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Old 04-01-2012, 08:49 AM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Blizzard mjbmitch's Stat Revamp

Over the years, the players have dealt with the introduction and deletion of several stats on their gear, such as Mp5, Attack Power and Mastery. I have no doubt that in MoP we will once again see a stat revamp; like always, the revamps initiated are very radical. I have a solution that will fix the long-term use of our stats on gear and make the game more balanced for both PvP and PvE.


1. Each stat-type needs a stat-budget
As we usually see with primary stats, intellect/strength/agility is spread across the board, regardless of armor-type (but dependent on item level). My solution will call for several different stat-budgets:

Primary-stat budget: The primary-stat budget will focus on allowing each armor-group to perform relatively equal compared to one another.
- Strength: Increases attack damage for warriors, death knights and paladins; increases damage mitigation for warrior, death knight and paladin tanks [in some way].
- Intellect: Increases spell power for paladins, shamans, druids, monks, priests, warlocks and mages.
- Agility: Increases attack damage for hunters, monks, rogues and shamans; increases damage mitigation for monk and druid tanks [in some way].


Damage-reduction budget: The unfair advantage of higher Armor (for plate wearers) will now be a thing of the past as lower armor groups will have more an Armor-like stat called "Resistance" which negates magical damage similarly to how Armor negates physical damage. Cloth will have the most Resistance, while plate wearers will have the least. At the end of the day, each armor-group will use the same damage-reduction budget (Armor + Resistance). Resistance can also open the way for magic-resistance tanks for caster bosses.
- Armor
- Resistance


Defensive-stat budget: The defensive-stat budget will allow anyone to have protection against physical and magical attacks through today's mitigation methods (parry and dodge) in addition to a new method called "Reflect". Similar to Resistance, Reflect aims to improve the defense of lower armor-groups' way to deal with damage (through a logical manner). Every armor-group will be able to successfully take a couple hits from a boss (a rogue may dodge the first attack, parry the second, until finally a tank grabs aggro).
- Parry
- Dodge: All classes are able to dodge; this will be more commonly found on gear.
- Reflect


Secondary-stat budget: Similar to the defensive-stat budget, the secondary-stat budget is used by all classes regardless of role, as each stat has a use to anyone. In today's game, the secondary-stat budget also uses several of the defensive-stats that have now formed the defensive-stat budget.
- Mastery
- Critical hit
- Haste
- Hit
- Expertise


Health budget: Originally, plate wearers (notably tanks) were reserved the largest health pools in the game; this was changed in Cataclysm where the health pools of any armor-group were more equal and each piece of armor had the same amount of Stamina as any other armor-group did. The health budget will function the same way it does today, only with a slight modification.
- Stamina: Health will only be gained through Stamina (aside from any talents and spell effects), which can only be found on armor pieces (cloak, helm, feet, belt, etc.; not including weapon, shield, trinket, necklace, ring, etc.).



2. Stats need to be universal across all races and classes
The bonus stats for certain classes and races are outdated and must not be used in order to further balance the game.


3. Stats need to be flattened
The item budgets described above will come into affect here. All gear needs some sort of standardized value that increases as a player levels and accomplishes harder tasks.

To make way for this change, the old item quality system will be reformed:

Poor
Basic
Adequate
Superior
Epic
Legendary


In addition, the stat-budget will affect all levels; here is an example of a level 1 cape; note that the cape's Armor/Resistance ratio is 80/20%; other capes will have ratios of 20/80%, 40/60% or vice-versa:



Here are two additional capes, one for a level 51 and the other for a level 85:





Here is a graph showing the iLevel for character levels 50 through 85:



As you may notice, level 80 heroic raid gear has an iLevel equivalent to a level 85's quest gear; if the iLevel on one's gear is less than the character's level, the stat effectiveness on the equipment will be decreased to its intended level use, plus 1 if the gear is heroic raid-leveled. Note that the iLevel of gear will always be the level of intended use plus any modifiers; regular dungeons, heroic dungeons, LFRs, regular raids, and heroic raids have modifiers of 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, respectively.


