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  #5526  
Old 05-16-2012, 01:33 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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and when laws relax, people stop having a proper motivation to not go out and rape that pretty girl
Which still remains true. It's just not all people.

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This operates on the assumption that the reason people don't rape pretty girls is because they're afraid of tough laws. Which, I think you know, is bullshit.
Operating under the assumption that the reason many people don't rape pretty girls is because they're afraid of tough laws. Which is, funny enough, support in places like the middle east where the guy gets off Scott free and the woman gets put to death, or forced to get married to the guy.

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The flaw in your argument is that you're denying one of the core aspects of criminal behavior: the criminal doesn't think they'll get caught. That's why it doesn't matter if the punishment for stealing is time in jail or forced amputation of a hand. Even when Hammurabi's Code was the law of the land, there were still plenty of thieves.
Except most criminals acknowledge the chance, and will weigh risks vs reward.

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Of course, this is all a giant sidetrack. My original point was that as Fojar said, there are alternatives to execution. You deny it, oddly, but the alternative exists.
I just don't think a non-viable alternative is really an alternative.

Last edited by Ruinshin; 05-16-2012 at 01:42 AM..
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  #5527  
Old 05-16-2012, 01:42 AM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
Except most criminals acknowledge the chance, and will weigh risks vs reward.
If that were true, murder would be virtually unheard of in Texas. They execute more people than the rest of the country combined.


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I just don't think a non-viable alternative is really an alternative.
Non-viable? Many countries have banned the death penalty without falling into a murderous anarchy.
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  #5528  
Old 05-16-2012, 01:59 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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This has been demonstrated to be false though. Countries that have prison systems meant to rehabilitate and less harsh penalties overall, such as the Scandanavian nations, have among the lowest crime rates in the world.
Excuse me? This isn't true at all when looked at more closely. Petty crime has declined. Sweden, part of that area, has one of the highest numbers of rapes in Europe. In fact, I think the last count was 168 offenders out of 100,000 people.I'm almost positive that sexual related crimes raised over 50% in the last 10 years.

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If that were true, murder would be virtually unheard of in Texas. They execute more people than the rest of the country combined.
They also have more illegal immigrants to deal with than a large amount of the country, which vastly effects crime rates.

Last edited by Ruinshin; 05-16-2012 at 02:09 AM..
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  #5529  
Old 05-16-2012, 02:38 AM
Grunn Grunn is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Wait a second.

Are you telling me that a democratic country in the middle of Europe actually had a state religion in the 21st century?

Wow. I'm honestly surprised.
England, Denmark, Iceland, Georgia and Greece left to go then!

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Again, the modern, democratic western world still has death penalties?

Excuse me, while I'm being sad and apalled about humanity.
Only America bro, you know, the country where all the nuts who were too nutty for Europe ended up.

Last edited by Grunn; 05-16-2012 at 02:44 AM..
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  #5530  
Old 05-16-2012, 02:47 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Grunn View Post
England, Denmark, Iceland, Georgia and Greece left to go then!
According to the Constitution of Georgia, religious institutions are separate from government and every citizen has the right of religion.

Also, geographically Georgia is not in Europe, and its "democracy" has turned into a blatant police state nowadays.
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  #5531  
Old 05-16-2012, 05:15 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post


Yeah, except he's right.

Look, mistakes happen. It's horrible. It's still better to execute the wrong man once in a while instead of being lenient and letting some other bad dude go and kill 5 more people.

Emotionally? Yeah, kinda dick move.
Logically? Burn um.

Of course, the legal system could still use some cleaning up.
You'd fit well in the Salem in the 1600s.

Also this sappy thing.
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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia; 05-16-2012 at 05:26 AM..
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  #5532  
Old 05-16-2012, 05:18 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
Excuse me? This isn't true at all when looked at more closely. Petty crime has declined. Sweden, part of that area, has one of the highest numbers of rapes in Europe. In fact, I think the last count was 168 offenders out of 100,000 people.I'm almost positive that sexual related crimes raised over 50% in the last 10 years.
Romanian gypsies were there. That explains everything.
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  #5533  
Old 05-16-2012, 05:26 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I think the death penalty could be cheaper, bullets cost how much?
The majority of the cost of the death penalty is from the legal processes necessary. Sure, you could cut out all of that, but according to everyone else's logic of "everything or nothing", you'll end up with another Salem.

