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-   -   Garrosh is 'evil' but Grom isn't? (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=215923)

Hellscream1 04-17-2014 05:59 AM

Garrosh is 'evil' but Grom isn't?
 
Being a staunch Garrosh fan, despite his forced villainy in MoP, I've noticed a trend among posters.

Garrosh is hated and despised for his war against the Alliance, trying to commit genocide, breaking the Horde, ect. I can definitely see the differing points of view here. Especially since the writers made the forced mantra, "The Horde is family." to make people further hate Garrosh.

But my real question is, how can you hate Garrosh, but then praise Grom as a hero of the Horde? I always liked Grom. Always will. But I do not have a skewed outlook on his character. Grom -was- a bloodthirsty, genocidal maniac, who murdered children under Mannoroth's curse. You can call him a "hero" all you want, but, Garrosh was the bigger hero in my eyes.

You can bring up his "redemption" and how he saved the Orcish race. Sure. The blood curse sure as hell isn't mind control. Hours before the Thrall captured him, he was attempting to wipe out everything in his path, on another genocidal rampage. Even his death was selfish. "I have freed myself." Grom didn't give a damn about the Orcish race. No, he only cared about him and himself only during his final seconds.

Grom fell into corruption -twice- just for his massive ego and pride alone. He is no different than Garrosh. Both are going to be forced into a corner. Both are going to resort to drastic measures to win. Garrosh - Sha. Grom - demon blood, just like he did in Ashenvale.

The point of this is to understand why people whitewash Grom into being a saint, but then call Garrosh evil? It does not make sense to me.

I like both characters. Garrosh is my all time favorite WoW character. I am unbiased in my views though.

Grom had no visions of grandeur for his people. He didn't want the Horde to prosper at all, unlike Garrosh. Everything he did was for the greater good of the Orcish race, and not selfish impulse urges.

Jon Targaryen 04-17-2014 06:08 AM

I think they're both disgusting. Does that make my outlook un-skewed in your opinion?

Hellscream1 04-17-2014 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen (Post 1104751)
I think they're both disgusting. Does that make my outlook un-skewed in your opinion?


Should of been more clear. This is pointed at Horde players that revere Grom, not Alliance. I'm pretty sure you hate him plenty.

Stormcaller 04-17-2014 07:04 AM

The thing with Grom is that he is generally considered a far better character from a writing standpoint. He was always consistent in his characterisation compared to Garrosh who has bounced around massively from a melancholic whiner, to a honourable if aggressive warrior and finally saturday morning cartoon villain since he was introduced.

Praising Grom as a hero is the equivalent of people who try and call Garithos, Sylvanas or Garrosh 'good' characters and is absolutely a disservice to why he's a good character. Grom is an anti-hero at best from most of the Horde's perspective and a villain from almost every Alliance perspective.

Grom was unapologetic in his selfishness but accepted fault and constantly worked for himself and his clan, an enemy was a thing to be defeated, and possibly respected. and hardships were a thing to be overcome and that was it.

Garrosh however is more frustrating because he believes himself in the right no matter what, an enemy is a thing to be hated, reviled and crushed so that it may never rise again and hardships are the fault of the despised enemy.

Perhaps I speak only for myself here but Grom can be seen as 'better' in the sense that he is a lighter shade of a still quite dark grey because a lot of what he did could be chalked up to pragmatism.

-Drank Demon Blood, because it was going to happen anyhow. Drinking first just reminded everyone that he and his clan were powerful, even without Gul'dan's backing.
-Drank again in Ashenvale because it was the only possible way to fight back at the Night Elves and Cenarius in their own forests with even a chance of coming out alive.

Garrosh is impracticality incarnate though, he bullied and alienated allies because of his unwavering and impossible vision. Was a hypocrite in abusing corruptive powers but believed it was ok because they weren't the same corruptive powers that screwed his people up last time and was generally an asshole to people because he believed himself superior.

C9H20 04-17-2014 07:32 AM

I think you are confusing liking Grom as a character and liking Grom as a person.

