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Old 06-08-2012, 01:44 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Default Worgen, Goblin, and the Sha

So here's a question for you, especially in regards to race development post-Cata. What happens when you take a highly feral, barely in control race, throw it next to an insanely greedy and competitive race, and whip it together with even a touch of Sha?

To be less convoluted...How do you think the Worgen will react in Pandaria, especially when faced with a group who have seemingly mastered emotion as well as their reason (the Sha) why?

What about the Goblin? Will they be able to temper their lust for destruction and mayhem?

Post-Cata set all the races at each other's throats, and especially for those just barely in-control, what happens when you ask them to deal with their own raging emotions in the face of pure rage and despair itself?
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Old 06-08-2012, 01:56 PM
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I don't think the Goblins would be particularly moved by those events. Unless there's a Sha of Greed or Sha of Crazy Suicidal Explosions, they would probably just keep trying to exploit everyone around them for personal gain.
Hey, panda man, you like the nature-y calm stuff? Hey, I've got a Turbo-water-purifier over here! This sha stuff is just like oil. Just put the contaminated water in here, it filters out... whoops, it went out green, but I can sort this stuff out before evening. So, do we have a deal? Meditation? Sure thing, I've got special headphones that isolate all sounds from the outside, with optional calming music! Only five thousand gold!
All in all, Goblins will probably be just fine. Not so sure about Worgen...
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:21 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is online now

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Yeah, usually Goblin caused destruction is more result of their own recklessness and greed than anything the Sha represent.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:30 PM
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Their love of 'splosions could fall under the sha of violence, no?
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:34 PM
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I don't think the worgen would be affected by the Sha more than, say, the feral wolves roaming Pandaria.

The Sha embody sentient emotions: anger, fear, doubt. Emotions born of reason. Moreover the Sha represent aspects of ourselves that we can control through will or discipline. Worgen run on impulse and compulsion. They act out nature, a primal instinct, not necessarily emotion. It'd be like trying to justify the Sha of General Grogginess and Irritability When You First Wake Up in the Morning.

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Their love of 'splosions could fall under the sha of violence, no?
To me, the Sha of Violence is more representative of, say, a thug shaking someone down for protection money. Using physical harm as a means to an end. I wouldn't call, shall we say, entropic actions as corrupting. Particularly when the Pandaren revere martial arts (an inferrably violent practice, regardless of form or intent). And heck, they seem to like fireworks as much as the goblins, which in true eastern fashion is shown as a way to ward off dark spirits, not encourage them.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
I don't think the worgen would be affected by the Sha more than, say, the feral wolves roaming Pandaria.

The Sha embody sentient emotions: anger, fear, doubt. Emotions born of reason. Moreover the Sha represent aspects of ourselves that we can control through will or discipline. Worgen run on impulse and compulsion. They act out nature, a primal instinct, not necessarily emotion. It'd be like trying to justify the Sha of General Grogginess and Irritability When You First Wake Up in the Morning.



To me, the Sha of Violence is more representative of, say, a thug shaking someone down for protection money. Using physical harm as a means to an end. I wouldn't call, shall we say, entropic actions as corrupting. Particularly when the Pandaren revere martial arts (an inferrably violent practice, regardless of form or intent). And heck, they seem to like fireworks as much as the goblins, which in true eastern fashion is shown as a way to ward off dark spirits, not encourage them.
Surely there must be a sha of greed?! Where would we be without our loot lust or our content panhandling?
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
I don't think the worgen would be affected by the Sha more than, say, the feral wolves roaming Pandaria.

The Sha embody sentient emotions: anger, fear, doubt. Emotions born of reason. Moreover the Sha represent aspects of ourselves that we can control through will or discipline. Worgen run on impulse and compulsion. They act out nature, a primal instinct, not necessarily emotion. It'd be like trying to justify the Sha of General Grogginess and Irritability When You First Wake Up in the Morning.
We are trained animals though, that's the whole reason why we aren't randomly punching each other because someone accidentally made eye contact with us. Worgen are our primal instincts kept at just the surface, ready to leap out because they've been heightened, exaggerated even. Take a dog that barks at things in the night. It doesn't do so because it knows exactly what's out there, but because it knows it has to defend its territory and thinks violence (or the perception of potential violence) is a perfectly acceptable course of action.

