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Old 04-04-2012, 05:47 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Default Word of the day for faction leaders "occupation."

I presume you've all noticed how each army of the Alliance or Horde is only capable of going about and destroying/purging a city of all life when they do take over, I think this is rubbish because such behavior makes us no better then the random "threats" that we fight daily, while we are proclaimed heroic and what not.

Basically the most humane thing to do when taking over a city is to occupy it with troops and make use of the infrastructure and the native populace, while maintaining a strict military control of varying brutality depending on the circumstances (commander, race , general threat level).

I mean for goodness sakes not even the Naz!'s didn't go about wiping out every city they came across, how the hell can any faction do this and call itself heroic? Also ironically enough the only army which has so far been shown to occupy towns (well only 1 IIRC) rather then flat out annihilate them is the Forsaken's one, take from that what you will.

Last but definitely not the least is that occupation has huge storytelling potential, for example if Taurajo was occupied rather then massacred it could have given a chance for the following scenario to take place:

The tauren quest giver from pre-Cata knows that the threats looming over Taurajo are not over just because the humans have taken over, so he grudgingly, in broken common, asks the Alliance adventurer to help take care of the Quillboar, for example, this could cause people on both sides of the fence to realize that the other side is not so different giving depth to the war.
Or an overworked tauren brave turned forced laborer asks for some tiny bit of assistance from the questing Alliance player, sparking sympathy or drama if it turns out that it wasn't a harmless request.
While on the other side of the spectrum, the Alliance guards could ask for help in finding and crushing a budding resistance movement, for people who find that faction strife is their cup of tea.

I mean the possibilities are endless, I can just see so so many possible scenarios in my head, like the opposing faction going in to spark rebellion in the town, ala WWII undercover partisans, while in the end it could either end up in the town shaking off the oppressors or getting brutally oppressed after failing, the drama potential is huge either way.

And not only that, if occupation was the norm rather then the exception then the actual instances of massive brutality in which a whole town gets destroyed/outright massacred would make a huge boom inciting faction hate/drama on a whole new level compared to what we have now.

What are your thoughts on the matter?
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:50 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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To be fair, Lordaeron is more or less under occupation by Orgrimmar at the moment. Not merely in the Undercity, but all throughout Silverpine and into Hillsbrad and Gilneas; the Orcs are watching the Forsaken's every move.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:52 PM
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To be fair, Lordaeron is more or less under occupation by Orgrimmar at the moment. Not merely in the Undercity, but all throughout Silverpine and into Hillsbrad and Gilneas; the Orcs are watching the Forsaken's every move.
Don't forget Cantus' April Challenge.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:54 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Don't forget Cantus' April Challenge.
What of it? A thread about occupation over genocide; how is the Orcish occupation of the Lordaeron continent not relevant?
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:54 PM
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What of it? A thread about occupation over genocide; how is the Orcish occupation of the Lordaeron continent not relevant?
I'm just saiyan.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I'm just saiyan.
Right... Not that I don't appreciate you stalking me into a random thread, pointing out something completely irrelevant without contributing to the topic at hand, but... We really must stop meeting like this.

As for the OP;

The inherent problem I see is that Azeroth is a magical world. The only historical occupations I can think of in WoW have always ended with rebellion, with the underdog always having won and overthrown their occupeés.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:02 PM
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Right... Not that I don't appreciate you stalking me
Yeah man because this is such a huge website. The odds of seeing someone else in more than one thread are so small that if it happens they must be stalking you.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:07 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Yeah man because this is such a huge website. The odds of seeing someone else in more than one thread are so small that if it happens they must be stalking you.

Fojar, I'm so stalking you.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:10 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Fojar, quiet.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:11 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is online now

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah man because this is such a huge website. The odds of seeing someone else in more than one thread are so small that if it happens they must be stalking you.
Clearly you are a creepy stalker Fojar, there's no other explanation on a website with only 6~ active threads at the same time!
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:12 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
To be fair, Lordaeron is more or less under occupation by Orgrimmar at the moment. Not merely in the Undercity, but all throughout Silverpine and into Hillsbrad and Gilneas; the Orcs are watching the Forsaken's every move.
Yes it could be viewed like that but obviously that is not what I am talking about. In many ways those orcs are there to ensure stability in a part of the empire which did go trough a failed coup after all. They are allies who are not very aggressive towards the UC populace nor do they limit their personal freedoms or quality of "life" by any considerable margin, not at all if you take it in the context of Putres' crimes. Hell without those orcs they would have died during the Cata.
But most importantly it is not a story of occupying a hostile city.


