This, considering that even Mekkatorque (or especially Mekkatorque) being in Ironforge would make more sense than Wildhammer-leader-whose-name-I-dont-remember

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That's ok, i'm pretty sure he's dead anyways.

Also I have been editing my other post but if you(Omacron) didn't Notice that then:

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fojar Leviathon you're seriously the worst mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarahmoo Go back to being the worst mod in the universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anansi Scrolls of Lore Rule #61: Leviathon is the worst Mod.

I had a longer one, but I would say that my main one would be trying to tell two stories at once that don't necessarily make sense together. Alliance and Horde conflict works best with enemies like Deathwing and the Lich King when it's treated as small ignitions of conflict that play into the larger story of two factions who don't like one another but happen to have the same enemy try not to get overly wrapped up in forgetting the main goal, which is to make sure that they survive. In this case, the faction conflicts should be something that could be considered a minor border skirmish, or viewed as minor incidents that, at the time, won't force faction conflict. They can be used as a reason to up the animosity if desired, and they can be used as a reason to initiate conflict once the major bad is dealt with.

On the other hand, the faction conflict works great when there is no major, obvious bad that is more threatening to both factions than the factions themselves. In this case, going into all out war makes sense, and that is happening in MoP. I just think that it may have been started a couple of expansions too early.

I feel like the character and such established in the Mangas are underleveraged. In general, I think that it'd be better to use older characters instead of creating new ones for NPCs. Like when we went to Northrend and found Gryan Stoutmantle there instead of some random commander we've never met. Look in the manga and the various other stories and use those characters as NPCs.

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On more Worgen related notes, I don't know if it will ever be possible but I would love more amplified Worgen presence in zones such as Duskwood, Western Plaguelands, Ashenvale, and Blasted Lands possibly Westfall or Darkshore as well to give them a better follow-up after Gilneas so they don't completely feel like they're just riding coattails for too many levels. Spread more of that Gilnean architecture and ditch the tree concept, that or make the trees look more like Blackwald with the black/red motifs going on and the thorny twisted nature of it all that makes it feel very iconic for Worgen. I would also like to see Worgen Druidism being made different from Night Elven, still, maybe the way they naturally grow things is different due to the effects of the curse. Or maybe they could just practice it differently, looking at it as more of a resource rather than having any real deep respect for it like the Night Elves do.

And they need more conflict with the Forsaken, I think. It really does just end after Gilneas for them and I think zones like WPL would have been a great way to rekindle their feud against their rivals. I know I'm treading on thinner waters here but I really do think the Worgen and Forsaken were meant to be fueled against each other a lot more than how Cataclysm presented it.

Maybe these could be highlighted more in expansion after MoP though and maybe in different worlds where Gilnean architecture could fit. I would definitely hope so but if it does end up that way then I would hope my suggestions fit the bill for what they should do.

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"A few nights back some guy threw a ball and told me to fetch. In response, I did the same, but with his head. Needless to say, he didn't have a witty comeback." - Sniffy Pete

I'll second pretty much everything that had been said and add a few bullet points of my own.

Don't introduce new races then drop them off the face of Azeroth as quickly as they are introduced.
- Draenei have been stuck lorewise since the end of BC and players still think that they work better as a neutral race and when the Alliance has to ask if they are even still in the Alliance, you know you got problems.
- Blood elves have had a bit more movement lorewise, but are still that pretty Horde race that lives someone north of the Forsaken and love magic. Having a leader that no one cares about because Blizzard doesn't care about doesn't help otherwise.
- Worgen... it's been said enough. As soon as they leave Gilneas, their story pretty much drops off a cliff.
- Goblins have actually had it very good in Cataclysm. They are just as numerous as the orcs and have had a hand in nearly every single major Horde plotline.

Don't repeat what you did for the ending of Gilneas. Having to roll Horde to find out what happened to Gilneas, what Darius did, why Godfrey & Co were brought back and who the hell is Ivar Bloodfang was really bad writing. It wouldn't be hard for a questline, or even quest text that gives an Alliance player a bit of info about what happened while they were off squatting in a tree.

People really don't like being told that their faction is incompentent or one step away from being prime evil.

