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  #126  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:44 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Hello all,

My first time posting, but I've read the forums for a while.

The quote above interested me, because in the Silver Enclave in Dalaran there are non-High Elf NPCs wearing the Silver Covenant tag. They are mostly barmaids, but one is 'Grand Marauder Sai', a human, and outside the Silver Covenant area at the Argent Tournament the stable master is, quite bizarrely, a Night Elf, and she wears the Silver Covenant tag.

I bring this up because I find it extremely unlikely that of all the citizens of Dalaran only the High Elves would object to neutrality and the abandonment of the Alliance. Surely many humans would baulk at this?

So, what do you think? Are there, canonically, non-High Elves in the Silver Covenant?
Given that the Covenant has never been defined as Elf-only organization (just made by the Elves loyal to Vereesa for certain goals) I see no reason why other races wouldn't be accepted into it. Your player character can also get the member tabard regardless of one's race.

As for "complaining about neutrality" one must remember the hard time of rebuilding, the not-so-pleasant rule of Garithos and the lack of any real help from the Alliance after his death. With Lordaeron destroyed and Dalaran isolated under a magic sphere it is no wonder they distanced themselves as soon as they got the power to - Dalaran's role throughout its history was being the centre of magical studies, a home for mages from the whole "civilized" world, Quel'Thalas included. With Horde becoming more "civilized". compared to the barbarian bunch that threatened the city's whole existence in WC2, and especially with the official Quel'Thalas joining the Horde, Dalaran just resumed its old role it held before the Dark Portal. Again, the Alliance is as young as the Horde, and the only "Alliance states" Dalaran really had any loyalty to, or rather friendship with, are Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas, the first one ruined and fragmented, the second one inside the Horde after a shadow of civil war.
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  #127  
Old 05-01-2012, 09:11 AM
redbranch redbranch is offline

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I can certainly see why some (maybe even most) Dalaran citizens and magi might prefer neutrality and an open arms approach to the Horde, but what I'm surprised about is the almost total lack of dissidents apart from the High Elves of The Silver Covenant.

Surely there would be some for whom racial loyalty is important, and those who see the current Alliance as the successor to the Alliance in which Dalaran was a central power?
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  #128  
Old 05-01-2012, 09:41 AM
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The thing about Dalaran being a power is that it was a magocracy and not only human, but also elven power. Of the three kingdoms that fell to the Scourge, two rose back to later join the Horde. Making Dalaran anything BUT neutral (assuming it were to fill the same role it did in WotLK) would have been hard.

Of course, the entire High Elf presence there is ridiculous to begin with.
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  #129  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:24 AM
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Dalaran would have made far more sense had all the High elves been Blood elves instead (with them having helped rebuild the city between TBC and WotLK, rather than simply showing up to help against Malygos).

Sunreavers are now the Pro-Silvermoon hardliners who object to more elven secrets being shared with humans, Silver covenent replacement is now humans but with the same motivation (object to Blood elf inclusion, pro-Alliance)

High elves don't exist beyond a couple of flavour NPCS because I seem to remember some guy trying to kill all the elves in Dalaran in frozen throne until they fled to outland, now what was his name...
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  #130  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:55 AM
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Surely there would be some for whom racial loyalty is important, and those who see the current Alliance as the successor to the Alliance in which Dalaran was a central power?
See, I'm not so sure about that. "Racial" loyalty is a very strange concept. Dalaran's citizens are loyal to Dalaran, why should they be loyalty to "humanity" in general just because of shared biology? The experiences of a human in Stormwind are so radically different compared to a human in Dalaran that they are just as different as, say, an Orgrimmar Orc and Stormwind human.
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  #131  
Old 05-01-2012, 11:40 AM
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See, I'm not so sure about that. "Racial" loyalty is a very strange concept. Dalaran's citizens are loyal to Dalaran, why should they be loyalty to "humanity" in general just because of shared biology? The experiences of a human in Stormwind are so radically different compared to a human in Dalaran that they are just as different as, say, an Orgrimmar Orc and Stormwind human.
Yeah, Dalaran and other Seven Kingdoms were independent, warring kingdoms for how many years of their history? Over a thousand?
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  #132  
Old 05-01-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
See, I'm not so sure about that. "Racial" loyalty is a very strange concept. Dalaran's citizens are loyal to Dalaran, why should they be loyalty to "humanity" in general just because of shared biology? The experiences of a human in Stormwind are so radically different compared to a human in Dalaran that they are just as different as, say, an Orgrimmar Orc and Stormwind human.
Because we're at a point in Human history on Azeroth where the nation you hail from is about as important as the colour of your boots. We're not in a period of history where politics are defined by kingdoms or nations anymore. They're largely defined by race now. This is doubly true for the Humans, since the Scourge, Burning Legion, and Horde don't care what nation you hail from. They want a Dalaran Human just as dead as a Stormwind human or a Lordaeron human in the end.

This was the whole reason the Alliance was created if you recall.

