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  #1  
Old 04-12-2012, 06:40 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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  #2  
Old 04-12-2012, 07:00 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Dustin has terrible, terrible taste in music.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:52 PM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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P Vs Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUgXg...feature=relmfu

T Vs Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-tNF...feature=relmfu

Some Heart of the Swarm Alpha matches, shown at Blizzard.

The new units are really awesome.
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  #4  
Old 06-13-2012, 04:00 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Zerg looks scary. Charging Ultras and pulling Vipers is going to kill everything.

The matches are obviously staged.

And why haven't the Warhounds gotten a cool model yet!? It's soooooo hideous.
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  #5  
Old 06-13-2012, 04:10 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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First, they say they won'y put lurker in-game because they don't like recycling (no matter the unit was cut off the campaign, so it only appears on custom maps).

Then, they recycle campaign's vulture's spider mine.

I want my lurker, Blizzard.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:14 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
First, they say they won'y put lurker in-game because they don't like recycling (no matter the unit was cut off the campaign, so it only appears on custom maps).

Then, they recycle campaign's vulture's spider mine.

I want my lurker, Blizzard.
You never do stop complaining, do you?
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  #7  
Old 06-13-2012, 04:29 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
You never do stop complaining, do you?
While I sleep.

There, I just dream-complain.

Now seriously, zerg need a long range anti-armor unit. Right now, it's either the infestor's fungal growth (which isn't long range, so long range units laugh at his 150 gas face) or spamming broodlings, zerglings or hydralisks and hope splash doesn't rape them.

The Viper will help against big armored units like tanks and colossi, but common armored units like stalkers and marauders have no decent counter from zerg, aside from the already mentioned fg and massed light units.

The lurker would fix this perfectly, while giving zerg their first unit that could attack actively while cloaked (they have none now, and the baneling attacks passively (no move + no range = passive)).

But yeah, you won't understand any of this unless you play league usually (and in a decent level).
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  #8  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:34 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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The Swarm Host is the new Lurker.

And the Lurker was never an anti-armored unit (except briefly in the SC2 beta), and it has a splash attack. it wouldn't make a good anti-armored unit... and er... yeah, Hydralisks and Zerglings counter Stalkers and Marauders fine. Especially with Fungal Growth support which is long-range. (Well longer-range than the Stalkers and Marauders.)

Besides that... uhh... the new mine ISN'T just the SC1 spider-mine.

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The matches are obviously staged.
I don't think so... o.o

I don't see why they'd need to stage them.
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  #9  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:38 PM
handclaw handclaw is offline


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The "spider-mine" will surely get a new model anyway. It doesn't have any team color as far as I can tell.
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  #10  
Old 06-15-2012, 01:39 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I don't think so... o.o

I don't see why they'd need to stage them.
Because they were just showcasing the new units, the Terran player didn't even try to counter the Vipers, not a single Viking was made.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Because they were just showcasing the new units, the Terran player didn't even try to counter the Vipers, not a single Viking was made.
And yet, the warhound has been not seen.
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  #12  
Old 06-15-2012, 02:37 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
And yet, the warhound has been not seen.
Because it has no use vs Zerg. They were trying to show what the units would be used for.
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  #13  
Old 06-15-2012, 02:44 PM
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So why didn't they make one match where they could have been used? Widow Mines, Warhounds and Combat Hellions are all viable against protoss afaik. ;P

You know, if it is staged, they can prepare stuff from beforehand. So they could have choosen two matchups where all units could have been shown.
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
So why didn't they make one match where they could have been used? Widow Mines, Warhounds and Combat Hellions are all viable against protoss afaik. ;P

You know, if it is staged, they can prepare stuff from beforehand. So they could have choosen two matchups where all units could have been shown.
They may have wanted to use Zerg to go along with the expansion.
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2012, 03:29 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
The Swarm Host is the new Lurker.

And the Lurker was never an anti-armored unit (except briefly in the SC2 beta), and it has a splash attack. it wouldn't make a good anti-armored unit... and er... yeah, Hydralisks and Zerglings counter Stalkers and Marauders fine. Especially with Fungal Growth support which is long-range. (Well longer-range than the Stalkers and Marauders.)

