has a higher level than Khadgar.

[FreeLancer]

Please don't mind the long post, bit of a catch up. Mostly just cut and paste comments and my responses.

Illidan was with Azshara and the Highborne, and those were extremely efficient in Arcane magic. Just look at Azshara now, a potent evil powerful whatever she is in Nazjatar. So obviously he did recieve training, wether mentioned or not.

You will note, I did not deny that Illidan recieved training, I just said: "his power comes from less training" and more "natural" affinity.

Illidan was powerful BEFORE he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan. Now with it as well hes more than a force to be reckoned with, wether you admit it or not, because clearly you hate him. Now he's not my favourite character, but Khadgar couldn't beat him.

Not that it is terribly relevant to the debate, but I do NOT hate Illidan. I mean, really...he's a character, and one I enjoy because he was masterfully written and created. As a fellow writer, I respect the skill with which it takes to create such a character that capture the viewer/gamer.

My point, which was apparently missed, was that we don't know how much power Khadgar has gained in the last twenty or so years and with a Archmage of his growing power (which is clear that in the short span between the First and Second Wars, he went from an Apprentice to an Archmage) he has not been idle in the intervening years. Assuming Illidan could beat him is simply an assumption based on outdated facts. We know how powerful Illidan is at present, we have only assumption as to Archmage Khadgar.

Deathwing WOULD step on Illidan. He'd step on Khadgar and most others, I never said he couldnt.

Except, he did not. Khadgar, Alleria, and all lived, and were not splattered.

Illidan got much from the Skull of Gul'dan; but Arthas got way more from fusing with Ner'zhul. So I wouldn't say his abilities are unfairly gained.

Arthas did not fuse with Ner'zhul till after he defeated Illidan outside the Frozen Throne. Besides, since when is anything in life, war, and warcraft fair? If it was fair, neither Khadgar or Illidan would win, it would be a stalemate.

He's not stronger magically, but yes he has a higher level than Khadgar.

Clarification, Illidan (post-TFT) has a higher level than Khadgar (Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal). My bet, is that the present Khadgar (not that it terribly matters, cause we don't know what the Khadgar is like now) could beat the present Illidan in a fight.

[Kenzuki]

Right you are Freelancer. Khadgar's stats come from just prior to him in Beoynd the Dark Portal. And on all those battles on Draenor and no doubt in the Twisting Nether, he has gained much power. I'de LOVE it if Khadgar became the Guardian of Tirisfal if possible.

[Vicious]

Anyway, i´ll bet that the expedition army could beat the crap of the standart Stormwind army as of now, twenty years living with demons isn´t peachy at all.

I doubt Illidan had much time to train himself while in prison in the Barrow Dens for Ten Thousand years, which is why he was the same level during RoC and TFT as he was during the WoTA.

Illidan trained himself with Azzinoth´s blades and since he didn´t do it at the War of the Ancients i bet he killed some time in his 10.000 years prison, he got his warrior levels there.

[ScytheRexx]

I tried to stay out of the "Illidan is stronger! No Khadgar is!" debate, but I wanted to list off some facts here.

Khadgar, Turalyon, Danath, Alleria, and Kudran are all trapped with an entire army on Outland. We are sure most of the army probably perished during the cataclysm that destroyed Draenor, but it seems a decent amount survived if they were able to create Honor's Hold.

Yet, even though they had a foothold on Outland, they didn't seem to be able to defeat Magtheridon, the Pit Lord that became lord of Outland at the Black Citidel. I would not expect them to simply ignore such a threat to their own survival as a giant floating castle of death run by demons. I am sure the two sides clashed often, but neither was able to really get any ground.

Illidan came to the world however, and with his armies, took over all of Magtheridons holding on Outland, became the new lord of outland and now the ruler of countless armies, you don't do that when you are weaker then the little keep sitting on the other side of the map.

I actually wonder what would have happened to Honor's Hold, had Illidan not gone insane and decided to lock himself away in the Black Citidel. We know the Kael'thas decided to go attack the last fortress of uncorrupted Draenei, but that was a Blood Elf attack, so it seems to me that Illidan had little to say in the invasion, otherwise other races would have gotten involved.