As a character, Grom is phenomenal. Possibly one of the best Blizzard ever wrote, and here is why. I think the key component of the character, if we disregard his immense badassitude, was his death and how he reacted in his final moments. Though I will mention that Grom pulled off the "grizzled badass" shtick effortlessly, and he absolutely oozed that style. Simply put, that badass flavor he carried suited him and was never overpowering like in some newer characters. He didn't carry some magical blade, he carried a simple axe. He isn't blessed by gods or magic, he is just a good fighter. He flew into fits or rage but could also control it when needed... and his ambiguous history as a war veteran was well done as well, it haunted him but he never truly changed either, not until the end at least.
Another important aspect is that all this characterization was naturally transmitted to us, through small character interactions and stylistic choices. It didn't tire us, it wasn't showed in our mouth by Mr. Exposition, but the story slowly built this image of Grom for us. It was very organic and it just feels better.

All of that is important because it prepared Grom as a character for his final test, his final moment. All of that, his past as an Old Horde butcher, his attempts at moderation, the inner struggles, the second fall to Mannoroth... it was all build-up to that final confrontation with Mannoroth.

And that confrontation is important because of what Mannoroth said, what his words represented:

"The boy believed you could be saved... But he didn't know, what burns within your soul... when in your heart, you know, we are the same!"

That and his previous claim over the whole orcish race invites Grommash to embrace the role of a mindless demonic berserker. Think about it, had Grommash stood down before Mannoroth, had he agreed to what the other was saying he would have been granted a position as a demonic lieutenant, leading a horde of fel pumped orcs across a thousand bloody battlefields, forever. You'd think that would be a dream to an orc Grom appears to be, during his Ashenvale times.

But he rejects that notion, screams bloody defiance and charges into Mannoroth, killing both. In that one gesture he refused all of the above, all of the bad things he did, which he could still do, he rejected there in the end. It is an immensely powerful storytelling moment, arguably the most powerful in Warcraft history. All of the build-up, all of the failures, the uncertainties of Grom's life story lead to that point, that climax. And boy is it ever so satisfying to see him reject all his inner demons (so perfectly amalgamated in the figure of Mannoroth and his infernal offer). That is why he said he freed himself, because it was a victory over all the bad things that held him chained, him personally. It was a single act of defiance, but defiance against everything that made him a bad person, personified by Mannoroth and the future he saw them sharing.

So yeah, that is why people love Grom. Because he is an outstanding character, whereas Garrosh is a sad mess of a character failed by the authors (though I kinda feel sympathy over that). In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them. Well, our Grom was, alt!Grom has a chance to be an utter failure and a horrid attempt by Blizzard to milk a good character to ruin regardless of the fact that said character died.

SmokeBlader 04-17-2014 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 1104779)
In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them.

Fel pumped Grom imprisoned his troll allies while Garrosh straight up tried to kill them all.

*In By Demons be driven you find the trolls, from the Ashenvale missions, imprisoned in cages. :kawaii:

Menel'dirion 04-17-2014 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 1104779)
I think you are confusing liking Grom as a character and liking Grom as a person.

As a character, Grom is phenomenal. Possibly one of the best Blizzard ever wrote, and here is why. I think the key component of the character, if we disregard his immense badassitude, was his death and how he reacted in his final moments. Though I will mention that Grom pulled off the "grizzled badass" shtick effortlessly, and he absolutely oozed that style. Simply put, that badass flavor he carried suited him and was never overpowering like in some newer characters. He didn't carry some magical blade, he carried a simple axe. He isn't blessed by gods or magic, he is just a good fighter. He flew into fits or rage but could also control it when needed... and his ambiguous history as a war veteran was well done as well, it haunted him but he never truly changed either, not until the end at least.
Another important aspect is that all this characterization was naturally transmitted to us, through small character interactions and stylistic choices. It didn't tire us, it wasn't showed in our mouth by Mr. Exposition, but the story slowly built this image of Grom for us. It was very organic and it just feels better.

All of that is important because it prepared Grom as a character for his final test, his final moment. All of that, his past as an Old Horde butcher, his attempts at moderation, the inner struggles, the second fall to Mannoroth... it was all build-up to that final confrontation with Mannoroth.

And that confrontation is important because of what Mannoroth said, what his words represented:

"The boy believed you could be saved... But he didn't know, what burns within your soul... when in your heart, you know, we are the same!"

That and his previous claim over the whole orcish race invites Grommash to embrace the role of a mindless demonic berserker. Think about it, had Grommash stood down before Mannoroth, had he agreed to what the other was saying he would have been granted a position as a demonic lieutenant, leading a horde of fel pumped orcs across a thousand bloody battlefields, forever. You'd think that would be a dream to an orc Grom appears to be, during his Ashenvale times.