Besides that... uhh... the new mine ISN'T just the SC1 spider-mine.
Who said the Lurker had to be a clone from that of SC1? The proposed stats are the ones it had during the SC2 beta (and the editor), not the ones from SC:BW.

And that's not splash, it's line AOE, like the hellion's attack. Don't mix them.

Your "fungal is good" gets screwed against tanks and colossi, that exterminate those units outranging the fungal growth. Marauders and Stalkers never go alone unless it's harass or a bronze match.

The swarm host isn't the new lurker because it doesn't attack, it spawns melee units that have to run to the enemy. I would love to see how you attack a cliff with swarm hosts; oh, you can't.

Also, I was saying the mine has the model from the vulture's spider mine of the WoL campaign, not that it shares the mechanic.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:38 PM
Malygos Malygos is offline

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Wouldn't tanks blow up lurkers anyway? All that happens is that Terran players would have to save energy for scanner sweep rather than spam mulemulemulemulemule.
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  #17  
Old 06-15-2012, 05:14 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Wouldn't tanks blow up lurkers anyway? All that happens is that Terran players would have to save energy for scanner sweep rather than spam mulemulemulemulemule.
Not if lurkers have non-armored armor, so the tank attack dmg bonus doesn't affect them.

And in any case, even if they killed each other easily, it would be better than current "always lose" situations.
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  #18  
Old 06-15-2012, 05:17 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Tanks don't need more counters. Vipers are great, Anything more will make tanks useless.
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  #19  
Old 06-15-2012, 07:27 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Who said the Lurker had to be a clone from that of SC1? The proposed stats are the ones it had during the SC2 beta (and the editor), not the ones from SC:BW.
Yeah. That was not a good unit. Giving an anti-armored unit an area effect attack is pointless. Giving a cloaked unit siege range is pointless (totally redundant). There was nothing coherant about that version of the Lurker.

I like the Lurker, but the Swarm Host is new, fills a lot of the same criteria and has a very Zerg-like mechanic.

Quote:
And that's not splash, it's line AOE, like the hellion's attack. Don't mix them.
That IS splash. It's an area effect attack. Don't be dense, Lon. It's meant to hit more than one target at a time.

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Your "fungal is good" gets screwed against tanks and colossi, that exterminate those units outranging the fungal growth. Marauders and Stalkers never go alone unless it's harass or a bronze match.
Uh, Fungal is good. The opponent having a counter to it doesn't make it bad. Besides, this mysterious Marauder/Tank strategy is TOTALLY countered by Vipers. Stalker/Colossi is tougher, but Lurkers wouldn't counter Colossi anyway.

Quote:
The swarm host isn't the new lurker because it doesn't attack, it spawns melee units that have to run to the enemy. I would love to see how you attack a cliff with swarm hosts; oh, you can't.
What? Attacking from cliffs isn't even that common in StarCraft 2. Most maps are pretty open.

It's very similar to a Lurker. It attacks while burrowed, it's got a strong ranged attack (the units the Swarm Host spawns are pretty strong), it's an armored artillery unit.

Regardless... Lurkers woudln't be good against Tanks or Colossi. They're too cumbersome. The Viper is the best answer to those units. And then the Swarm Host is good against Marauders and Stalkers.

Quote:
Also, I was saying the mine has the model from the vulture's spider mine of the WoL campaign, not that it shares the mechanic.
That doesn't make any sense. What does that have to do with their reasons for not bringing back the Lurker then?

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Because they were just showcasing the new units, the Terran player didn't even try to counter the Vipers, not a single Viking was made.
He... didn't have a Starport? And it'd be kind of dumb to make Vikings when your opponent is massing Hydralisks.

I wouldn't confuse him being a bad player with the game being staged personally. But it could be staged, I just don't see why they'd need to do that.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:17 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Vikings could snipe the Vipers and then the tanks could mop up the Hydras.
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  #21  
Old 06-15-2012, 10:10 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Vikings could snipe the Vipers and then the tanks could mop up the Hydras.
Yeah but... more likely, the Vikings will just get sniped by the hydras. And he'd have to invest in a starport.