I feel Khadgar is very powerful, but all the abilities Illidan has gained over the years, I just feel myself that even Khadgar would just be unable to handle such raw power. He may cast a spell better then anyone, but spells takes time to prepare, and Illidan had 10,000 years to do nothing but practice his techniques in both magic and his glaives, powerful artifacts from the past. Also, Illidan can open a portal between the worlds almost effortlessly, even a feat that Khadgar needed time, energy, and a book to even do, a book which he lost and thus was unable to ever return home.

The fact that Illidan was able to even hold his own at all to Arthas showed how good he was with his glaives, as Arthas was known as the greatest weaponmaster in the world, he killed others with almost no effort, but even at 100% Lich King infused power, Illidan gave him run for his money during combat, untill Illidan left himself open for Arthas to strike down.

I think the question we all should be asking, is why has Kil'jaeden not flown down from the sky and began turning everything to ash in a fit of "you f'ing newbs can't do anything right!" I am sure he would be able to turn Illidan into mush, let alone Khadgar and company. He made Illidan wet his pants when he flew in effortlessly, and now for whatever reason Kil'jaeden has moved backstage agian sending more and more of his remaining troops instead of taking matters into his own hands.

[Vicious]

Nice post Schyte but Arthas, when he was a paladin, was nowhere close to be the greatest weaponmaster in the world, despite what the warcraft 3 manual said.

[ScytheRexx]

Nice post Schyte but Arthas, when he was a paladin, was nowhere close to be the greatest weaponmaster in the world, despite what the warcraft 3 manual said.

Well the game sure would not have been any fun if Arthas was able to kill everyone in one shot huh? Its the reason that the 10,000 year old arch-druid Malfurion Stormrage and master of the sentinels Tyrande Whisperwind could get gangbanged by a couple ghouls in the early levels of the NE campaign, yet later on Tyrande in a cutscene could kill thousands of ghouls instantly in one starfall cast. Playability takes the forefront in a game, the true potential of a character is thus implied and shown in the cutscenes, not the actual gameplay. Maiev is another example, as is Illidan, Anub'arak, Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Thrall, Cairne, etc... They all start at a low game level for playability, no one wants to just walk around destroying everything that comes near them with level 10 powerhouses from the begining.

He was a master of all weapons, Uther himself encouraged his skill, and he trained for years as a child with Muraden Bronzebeard. His skill with the blade was second to none of his own age. He killed Uther Lightbringer and Sylvanas Windrunner, heroes and leaders of powerful factions, defeated Illidan, Kael'thas, and Lady Vashj, the Dreadlord Mal'ganis, and killed thousands of undead as a paladin and thousands of humans and elves as a death knight.

Its not like he was omnipotent or anything, he just was really good at what he did, and that was swinging a sword, hammer, anything he could get in his hands on.

[Vicious]

And i´m not seeing Tyrande getting owned by a couple of ghouls in a ingame cutscene, low level or not because that´s not supost to happen, besides that not´s the point here.

Pretty much every major he killed, Arthas had a huge army of Undead on his back, Antonidas, Uther, Sylvanas, you name it.
He is good sure, he was trained by the best but he could never beat all of those hero one on one, especially Uther, it was never his sole credit.

[ScytheRexx]

And i´m not seeing Tyrande getting owned by a couple of ghouls in a ingame cutscene, low level or not because that´s not supost to happen, besides that not´s the point here.

Pretty much every major he killed, Arthas had a huge army of Undead on his back, Antonidas, Uther, Sylvanas, you name it.
He is good sure, he was trained by the best but he could never beat all of those hero one on one, especially Uther, it was never his sole credit.