Worgen are the most likely to fall to doubt, fear, violence, the easy path, and thus I have to ask how they'll react when they're put into a situation where the very land itself hinges on their maintaining control? Will they succeed, or will some be consumed by their urges? What about being consumed by the very fear that they will go Worgen at the wrong time? Everything feeds into this, so my question is, what do you think is the possible outcome?

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To me, the Sha of Violence is more representative of, say, a thug shaking someone down for protection money. Using physical harm as a means to an end. I wouldn't call, shall we say, entropic actions as corrupting. Particularly when the Pandaren revere martial arts (an inferrably violent practice, regardless of form or intent). And heck, they seem to like fireworks as much as the goblins, which in true eastern fashion is shown as a way to ward off dark spirits, not encourage them.
The martial arts are the zen of movement, becoming a singular perfectly controlled will that can change the world around them precisely to their specifications. Fireworks are wonder. The creation of colors and sound, the excitement of beauty, not the terror of destruction.

Goblins on the other hand see violence as a viable means of getting what they want, lust. The only zen to them is the zen of a machine in harmony or an exchange in their favor. When they blow something up, they're reveling in destruction, discord of elements, terror or shock that gives them an adrenaline rush. Much as a warrior gets a blood rush in battle, a goblin gets an adrenaline rush in controlled mayhem. What happens when that rush exceeds their control? When mayhem is all they seek instead of just a part of a grand profit making plan?
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
I don't think the worgen would be affected by the Sha more than, say, the feral wolves roaming Pandaria.

The Sha embody sentient emotions: anger, fear, doubt. Emotions born of reason. Moreover the Sha represent aspects of ourselves that we can control through will or discipline. Worgen run on impulse and compulsion. They act out nature, a primal instinct, not necessarily emotion. It'd be like trying to justify the Sha of General Grogginess and Irritability When You First Wake Up in the Morning.
You know that instincts are caused by emotions?
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:22 PM
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Reliquary of Souls is tired of the Sha moving in on their schtick.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:24 PM
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But do we kill the Sha for good?
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:25 PM
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But do we kill the Sha for good?
This made me realise, we now have an enemy where the mob respawns make canon sense!
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:26 PM
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But do we kill the Sha for good?
I'm sure it will be unclear and unconcluded like most things.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:29 PM
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We are trained animals though, that's the whole reason why we aren't randomly punching each other because someone accidentally made eye contact with us. Worgen are our primal instincts kept at just the surface, ready to leap out because they've been heightened, exaggerated even. Take a dog that barks at things in the night. It doesn't do so because it knows exactly what's out there, but because it knows it has to defend its territory and thinks violence (or the perception of potential violence) is a perfectly acceptable course of action.

Worgen are the most likely to fall to doubt, fear, violence, the easy path, and thus I have to ask how they'll react when they're put into a situation where the very land itself hinges on their maintaining control? Will they succeed, or will some be consumed by their urges? What about being consumed by the very fear that they will go Worgen at the wrong time? Everything feeds into this, so my question is, what do you think is the possible outcome?
The dog is just reacting to a stimulus. It's not contemplating violence, it's not out to deliberately cause violence. Violence is merely the first reaction to a perceived threat, as it is with the worgen. The Sha of Violence embodies the opposite: deliberate, excessive violence. Violence for its own sake.

As for the second point, I would think that worgen are the least susceptible race when it comes to giving into corruption. I would think that the constant struggle within the worgen has conditioned them against those niggling, subversive nudges that tip the righteous towards damnation. If anything the worgen have been dealing with the Sha all along, in their own relative way. The worgen are dangerously close to losing control, to become a beast, this is true. But the Sha are much more cerebral than that. A feral worgen is just another beast in the wilds.

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The martial arts are the zen of movement, becoming a singular perfectly controlled will that can change the world around them precisely to their specifications. Fireworks are wonder. The creation of colors and sound, the excitement of beauty, not the terror of destruction.