Don't put lore into books and then wave it away in the game. Malfurion shows up and the Emerald Nightmare get's a single line of text. The worgen and Varian stop Garrosh from taking Ashenvale, but it's never mentioned in game and evidently the Alliance gave it all back to the Horde. Lore in books shouldn't exist in it's own universe, it should supplement the story.

Set up a timeline, please for the love of Elune, can we please get a WoW timeline?

Let the non-orc/human races get some time in the spotlight. Garrosh and Varian end up sucking up all the oxygen in the room and the rest of the leadership, with exceptions, fade into the background or act as props to the Big Two.

Even when you lose, you can still win. That seems to be missing a lot in questlines on both sides.

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Meanwhile.... back at the

How about there is no huge major enemy, but 2 new factions fight each other and they decide to join the Alliance/Horde?

I agree with this.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fojar Leviathon you're seriously the worst mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarahmoo Go back to being the worst mod in the universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anansi Scrolls of Lore Rule #61: Leviathon is the worst Mod.

I also feel that races tend to feel too monolithic. There isn't enough internal disagreement. I guess dwarves are the closest to it, but the Dark Iron and Wildhammer are presented as separate from the player dwarf faction even with the Three Hammers. (though if you let player dwarves use Dark Iron and Wildhammer skins...)

In general most factions that go against the mainstream tend to become villains. The main human dissenters? Defias. Main tauren dissenters? Grimtotem. Main blood elf dissenters? Kael's forces. So on and so forth. Look at the world we live in: just about every country has internal conflicts and arguments, and most of them don't end up with one side killing the other.

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Other things, try not to end too many zones like Westfall and Vashj'ir and not continue the story somehow. It doesn't need to be a happy ending to the story, but it needs something more conclusive than those zones got.

A lot of people are asking for more focus on the non-Orc, non-Human races.

Well, around here, it seems that people were very pleased with the way the Horde Family Tree quest is turning out, with a different version depending on your race. The prime complaint seems to come from Alliance races, which are left out. But the different presentations for Orcs, Tauren, Goblins, Undead, and Trolls seem to be the kind of stuff people approve of.

Any of you can correct me if I'm way off here.

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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

(Hi, this is Garotar's wife, he pointed me here because he thought I might be interested in answering this question for myself, as someone who enjoys roleplaying. )

I know that different expansions tend to focus on a particular race (or even class to an extent) as far as lore is concerned, but I would like to see a little more attention given to those who are not the focus; maybe not class-wise, but race-wise would be good. It doesn't have to be much, just flesh out the story where they are concerned, even give some update on their progress as a people. Especially for people like the Blood Elves and Draenei; I know they were in the spotlight in the Burning Crusade, and though their intro voiceover was updated (it was "one month ago" for way long! I suggest staying away from time-specific things like that in the future), it seemed like they were pretty stagnant overall.

As another poster said, it would be nice to see good, strong female leaders as well. Not a "strong female" leader, but a strong leader who happens to be female-- there is a difference. Ideally, a non-elf; I loved the movement for a female Goblin leader (my main server has the 'For Her Tallest' guild), and I would have loved to have seen more development for characters like Zaela. I was sorely disappointed with how Tyrande seemed to be treated with Malfurion's return. (I am still extremely annoyed at the 2012 wall calendar-- it supposedly features racial leaders for each month, yet the one for night elves is Malfurion. No no NO.)

Even development for female characters who are not leaders would be nice; Genn Greymane has been hanging out with Varian Wrynn for a while, it would be nice to see a bit more for the Worgen people as they live in Darnassus, maybe some quests given by Queen Mia or Princess Tess as I would imagine the Queen is overseeing things there while the King is in Stormwind. This could tie in well to a little more for the Worgen than just leaving Gilneas and being plopped at the docks of Darnassus, imo.

Some niggles of mine:

Could retcons or inconsistencies be better handled in-game? if Metzen has decided the Forsaken/Dalran remnants war in Silverpine was a mistake, then would it really take much effort to change a few lines of quest text, mob names and tabards to make them "Alliance mages" rather than "Dalaran mages"?

