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#1
05-15-2012, 12:42 PM
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Warcraft II Diplomacy variant
EDIT: Here is the current incarnation of the game.
 ALLIANCE PLAYERS Lordaeron and Azeroth (blue) A Lordaeron F Southshore Stromgarde and Kul Tiras (green) A Stromgarde F Kul Tiras Alterac and Gilneas (orange or yellow) A Alterac F Gilneas HORDE PLAYERS Blackrock and Bleeding Hollow Clans (red) A Blackrock Spire F Burning Steppes Stormreaver and Twilight's Hammer Clans (purple or light blue) F Stormwind F Northshire Dragonmaw and Black Tooth Grin Clans (black or grey) A Swamp of Sorrows A The Badlands VICTORY CONDITIONS There are three different ways to gain victory. 1) Standard Victory: Control 16 of the 30 supply centers on the board. 2) Alliance/Horde Victory: Destroy all three players of the enemy faction, and have more supply centers than either of your two allies. If there is a tie, play until one of you has more supply centers. 3) Magical Victory: Capture 3 of the 4 magical supply centers: The Dark Portal, Tomb of Sargeras, Caer Darrow, Dalaran. NOTES Home Centers: Home is where your Hall is built. There are no home centers in this variant; players can build units in any supply center they control. Rivers: I wanted Lordamere Lake and Darrowmere Lake to be in this without trapping fleets there, so I'm factoring in the southern Thondrodril River to connect Darrowmere to the Great Sea beneath it, and the River Arevass to connect Lordamere to the Great Sea in the north (it's on the retro map). Basically, the first river connects The Northlands, Tarren Mill, Alterac, and Caer Darrow by sea while the second river connects Tirisfall Glades, King's Road, and Lordaeron by sea. This allows Fleets to travel between these spaces. Caer Darrow: If we put both Darrowmere Lake and Caer Darrow in this game, then Caer Darrow would be an island completely surrounded by Darrowmere Lake. So instead, the "Caer Darrow" space represents both the island and the lake. It is the only ocean supply center in the game, and a player who controls it can build Fleets there. Dun Modr: I went back and forth on this one. North Dun Modr was important to the Khaz Modan campaign in Warcraft II, and it makes the northern Thandol area less of a no-man's-land without sticking Stromgarde on the border. But, South Dun Modr is just so handy as a western port--and it is current lore. Interestingly, some of the wiki articles seem to indicate that maybe there was an older extension of Dun Modr north of Thandol during the Second War, so maybe we could seize that interpretation and have both? Old Dun Modr, and regular Dun Modr? Forbidding Sea: Note that, due to its location, the Forbidding Sea is impossible to reach unless Air Units are allowed in the game. Unclaimed Lordaeron?: Though Stratholme, Tyr's Hand, and Hillsbrad would be part of Lordaeron, it'll probably be more balanced if we imagine that players have to "rally" these areas to the Alliance. The same goes for a few other places like Tol Barad (historically Stromgarde's at this time). Unclaimed Portal?: Yes! Like Dalaran, I wonder how the game will be if the Dark Portal starts out unclaimed, as if the Horde hasn't decided who gets the honor of guarding it yet. It'll probably still be the Dragonmaw-B.T.G. player, but it doesn't have to be. Made-up Names: Note that almost all of the Sea spaces have completely made-up names. Names I don't think I made up are: The Forbidding Sea, South Seas, Broken Isles. In general, I welcome suggestions of better names! So, ugly map. Non-proportional, but with rough boundary ideas. Might not lead to a very fun or balanced game, but it might---it's hard for me to tell. Any thoughts? [/edit] ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ HERE BEGINS THE ACTUAL ORIGINAL POST. THE RESPONSES IN THIS THREAD, ARE RESPONSES TO THIS POST: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Hey guys. I'm working on a Warcraft II version of the board game Diplomacy. Are any of you familiar with that game? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game) Anyway... I have the basic idea down. It's going to be six players, made up of the Warcraft II factions split by twos: Lordaeron and Dalaran (white) Azeroth and Kul Tiras (dark blue) Stromgarde and Alterac (yellow) Blackrock and Bleeding Hollow Clans (red) Stormreaver and Twilight's Hammer Clans (light blue) Dragonmaw and Black Tooth Grin Clans (black) And I've almost got a working version of the map. I was at first going to use the original map from the Warcraft II manual, but that would leave a LOT of unnamed places that I would just have to make up labels for... so it's going to use a bit of the Modern WoW map of the Eastern kingdoms to fill in the gaps. However, looking through the maps on the wikis, it's really hard for me to find a working map of the Azeroth and its border with Khaz Modan. ToD manual map: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../d/df/War2.jpg WoW map of Lordaeron, etc.: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...WLordaeron.jpg WoW map of Khaz Modan: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...WKhazModan.jpg WoW map of Azeroth: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...WoWAzeroth.jpg See, the Lordaeron and Khaz Modan maps were EXTREMELY helpful. But the Azeroth map confuses me a bit. I've tried to use Blackrock Mountain (which is on both the Azeroth map and the Khaz Modan map) as a gauge of the continents, but I still have a few things to grasp. 1) On the Azeroth map, it almost looks like Blackrock Mountain, Stormwind, and Northshire are on the coastline. But that's not water, is it? What is that area of land north of Stormwind and west of the Burning Steppes? I also have a couple of unrelated geographic questions, if you guys could help me out: 2) On the Lordaeron map, do you guys know what the Western Plaguelands would be called during the Second War? I'm thinking of just giving it a generic name, like the Northern Passage. But a real name would be preferable. 3) Similar deal with the Twilight Highlands (Dragonmaw Gates). Could they be called the Twilight Highlands during the Second War? Or did they gain that name only in the times of Cataclysm, with all the Twilight's Hammer stuff going on? Thanks for your help, guys. I really want this Diplomacy variant to be balanced, enjoyable, AND as accurate to the Warcraft world as possible!   (sorry if I'm in the wrong forum; I figured it was either this or Fan Fiction)
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 06-07-2012 at 12:33 PM. 
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#2
05-15-2012, 01:15 PM
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Twilight Highlands = Northeron
I don't know about the plaguelands. Maybe something like Central-Lordaeron and East-Lordaeron?
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#3
05-15-2012, 01:18 PM
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Thanks for the information! Okay, that changes things a little. I was just going to make it a generic province, but Northeron gets mentioned in the video game a bit because of the gryphon-riding Dwarves there, so it might become a supply center. It'd make Khaz Modan more valuable, anyway. EDIT: Okay, it looks like you meant it. At least, as far as Blizzard tells us... http://www.wowpedia.org/File  ossiblenortheron.jpgEDIT EDIT: And it looks like no one is sure whether Northeron was meant to be the Twilight Highlands, or if it was meant to be an area around the Aerie Peaks (because of the gryphons). Thanks for the confusion of never putting it on a map, Blizzard.  Quote:
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-15-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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#4
05-15-2012, 01:32 PM
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No, don't ask me how these dwarves were giving gryphons to the Alliance despite being in the middle of the Orcish-occupated lands. They... flew away... on gryphons, yes. And the Dragonmaw Clan was just chilling with that port in the east, no harm done, eh? Also, your Lordaeron map is old and non-canon. More like this. Last edited by Kir the Wizard : 05-15-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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#5
05-15-2012, 01:41 PM
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Being north of Thandol was kind of significant to the ToD Human campaign in Khaz Modan, with: * Level 5 capturing Dun Modr * Level 6 pushing south to Dun Algaz, with an actual in-game representation of Thandol Valley's former three land bridges. http://www.wowpedia.org/images/6/6f/Thandolspan.jpg I'm still undecided, but right now sticking Northeron in northeastern Khaz Modan would put it next to two other supply centers: Dun Algaz and Khaz Modan. That's great for Black Tooth Grin expansion, but it might mean that Dun Modr would fit better to the north of Thandol, as it was in the original version. Ah well. Anyway, do any of you know what is up with that northwestern area, on the Azeroth map, north of Stormwind but west of Blackrock? It's not supposed to be a coastline, is it? EDIT: Quote:
(I planned to use the original rivers connecting Darrowmere to the Great Sea, and the one that looks like it connects Lordamere Lake to a northern sea outlet, so that fleets built in those lakes can escape.)