It is the point here, because you are basically saying to ignore the fact he was titled the greatest weapon master of his time simply because he was a "paladin in training" in WarCraft 3 and a lower level then Uther, if you meant something else you might need to be more clear next time. Also, I don't get this cutscene "i´m not seeing Tyrande getting owned by a couple of ghouls in a ingame cutscene". You are right, she does not, all I am saying, is that in the game when you play, to make it challenging, the hero is not as strong as implied. Tyrande in the game could do damage but always, like a War3 hero, needed to have the army with her at all times. Then in a cutscene, we watch her kill hundreds of undead in waves using starfall, showing the true implied power of the head Priestess of Elune.

All I am saying, is don't judge the power of Arthas based on his game level at the begining of the human campaign, as its not correct in the least based on his actual weapon skills at the time. If game level in War3 was important, then Daelin Proudmoore by himself would kill everyone in the game during a one on one fight includinjg Rexxar, Thrall, Arthas, Uther, Illidan, Malfurion, etc...

Also, Arthas did have an army, but its implied that in many of these battles with other heroes, he defeated the hero in question by himself during the final moments in one on one combat.

Mal'ganis died in a cutscene with Arthas striking him down with Frostmourne, never once did you fight Mal'ganis with your army in Northrend, the death was entirely at the hands of Arthas all by themselves.

Illidan is shown struck down by Arthas in a cutscene all by themselves, I don't even need to explain this one.

Even Sylvanas was all alone with Arthas when he struck her down and ripped her soul from her body. Any fights and deaths that happened before this "death scene" were just for gameplay, as Sylvanas would just ressurect and be back on the field two seconds later, she never truely "died" in the lore till the final battle at Silvermoon when she went one on one with Arthas.

Only Uther was never given a "death" cutscene showing that the final battle was a one on one showdown. I will leave out Kael'thas and Lady Vashj because they never died or got a cutscene.

Hope that explains it better.

[FreeLancer]

ScytheRexx you have some good points, but I still think my point stands. We just don't know yet what has happened to Khadgar and company. They could have fled Draenor and come back and (re)built Honor's Hold after the cataclysm, or it could have been built recently. Maybe they were lieing low under Magtheridon, cause they did not want to Archimonde or any of the other Generals of the Legion, till Illidan in his oh-so subtle way came him and wiped him out. Maybe, perhaps, I don't know.... Honestly, we are debating on far too much assumption. Until the Burning Crusade is out and their fates revealed, we really won't be able to say concretely.

[ScytheRexx]

ScytheRexx you have some good points, but I still think my point stands. We just don't know yet what has happened to Khadgar and company. They could have fled Draenor and come back and (re)built Honor's Hold after the cataclysm, or it could have been built recently. Maybe they were lieing low under Magtheridon, cause they did not want to Archimonde or any of the other Generals of the Legion, till Illidan in his oh-so subtle way came him and wiped him out. Maybe, perhaps, I don't know.... Honestly, we are debating on far too much assumption. Until the Burning Crusade is out and their fates revealed, we really won't be able to say concretely.

Fair enough.

[Vicious]

Ok, let´s make this simpler.

Go check out Arthas status at it´s peak as a paladin (The time that he was said to be the greatest swordsman in the kingdom) and compare it to let´s say Uther.

And about IllidanxArthas fight....Arthas was:

a)Empowered by the Lich King beyond his own abilities

b)Illidan was fighting Undead non stop for days, as depleted and was not at its best.

Again, not his sole credit.

But now that i remember it, Sylvanas was one on one with him, i stand corrected on that one but noticed that i never included Mal´Ganis in my post since i remember that it was indeed him that killed him.
At the Antonidas in-game cut scene, he was already dying and Arthas killed Uther with 30+ ghouls at his back.
I´m not comparing gaming level here because if i did Daelin would be able to kill eryone, even Archimonde like you said.

[Kenzuki]

About the Illidan/Arthas match

1. Ner'zhul RESTORED Arthas' powers, that is why he could reach level ten again. It was all Arthas' powers.

2. Don't whine about Arthas' empowerment, the bulk of Illidan's powers came form Gul'dan anyway, so it's fair.

Arthas was fighting too you know. He fought through the Faceless Ones, the blood elves and naga, raised Sapphiron from the dead, et cetera. Neither one used their spells, so the fight was even.