If the books are going to be canon make them actually matter to the game, Stormrage and Night of the dragon are probably better left ignored, but for example playing through Ashenvale you would be under the impression that the war never ended between Vanilla and Cataclysm, rather than there having been a recently broken ceasefire.

I'l echo what others have said, either focus on the Horde vs Alliance conflict or the world ending monsters, having both at the same time has been diminishing both stories ever since WotLK.

Having made the decision that the Worgen players were going to take no part in the continuing narrative of the Gilneas invasion after they moved to Teldrasil, there's pretty much no reason to retell the story from an Alliance PoV because excepting the SFK instance you will never see these characters again as an Alliance character.
(Having no reason to go to SFK and the plot basically making no sense unless you played through the linked zone as the other faction is mirrored with the Horde having no idea what is going on in the deadmines and a pretty flimsy reason for being in there).

I have many things to say, but I'll go with what I can think of first.

I like worlds that feel alive, and I hope for it to happen in the future. Have phasing occur that doesn't necessarily involve the quest you just did.

For instance, Highbank could have steadily been built up over time as one quested through the zone.

Neutral factions at times seem so distant, aloof, almost idyllic, and often seem to be their own countries.

Stop that!

If the Horde destroys Ashenvale, have druids actually give a damn about their stated mission. In that example, have elven druids asking the Alliance characters to sabotage the Horde's efforts. Have an elven druid in Hyjal grit his teeth when he gives Horde players a quest.... or have an elven druid argue with and berate a tauren druid who tries to make it clear that Horde-race druids do not support the war.

Adding onto that, neutral organization PCs should indicate, somehow, that they come from somewhere else, rather than just seeming to be, say, an orc born and raised under the Argent Crusade banner. Have some tensions, even if one-sided. Have spies. At least have some damn disagreements over what to do next! A night elf could say to leave a plot of land alone, while an orc might suggest making a barracks, and a human could recommend building a farm... or something like that. Anything to show any difference between the races besides the occasional made up word or phrase.

Also, stop indefinitely taking away Alliance and Horde stuff and making it into a neutral faction. Where are the Alliance's paladins? Why aren't any of them (besides like three) saying, "the Horde may not be completely evil like the Scourge, but I will defend my people if necessary!"? Or something suitably more greyish? The idea that the Goodest of the Good will ignore the crimes of the Horde or Alliance is quite frankly silly. At least, not without some commentary. Have the "your petty issues with the Horde murdering your hometown are silly!" paladin be called a traitor to his kingdom for standing aside.

Also, if another faction-themed neutral organization pops up... for everyone's sake, make it a temporary one. The Argents should have disbanded back into their respective factions. Or at least do it like they did with the Might of Kalimdor.

Also? No one is buying that Malfurion is Alliance. He's not. Knaak may have tried to fix things with Wolfheart, which I do sort of appreciate, but it's not reflected in game, and can't be reflected in lore at all because... well... he's overpowered. So stop bothering.

Speaking of which, stop with the overpowered characters. Jaina seems fine, I guess, but Thrall and Malfurion are over the top.

The Horde also needs the villainy stick pulled out of its ass before the peace becomes even more ridiculous than it already seems. Especially with the Forsaken.

Speaking of morality, everyone needs a morality slider, not a morality switch. Saving the world because you keep your stuff there and eating a baby sandwich daily do not average out to grey. At least not to any grey that people would appreciate.

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1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

More Cdev/Fan interaction would be nice. Updates to the story every patch like "What has gone before" sort of things, that detail the previous events of the past patch and their overall impact on the world and the people.

Other then that, everything has pretty much already been said, I agree with it all.

- cultural lore of each race expanded.
- more focus on races instead of factions ( or, as the case may be, one race per faction.
- a clear, unique thematic base for each race unrelated to neutrals. ( CC gets druidism, darn gets elune, AD gets paladin , SW gets priests, Ect)
- a solid timeline
- don't overshadow characters ( as per malfurion and tyrande)
- reactions that make sense. Malfurion. Should be pissed at the horde. He never mentions it. Screw making players feel bad. They should.
- factional hubs and heroes, not one center hero ala thrall.
- novels mentioned more in game
- smaller, faster content patches that expand the story outside of the core expansion theme.