I'm just saying, there are reasons not to do it other than 'the game was fixed.' Plus, tanks don't counter Hydras that well out in the open.
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  #22  
Old 06-16-2012, 02:35 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Tanks rape the shit out of any light or heavy unit, which covers pretty much any land unit. If you matched tanks vs hydralisks with the same money cost, hydras would get raped.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Yeah. That was not a good unit. Giving an anti-armored unit an area effect attack is pointless. Giving a cloaked unit siege range is pointless (totally redundant). There was nothing coherant about that version of the Lurker.
Err... Don't siege tanks work like that, too?

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
That IS splash. It's an area effect attack. Don't be dense, Lon. It's meant to hit more than one target at a time.
The shape of the AOE is important, as well as if it can be avoided.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Uh, Fungal is good. The opponent having a counter to it doesn't make it bad. Besides, this mysterious Marauder/Tank strategy is TOTALLY countered by Vipers. Stalker/Colossi is tougher, but Lurkers wouldn't counter Colossi anyway.
SC2 lurkers counter the marauder+tank+viking and stalker+colossi balls perfectly. I think they're available in the unit tester, in case you prefer to see them in action instead of looking at numbers.

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What? Attacking from cliffs isn't even that common in StarCraft 2. Most maps are pretty open.
Are you kidding me? I don't want to use this argument, but hell, do you even play the game? Seriously? And by "play the game" I mean play league or play competitively against other players.

To start with 90% of all base entrances are in a cliff level above normal ground. If that's not attacking between different cliff levels, I don't know what it is. And people avoid fighting in the open (unless they can a+move the shit out of their opponents), they always stand at bottlenecks or ramps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
It's very similar to a Lurker. It attacks while burrowed, it's got a strong ranged attack (the units the Swarm Host spawns are pretty strong), it's an armored artillery unit.

Regardless... Lurkers woudln't be good against Tanks or Colossi. They're too cumbersome. The Viper is the best answer to those units. And then the Swarm Host is good against Marauders and Stalkers.
Lol, the swarm host ISN'T good against maurauders and stalkers (and roaches). Both of them, particularly, rape the shit out of them. How? By kiting. I would dare say they're their actual counter unit. Stim, blink and burrowed movement laugh at the locusts.

Locusts have the same role as the zergling, only that they are short-ranged and expendable. They let you "suicide zerglings" without wasting any money on actual zerglings.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
That doesn't make any sense. What does that have to do with their reasons for not bringing back the Lurker then?
None, maybe you know, having brought it together and mixed in the first place .

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
He... didn't have a Starport? And it'd be kind of dumb to make Vikings when your opponent is massing Hydralisks.

I wouldn't confuse him being a bad player with the game being staged personally. But it could be staged, I just don't see why they'd need to do that.
Vikings outrange hydralisks, and you're supposed to stay away from them. Viking are needed against vipers and brood lords.
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  #23  
Old 06-16-2012, 03:42 AM
handclaw handclaw is offline


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By the way, I am not that content with the warhound so far. Like the tempest, I think it is quite bland mechanicwise...

I actually like the suggestion of someone from sclegacy to blend in the mechanics of the warhound into the tankmode of the siege tank.
Giving the tankmode actually a real purpose, imo.
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  #24  
Old 06-16-2012, 06:11 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
By the way, I am not that content with the warhound so far. Like the tempest, I think it is quite bland mechanicwise...

I actually like the suggestion of someone from sclegacy to blend in the mechanics of the warhound into the tankmode of the siege tank.
Giving the tankmode actually a real purpose, imo.
I like it, the tank mode model is one of my favorites.
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  #25  
Old 06-16-2012, 06:54 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
By the way, I am not that content with the warhound so far. Like the tempest, I think it is quite bland mechanicwise...

I actually like the suggestion of someone from sclegacy to blend in the mechanics of the warhound into the tankmode of the siege tank.
Giving the tankmode actually a real purpose, imo.
The tank mode is fine, the problem is other units take that role too much. Tank mode is pretty good for killing buildings fast, more than siege actually, and you are sure you won't kill your own units with the siege splash.

The problem of tank mode is marauders, thor and other already take that role, unfortunately.
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