Also, Khadgar and the army were not on Draenor when it exploded, Beyond the Dark Portal was clear on that issue. Therefore I think the Expedition just recently came back or something.

Oh yes, and the only guy that Illidan is ever credited with Killing, Tichondrius, guess what? He had an army with him too! So did Grom when he fought Cenarius.

Arthas was trained by Uther and Muradin, two of the greatest masters of war to ever live, you honestly expect Illidan who had next to no formal weapon training to last with Arthas in battle? Also according to the RPG books Arthas personally ran Uther through.

[Timolas]

About the Illidan/Arthas match

1. Ner'zhul RESTORED Arthas' powers, that is why he could reach level ten again. It was all Arthas' powers.

2. Don't whine about Arthas' empowerment, the bulk of Illidan's powers came form Gul'dan anyway, so it's fair.

Arthas was fighting too you know. He fought through the Faceless Ones, the blood elves and naga, raised Sapphiron from the dead, et cetera. Neither one used their spells, so the fight was even.


Also, Khadgar and the army were not on Draenor when it exploded, Beyond the Dark Portal was clear on that issue. Therefore I think the Expedition just recently came back or something.

Oh yes, and the only guy that Illidan is ever credited with Killing, Tichondrius, guess what? He had an army with him too! So did Grom when he fought Cenarius.

Arthas was trained by Uther and Muradin, two of the greatest masters of war to ever live, you honestly expect Illidan who had next to no formal weapon training to last with Arthas in battle? Also according to the RPG books Arthas personally ran Uther through.

Arthas personally ran Uther through doesnt mean there were not Ghouls hammering at him before that. It means Arthas dealt the killing blow.
You forget Illidan did actually solo Tichondrius; because he had Chaos damage, and Tichondrius was only harmed by Chaos damage (in other words beings of high power.) Any number of Night Elves cannot barely scratch Tichondrius in that match, so Illidan pretty much soloed him.
Illidan also killed Maeiv, for the record. Not to mention all the battles hes fought against different factions.
Anyway, I'm not saying he can take on Arthas or this or yabber dabber, just standing up for him on some of your points.

Also, Muradin never participated in major wars or took down any great foes, so Arthas being trained by him doesn't amaze me. Sure he was a skilled, good dwarf (my favourite dwarf character too) but he wasn't the greatest ever warrior to live either. Uther though is one great Paladin having taken part in the Second War.
Finally Arthas was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time; but that is more limited to Lordaeron if you ask me.

[ScytheRexx]

Go check out Arthas status at it´s peak as a paladin (The time that he was said to be the greatest swordsman in the kingdom) and compare it to let´s say Uther.

Oh, then you are comparing PALADIN abilities. I will admit to you that Uther, is a better PALADIN, but that does not mean he is a better weapon master. You have to understand that I am not talking all abilities, I am only talking skill with weapons. You put a mage like Khadgar and have him fight Arthas after his training, and Khadgar would most likely win, but he is not a better "weapon master" then Arthas, not even by a long shot.

Uther was a talented warrior, but he started life as a cleric and didn't have nearly the same training that Arthas received at the hands of Muradan. Uther had less then 6 years on the original timeline for training with Lothar, and even less then that if you go by the revised timeline. Arthas was trained since he was a child in all forms of combat weapons, and only after he had become renown with such skill, did he do as his father always wanted and joined the Knights of the Silverhand. He was a newb paladin, no douht, but he was not a newbie when it game to martial combat. He was the worlds greatest weapon master of his time.

And about IllidanxArthas fight....Arthas was:

[quote]a)Empowered by the Lich King beyond his own abilities

So was Illidan, as he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan way back and gained immense power. Its silly to bring up the empowerment of one individual as making it unbalanced when the other individual was empowered himself. Gul'dan surpasses Ner'zhul in power when they both were alive, and now only when he became the Lich King did he take back his place at the top of power, but even then he was "channeling" his power through another person, unlike Illidan that had consumed the power and thus had full control.

b)Illidan was fighting Undead non stop for days, as depleted and was not at its best.

