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  #126  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:16 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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Okay I woke up, glanced at this page and saw Alliance QQ. I'll get back here in 30 minutes once I've read everything. Should be fun.
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  #127  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:16 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Okay I woke up, glanced at this page and saw Fojar QQ. I'll get back here in 30 minutes once I've read everything. Should be fun.
Fixed !
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  #128  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:34 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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How does it stop the war? That's like saying that if FDR was assassinated in World War 2 then the war would suddenly be over.
... Because Garrosh who's the main instigator of the war right now and the SINGLE LEADER of the Horde will be dead, putting the Horde war machine to a hault? Besides, there will be Alliance forces in the Horde's capital city which maybe could play a role in stopping the war too? Just, you know, maybe.

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It's not an assumption. IGoD confirmed it.
Fair enough. Thrall gets the killing blow. But, honestly, it will be all the same to you who gets it because even if Blizzard made Varian kill Garrosh to make him look like a hero and make the Horde look like incompetent idiots for not being able to handle their own internal struggles, you still won't be satisfied and just find another reason to while like "But Varian didn't solo-raid Orgrimmar and didn't single-handedly kill Garrosh cause there were a bunch of people helping him!" or something equally retarded.

So it's all the same eventually anyway.

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We know that the Alliance can't make any tangible gains beyond bragging rights That is a fact on account of gameplay mechanics. So we know that something is going to happen to justify the Horde keeping all the territory that they've conquered and then some.
Again, stop jumping to conclusions.

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Yeah man, and as we all know, it's never been a major plot point for the Alliance and Horde war, nor is it an emotionally and symbolically important place for humanity. It's just a spit of land, right?
It's Forsaken's territory now. Rage and cry all you want, it won't change the fact that Lordaeron hasn't belonged to the Alliance in a long time.

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A treaty that we know will end up buttfucking the Alliance because the Horde can't actually lose any territory as a result of this.


Same song over and over again. Jeez man, you're like a broken record. Got anything new to say?

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Except the resolution to this conflict will ultimately come from inside the Horde, not because of anything that the Alliance does. The Alliance is playing foil to the Horde right now rather than being an active influence on the storyline.
Why are you so focused on one partilucar aspect instead of looking at the bigger picture? The Alliance getting unified and stronger than before, encroaching on Horde territory despite their main stronghold in the region being destroyed and raiding the Horde capital city... and you see this as the Alliance not taking part in the story? Does any action of the Alliance satisfy you anymore?

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Gotta love how obvious it is when you don't have an effective counterargument.
A counter-argument to what? I have to argue your random speculations and whatever other Horde-hate bullshit you could pull from your ass about events that haven't even happened yet and no one knows details about? I didn't realize that blind hatred for something for the sake of hating has to be presented with a counter-argument but even if I did try it would be pointless since arguing with you is like arguing with the wall.

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And yet they are. From the start of Cataclysm to the end of Mists of Pandaria, the Alliance could literally be replaced by any other faction on Azeroth and we'd have almost the exact same story.

YOU.DO.NOT.KNOW.THAT!
Seriously, stop always playing the victim, especially when things you know NOTHING about are involved.

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Because I can sense that Blizzard is really trying. Metzen is really trying. They want to succeed and they want everyone to be proud of their faction (well, except maybe Kosak.) They aren't always succeeding but the cool factor of invading Orgrimmar and killing Garrosh is still there, and it's something I want to participate in, and it's probably the coolest thing that's happened from an Alliance perspective since the final cutscene of WotLK.

That doesn't mean that I don't think that it can't be executed better and that doesn't mean that I think that things can't improve. I'll be right there smacking down Garrosh at the end of MoP and loving every second of it, but I don't see how his death is actually going to change anything, if not for lore reasons than for gameplay reasons, especially when it doesn't really address the root of the problem as far as Horde and Alliance relations go (hint: the problem begins with an "F" and ends with "orsaken.")
Well, there you go. You see a ray of light in the tunnel, that's good. Go by that. Pull the stick out of your ass for a second and start seeing the bright side of things, stop acting so butthurt all the time.

Anyway, I won't respond to you anymore since A) - As I already said, it would be like arguing to an inanimate object and it won't lead anywhere and B) - This is not what the thread is all about so I won't derail it anymore.
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  #129  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:45 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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So what happened to Theramore?