But he rejects that notion, screams bloody defiance and charges into Mannoroth, killing both. In that one gesture he refused all of the above, all of the bad things he did, which he could still do, he rejected there in the end. It is an immensely powerful storytelling moment, arguably the most powerful in Warcraft history. All of the build-up, all of the failures, the uncertainties of Grom's life story lead to that point, that climax. And boy is it ever so satisfying to see him reject all his inner demons (so perfectly amalgamated in the figure of Mannoroth and his infernal offer). That is why he said he freed himself, because it was a victory over all the bad things that held him chained, him personally. It was a single act of defiance, but defiance against everything that made him a bad person, personified by Mannoroth and the future he saw them sharing.

So yeah, that is why people love Grom. Because he is an outstanding character, whereas Garrosh is a sad mess of a character failed by the authors (though I kinda feel sympathy over that). In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them. Well, our Grom was, alt!Grom has a chance to be an utter failure and a horrid attempt by Blizzard to milk a good character to ruin regardless of the fact that said character died.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Tauren Paly 04-17-2014 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 1104779)
I think you are confusing liking Grom as a character and liking Grom as a person.

As a character, Grom is phenomenal. Possibly one of the best Blizzard ever wrote, and here is why. I think the key component of the character, if we disregard his immense badassitude, was his death and how he reacted in his final moments. Though I will mention that Grom pulled off the "grizzled badass" shtick effortlessly, and he absolutely oozed that style. Simply put, that badass flavor he carried suited him and was never overpowering like in some newer characters. He didn't carry some magical blade, he carried a simple axe. He isn't blessed by gods or magic, he is just a good fighter. He flew into fits or rage but could also control it when needed... and his ambiguous history as a war veteran was well done as well, it haunted him but he never truly changed either, not until the end at least.
Another important aspect is that all this characterization was naturally transmitted to us, through small character interactions and stylistic choices. It didn't tire us, it wasn't showed in our mouth by Mr. Exposition, but the story slowly built this image of Grom for us. It was very organic and it just feels better.

All of that is important because it prepared Grom as a character for his final test, his final moment. All of that, his past as an Old Horde butcher, his attempts at moderation, the inner struggles, the second fall to Mannoroth... it was all build-up to that final confrontation with Mannoroth.

And that confrontation is important because of what Mannoroth said, what his words represented:

"The boy believed you could be saved... But he didn't know, what burns within your soul... when in your heart, you know, we are the same!"

That and his previous claim over the whole orcish race invites Grommash to embrace the role of a mindless demonic berserker. Think about it, had Grommash stood down before Mannoroth, had he agreed to what the other was saying he would have been granted a position as a demonic lieutenant, leading a horde of fel pumped orcs across a thousand bloody battlefields, forever. You'd think that would be a dream to an orc Grom appears to be, during his Ashenvale times.

But he rejects that notion, screams bloody defiance and charges into Mannoroth, killing both. In that one gesture he refused all of the above, all of the bad things he did, which he could still do, he rejected there in the end. It is an immensely powerful storytelling moment, arguably the most powerful in Warcraft history. All of the build-up, all of the failures, the uncertainties of Grom's life story lead to that point, that climax. And boy is it ever so satisfying to see him reject all his inner demons (so perfectly amalgamated in the figure of Mannoroth and his infernal offer). That is why he said he freed himself, because it was a victory over all the bad things that held him chained, him personally. It was a single act of defiance, but defiance against everything that made him a bad person, personified by Mannoroth and the future he saw them sharing.

So yeah, that is why people love Grom. Because he is an outstanding character, whereas Garrosh is a sad mess of a character failed by the authors (though I kinda feel sympathy over that). In fact, Grom probably is a better person that Garrosh too, he had his flaws but he rejected them rather than embrace them. Well, our Grom was, alt!Grom has a chance to be an utter failure and a horrid attempt by Blizzard to milk a good character to ruin regardless of the fact that said character died.

Bloody well said dude.

I'm sick and tired of this perpetuated nonsense that all orcs need to be craven murderers and monsters. That is all Garrosh was, he was an embarrassment to Groms sacrifice, how grom stood against the creature that corrupted him, and killed him, taking his life with him, but showing that he did truly want to be free, and not made into the monster mannaroth would make him into.

This is why whats happened in the orcs story of late has just been such a depressing matter. The idiotic stance on how orcs needing to eb craven bullies and killers by those morons who don't understand what grom gave his life for, and claiming this just because Garrosh was groms son.