First: No zone or instance should be completely a pop-culture reference

Westfall was an episode of CSI: Miami that only served to introduce the new Deadmines bosses. Redridge Mountains was a pile of Rambo jokes. Uldum, an endgame zone, was half Indiana Jones references. Gnomeregan, the main component of the gnome racial storyline, was just The A-Team!

Pop-culture jokes are funny, but not when they are the storyline. It is distracting, does not advance the plot in a meaningful way, and gets annoying fast. Use the universe that you have made.

Second: Uldum sucked

Uldum was terrible. The zone can be split into two quest chains: the tol'vir civil war and Harrison Jones being an archeologist.

For the former, we learn nothing about the tol'vir's life and culture. We don't see their connection to the titans beyond the Ramkahen using Nahom's defenses and the Neferset using the animated statues. We don't see who they are. They are generic faction 1 fighting generic faction 2. With the history hinted at by Ask CDev and the archeology items, it is like nothing planned actually got added to the zone. They are bland, and a poor follow-up to Ulduar. Halfway through the war (and not the climax), you take the fight to Skywall, and then move on after killing a mid-ranked djinn. After killing their main city, you find out they still have another base (the Lost City) where they turned on Siamat of-screen? What was that about? You'll never know from the game.

For the latter, it was like no one knew what the story was. Upon entering the zone, and all the way through, your goals are unclear. You stop the Twilight's Hammer from gaining access to the weapon in Deepholm, and then go to Uldum to find the weapon. Nope! Adarrah is there for loot. Better forget the weapon. You have to help these bland people in their war. Then Harrison offhand mentions the Coffer of the Promise, but you have to activate obelisks tied to the cloaking mechanism first for some reason. Indiana Jones jokes! Then at the very end, after countless Nazi jokes with no ties to the backstory, Deathwing and the Coffer (which is?) are mentioned again out of the blue. The Coffer stops the reorigination device (which is connected to Algalon apparently, but a quester does not get that), and makes a valley lush... okay. HoO is tied in nicely, but it ends very abrupt after that. It just ends there.

There are no (well, two) dailies and no reasons to come back in the zone. Just buy a tabard and leave. What were the ties to Ahn'Qiraj and Ahn'kahet?

The teleporting the quester back to the quest giver thing gets annoying, the phasing is buggy, and there seems to be the most bugs regardless. This is one of the five endgame zones of Cata. Come on.

Also, brown. The zone is dull in coloration, and mostly empty desert. It may be intentional, but it is a waste of space.

Third: Use races that you add to the game

The gnomes are mini-dwarves content to do nothing but train engineers, the draenei are absent, the worgen are night elves (and gave half their unique plot the the Forsaken), the blood elves hardly do anything, the dwarven leaders do nothing outside of one zone's questing, the goblins have no racial leader, and so on... give the less-used races a racial plotline that advances even a little. Don't make everyone odd-looking human or orcish foot soldiers in the human and orcish armies.

Fourth: Silverpine

In Silverpine, the plot is both polarizing and railroaded beyond anything ever done in WoW.

The Forsaken are a mindless extension of Sylvanas. They have an imperialistic army, steamrolling everything in their way, and no one questions this. Your character is Sylvanas' special friend, having a backstory and personality forced on him/her on a massive level like the goblins were (I disliked that). The Forsaken consider the continent of Lordaeron all part of the former kingdom that they claim? They claim to not use mind control, but every raised soldier switches sides instantly after Deathknell. The val'kyr apparently can only raise humans, why? What happens after Sylvanas gets shot? Like the Alliance's loss in Andorhal, the quester is just sent on with no resolution, when more fighting was to be done. The battleground is just a context-less stalemate.

Also, they get the latter half of the worgen storyline. There are only two zones where worgen are worgen and not night elves, and worgen players only see one of them.

Those are my main beefs.

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...what just happened?

Create an identity for the Forsaken beyond the Deathguard, RAS and Sylvanas. In fact, ideally don't use any of them in MoP. Perhaps bring up their priesthood, or their arcanists, even. In fact, arcanists of all races need more exposure; Dalaran only covered those of a few races, and only blood elven ones have really been given a fair shake otherwise. Especially warlocks, although the Council of the Black Harvest seems to be dealing with that issue.