Did they abandon that from the sheer rage spilled when it was announced? It kind of needs to go down now to further Jaina's character...
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  #130  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:45 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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So what happened to Theramore?

Did they abandon that from the sheer rage spilled when it was announced?
It's still there, it's just a scenario now.
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  #131  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:47 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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It's still there, it's just a scenario now.
Oh I see. So Alliance still get to hang out there?

I'm guessing the severity of its "destruction" is going to be downplayed in the scenario.
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  #132  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:52 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Wait wait wait.

-Theramore will be destroyed in a way that makes the Horde look like baby-eating monsters: Obvious Horde bias.
-Players will get to lay siege to the capital of the Horde and murder the warchief: Obvious Horde bias.

What the fuck
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  #133  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:01 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Wait wait wait.

-Theramore will be destroyed in a way that makes the Horde look like baby-eating monsters: Obvious Horde bias.
-Players will get to lay siege to the capital of the Horde and murder the warchief: Obvious Horde bias.

What the fuck
Alliance players mentality.

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  #134  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:03 AM
Avon Avon is offline

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I agree with Fojar that killing Garrosh alone won't solve any of the alliance problems. Except for not having a warmonger at the head of the Horde. However I think it's a little early to pass judgement when we have so little information. Of course Cataclysm has made me so pessimistic I don't hold any hope that the story team will come up with anything else.
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  #135  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:09 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Wait wait wait.

-Theramore will be destroyed in a way that makes the Horde look like baby-eating monsters: Obvious Horde bias.
-Players will get to lay siege to the capital of the Horde and murder the warchief: Obvious Horde bias.

What the fuck
The problem is that killing Garrosh is being framed as doing the Horde a favor. Both out of game and in-game.

Besides, Horde raids get to kill him too, meaning we don't even know if the Alliance laying siege to Orgrimmar is canon.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #136  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:10 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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Doesn't killing Garrosh happen in the Trials of the High King? Which will be pre-MoP. So there will have to be a new Warchief or grand leader of the Horde in place for MoP.

Edit: Nevermind. That happens at the end of MoP.

But they said the Trials happen in 4.4 I am confused.

Last edited by Gadinhad; 03-19-2012 at 06:12 AM..
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  #137  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:13 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Avon View Post
I agree with Fojar that killing Garrosh alone won't solve any of the alliance problems. Except for not having a warmonger at the head of the Horde. However I think it's a little early to pass judgement when we have so little information. Of course Cataclysm has made me so pessimistic I don't hold any hope that the story team will come up with anything else.
Thrall's deepest desire is to lay down his weapons, bend over to Varian and say "Hello sailor".

You'll excuse me if I don't share your pessimism.
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  #138  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:15 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Thrall's deepest desire is to lay down his weapons, bend over to Varian and say "Hello sailor".

You'll excuse me if I don't share your pessimism.
And Varian's is apparently to put on a leash and gimp suit and be walked around Lordaeron's throne room by Sylvanas.
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  #139  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:19 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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It's possible for the Alliance to gain territory without it being shown in game. Especially since for now Blizzard has no plans on further changing the old world.

And unfortunately we all know the blind spot Thrall has in regard to the Forsaken. So unless they actually allow the bastard's character to grow by acknowledging what a failure the Forsaken are in the whole "let's redeem ourselves" thing, the Forsaken are just going to keep on torturing and killing all the humans and worgen they get their hands on, while Thrall orders his overseers to not tell him a damn thing about it.

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Couldn't you postpone this discussion until after Garrosh has been dealt with? How can you dismiss the whole story as pointless when the only thing we know is that Garrosh will die?
You know the phrase "a stitch in time saves nine"? Fojar's preemptive QQing is like that. Assuming they're still watching SoL for the lore discussions, it's better for the devs to see it now and think of what changes to make, than to be asked about it later, shrug, and say they haven't thought of that.

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So what happened to Theramore?

Did they abandon that from the sheer rage spilled when it was announced? It kind of needs to go down now to further Jaina's character...
Still happening. Aparently Chen is going to help the player liberate the place.

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Originally Posted by Killchrono View Post
Honestly, I think it'd be pretty cool if a shaman summons the spirit of Grom and gives Garrosh the most epic 'Reason You Suck' speech ever.
If Grom hadn't died, chances are he would have still been the violent ass he always was. I mean, come on, you can't think a clan called the Warsong wouldn't want to pick fights with the Alliance. It's not like Thrall complained about the Warsong in Ashenvale at the start of WoW.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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3) You can't leave the game.