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-15-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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#6
05-15-2012, 01:48 PM
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I also don't quite understand how are you going to play Azeroth in a Diplomacy-esque game based on the Second War. Lothar's army was an important part of the allied troops, but there wasn't any actual Azerothian state during that period, and besides it was much more clingy to Lordaeron with dear papa Terenas, rather than to Kul Tiras. How about uniting Kul Tiras and Gilneas in opposition to Lordaeron? EDIT: Quote:
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#7
05-15-2012, 01:57 PM
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 But the prettier design should totally be used.
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three
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#8
05-15-2012, 02:03 PM
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#9
05-16-2012, 06:28 AM
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But you don't really get that effect with the Alliance nations in this war, do you? As you said, there's a strong camaraderie between Azeroth and Lordaeron (as Terenas lets the Azerothians settle in the southern part of his country, out of the goodness of his heart), and the manual briefly mentions a personal friendship between Lothar and Daelin Proudmoore, but there's not much else political scheming to go on. You know, except Alterac... but I put Alterac with Stromgarde mainly for their geographic closeness, and so a player could imagine that toughguy Stromgarde is pulling extra weight for weakling Alterac.... or if he does decide to betray the human nations, he can roleplay that Alterac is the one doing it. Stuff like that; it's not quite as elegant as the Stormreaver and Twilight's Hammer grouping. My thinking was that a Lordaeron-Dalaran player would have a lot of interest in the Northlands and Quel'thalas (Stratholme and Tyr's Hand are going to start out unclaimed, even though they would technically be Lordaeron's property---just imagine that you have to build a Town Hall and base there, or that you have to mobilize the eastern cities for war  ) while an Azeroth-Kul Tiras player would have a lot of interest in the Great Sea and its islands, eventually leading back to continental Azeroth if they do well.Anyway, with the Lordaeron and Azeroth thing (now it's bugging me, because I'm thinking to the Warcraft III manual that mentions Turalyon conquering with both of these nations' banners together), an alternative would be to group them together while grouping Kul Tiras and Dalaran together. But if we did that, I'd probably want to move Dalaran to the coastline--right now I have it separated from the Great Sea by Southshore and Hillsbrad, in the current lore's position. But if I grouped Dalaran with Kul Tiras, I'd probably want to move it to its position on the retro map--on the west coast, northwest of Gilneas. In a few days I'll probably post some ugly maps. I'm thinking I'll post some different versions... so we can see how it'd look with Dalaran retro vs. Dalaran modern, as well as Dun Modr retro vs. Dun Modr modern.
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-16-2012 at 06:32 AM.
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#10
05-16-2012, 06:35 AM
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You could unite Dalaran with the Hillsbrad Foothills zone, so that it has its way to the coastline.
The actual "elegant" unions (lorewise) would be Lordaeron/Azeroth and Dalaran/Quel'Thalas, but that means having two centres at different regions of the Eastern Kingdoms... Even though this can actually be a feature when playing this factions! For example, Lordaeron starts strong, but has to protect its interests at all fronts.
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#11
05-16-2012, 06:51 AM
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But with this one, I do think I want to stick to the standard Human Nations and Orc Clans in the Warcraft II game, with Elven/Dwarven/Gnomish/NortheronDwarven and Troll/Ogre/Goblin/RedDragonSlave/BlackDragon allies being understood as part of the armies and fleets themselves. Another factor: As you seem to know, Diplomacy has every player for himself and ends when one player acquires half of the supply centers on the board. I was planning to allow two alternative methods of victory... Standard Victory: A player wins by controlling half of the supply centers on the map. Faction Victory: A player wins if the three members of the other faction are destroyed, and he has more supply centers than any other player in his own faction. The player effectively controls the world as leader of the Alliance or the Horde. Magical/Omnipotent Victory: A player wins by controlling three of these supply centers: The Dark Portal, Caer Darrow, Tomb of Sargeras, Dalaran.
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-16-2012 at 06:57 AM.
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#12
05-16-2012, 07:05 AM
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The Magical Victory way is interesting. Though, I'll admit, I was surprised at the idea behind a Diplomacy game based on one conflict with absolutely united Alliance and Horde. But I think it works if you implement "allied victory" path or even just support players playing it in historical alliances, like, for example, The Third Age mod for Medieval II did, if you allow me to bring some videogame examples here.