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
Because an alternative doesn't exist. Increased crime rates are a direct result of being successful as a species. When times are tough and food is scarce, laws tend to be much more strict. Steal food, get your hand cut off. The flip side to that is when times are good, laws tend to relax, and when laws relax, people stop having a proper motivation to not go out and rape that pretty girl.
False.

You can up the penalty for crimes all you want, but the reduction in the incidence is somewhat lower, depending. Death penalty for jaywalking? Yeah, jaywalkers will pretty much disappear. Murders and rapes? Those either tend to be crimes of passion (an emotional human is one that doesn't give a thought to much), or premeditated crimes by people who think they won't get caught, and thus the penalties won't matter to them.

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Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Ferlion: So basically, ancient Babylon is the pinnacle of judicial systems. An eye for an eye. I have to say, I'm very, very thankful you're not in charge of the country's justice system.
Funnily enough, an eye for an eye was revolutionary back then. Usually people went the disproportionate retribution route, as can often be seen in the Bible ("rape my sister? I kill your whole tribe!").
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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #5534  
Old 05-16-2012, 08:34 AM
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If you're for the death penalty, then you could not be any weaker on crime. And you're a killer's best friend for giving them a quick escape. Instead of actually holding them accountable for their crimes, you'd prefer live out some vengeance fantasy and give them some drugs to send them to sleep in a couple of minutes. See, the difference with me is that I actually want criminals held responsible and I'm not a big fan of bailing out murderers and rapists. I want them to spend the rest of their lives in a five by five cell until they're old and sickly and when their bodies start to fail then they can die.

Pretty ridiculous too that some Christians are more pro-death than anyone else. Must be hard to justify that urge internally when Jesus Christ himself was against the death penalty. But what does his opinion matter on it, right?
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  #5535  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:09 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
I want them to spend the rest of their lives in a five by five cell until they're old and sickly and when their bodies start to fail then they can die.
Yea, but they don't do this either.
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  #5536  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:21 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
You'd fit well in the Salem in the 1600s.

Also this sappy thing.
So, we're going to go with the route of burning, torturing, and drowning people over a silly oogie boogie man in the sky disapproving of hocus pocus being the same as rape and murder?

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I want them to spend the rest of their lives in a five by five cell until they're old and sickly and when their bodies start to fail then they can die.
Which I said would be fine earlier in the thread. I agree with that. We don't have it in us as a culture to go that far though.
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  #5537  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:22 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I'll be honest, I don't actually much like the death penalty. My statement about bullets is more of one about prisons being to expensive. California spends something like 50 grand a year per prisoner. I think prison labor needs to make a comeback.
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  #5538  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I'll be honest, I don't actually much like the death penalty. My statement about bullets is more of one about prisons being to expensive. California spends something like 50 grand a year per prisoner. I think prison labor needs to make a comeback.
Or America could just stop building for-profit prisons and stop arresting people for the victimless crime of lighting a joint.
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  #5539  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:28 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
So, we're going to go with the route of burning, torturing, and drowning people over a silly oogie boogie man in the sky disapproving of hocus pocus being the same as rape and murder?
Again, you were the one who said that killing innocents is fine.

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I'll be honest, I don't actually much like the death penalty. My statement about bullets is more of one about prisons being to expensive. California spends something like 50 grand a year per prisoner. I think prison labor needs to make a comeback.
If you bring back prison labor, than that means less jobs for people who can work for minimum wage, which means they'll get poorer, which increases the chances of them committing crimes. Everything has unintended consequences.

(Though, of course, there are certain hard labor jobs that citizens will not take, like fruit picking and mining, so that can still work.)
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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #5540  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
If you're for the death penalty, then you could not be any weaker on crime. And you're a killer's best friend for giving them a quick escape. Instead of actually holding them accountable for their crimes, you'd prefer live out some vengeance fantasy and give them some drugs to send them to sleep in a couple of minutes. See, the difference with me is that I actually want criminals held responsible and I'm not a big fan of bailing out murderers and rapists. I want them to spend the rest of their lives in a five by five cell until they're old and sickly and when their bodies start to fail then they can die.