Notes:
- Spirit seems to be outdated and Blizzard will likely remove it for MoP.
- I haven't decided on how gemming and enchanting should work.


To be continued...

Last edited by mjbmitch; 04-07-2012 at 03:36 PM..
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:37 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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I stopped reading at your name.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:23 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I keep reading your name as mjmbitch
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:31 AM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Jesus Christ, I knew this would happen...
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:20 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I don't really like the defensive changes, melee needs more survivability because it will be closer to the fight. I also think it continues to make casters the bane of melee because they(melee) will have an even harder time surviving. Tanks are going to be the ones who are most interested in the stat, but the armor they need won't give them any. Casters shouldn't have the innate defensive ability of tanks and melee classes, because they can avoid damage by kiting.

Also the Block animation should stay. Just replace the dodge or parry animation with it for shield users.

I would like to see armor reduce spell damage and just have everything balanced around that.
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Old 04-01-2012, 01:06 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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If there is no spirit, then how will healers gain more mana regeneration?
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Old 04-01-2012, 02:36 PM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Spirit has already been discussed by Blizzard, and it seems like they are going to take the stat away and replace it with some sort of baseline ability for all healers to "regain x mana over y seconds".

The defensive changes are made to bring all armor groups closer together. Currently, non-tanks cannot withstand more than a hit from a boss, and hopefully these changes will allow them to maybe survive for two more. Tanks will be able to gain mitigation through their primary stat (similar to how strength currently gives parry) to allow for additional avoidance. Tanks, similar to other roles, will want to gem for their primary stat when they can. The defensive stats are like the icing on the cake for raiding, really.

It would be really nice to have raids where people will have to suffice getting hit once or twice while the tank scrambles to pull adds, recover from a fear, etc.

Edit: Erthad, your view on melee is exactly what I have in mind for all armor groups. Melee and ranged should both be receiving huge hits in the form of physical attacks and spells; if it is split equally between the two groups, then why should only melee receive the bonus defense?

Last edited by mjbmitch; 04-01-2012 at 02:42 PM..
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:12 AM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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I've updated the original post to show an example of an item with stat-budgets.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:14 PM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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I've updated the original post with more information on possible gear deflation, along with a graph detailing it.
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:40 PM
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I've updated the original post once more with additional items for comparison:





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Old 04-07-2012, 04:10 PM
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Just change stats +gooder and you'll safe yourself a lot of time.
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Old 04-07-2012, 05:06 PM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
Just change stats +gooder and you'll safe yourself a lot of time.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or just haven't taken the time to post a carefully crafted suggestion...
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Old 04-07-2012, 05:51 PM
Lowtide Lowtide is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbmitch View Post
I'm not sure if you're trolling or just haven't taken the time to post a carefully crafted suggestion...
Both to be honest

I get the feeling you add a lot more bloat than already exists. Also you double dip a lot while creating nothing really new or exciting.
In detail:

You want to penalize plate classes in their defense. At the same time you add strength as mitigator. If the DK mastery would stay as it is, they'd be unstoppable in every melee centric encounter.

For the leather tanks, I assume they'll get a stance which will multiply their armor? At the same time they're leather, so their Resistance is much higher than that of a plate class PLUS the additional mitigation through agility. Why pick anything else as a tank then anyway?

Are the avoidance skills still softcapped to cause diminishing returns at certain values? What's the value? If it's still 15%, it's pretty pointless for non tanking classes. If it can go higher, you'll have to design individual softcaps to individual classes or we'll end up with another of my Rogue twinks tanking better than a Warrior

I see you also ditched resilience. Say, what stops a Heroic raiding Druid or Monk from switching to the tank role and just dance on the corpses of everyone?