Illidan had two or three armies at his beck and call during his entire campaign on Northrend. We didn't even see him fight till the final mission, for all we know he had Lady Vashj and Kael'thas do all the work, but lets still just imply that he did fight somewhat with his two or three armies, lets look at what Arthas had to deal with.

Arthas had to be poisened, landed on Northrend, traveled and fought dwarves, tuskarr, dragons, naga, faceless ones, the avatar of an old god or even just a greater servent of the old gods, with a skeleton crew, all while being weaker then any of the other heroes because of the poisening, including his bodyguard Anub'arak.

He didn't even get a true army till he reached Icecrown, and the Lich King rejuvinated him.

After that, Arthas was not just sitting around, he fought Lady Vasj, Kael'thas, and finally Illidan, who ran around with an army that was half the time bigger the Arthas and what remained of the Scourge.

Agian, you are making Illidan out as this "oh poor Illidan was just hurt/weak/had a flu/tired/disadvantaged and that is why he lost" and then compeletely ignore that fact that Arthas went through just as man difficult trials, and had just as much empowerment, as Illidan had.

[Timolas]

You make it sound like Illidan gained all of Gul'dan's powers. He only gained his memories; and apparently with the knowledge came some power but far from Gul'dan's strength and ability. If he gained all of Gul'dan's powers added to his own do you seriously think Arthas could stand a chance before merging with Ner'zhul? Even Kenzuki would admit that he would have been floored... Gul'dan was the greatest ever mortal warlock. Arthas was a skilled weaponmaster, but as a Death Knight he couldn't possibly beat Gul'dan.

[ScytheRexx]

You make it sound like Illidan gained all of Gul'dan's powers. He only gained his memories; and apparently with the knowledge came some power but far from Gul'dan's strength and ability. If he gained all of Gul'dan's powers added to his own do you seriously think Arthas could stand a chance before merging with Ner'zhul? Even Kenzuki would admit that he would have been floored... Gul'dan was the greatest ever mortal warlock. Arthas was a skilled weaponmaster, but as a Death Knight he couldn't possibly beat Gul'dan.

I never said he gained ALL of Gul'dans ability to use such powers, but yes, he did gain all of Gul'dans knowledge OF such powers, and thus knowledge of spells that he can refine using his own abilities. This increases his overall power, as he has a larger arsenal of magic spells that he can refine.

You need to understand a few things, when it comes to magic, knowledge equals power. Khadgar, Antonidas, Kel'huzad, etc... didn't become a Arch-mages naturally, they learned spells, abilities, cantations, and using their willpower to use such magic in higher degrees. The key is that they were taught the magic and went with it from there, practicing till they became as good as they are.

When Illidan consumed the skull, he gained all of Gul'dans memeories, all of his TEACHINGS as a Warlock, thus, he knew all of the magic that Gul'dan once knew, including portal magic and manipulation of fel magic, he even took the knowledge that Gul'dan knew about the Eye of Sargeras.

He may not have the willpower nessisary to raise islands from the ocean, or use the abilities of Gul'dan at 100%, but saying that he was at a disadvantage during his duel with Arthas is just plain silly, he was able to utilize enough of Gul'dans memeories to almost destroy an entire continent using the Eye of Sargeras, destroyed a large scourge fortress, took over Outland, and still be able to fight the entire Scourge to the base of Icecrown. He even killed Tichandrius, which is not a small feat by any means.

All I am saying, from the very begining of this post, is that Illidan standing up to Arthas AT ALL in melee combat was very impressive for him, yes Arthas was empowered, but so was Illidan. It was a good fight with Arthas winning because he was the better man when it came to melee combat.

[Timolas]

I never said he gained ALL of Gul'dans ability to use such powers, but yes, he did gain all of Gul'dans knowledge OF such powers, and thus knowledge of spells that he can refine using his own abilities. This increases his overall power, as he has a larger arsenal of magic spells that he can refine.