Most of what I'd say otherwise has already been said. Hence, my only other request would be to flesh out the major NPC races as well, even if they're largely antagonistic. Give them reasons for doing what they do, reasons that make sense to them. And preferably allow us to see non-antagonistic examples of them; to me, all this helps the world feel more alive.

I just feel like WoW suffers from too much exposition. The game could use a lot more little details that hint at a much larger world but never really come out and give a black-and-white recount of the situation. In particular what the various races do as part of their culture and daily routine (what do orcs do to keep themselves busy when they aren't fighting?). The devil is in the details and I feel I get the most passionate when there's a lot of little touches in the game. The notion of world building falls under this category too.

On another note, I feel like encounters, bosses, and instances in general have become too mechanical and have lost a lot of that flair and character that was (mostly) present in vanilla and TBC. Boss abilities should make sense as much as they make compelling encounters.

Oh, and more seeded lore. Think about how excited people were just to see Outland and Northrend. It's because it was a fruit dangled just out of reach for so long. These days it feels like we're just tossed content as it's made up, rather than foreshadowed a while before.

As a final (maybe) note: it'd be nice to see the various races shine in their own ways, in or outside of combat/war.

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"Winter Wolves" has earned the achievement [Classy Worgen]!
[Guild] [Odok]: wtf we're horde
[Guild] <GM>: doesn't matter. All worgen are classy.

Horde Bias!

Jesus tap-dancing Christ. Hit the nail on the FOCKIN' head.

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Another little idea I had, thats pretty much lore related, is the concept of a class/race lore panel when you are creating your character. There is the little tidbit of lore you get for your class and race, but say you are making a night elf mage, there will be the night elf and the mage collum, and added to that a "night elf mage" panel that tells the lore of the night elf mages. Same goes for every class/race combo, which could expand the lore for both a race and a class.

I feel some work still needs to be done in making various races and classes more distinct. Example, Night Elves, Tauren, Trolls and Worgen can all be druids, but by all rights, each race's approach to druidism would have a different slant to it. We know the Troll druids in the Cenarion Circle stir trouble by comparing the ancients and wisps to the loa of their own faith, but how do Tauren's beliefs in the Earthmother change their approach to the Night Elf dominated Cenarion Circle, how do the Worgen druids reconcile their old lives with their new calling? etc. The same can be explored for various races' approach to things like paladins, priests, shaman, etc.

In another vein, ideas brought forward in supplemental material (novels, manga, short stories, what have you) should ideally be manifested in-game proper. If a novel refers to one faction struggling on a particular front against enemy such and such, players should be able to go to these zones and see for themselves that yes, their faction is having trouble there. Just a bit of in and out of game coherence.

A more minor, but certainly no less important suggestion, certain cities and quest hubs are scenic, but feel otherwise drab and lifeless. Having quest givers, vendors and trainers just standing there twenty-four hours a day is functional, but seeing these NPCs talking to each other, discussing relevant topics, or otherwise being active is fun. A hub feels most vibrant when the NPCs are busying themselves with whatever needs doing; training recruits, giving orders to workers, bemoaning whatever problem of the day, etc.

Some of these things could be made to evolve over time with phasing where applicable. If we first see a hub while it's being set up, NPCs overseeing construction might be discussing how hard it is to find suitable building materials, but if we come back when it's fully built, the same NPC might complain about how damn hot it is and how they shouldn't have used black slate in an area already choking hot.

Just minor elements of flavour which can make zones, races, factions and peoples seem more alive.

It's been said already but I agree very much with it. More variety with NPCs, there are a ton of races in this game that players see the world through and it'd be nice to see more different races getting some spotlight. Like I see in MoP there is the Sunwalker guy and the Sentinels, that's a step in the right direction. Branch out to more races, particularly Draenei, Worgen, Gnomes.

Also novel/comic/manga characters, they should appear more. Halford Ramsey, Gilneas's top detective, and he doesn't exist in any form in-game. Med'an, while I dislike him, one should not simply add a character and not do anything about it. Cho'gall was his enemy in the comic and yet we don't see him or the council doing anything about him in-game. A way Blizzard has done it right is like with Thargras Anvilmar, helping him at the Thandol Span was pretty epic and it was nice to see him in-game.