Agility and Intelligence do nothing besides giving additional damage/healing to DPS/healer classes? My Resto shaman would be pretty pissed to see all his crit disappear and force him to make even more decisions and theorycraft. The same probably for Warrior who also enjoy/rely on crit for many abilities.
When magic avoidance suddenly becomes important, you add even more decisions/force constant reforging. Unless you want to revamp reforging as well somehow.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:16 PM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
Both to be honest

I get the feeling you add a lot more bloat than already exists. Also you double dip a lot while creating nothing really new or exciting.
In detail:

You want to penalize plate classes in their defense. At the same time you add strength as mitigator. If the DK mastery would stay as it is, they'd be unstoppable in every melee centric encounter.

For the leather tanks, I assume they'll get a stance which will multiply their armor? At the same time they're leather, so their Resistance is much higher than that of a plate class PLUS the additional mitigation through agility. Why pick anything else as a tank then anyway?

Are the avoidance skills still softcapped to cause diminishing returns at certain values? What's the value? If it's still 15%, it's pretty pointless for non tanking classes. If it can go higher, you'll have to design individual softcaps to individual classes or we'll end up with another of my Rogue twinks tanking better than a Warrior

I see you also ditched resilience. Say, what stops a Heroic raiding Druid or Monk from switching to the tank role and just dance on the corpses of everyone?

Agility and Intelligence do nothing besides giving additional damage/healing to DPS/healer classes? My Resto shaman would be pretty pissed to see all his crit disappear and force him to make even more decisions and theorycraft. The same probably for Warrior who also enjoy/rely on crit for many abilities.
When magic avoidance suddenly becomes important, you add even more decisions/force constant reforging. Unless you want to revamp reforging as well somehow.
To address your concerns, I have not even though about Mastery.

Armor and Resistance will be balanced similar to the passive mitigation and active mitigation that has been the discussion for a while now; a Death Knight will not have as much Resistance on his armor than leather-wearers will have, but it has a form of active mitigation: Anti-Magic Shield and Dark Simulacrum.

To be continued...
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:27 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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If the cloth classes are being given more defense I think that means they would need to lose a lot of kiting. Paladins would suck terribly against them.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:18 AM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Typing this on an iPad; sorry for any errors.

Warriors and Death Knights look pretty good for active mitigation for spell damage (maybe with a few tweaks for Death Knights). Druids might need some of their moves altered like Stoneskin.

More effectiveness in spells and abilities is every player's goal of getting at; the offensive stats wiil (like they currently do) will offer bonus manage and healing, depending on the stat. In order to equalize the role of the offensive stats, Agility will no longer provide Critical Hit Rating or Dodge Rating (making the possibility of having a Rogue dodge-tank equal to it happening to a Priest).

Defensive stats will help everyone; it's like how health can greatly benefit everyone. Every once in a while my Hunter comes across the most recent year's Brewfest Stamina trinket and I can't help myself but to grab it: 6,000 health is a huge improvement!

I still think that Paladins need some sort of gap-closer, so they would definitely receive one if these changes go into effect; something like Hammer of Justice, except with a slow, would suffice.

Cloth casters won't exactly be much more powerful against melee from the way they are now since the only things they are gaining is Resistance and a slight amount of mitigation which will ultimately have diminishing returns in PvP.

Last edited by mjbmitch; 04-08-2012 at 09:24 AM..
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:41 AM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
Both to be honest

I get the feeling you add a lot more bloat than already exists. Also you double dip a lot while creating nothing really new or exciting.
In detail:

You want to penalize plate classes in their defense. At the same time you add strength as mitigator. If the DK mastery would stay as it is, they'd be unstoppable in every melee centric encounter.

For the leather tanks, I assume they'll get a stance which will multiply their armor? At the same time they're leather, so their Resistance is much higher than that of a plate class PLUS the additional mitigation through agility. Why pick anything else as a tank then anyway?

Are the avoidance skills still softcapped to cause diminishing returns at certain values? What's the value? If it's still 15%, it's pretty pointless for non tanking classes. If it can go higher, you'll have to design individual softcaps to individual classes or we'll end up with another of my Rogue twinks tanking better than a Warrior

I see you also ditched resilience. Say, what stops a Heroic raiding Druid or Monk from switching to the tank role and just dance on the corpses of everyone?