Pretty ridiculous too that some Christians are more pro-death than anyone else. Must be hard to justify that urge internally when Jesus Christ himself was against the death penalty. But what does his opinion matter on it, right?
Considering Jesus came to Earth to die on the cross and save mankind from sin, I'd say He was fine with the death penalty. I'm sure He would have preferred the nice, quiet lethal injection that hardcore murdering rapists get in America, but unfortunately, Roman law was a little more swift and brutal in those days.

But, hey, I think Sarah and I agree - if we'd go back to publicly crucifying these scumbags, it'd be a much more effective deterrent.
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  #5541  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:40 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Again, you were the one who said that killing innocents is fine.
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It is, as long as the number of executed far outweighs the number of innocents.
Fairly sure that's only half of what was said throughout the conversation.

Just out of curiosity, as I'm rather curious and these moral conversations are fun.

Lets take a completely off the base hypothetical situation that will never happen.

Say you are picked up off the street and taken to a building. Inside the building you see 1000 children chained up. You are then walked through another building with 1001 children, and are told that the group of 1001 will be killed unless you personally kill the other 1000.

What would you do?

Or hell, another one. You know you can cure cancer. But to do so would require you to build a facility in a place that a village of 500 people live, and they won't let you do it, and moving them would kill them.

Do you respect their wishes, condemning every person for the next X amount of years until another cure is found to death, or do you get rid of the 500 standing in the way?
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  #5542  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:43 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
Or America could just stop building for-profit prisons and stop arresting people for the victimless crime of lighting a joint.
For-profit prisons are fine as long as they prove cheaper for the state and aren't being inhumane.

Note: I am for both paid and unpaid prison labor.
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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
If you bring back prison labor, than that means less jobs for people who can work for minimum wage, which means they'll get poorer, which increases the chances of them committing crimes. Everything has unintended consequences.

(Though, of course, there are certain hard labor jobs that citizens will not take, like fruit picking and mining, so that can still work.)
But prisoners who are able to work in prison are less likley to recidivate. Prison labor can teach them skills that they can use in the real world, it can keep them away from crime. Also, if they are being paid by private companies they have are able to help pay for some of their incarceration costs, they can pay restitution, they can support family, and they can earn gateway money for when they are released.
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  #5543  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:59 AM
Timolas Timolas is offline


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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
Fairly sure that's only half of what was said throughout the conversation.

Just out of curiosity, as I'm rather curious and these moral conversations are fun.

Lets take a completely off the base hypothetical situation that will never happen.

Say you are picked up off the street and taken to a building. Inside the building you see 1000 children chained up. You are then walked through another building with 1001 children, and are told that the group of 1001 will be killed unless you personally kill the other 1000.

What would you do?

Or hell, another one. You know you can cure cancer. But to do so would require you to build a facility in a place that a village of 500 people live, and they won't let you do it, and moving them would kill them.

Do you respect their wishes, condemning every person for the next X amount of years until another cure is found to death, or do you get rid of the 500 standing in the way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4GAQ...eature=related

Last edited by Timolas; 05-16-2012 at 10:03 AM..
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  #5544  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:02 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
Considering Jesus came to Earth to die on the cross and save mankind from sin, I'd say He was fine with the death penalty. I'm sure He would have preferred the nice, quiet lethal injection that hardcore murdering rapists get in America, but unfortunately, Roman law was a little more swift and brutal in those days.

But, hey, I think Sarah and I agree - if we'd go back to publicly crucifying these scumbags, it'd be a much more effective deterrent.
You're against the U.S. Constitution and what Jesus said. Read the Eighth Amendment and John 8:7.

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
For-profit prisons are fine as long as they prove cheaper for the state and aren't being inhumane.