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Yeah, Dalaran and other Seven Kingdoms were independent, warring kingdoms for how many years of their history? Over a thousand?
There's a reason that the opening of the Dark Portal is considered the end of a long age and the beginning of a new epoch.
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  #133  
Old 05-01-2012, 11:56 AM
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The only reason "race" matters more now than it did in the past is because by and large most races that formerly had multiple states have been reduced to single-ethnic states for one reason or another, either by having those states destroyed or having the race of that state become something new and exclusive to that state (worgen, forsaken, etc). This is politically not a development inasmuch as it is a regression. By your logic, the Orcs of Orgrimmar should hold hands with those of the Dark Horde and sing kumbaya, simply because they are the same race. Similarly, we have not just dwarves, but Dark Iron dwarves who align themselves either with Ironforge or the more traditional Shadowforge.
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  #134  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:04 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Because we're at a point in Human history on Azeroth where the nation you hail from is about as important as the colour of your boots. We're not in a period of history where politics are defined by kingdoms or nations anymore. They're largely defined by race now. This is doubly true for the Humans, since the Scourge, Burning Legion, and Horde don't care what nation you hail from. They want a Dalaran Human just as dead as a Stormwind human or a Lordaeron human in the end.

There's a reason that the opening of the Dark Portal is considered the end of a long age and the beginning of a new epoch.
It is true, but the reason for the Alliance wasn't just to protect the humans. It was to stop a barbarian horde from destroying the whole "civilized world". With the threat gone the Alliance mostly broke up, except for some, and needed yet another total war to go back to uniting against the others. And after THAT was over we've got a stalemate: the remnants of the Alliance with their new allies and the now-civilized Horde, fighting for territories, but presumably without absolute annihilation (well, except for some guys). THAT is what allowed all "neutral factions" to exist: without an active threat (and nothing that happened in WoW was as devastating as the Third and the Second Wars) and with two military alliances fighting for the usual political reasons some could just continue to exist outside the main conflict.

It is especially relevant for Dalaran as it is more than a "human kingdom". It is a multiracial, multicultural state focusing on magic studies of all "civilized" people, and boycotting some of them, especially Quel'Thalas, just because it is in the Alliance in the new geopolitical situation is not wise.
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  #135  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:05 PM
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There's a reason that the opening of the Dark Portal is considered the end of a long age and the beginning of a new epoch.
Because after the opening of the Dark Portal, all the rival human nations stood united...no wait, there was Alterac. Well after the war, the remaining human nations stayed united...no wait, there was Stromgarde and Gilneas.

But it's much different for Horde races. Thankfully all the orcs of the world remain committed to each other...no wait, there is the Dark Horde and the Fel Horde. Thankfully all the trolls are united, no wait, there are the Darkspear Trolls.

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The only reason "race" matters more now than it did in the past is because by and large most races that formerly had multiple states have been reduced to single-ethnic states for one reason or another, either by having those states destroyed or having the race of that state become something new and exclusive to that state (worgen, forsaken, etc). This is politically not a development inasmuch as it is a regression. By your logic, the Orcs of Orgrimmar should hold hands with those of the Dark Horde and sing kumbaya, simply because they are the same race. Similarly, we have not just dwarves, but Dark Iron dwarves who align themselves either with Ironforge or the more traditional Shadowforge.
Also this.
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  #136  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:06 PM
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By your logic, the Orcs of Orgrimmar should hold hands with those of the Dark Horde and sing kumbaya, simply because they are the same race. Similarly, we have not just dwarves, but Dark Iron dwarves who align themselves either with Ironforge or the more traditional Shadowforge.
The difference here is that there's a fundamental difference between the Dark Horde and Garrosh's Horde (specifically one based on their attitudes towards demonic magic) that doesn't exist between Dalaran and the rest of humanity. Hell, Stormwind has its own bunch of wizards and other spellcasters who rival Dalaran in terms of ability and as far as differences go, the only thing keeping them neutral is Rhonin. One man does not make a fundamental difference between two groups.

And yes, Dwarves have clans within their nation. When I level my Dwarf in Twilight Highlands I'll be sure to tell the Dragonmaw there that I'm Bronzebeard and not Wildhammer. I'm sure that they'll let me live because of that, right?