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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #140  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:21 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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I realize that reserving judgment until we know what benefits the Alliance will gain from his death is wise, but I'll still say my piece.

It's near pointless. I said this before. Killing Garrosh actually helps out the Horde.

You can see it in the storyline.

You can see it on the official forums.

So Fojar is right in a way, if this is our huge moment for MoP and that makes us be "proud Orc Shamans" then that's sad. Does Blizzard think we're retarded?

I know, I know. We're going to get Alliance content in the expansion, but the Alliance NEEDS something atrocious to happen to the Horde. We want something to happen to you that makes you hate us.
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  #141  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:22 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You know the phrase "a stitch in time saves nine"? Fojar's preemptive QQing is like that. Assuming they're still watching SoL for the lore discussions, it's better for the devs to see it now and think of what changes to make, than to be asked about it later, shrug, and say they haven't thought of that.
And somehow I get the feeling that their solution would be to make the Garrosh raid Horde only. (Which would be fine provided the Alliance got to kill Sylvanas.)

That said, I like that Blizzard is giving us this opportunity at all and I like how they're pretty much outright saying "The Alliance are the good guys" particularly with the stuff Metzen said about Varian.
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  #142  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:24 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
And somehow I get the feeling that their solution would be to make the Garrosh raid Horde only. (Which would be fine provided the Alliance got to kill Sylvanas.)

That said, I like that Blizzard is giving us this opportunity at all and I like how they're pretty much outright saying "The Alliance are the good guys" particularly with the stuff Metzen said about Varian.
Sounds good.

The Horde get to kill a character they want to kill.
We Alliance get to kill a character we want to kill.

Now, that's fair and more like it.
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  #143  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:25 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Thrall's deepest desire is to lay down his weapons, bend over to Varian and say "Hello sailor".

You'll excuse me if I don't share your pessimism.
He never will act upon the desire. He never cared about the Warsong moving into Ashenvale after the events of WCIII, he brought in the Forsaken and didn't bother reining them in except with putting Korkon up everywhere so there would be no more rebellions, and assigns overseers who don't give a shit what the Forsaken are doing unless it's treasonous to the Horde.

As long as the Forsaken keep their plot armor - an immunity to the natural plot progression of Thrall/Hamuul/everyone else in the fucking Horde looking at them and realizing what a failure the orcish/tauren attempt at redeeming them is - no one can seriously think that Thrall gives a shit about the Alliance.

Because, Kellick, come on. Do you honestly think Thrall is going to notice the Sludge Fields without Sylvanas going "the warden was crazy we really didn't mean to work them to death lol" and him shrugging and accepting the explanation? Really? We don't even know if the Forsaken getting rid of (or hiding) their full-strength was under Thrall's orders or Garrosh's. That certainly says something about Thrall's balls if he can't even use his power as warchief to tell Sylvanas to shut up and stop being a bitch.

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And somehow I get the feeling that their solution would be to make the Garrosh raid Horde only. (Which would be fine provided the Alliance got to kill Sylvanas.)
Hell, you can just put in Sylvanas as one of the bosses in the raid, and justify her taking Garrosh's side by having Thrall tell her that she's not going to weasel her way out of anything this time around (for Horde side), and having Varian just straight out attack her without even acknowledging Thrall (for Alliance side). The val'kyr can be minibosses, a boss encounter unto themselves, or Sylvanas's adds.

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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia; 03-19-2012 at 06:34 AM..
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  #144  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:35 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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One, end game raids are almost always in the lore a mixed faction group of heroes. (ICC, Dragon Soul, ect) so I'm sure both the Horde and Alliance will be involved. On on the killing blow, here's Metzen's exact words:

"Garrosh's been a bad boy, and Thrall's gonna have to paddle him."
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  #145  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:36 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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One, end game raids are almost always in the lore a mixed faction group of heroes. (ICC, Dragon Soul, ect) so I'm sure both the Horde and Alliance will be involved. On on the killing blow, here's Metzen's exact words:

"Garrosh's been a bad boy, and Thrall's gonna have to paddle him."
That's a fucking disgusting quote.
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  #146  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:41 AM
Killchrono Killchrono is offline

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It's near pointless. I said this before. Killing Garrosh actually helps out the Horde.
So the alternative is let Garrosh live and let him fuck over the Alliance some more.