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#13
05-16-2012, 07:09 AM
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EDIT: A more ambitious project might be to have a version of the full world map, during one of the later time periods. The time of the Frozen Throne, for example... Alliance Horde Sentinels Scourge Illidan Dreadlords Forsaken Seven players right there, if someone could pull it off. Although a lot of them would be located in Lordaeron. :\
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-16-2012 at 07:12 AM.
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#14
05-16-2012, 09:31 PM
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It should be Lordaeron and Azeroth, Alterac and Gilneas, Stromgarde and Kul'Tiras.
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"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies… strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night… live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
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#15
05-16-2012, 09:37 PM
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three
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#16
05-16-2012, 09:40 PM
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#17
05-16-2012, 09:40 PM
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__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies… strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night… live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
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#18
05-18-2012, 11:02 AM
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!!!DOUBLE POST AVOIDED!!! !!!THIS IS WHERE THE NEW POST BEGINS, DAYS AFTER THE OTHER ONE!!! ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Okay, reflecting on this (and reading the article on Isiden Perenolde)... yeah, it would make a lot more sense to group Alterac and Gilneas together, than sticking Alterac with anyone else. Despite my early plans, Alterac simply cannot be on the same side of Stromgarde or Lordaeron. And Dalaran would be a stretch. So we'll see how things work with players that are geographically separated--that's what playtesting is for! And Fojar, as much as I disdained your idea of keeping Dalaran "unclaimed", it's looking like that really IS the best bet. It is tempting to group Dalaran with Kul Tiras (and stick Dalaran in its retro west coast position), but I realized that doing so would screw up my "Magical Victory" plan. It would start the Kul Tiras-Dalaran player out with one of the magical sites automatically (Dalaran) and put them in strong competitive distance from a second one (Tomb of Sargeras). So right now, we'll probably make Dalaran a neutral supply center, and the understanding will be that it's an Alliance member that will pledge its forces to whichever Alliance nation recruits it first. Basically the same thing already happening with the Eastern Lordaeron cities and Quel'thalas. In other news, I think I am going to move Dun Modr south of Thandol, to its modern position. My reasoning? I want to give the Dragonmaw and Black Tooth Grin Clans a chance to have a coastline on the Great Sea without having to take it from another Horde player. Having Dun Modr south of Thandol could make this more possible, if that player can cooperate with the Blackrock-Bleeding Hollow. Okay. Gotta make a few map adjustments. 
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-18-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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#19
05-18-2012, 11:35 AM
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You could also divide the Twilight Highlands, with the northern part belonging to Northeron dwarves and the southern divided between the Dragonmaw Port and the Twilight's Hammer.
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#20
05-21-2012, 12:23 PM
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Before I finish and post up this ugly prototype map, do any of you know the names of prominent locations on the Great Sea? I've named Menethil Harbor as a sea space (even though it should technically be the land on the coast), and I've named the sea space south of Hillsbrad Shores of Lordaeron (after the Human Act I), but other than that I've really found myself making up names. Random things like "Bay of Thandol" or "Gulf of Gilneas". And when I do post the ugly map, I'll definitely want recommendations from you guys on what to call the "made up" spaces. But in the meantime, are there any specifically named ocean spaces in WoW, in this part of the Great Sea? And also, are there any well-established Oil Patches in the ocean, which might be strategically vital? Thanks again! 
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-21-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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#21
05-21-2012, 02:36 PM
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 Elune 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 7,958
BattleTag: CptCarrot #1688
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I think this was from Cdev?
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#22
05-22-2012, 01:05 AM
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Proto-map
Okay. Here is my ugly, ugly, awful, nonproportional, ugly, prototype, ugly draft map.