As for all occupations ending with rebellion. Well first off there weren't many classical occupations to begin with so it's not like it was a tried and failed method. Secondly even if it's true, which we can't know as we don't know a lot of Azerothian history, then it is as silly as saying that one faction or the other can't defeat its opponent because historically neither faction ever succeeded to permanently put down the other.

But most important, by far, is the fact that a lot of good story could come of it.

Prime subject for this being Orgrimmar after the final raid of MoP.

Last edited by C9H20; 04-04-2012 at 06:15 PM..
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:15 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Prime subject for this being Orgrimmar after the final raid of MoP.
Or perhaps during. Depending on how you look at it, the city could be occupied by Garrosh, with the Horde and the Alliance both trying to liberate it from his grasp; albeit for different reasons. From the Horde p.o.v, it'd fit.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:19 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Or perhaps during. Depending on how you look at it, the city could be occupied by Garrosh, with the Horde and the Alliance both trying to liberate it from his grasp; albeit for different reasons. From the Horde p.o.v, it'd fit.
True enough.

And it could work, but I have severe doubts we will be questing in Garrosh occupied Orgrimmar prior to the raid.

If the Alliance took the city afterwards, not only would it make more sense then giving it back, but it would also allow both factions to experience the situation properly, as explained in the OP, and the event could be milked for all its worth.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:46 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Yeah, occupation would be great.

So would taking prisoners and having prisoner exchanges after combat.

And burying the people you do kill so the rotting bodies won't cause disease outbreaks.

Sadly, though, Blizzard went to the type of war that usually doesn't end without the complete surrender of the opposing side, despite the fact that the game medium ensures that neither the Alliance nor the Horde would actually be defeated.

Also, while the Forsaken were occupying Emberstone Village, do note that they were working the occupants to death and experimenting on them. The only reason they probably weren't just plain killed was probably because the val'kyr can't fly that quickly and because it probably wasn't that certain that they'd have adequate supply lines to bring the corpses to Tirisfal.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia; 04-04-2012 at 06:50 PM..
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:51 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Also, while the Forsaken were occupying Emberstone Village, do note that they were working the occupants to death and experimenting on them. The only reason they probably weren't just plain killed was probably because the val'kyr can't fly that quickly and because it probably wasn't that certain that they'd have adequate supply lines to bring the corpses to Tirisfal.
Still better then being outright killed.

Not to mention that it is silly to add another accusation based on what they might have done, it would be unacceptable in any court and it is unnecessarily loaded.
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:59 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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There is this Ogre town of some sort that got conquered by the Horde in Cataclysm. Some of the Ogres were enslaved. Does that count?
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:21 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
To be fair, Lordaeron is more or less under occupation by Orgrimmar at the moment. Not merely in the Undercity, but all throughout Silverpine and into Hillsbrad and Gilneas; the Orcs are watching the Forsaken's every move.
That's not an "official" occupation. The Horde is a closely united confederacy (maybe even federation), unlike the Alliance, though the warchief technically is in full right to move Orcish troops to the lands of Forsaken, political reasons for that notwithstanding. That's how the empires are kept in check: the "national minorities" with potential for independence are either turned against each other, or are overseen by the army stationed in the region.

Not that overseeing the Forsaken is a bad thing, given their penchant for unholy experiments.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:00 AM
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Gilneas City itself shouldn't be an occupation zone, but a spy battle akin to Cold War Berlin. Having an SI:7 versus Shattered Hand fight in the shadows of the city feels a bit more fulfilling (as to why no one's winning) than just having one side or the other keep bombing the hell out of the area.

In terms of smaller occupations, I definitely like the idea of having smaller Horde towns (Wetlands or Feralas maybe) become work camps as C9 mentioned. Maybe a few sympathetic quests (save collapsing slaves, chastise brutal camp leaders) versus the usual counter-espionage stuff (stop prison rebellions). Hell, you could even do some fun phasing things like go down into mine shafts that have collapsed and help workers out at the request of their fellow POWs.
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