Garrosh represents nothing his father gave his life for, or the freedom Grom wanted.

Westlee 04-17-2014 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeBlader (Post 1104787)
Fel pumped Grom imprisoned his troll allies while Garrosh straight up tried to kill them all.

*In By Demons be driven you find the trolls, from the Ashenvale missions, imprisoned in cages. :kawaii:

Garrosh's troll allies were trying to kill him.

Krakhed 04-17-2014 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlee (Post 1104918)
Garrosh's troll allies were trying to kill him.

The death threats were pretty mutual at first, and Vol'jin only promised to do so after Garrosh was properly hated.

As for why Grom was better than Garrosh... Well, it's pretty much been outlined above.

In the end, he rejected all of the shit that Garrosh is doing.

I don't want this new Grommash to ruin that like Garrosh almost did. I don't even want this Grommash to express disappointment in Garrosh. He's not Garrosh's real dad.

Now, I'm wondering who Garrosh has sold out his people to for the chance to raise them as an Iron Horde army. Kairoz isn't a temporal taxi service, unless the Dragonmaw somehow take control of him...

In that case, I guess he could be a temporal taxi service. Still, chances are that Garrosh is being used.

Anasterian 04-17-2014 11:04 AM

Grom as we knew him was a seasoned old warrior humbled by defeat and nearly two decades being on the run/in hiding... and post-landing on Kalimdor he was being influenced increasingly by the returning Legion, which led to increased aggression and villainy.

Grom was no saint though. He became Warsong chieftain under "unknown" circumstances, butchered Draenei before and after he got the blood curse, slaughtered humans in the events of BtDP, drank the blood of Mannoroth twice, etc. Thing is... he did a lot of that when he was young.

Similarly, we see Garrosh relatively young and influenced by tales of glorious battle and death. When he threw off the shackles of doubt and shame he became much the hothead I figured Grom was in his younger days. Only problem with Garrosh is that Blizz was inconsistent regarding his characterization. Sometimes he was honorable and good leadership material... sometimes he was more craven and not good leadership material. In the end I figure he was much like Old Horde Grom was.

I suppose we'll see in WoD how young Grom acted.

Westlee 04-17-2014 11:14 AM

^ Don't ever use the word humbled to describe an orc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krakhed (Post 1104945)
The death threats were pretty mutual at first, and Vol'jin only promised to do so after Garrosh was properly hated.

No, they were trying to kill him. After the Darkspear overthrew his rule in the Echo Isles, the Darkspear were in open rebellion. Garrosh declared martial law (which is not a bad thing), and they reacted by killing their guards. How else is he supposed to react to that?

Khorram 04-17-2014 12:07 PM

Garrosh seemed to have lost his initial ideals and views - by the end of the expansion he just seems like a raving lunatic doing anything to get his way.

Grom is very similar, but those WERE his ways. He was steadfast and sure in his beliefs and did what he had to do with confidence. For that reason Grom is given a respect Garrosh isn't.

Shaman 04-17-2014 12:17 PM

Your father dabbled in powers beyond reckoning. Where is he... now?

SmokeBlader 04-17-2014 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarahmoo (Post 1105025)
Your father dabbled in powers beyond reckoning. Where is he... now?

Chillin in AU Draenor like in the good old days.

Westlee 04-17-2014 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarahmoo (Post 1105025)
Your father dabbled in powers beyond reckoning. Where is he... now?

"He had a national holiday dedicated to him."

JorgeAxe 04-17-2014 12:39 PM

Probably because Grom was a well written anti hero who ultimately redeemed himself despite his many flaws.

Garrosh was a failed attempt to ride on Grom's popularity, and promote FACUTOON CONFLUCT, in addition to being incredibly inconsistent.

Kynrind 04-17-2014 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgeAxe (Post 1105055)
Probably because Grom was a well written anti hero who ultimately redeemed himself despite his many flaws.

Garrosh was a failed attempt to ride on Grom's popularity, and promote FACUTOON CONFLUCT, in addition to being incredibly inconsistent.



I wouldn't call how Grom died as redemption. Maybe the start of it, but it does not come close to overcoming the deeds he did before he died.

Genesis 04-17-2014 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kynrind (Post 1105232)
I wouldn't call how Grom died as redemption. Maybe the start of it, but it does not come close to overcoming the deeds he did before he died.