Goblins on the other hand see violence as a viable means of getting what they want, lust. The only zen to them is the zen of a machine in harmony or an exchange in their favor. When they blow something up, they're reveling in destruction, discord of elements, terror or shock that gives them an adrenaline rush. Much as a warrior gets a blood rush in battle, a goblin gets an adrenaline rush in controlled mayhem. What happens when that rush exceeds their control? When mayhem is all they seek instead of just a part of a grand profit making plan?
I don't think the pandaren are very artistic when fighting for their lives against the mantid. There's a stigma around martial arts that paints it as an art form, but the pandaren very clearly use it to train warriors. They have their own armies, their own codes of war. They just use them for defense, not aggression.

I feel your view on goblins is fairly subjective. You could just as easily argue that goblin pursuits stem from a zeal of perfection, rather than mindless violence. There's always a bigger bomb, a fancier machine, a better idea. You can't just let yourself stagnate - grow and revel in your success! It's far less humble than a zen pursuit of perfection, but that doesn't mean it's automatically evil.

Goblins are driven by greed but I've found them to be among the more rational races. Everything is a business decision: logical, impersonal. Certainly not emotional (aside from greed/desire). Emotional things lead to stupid actions, and stupid actions cost you money. Even goblin sappers are portrayed as working class schmucks who are just looking for a paycheck.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:43 PM
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The dog is just reacting to a stimulus. It's not contemplating violence, it's not out to deliberately cause violence. Violence is merely the first reaction to a perceived threat, as it is with the worgen. The Sha of Violence embodies the opposite: deliberate, excessive violence. Violence for its own sake.

As for the second point, I would think that worgen are the least susceptible race when it comes to giving into corruption. I would think that the constant struggle within the worgen has conditioned them against those niggling, subversive nudges that tip the righteous towards damnation. If anything the worgen have been dealing with the Sha all along, in their own relative way. The worgen are dangerously close to losing control, to become a beast, this is true. But the Sha are much more cerebral than that. A feral worgen is just another beast in the wilds.
You give too little credit to animals and too much to ourselves. Again, we are trained animals, we can think rationally, but that doesn't mean we have to. You can train a dog not to bite you when you stare it directly in the eyes, but that's because you've forced it to use logical progression (if I bite, bad things happen) instead of instinct (just bite for dominance). By that same token, if you were to accidentally give someone the finger in America, their natural reaction is to confront you about the slight. If they're trained (by society), the confrontation is usually uneventful and involves an apology for the mistake. If they aren't, they'll act to dominate you and thus remove the perceived personal mark on their dominance. This is why gangs are so often similar to animal packs, because it's about dominance and ego.

With that all said, I do agree, some worgen will very likely be the most in control out of everyone. It's the average worgen I'm wondering about; are they going to break out in violence or is their habit of control going to make them the calmest in the room? For those who are relatively calm, will they succumb to the fear of losing control? Will they exile themselves out of doubt?

Quote:
I don't think the pandaren are very artistic when fighting for their lives against the mantid. There's a stigma around martial arts that paints it as an art form, but the pandaren very clearly use it to train warriors. They have their own armies, their own codes of war. They just use them for defense, not aggression.
As I said, it's about control. I didn't say it was an art form, but rather a means to create harmony between oneself and the world. This zen is such that when they move in the world and affect it, they maintain harmony with it despite how violent their actions might be. In essence, they're minimizing their footprint, creating as little potential for discord as possible because it's the only thing that keeps the Sha at bay.

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I feel your view on goblins is fairly subjective. You could just as easily argue that goblin pursuits stem from a zeal of perfection, rather than mindless violence. There's always a bigger bomb, a fancier machine, a better idea. You can't just let yourself stagnate - grow and revel in your success! It's far less humble than a zen pursuit of perfection, but that doesn't mean it's automatically evil.