Also, raid lore. We like to see it outside of the Dungeon Journal. Cataclysm was very disappoint in this during the first raid tier. There were no quests about why we're heading to Blackwing Descent or knew Nefarian was back doing secret experiments. Where exactly was Bastion of Twilight, Grim Batol is the theory but actually mentioned in-game would have been nice. Also of course Al'akir. Uldum should have had a lot more of him, supposedly mentioned in the magazine he had a history with the Tol'vir, I am disappointed we didn't see more on that.

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Expansion Ideas: War for Argus

Alright, lets do this. I've been a long time lover of the franchise. I was brought in during Warcraft 1 which coming from Dune I felt was superior in many ways. It wasn't until I the release of the second game, which I grew to love Warcraft. I remember driving home reading the instruction manual and being drawn in, at that point Blizzard had me.

When I was playing WoW for the first time it was the rich mysteries of the world and exploring the lore that has brought me to where I am now as a Fan. The hidden ruins, the strange artistic coincidences the voids in the back story. Honestly if the game needs ANYTHING it's more cohesive writing when it comes to World lore. It's easy to get caught up in the present but it's the inevitable exploration of the past that really matters in the long term to lore fans. I myself feel that things that should have been delved into still remain untouched after 7 years and others have been added only further muddling those mysteries. Things like the Emerald Dream NEED to happen before the big persistent legion and external plot lines be explored. The Emerald Dreams absence in the game still remains to this day to be one of my biggest disappointments, it's such a good way to subtlety introduce so much Titan/World lore without being blatant and expositive about it. Letting players draw their own conjectures is fine, as long and often superior as long as those are solidly presented. Retroactive experience is key but doesn't need to be over done. The three games prior being referenced ALWAYS pleases me, it's easy to get caught up with whats new and hip but the small things like seeing ships from Warcraft 2 seriously please me. There needs to be more focus on the history than the present lore.

I agree with what a few of the others have said. The Alliance does need some development. However I'd rather see more grey added into the mix akin to Warcraft 3. While unpopular I feel that serves to make things interesting. We are seeming approaching a time when white knight status of both factions is immanent, and I'm fine with that if it's done within reasonable confines. The Velen short story is a step in the right direction and the Draenei really do need more elaboration and content (again this is nothing new). I'd personally love to see more of the extremist side presented more in game. The Dwarves council of three hammers plotline is compelling and shows potential along with Magni's current state. Female Leaders like Tyrande really REALLY need some screen time, think back to her in Warcraft 3, how her and Maive were used. Thisalee Crow was your biggest success in this department. Over all politics really should be a big focus. If you think about most of the games previous successes with the fan base it should be obvious more focus on the political powers is a big one. They shouldn't be white washed, there should be internal debate and adverse opinions on both sides internally and externally. The game is seriously lacking in depth when it comes to these departments. Bolvar's point about Calia is rock solid, people want things to be interesting, Blizzard needs to give them that. Far to much remains ignored these days when it comes to the story, little hints that things are in the work is superior to stuff being out right forgotten, it also lets the writers see where the communities interest stands.

As big plots will eventually progress it's often the little plots people get attached to. I felt the Stone Talon quests horde side were great. This is a game about war, make more NPCS integral to the over all experience and they become memorable. The more time players spend along ANY NPC they eventually become attached to them. The game is in need of serious battle brothers, NPCs who rise along beside you, who you grow to like despite their failures and flaws since your successes are mutual beside eachother. This should be a standard and seeing as how people have built up various NPCs in the community entirely evident. You can saturate the world with a million joe blow quest givers, but give players something major to get attached to and you will win them over. Just look at some of the experiments with this in Cata and it's clear that this is the way to go, but on a larger scale. This also allows for honest heart break when your "friends" die or lose their way, that is what the game really needs. MoP is the prime time for this with the focus on the war, it's also a great way to rally the most faction loyal to the call of further bigger conflicts from this point.

A solid time line available would be nice...