I don't get it. Alliance players have been wanting Garrosh dead for ages and now all you can say is 'it's not good enough' or 'it's helping the Horde.'

Yes, there are valid criticisms in your words, but at this point, with the defeatist attitude you're showing, I'm dead set convinced you guys are just enjoying wallowing in your sorrow.

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If Grom hadn't died, chances are he would have still been the violent ass he always was. I mean, come on, you can't think a clan called the Warsong wouldn't want to pick fights with the Alliance. It's not like Thrall complained about the Warsong in Ashenvale at the start of WoW.
Grom always knew he was a roid-raging retard. He just couldn't control himself because he was like a crack addict on a relapse. He knew it was wrong, but he couldn't bring himself to control his addiction.

Still, even if he only realized it fully in his dying throws, that's still enough for him to come back to Garrosh in spirit form and chew him out for repeating his mistakes.
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  #147  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:52 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
One, end game raids are almost always in the lore a mixed faction group of heroes. (ICC, Dragon Soul, ect) so I'm sure both the Horde and Alliance will be involved. On on the killing blow, here's Metzen's exact words:

"Garrosh's been a bad boy, and Thrall's gonna have to paddle him."
Thrall/Garrosh romance confirmed!

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Originally Posted by Killchrono View Post
So the alternative is let Garrosh live and let him fuck over the Alliance some more.

I don't get it. Alliance players have been wanting Garrosh dead for ages and now all you can say is 'it's not good enough' or 'it's helping the Horde.'

Yes, there are valid criticisms in your words, but at this point, with the defeatist attitude you're showing, I'm dead set convinced you guys are just enjoying wallowing in your sorrow.
The issue of who wants Garrosh or Sylvanas more dead basically falls upon whether the people in question care more about night elves or humans.

Quote:
Grom always knew he was a roid-raging retard. He just couldn't control himself because he was like a crack addict on a relapse. He knew it was wrong, but he couldn't bring himself to control his addiction.

Still, even if he only realized it fully in his dying throws, that's still enough for him to come back to Garrosh in spirit form and chew him out for repeating his mistakes.
Ah, true enough.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #148  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:53 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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What has he realistically done to the Alliance? Has he crippled us in any way, shape, or form? No. We are still strong. Very, very strong. So strong that we actually need the story to shit on us so Garrosh can compete with us.

Why would I want a character like that to die? This "victory" is a hollow one. It means NOTHING for the Alliance and you know it. There is no real damage done and he will be replaced with someone more effective at finishing the Alliance. We come away that day with ridding the Horde of a "bad man".

Who. Fucking. Cares.

Shit yeah I have a good ass reason to be upset. Forgive me if I want to bring upon misery and suffering on the Horde for once and actually make the Alliance revel in it. But of course, actual bad things happening to the Horde is a definite no-no.
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  #149  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:54 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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So the alternative is let Garrosh live and let him fuck over the Alliance some more.

I don't get it. Alliance players have been wanting Garrosh dead for ages and now all you can say is 'it's not good enough' or 'it's helping the Horde.'

Yes, there are valid criticisms in your words, but at this point, with the defeatist attitude you're showing, I'm dead set convinced you guys are just enjoying wallowing in your sorrow.
I think that when people said they wanted to kill Garrosh, they meant that they wanted to do it while Garrosh was still a member of the Horde. The way it looks now is that the Alliance only gets to participate in his death because the Horde lets them. That's not really a victory against the Horde.

To the Alliance, killing Garrosh now carries the same weight as killing Rend Blackhand. It loses its meaning when he becomes an enemy of the Horde as well, because now we're not striking out against the Horde, we're striking out against an enemy of the Horde.

Quote:
The issue of who wants Garrosh or Sylvanas more dead basically falls upon whether the people in question care more about night elves or humans.
Not to mention that according to Curll's notes, the Alliance fights Garrosh not for the sake of the Alliance, but for the sake of the Horde.
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Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
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  #150  
Old 03-19-2012, 06:56 AM
Gadinhad Gadinhad is offline

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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,825

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The Alliance wants a moment that makes us go: YES WE ARE ALLIANCE AND PROUD OF IT.

We also want that moment to make Horde go: Wow, fuck my life. This is a terrible blow to my faction that will have me reeling for a long time.

If that happens, there will be no complaining.
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