Goblins are driven by greed but I've found them to be among the more rational races. Everything is a business decision: logical, impersonal. Certainly not emotional (aside from greed/desire). Emotional things lead to stupid actions, and stupid actions cost you money. Even goblin sappers are portrayed as working class schmucks who are just looking for a paycheck.
I've seen both sides of the coin, that's why I'm asking for the average. What is the average Goblin response when things go boom? What is the outlier response? Are there enough outliers that it's a significant statistic (aka something we'll see enough to have potential for changing the equation)?
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:50 PM
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You know that instincts are caused by emotions?
wat

Granted, I have not done excessive study in the fields of affect and emotion, but that sounds very far out there. Is there a journal or something you could provide on the subject?
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:05 PM
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wat

Granted, I have not done excessive study in the fields of affect and emotion, but that sounds very far out there. Is there a journal or something you could provide on the subject?
No, no he can't, because we'd both know about it before him. The cycle of sensation and emotion is still in no way understood. Instincts are part and parcel of learning, which is right now still in its dark ages (getting lighter) because we're still working on models proposed before the advent of easily accessible MRIs. Hell even MRIs are suspect considering it's not tracking chemical reactions and electrical impulses, but blood flow to parts of the brain.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:11 PM
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Would be cool if we had a group of worgen who go crazy (Like how animals go crazy around undead) and you gotta help them calm down, but since we see three worgen this expansion, one gets killed a minute after you see him and the other two are vendors, I doubt we will have any decent development with Worgen.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:58 PM
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While one may argue that Goblins revel in violence, they do not perform for the purpose of violence. It's merely a mean to the end - they do not explode with a conscious, malicious intent - they see it as a fun gag that makes everyone around him laugh with glee. Perhaps they don't even empathise with lethal victims of their bigger bombs, because WHABOOM - they must have loved an explosion that big, night elf or not! That doesn't sound to me like an MO of any Sha, not even Sha of Violence which would provoke a malicious, intentionally harmful violence not (what is in the mind of the individual) fireworks.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:27 PM
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wat

Granted, I have not done excessive study in the fields of affect and emotion, but that sounds very far out there. Is there a journal or something you could provide on the subject?
Yeah i jumped again a few steps there... Have to be more careful on that.

I based my facts on a guy's life that stopped having any emotions because of brain damage, and ignore basic instincts like hunger and stuff.

Leaps of Logic happens
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:57 PM
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So here's a question for you, especially in regards to race development post-Cata. What happens when you take a highly feral, barely in control race, [... ] and whip it together with even a touch of Sha?
Not much. At least, not any more than anyone else.

That said, if Blizzard were to deliver on the supposed ferality of the worgen, I expect to see a lot of the more violent sha around.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:08 PM
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The worgen will be fine. I'd be surprised if we saw more than two of them throughout Mists.
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:30 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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The worgen will be fine. I'd be surprised if we saw more than two of them throughout Mists.
My sentiments as well, too early to call but I doubt Blizzard will give them anything new to explore that doesn't involve Gilneas.

Kinda a shame really, mostly because I think Krasarang would have been a pretty ideal spot to place them, what with being a dark and shadowy forest and all.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:36 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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I'd see it as being more of an issue for death knights then the worgen and the goblins.

Besdies, wasn't that whole ritual suppose to take care of all of those feral control issues?
They went through that balancing ritual and no longer have to worry about controlling the beast within and the control issues therein and the worgen that we have met in game and in Wolfheart don't come across as raging beast struggling to keep themselves under control, very mellow fellows.
Blizzard threw the whole "highly feral, barely in control race" out of the game when they put the ritual in. The worgen that currently make up the Alliance are not feral and are in full control of themselves. That is why they went through the ritual so they wouldn't have the problems seen in the wolfcult. Tobias mentions that he does struggle with the beast within, but so far he is the exception rather then the rule and ARM's post makes you think even about that.

Besides, they have Gilneas to fight over and like the previous posters said, it's not like they are going to show up in any meaningful way besides, unless the night elves tell them to, or there are some druidic healing of forests or whatever.

Don't see the goblins as being the Horde's biggest sha problem... that title would go to those walking balls of negativity that we call the Forsaken and the anger issues of both Garrosh and Varian when they set foot on Pandaria.
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:44 AM
Afaslizo Afaslizo is offline

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Death Knights? The last time I checked it wasn't dks having a ressource of rage.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:19 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Death Knights? The last time I checked it wasn't dks having a resource of rage.
Rage isn't the only "negative" emotion that the Sha latch onto. There is also fear, and doubt among others.

Remember the whole "DK's need to inflict pain or else they go bat shyt insane" for example? There's a lot of torment tied up in that.
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