You need to understand a few things, when it comes to magic, knowledge equals power. Khadgar, Antonidas, Kel'huzad, etc... didn't become a Arch-mages naturally, they learned spells, abilities, cantations, and using their willpower to use such magic in higher degrees. The key is that they were taught the magic and went with it from there, practicing till they became as good as they are.

When Illidan consumed the skull, he gained all of Gul'dans memeories, all of his TEACHINGS as a Warlock, thus, he knew all of the magic that Gul'dan once knew, including portal magic and manipulation of fel magic, he even took the knowledge that Gul'dan knew about the Eye of Sargeras.

He may not have the willpower nessisary to raise islands from the ocean, or use the abilities of Gul'dan at 100%, but saying that he was at a disadvantage during his duel with Arthas is just plain silly, he was able to utilize enough of Gul'dans memeories to almost destroy an entire continent using the Eye of Sargeras, destroyed a large scourge fortress, took over Outland, and still be able to fight the entire Scourge to the base of Icecrown. He even killed Tichandrius, which is not a small feat by any means.

All I am saying, from the very begining of this post, is that Illidan standing up to Arthas AT ALL in melee combat was very impressive for him, yes Arthas was empowered, but so was Illidan. It was a good fight with Arthas winning because he was the better man when it came to melee combat.

Yeah makes sense to me. Just one note - Illidan wasn't the one who actually used the Eye on Icecrown :) . Sorry if I misread.

[Tularis]

Its just all those Illidan fans who couldn't dare see their favourite character get beaten by another. Never mind the fact that Illidan has spent the majority of his life running from someone at some point because deep down he is a melodramatic coward, but still... :P

Gul`dan was more powerful then Ner`zhul, but didn't Kil`jaedan amplify his powers some when he made him into the Lich King?

This argument is pretty moot anyway, I don't see why people are still having it. Arthas won, end of story. Some people may claim that Illidan was tired by then, but as Scythe said, Arthas had spent the majority of his time fighting for his life as God knows what tried to kill him. Illidan was empowered, Arthas was empowered. Whatever happened, Arthas won, and really he should have killed Illidan right there and then.

[Kenzuki]

Um Illidan did so use the Eye of Sargeras, he had Naga Sirens channeling it with him, but he was still using it. Also since you brought the Illidan had Fel damage into the argument, I'll complete it with saying Frostmourne does Fel damage as well! Not only that but Frostmourne wounds people and it drains your stamina as well, and it heals Arthas for however much damage he strikes with it! Not only that it's a Ghostouch weapon meaning it can hit incorporal creatures such as Banshees, ghosts, spirits, whatever have you. In short it's just about the most uber weapon on Azeroth. The Blades of Azzinoth are just named magical weapons, while Frostmourne is a Major Artifact to show you the difference in powers.

[Timolas]

Um Illidan did so use the Eye of Sargeras, he had Naga Sirens channeling it with him, but he was still using it. Also since you brought the Illidan had Fel damage into the argument, I'll complete it with saying Frostmourne does Fel damage as well! Not only that but Frostmourne wounds people and it drains your stamina as well, and it heals Arthas for however much damage he strikes with it! Not only that it's a Ghostouch weapon meaning it can hit incorporal creatures such as Banshees, ghosts, spirits, whatever have you. In short it's just about the most uber weapon on Azeroth. The Blades of Azzinoth are just named magical weapons, while Frostmourne is a Major Artifact to show you the difference in powers.

Yeah we know... nobody said Illidan could have beaten Arthas. The debate kind of ended awhile ago...
And Tularis.. dont start with your Illidan is noob crap. We know he isnt. And thats off topic, AND its meaningless because the arguement is over. So preach about how you hate Illidan in your own topic plx.

[Kenzuki]

Yeah we know... nobody said Illidan could have beaten Arthas. The debate kind of ended awhile ago...
And Tularis.. dont start with your Illidan is noob crap. We know he isnt. And thats off topic, AND its meaningless because the arguement is over. So preach about how you hate Illidan in your own topic plx.