Thrall is a redeemer because he freed the orcs from the interment camps and gave them a chance for a fresh start. Grom is a redeemer in his own right for freeing the orcs from their blood ties to the Burning Legion at the cost of his own life. "Redemption" does not mean to make perma-good. With 'redeem' we have the following definitions usually as the primary definition:
Quote:

compensate for the faults or bad aspects of (something).
Quote:

to make (something that is bad, unpleasant, etc.) better or more acceptable
These definitions suggest that to redeem does not require for the compensation fully makes up for the faults or bad aspects.

It's like with Vader's sacrifice at the end of Return of the Jedi. At the end of the day, no one questions that Anakin Skywalker was a bastard who performed many horrendous evils, but we are captivated by his story because he chose to die as a better person. It does not erase his many evils or past sins, but it was a triumphant moment. He wanted to die as Anakin Skywalker and not as Darth Vader. He proved to himself that he did have goodness. And Grom proved to himself that he could overcome the personal demons that affected him.

Westlee 04-17-2014 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis (Post 1105254)
These definitions suggest that to redeem does not require for the compensation fully makes up for the faults or bad aspects.

So would that mean the Alliance were redeemers, since they gave the Horde a much needed beat-down and forced them to sit on their hands for a decade or two?

Kynrind 04-17-2014 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis (Post 1105254)
Thrall is a redeemer because he freed the orcs from the interment camps and gave them a chance for a fresh start. Grom is a redeemer in his own right for freeing the orcs from their blood ties to the Burning Legion at the cost of his own life. "Redemption" does not mean to make perma-good. With 'redeem' we have the following definitions usually as the primary definition:

These definitions suggest that to redeem does not require for the compensation fully makes up for the faults or bad aspects.

It's like with Vader's sacrifice at the end of Return of the Jedi. At the end of the day, no one questions that Anakin Skywalker was a bastard who performed many horrendous evils, but we are captivated by his story because he chose to die as a better person. It does not erase his many evils or past sins, but it was a triumphant moment. He wanted to die as Anakin Skywalker and not as Darth Vader. He proved to himself that he did have goodness. And Grom proved to himself that he could overcome the personal demons that affected him.

Grom's account isn't paid in full. Not even close to it. One good act cannot redeem someone, nor should it. The orcs might consider him redeemed, but I don't see how anyone else can. He still needed to answer for the actions he did, all of the death and destruction he and his actions caused.

Just like Vader. I don't think the one act he did, helping kill the Emperor made everyone else like or love him. To most, he was rightfully reviled and hated. A few people might have considered him redeemed, but the rest? No.

Genesis 04-17-2014 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westlee (Post 1105259)
So would that mean the Alliance were redeemers, since they gave the Horde a much needed beat-down and forced them to sit on their hands for a decade or two?

To some degree, yes, but orcs were ultimately the agents of their own redemption, since Thrall freed the orcs and rekindled their spirits with shamanism and Grommash severed their blood ties with Mannoroth.

Westlee 04-17-2014 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis (Post 1105270)
To some degree, yes, but orcs were ultimately the agents of their own redemption, since Thrall freed the orcs and rekindled their spirits with shamanism and Grommash severed their blood ties with Mannoroth.

Would the fact that Thrall/Garrosh got most of them killed make them redeemers?

Genesis 04-17-2014 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kynrind (Post 1105268)
Grom's account isn't paid in full. Not even close to it.

Of course not, but I'm not sure if most reasonable people would, even among the Horde fans.

Quote:

One good act cannot redeem someone, nor should it.
I do think he redeemed himself, but again - not in full - but redemption does not have be in full. In fact, it usually isn't by the standard definition. ;)

Quote:

The orcs might consider him redeemed, but I don't see how anyone else can. He still needed to answer for the actions he did, all of the death and destruction he and his actions caused.
Okay? The orcs are not demanding that the world venerate Grom as a grand redeemer. The orcs choose to honor Grommash for the good he did for orc-kind. I'm also of the opinion that in order to fully honor Grom's redemption, it's necessary to also fully recognize the sins he committed. His redemption is meaningless without understanding the weight of his sins.

Westlee 04-17-2014 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kynrind (Post 1105268)
Just like Vader. I don't think the one act he did, helping kill the Emperor made everyone else like or love him.

Only Luke Skywalker thinks his father was redeemed. The rest of the galaxy, well...



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