Agility and Intelligence do nothing besides giving additional damage/healing to DPS/healer classes? My Resto shaman would be pretty pissed to see all his crit disappear and force him to make even more decisions and theorycraft. The same probably for Warrior who also enjoy/rely on crit for many abilities.
When magic avoidance suddenly becomes important, you add even more decisions/force constant reforging. Unless you want to revamp reforging as well somehow.
Druids will not have a very powerful form of active mitigation for spell damage (if any) unlike plate-wearers, who all have some form of it.

I have not planned the placement of Resilience, but can already tell you that (if Armor and Resistance are more linear) today's Resilience will come in two forms: one mitigating player-spell damage and the other mitigating player-physical damage; the stats will essentially replace Armor and Resilience.

If any stat bonus is given outside of what normally benefits from it (Parry Rating from Strength), it will potentially stay through talents. I have not heard anything about Restoration Shamans receiving Critical Hit Rating through Intellect, but I can already tell you that if it currently occurs now, it can stay. Bonuses that are tied to stats for everyone (Dodge Rating from Agility) will not exist universally (if at all -- with the exceptions of talents).
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:30 AM
Nerub29 Nerub29 is offline

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Will you be posting this in the official forums?
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:22 AM
Lowtide Lowtide is offline

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I'm sorry, with every post your ideas get worse, more confusing and more and more bloated. I don't get the feeling you have thought this through at all.
And with all dear respect, if you really are not aware that intelligence provides spell crit and that tanks (except for Druids) do not get dodge via agility ... lay this off

Or rework it entirely into something resembling some sort of framework first. This is a mess.

Oh and there's Spirit on MoP items.

Oh and ... a stamina trinket? On a hunter?
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:27 AM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
I'm sorry, with every post your ideas get worse, more confusing and more and more bloated. I don't get the feeling you have thought this through at all.
And with all dear respect, if you really are not aware that intelligence provides spell crit and that tanks (except for Druids) do not get dodge via agility ... lay this off

Or rework it entirely into something resembling some sort of framework first. This is a mess.

Oh and there's Spirit on MoP items.

Oh and ... a stamina trinket? On a hunter?
I was aware that tanks (excluding Druids) do not gain any avoidance from Agility. I was unaware that Intellect gave Critical Hit Rating.

I'll try to address Spirit soon.

Like I said, anyone will want 6,000 health (this was in WotLK where people had around 20,000 - 40,000); it was pretty attractive to me because it gave me a huge boost in survival.

This topic is a crash-test for when I actually post this on the official forums; thanks to you, Lowtide, I will address any issues with my idea. It may not seem like it, but I have spent a great deal of time on crafting this idea; originally I was split with a completely different vision, but that's an entirely different story...
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:50 AM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Okay, here is what stats will look like:

Strength: Increases attack power for Warriors, Death Knights, and Retribution and Protection Paladins.
Intellect: Increases spell power for Holy Paladins, Restoration and Elemental Shamans, Mistweaver Monks, Restoration and Balance Druids, Mages, Priests and Warlocks.
Agility: Increases attack power for Enhancement Shamans, Brewmaster and Windwalker Monks, Feral and Guardian Druids, Hunters and Rogues.

Stamina: Increases health by 14.

Critical Hit Rating: Increases chance to deal a critical hit with attacks and heals.
Hit Rating: Increases chance to hit an enemy.
Expertise Rating: Decreases chance to be dodged, parried, or reflected.
Haste Rating: Increases casting and attack speed.

Parry Rating: Increases chance to parry an enemy's melee attack.
Dodge Rating: Increases chance to dodge an enemy's attack.
Reflect Rating: Increases chance to reflect an enemy's spell.

Armor: Decreases damage from physical damage.
Resistance: Decreases damage from spell damage.

Mastery: ...

To be continued...
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