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3...tdiplomacy.png Lordaeron and Azeroth (dark blue) Army Lordaeron Fleet Southshore Stromgarde and Kul Tiras (green) Army Stromgarde Fleet Kul Tiras Alterac and Gilneas (black) Army Alterac Fleet Gilneas Blackrock and Bleeding Hollow Clans (red) Army Blackrock Spire Fleet Burning Steppes Stormreaver and Twilight's Hammer Clans (light blue) Fleet Stormwind Fleet Northshire Dragonmaw and Black Tooth Grin Clans (white) Army Swamp of Sorrows Army The Badlands ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ PATHS TO VICTORY: 1) Standard Victory: Capture 15 of the 30 supply centers on the board. 2) Alliance/Horde Victory: Defeat all three players of the enemy faction, and have more supply centers than either of your two allies. If there is a tie, play until one of you has more supply centers. 3) Magical Victory: Capture 3 of the 4 magical supply centers: The Dark Portal, Tomb of Sargeras, Caer Darrow, Dalaran. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ NOTES Dun Modr: I went back and forth on this one. North Dun Modr was important to the Khaz Modan campaign in Warcraft II, and it makes the northern Thandol area less of a no-man's-land without sticking Stromgarde on the border. But, South Dun Modr is just so handy as a western port--and it is current lore. Interestingly, some of the wiki articles seem to indicate that maybe there was an older extension of Dun Modr north of Thandol during the Second War, so maybe we could seize that interpretation and have both? Old Dun Modr, and regular Dun Modr? Rivers: I wanted Lordamere Lake and Darrowmere Lake to be in this without trapping fleets there, so I'm factoring in the southern Thondrodril River to connect Darrowmere to the Great Sea beneath it, and the River Arevass to connect Lordamere to the Great Sea in the north (it's on the retro map). Basically, the first river connects The Northlands, Tarren Mill, Alterac, and Caer Darrow by sea while the second river connects Tirisfall Glades, King's Road, and Lordaeron by sea. This allows Fleets to travel between these spaces. Caer Darrow?: If we put both Darrowmere Lake and Caer Darrow in this game, then Caer Darrow would be an island completely surrounded by Darrowmere Lake. So instead, the "Caer Darrow" space represents both the island and the lake. It is the only ocean supply center in the game, and a player who controls it can build Fleets there. Forbidding Sea: Note that, due to its location, the Forbidding Sea is impossible to reach unless Air Units are allowed in the game. Unclaimed Lordaeron?: Though Stratholme, Tyr's Hand, and Hillsbrad would be part of Lordaeron, it'll probably be more balanced if we imagine that players have to "rally" these areas to the Alliance. The same goes for a few other places like Tol Barad (historically Stromgarde's at this time). Unclaimed Portal?: Yes! Like Dalaran, I wonder how the game will be if the Dark Portal starts out unclaimed, as if the Horde hasn't decided who gets the honor of guarding it yet. It'll probably still be the Dragonmaw-B.T.G. player, but it doesn't have to be. Made-up Names: Note that almost all of the Sea spaces have completely made-up names. Names I don't think I made up are: The Forbidding Sea, Menethil Harbor, South Seas, Broken Isles. In general, I welcome suggestions of better names! So, ugly map. Non-proportional, but with rough boundary ideas. Might not lead to a very fun or balanced game, but it might---it's hard for me to tell. Any thoughts? EDIT: Home Centers: Home is where your Hall is built. There are no home centers in this variant; players can build units in any supply center they control.
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-22-2012 at 08:10 AM.
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#23
05-22-2012, 02:38 AM
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Can you make Twilight's Hammer purple? They look... too much like Azeroth otherwise.
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#24
05-22-2012, 06:03 AM
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I'll probably also change Alterac-Gilneas to Orange so I can have the Dragonmaw-B.T.G. as Black. In Warcraft II, most of your Orc missions are played as the Red of the Blackrock Clan, but the Khaz Modan ones are played as the Black of the Black Tooth Grin (probably so you can fight Red-colored Stromgarde), and it'd be nice to recreate that. One obvious point I keep forgetting to mention... this variant won't differentiate between home supply centers and regular supply centers, so players can build units on any centers they control---not just the ones they start out with. EDIT: Hmm, the uploaded version seems scaled down a bit and harder to read. Let me know if you folk can't read something, or if you're not sure where I stuck a connection.
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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three Last edited by BaronGrackle : 05-22-2012 at 06:13 AM.
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#25
05-22-2012, 06:10 AM
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That's awesome. Both Black Tooth Grin and the modern Dragonmaw Clans use black colour.
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