Note: I am for both paid and unpaid prison labor.
For-profit prisons are not a good idea. If you provide a financial incentive to incarcerate people, then you are going to see more people in jain regardless of whether the arrest has merit or not. That's perverted. Even now, if you look at who is doing the lobbying for longer prison sentences and tougher laws on crime, you will see it is the private prison companies who are pushing for it. They're doing this, of course, because more prisoners are going to make more money. Private prisons are partly the reason why America has such a horrible achievement of having 25% of the world's prisoners despite having only 5% of the world's population. A record that beats even Iran and China, which is disgraceful. Justice should not be a business.

And there already is a prison labour system in place through UNICOR. 18% of U.S. prisoners are employed through it.
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  #5545  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:03 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Half of what the conversation was about? You said you're fine with killing an innocent person if they're mistaken for someone else who confessed to the crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post

Just out of curiosity, as I'm rather curious and these moral conversations are fun.

Lets take a completely off the base hypothetical situation that will never happen.

Say you are picked up off the street and taken to a building. Inside the building you see 1000 children chained up. You are then walked through another building with 1001 children, and are told that the group of 1001 will be killed unless you personally kill the other 1000.

What would you do?
I'd turn on the people who kidnapped me as soon as I got my weapon (or was freed from my bindings), and likely die a horrible death. There's no guarantee whatsoever that they would keep their word.

Quote:
Or hell, another one. You know you can cure cancer. But to do so would require you to build a facility in a place that a village of 500 people live, and they won't let you do it, and moving them would kill them.

Do you respect their wishes, condemning every person for the next X amount of years until another cure is found to death, or do you get rid of the 500 standing in the way?
That's a tough one!
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3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #5546  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:13 AM
Grig Grig is offline

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For-profit prisons are fine as long as they prove cheaper for the state and aren't being inhumane.
And how much would it cost the taxpayer to actually ensure that? For-profit prisons provide significant means for corruption (prisons bribing judges for being harshness in sentencing is one that has been seen, for one, even with juveniles) that just aren't there when there is no incentive to the prison to increase the number of inmates regardless of the crime rate.

Yes, the problem is really with the corruption, but how much will it cost to ensure that it does not occur? These policies normally come from types who hang their hats on maximizing liberty, but they sure do tend to screw normal people's liberties over. Funny, that.

Last edited by Grig; 05-16-2012 at 10:25 AM..
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  #5547  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:16 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
I'd turn on the people who kidnapped me as soon as I got my weapon (or was freed from my bindings), and likely die a horrible death. There's no guarantee whatsoever that they would keep their word.

Well then you just killed 2,001 kids and yourself in this incredibly pointless example.
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  #5548  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:19 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Half of what the conversation was about? You said you're fine with killing an innocent person if they're mistaken for someone else who confessed to the crime.
I said I was fine with the occasional innocent who looked guilty thanks to the evidence being killed as long as the large majority is actually guilty.

And again, using a 23 year old case of a guy who looks so much alike of another guy that family members couldn't tell them apart is a bit of a crap move.

Honestly, what upsets me more than this guy being put to death while innocent is that the large amounts of money and time spent trying to prove this guy was innocent just went out the door. One would think that, if the other guy was in prison, they could look up the name, just in case. Or at least check for it.

Hell, I'm not even saying that the system doesn't need work. Fairly sure I said it does earlier. But there will pretty much always be innocents wrongly accused with evidence pointing towards them. It's just part of the game. Does it suck? Yeah. Does it need to happen less? Yeah.

In this case, they had very flimsy evidence. It shouldn't have gone as far as it did. THAT'S what should be looked at, not the death penalty.
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  #5549  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:20 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
You're against the U.S. Constitution and what Jesus said. Read the Eighth Amendment and John 8:7.
It's cute how you like to take Bible verses out of context as it suits your argument.

It's also cute how you take the 8th Amendment out of context. My advice to you is to skip any aspirations you have for a career in law.

Cruel and unusual punishment refers to punishment that is excessive relative to the crime committed.

Crucifying someone who, say, rapes and murders children, is not cruel and unusual.
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  #5550  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:25 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Crucifying someone who, say, rapes and murders children, is not cruel and unusual.
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