He didn't claim Illidan was a noob, he just said that Illidan spent most of his time in the games running from people, which he did. And he is sort of meladramatic, because right after he's free he goes off by himself and makes a little speech like "I'll show my brother, the demons have no control over me." And then he goes off and becomes a demon himself. :D

[ScytheRexx]

He didn't claim Illidan was a noob, he just said that Illidan spent most of his time in the games running from people, which he did. And he is sort of meladramatic, because right after he's free he goes off by himself and makes a little speech like "I'll show my brother, the demons have no control over me." And then he goes off and becomes a demon himself. :D

haha not only that, but he becomes that errand boy for the second worst demon in the universe, Kil'jaeden.

Poor Illidan.

[Kerrah]

haha not only that, but he becomes that errand boy for the second worst demon in the universe, Kil'jaeden.
Second worst and most traitorous.

Poor Illidan indeed.

[Tularis]

Timolas, how could you hurt my feelings like that. I thought we had something special man :(

Considering how this thread in part is about Illidan and his defeat to Arthas, I wouldn't say its too off-topic what I said about him, considering the oinly reason he fought Arthas at all was because of his mannerisms. You just don't like how I don't like Illidan, which is far enough; its good to be passionate about some characters, shows a good storyline and a world you really care about. What you shouldn't do is put words in someone elses mouth to make an argument. Not once have I ever said anywhere he was a noob; I merely point out reasons why I don't like him, and they are reasons that are true and factual. Illidan-lovers are able to look past these faults and focus on his good mannerisms, which is fair enough considering pretty much every character has something that others can nitpick on. I on the otherhand can not when it comes to Illidan.

Secondly, I have an opinion and I like voicing it, and one should never be insulted for having a decent opinion. In other words, if you don't like me talking about Illidan in a bad way, tough. But making me out to be one of those idiots who post on the WoW forums about noobs and various other arguments is completely wrong, because I think you'll find that the majority of my posts are of some intelligence and I tend to have a good reason for not liking a character.

So, continue on ;)

[Timolas]

Timolas, how could you hurt my feelings like that. I thought we had something special man :(

Considering how this thread in part is about Illidan and his defeat to Arthas, I wouldn't say its too off-topic what I said about him, considering the oinly reason he fought Arthas at all was because of his mannerisms. You just don't like how I don't like Illidan, which is far enough; its good to be passionate about some characters, shows a good storyline and a world you really care about. What you shouldn't do is put words in someone elses mouth to make an argument. Not once have I ever said anywhere he was a noob; I merely point out reasons why I don't like him, and they are reasons that are true and factual. Illidan-lovers are able to look past these faults and focus on his good mannerisms, which is fair enough considering pretty much every character has something that others can nitpick on. I on the otherhand can not when it comes to Illidan.

Secondly, I have an opinion and I like voicing it, and one should never be insulted for having a decent opinion. In other words, if you don't like me talking about Illidan in a bad way, tough. But making me out to be one of those idiots who post on the WoW forums about noobs and various other arguments is completely wrong, because I think you'll find that the majority of my posts are of some intelligence and I tend to have a good reason for not liking a character.

So, continue on ;)

I didnt insult you; I just perhaps a bit too roughly pointed out that insulting Illidan at this point of the topic was uncalled for and unecessary - since it was off topic. Sorry if I sounded a little harsh, we are all entitled to our own opinions, I didnt mean you are not entitled to yours. Just that it ticks me off that so many people persistently whine about Illidan this and Illidan that, and it gets annoying when he is a character you like.

EDIT: Illidan never really ran from Maiev.. he was more like he couldn't be bothered to stay and fight her openly. After all, on the Broken Isles when she was in open conflict with Illidan, she was nearly screwed over. Illidan just got the Eye and ignored them more than anything else to get the job done.
The only time he ever properly really ran was from Kil'jaeden, but if the lord of the Burning Legion wanted you dead I dont think you'd be the picture of arrogance.