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It is especially relevant for Dalaran as it is more than a "human kingdom". It is a multiracial, multicultural state focusing on magic studies of all "civilized" people, and boycotting some of them, especially Quel'Thalas, just because it is in the Alliance in the new geopolitical situation is not wise.
This didn't stop them from being Alliance from Warcraft 2 all the way up to Wrath of the Lich King, and even now they still show blatant Alliance favoritism.
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  #137  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:09 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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The difference here is that there's a fundamental difference between the Dark Horde and Garrosh's Horde (specifically one based on their attitudes towards demonic magic) that doesn't exist between Dalaran and the rest of humanity. Hell, Stormwind has its own bunch of wizards and other spellcasters who rival Dalaran in terms of ability and as far as differences go, the only thing keeping them neutral is Rhonin. One man does not make a fundamental difference between two groups.
Actually, the "fundamental differences" between Azerothian and Lordaeronian mage societies were one of the plot points in TLG.
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  #138  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:11 PM
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Actually, the "fundamental differences" between Azerothian and Lordaeronian mage societies were one of the plot points in TLG.
I'm not saying that there aren't differences, but they usually are simply differences in policy rather than a deep schism.
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  #139  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:15 PM
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The difference here is that there's a fundamental difference between the Dark Horde and Garrosh's Horde (specifically one based on their attitudes towards demonic magic) that doesn't exist between Dalaran and the rest of humanity. Hell, Stormwind has its own bunch of wizards and other spellcasters who rival Dalaran in terms of ability and as far as differences go, the only thing keeping them neutral is Rhonin. One man does not make a fundamental difference between two groups.
What about the fact that Dalaran is a city-state republic with an entirely urbane, educated, middle-to-upper class population who are arguably living in a post-scarcity society while Stormwind is a monarchy whose population is mainly comprised of rural freeholders?
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  #140  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:16 PM
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What about the fact that Dalaran is a city-state republic with an entirely urbane, educated, middle-to-upper class population who are arguably living in a post-scarcity society while Stormwind is a monarchy whose population is mainly comprised of rural freeholders?
The Six are elected now?

That's a good one.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:18 PM
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The Six are elected now?

That's a good one.
The Kirin Tor is the larger legislative body that is elected. The Kirin Tor then elects the Six from within itself- much how the British PM is selected from within his party of Parliament.
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  #142  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:21 PM
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The Kirin Tor is the larger legislative body that is elected. The Kirin Tor then elects the Six from within itself- much how the British PM is selected from within his party of Parliament.
Sources please. From what I recall, the Six select members of the Kirin Tor to fill their empty positions.
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  #143  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:22 PM
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Sources please. From what I recall, the Six select members of the Kirin Tor to fill their empty positions.
If I recall correctly, was it not Rhonin who explained he was nominated to the Six by the Kirin Tor?

Even if I am wrong, the fact remains that the Kirin Tor are elected (though not necessarily by any process resembling modern universal suffrage or liberal democracy) and that process is still fundamentally different than Stormwind's monarchy.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:25 PM
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The Kirin Tor is the larger legislative body that is elected. The Kirin Tor then elects the Six from within itself- much how the British PM is selected from within his party of Parliament.
Except most people, even within the Kirin Tor, had no idea who they are.

We don't even know if it it's the same now, since we only ever meet 3 members of the Six.

And, if you are a non-mage member of Dalaran, I don't think you get much say or a chance of being elected. I don't even recall there being any mention of elections. It always struck me as a meritocracy, where the better you where, the higher rank you became.

And, I'm Canadian, I know how parliament works
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  #145  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:31 PM
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I will admit that there may not be elections- I've got an essay on Sartre that's now overdue by 11 minutes so I shouldn't even be on SoL- though the fact that the Kirin Tor is called the "Magus Senate" implies that there are. Regardless of whether or not there are or are not elections, however, you cannot argue that the political system of dalaran and its civilian life are at all similar to that of Stormwind's.
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  #146  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:31 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Except most people, even within the Kirin Tor, had no idea who they are.

We don't even know if it it's the same now, since we only ever meet 3 members of the Six.

And, if you are a non-mage member of Dalaran, I don't think you get much say or a chance of being elected. I don't even recall there being any mention of elections. It always struck me as a meritocracy, where the better you where, the higher rank you became.
Well, that's why they ARE called a magocracy.

The modern Six, I think, are public and maybe even elected. For God's sake, they are standing right there in the citadel near the throne! Only blind or uninterested wouldn't get the memo.
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  #147  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:40 PM
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Well, that's why they ARE called a magocracy.

The modern Six, I think, are public and maybe even elected. For God's sake, they are standing right there in the citadel near the throne! Only blind or uninterested wouldn't get the memo.
Not unless they changed their policy to be more open between the Third War and WotLK, which is always possible.
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  #148  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:57 PM
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much how the British PM is selected from within his party of Parliament.
Do you know how much flak Gordon Brown got for not being elected by the people? It is not seen as particularly democratic.
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  #149  
Old 05-01-2012, 01:26 PM
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Well, that's why they ARE called a magocracy.

The modern Six, I think, are public and maybe even elected. For God's sake, they are standing right there in the citadel near the throne! Only blind or uninterested wouldn't get the memo.
Game Mechanics do not make lore side stuff.

Rhonin, Modera, and Ansirem are all parts of quests. It makes sense for them to be seen in game.

Besides, by the time we get to Northrend, the Player Character is a marginally important person, and probably worth at least 3 of the council members time.
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  #150  
Old 05-01-2012, 01:35 PM
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Do you know how much flak Gordon Brown got for not being elected by the people? It is not seen as particularly democratic.
I never claimed that Dalaran was a democracy, just a republic.
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