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  #26  
Old 06-06-2012, 11:14 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The high elves in Outland were suspended in the twisting nether. They could probably pluck arcane energy right from the atmosphere.
Wow. So they come back home, fine and dandy, and see what happened to the Blood Elves.

It's almost like the reverse of Vietnam vets coming home.
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  #27  
Old 06-06-2012, 11:54 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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Jep, there was one Alliance High Elven Farstrider named Theloria Shadecloak, who said in his gossip text, that he was disgusted that Farstriders allied with Keal'thas and that here dream of coming home will never come true.

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The opening of the Dark Portal brought news of my people's news. In a way, my exile shielded me from sharing in their downfall, but to see the Farstriders throw their lot in with Kael'thas...

I never imagined my one-time brethren capable of such a thing.

The homecoming I once dreamt of will never happen. This forest is the only home I have left.
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  #28  
Old 06-06-2012, 12:15 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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And Ogres... they're HUGE in this book!
I never quite caught that, but that's true... The ogres in Outland in WoW are also much bigger than the ones you can find in Azeroth.

/tinfoilhat
Maybe something about Azeroth shrinks them down if they stay too long, and just in ToD it had been a short enough time that they were still Draenor-sized?

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My favorite Alliance character is definitely Khadgar. If Jeff Grubb wrote him originally like that in The Last Guardian, I think it's going to be a great joy to read.
Mm. Khadgar is written really well in TLG, though I do prefer Medivh's story personally.

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Also, it's fun to see Prince Kael'thas and Kel'Thuzad as rulers in the Kirin Tor.
I myself really enjoyed the small cameos from Krasus in Dalaran. But that can probably be attributed to the War of the Ancients trilogy being my first real taste of the lore.

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The Turalyon and Alleria romance is... well, clumsy. And far too rushed in terms of their instant infatuation with each other, considering I know they'd have a whole other book to develop it.
It, unfortunately, doesn't improve very much in BtDP.
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  #29  
Old 06-06-2012, 12:43 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It, unfortunately, doesn't improve very much in BtDP.


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Sure enough, a lithe young woman darted toward him a moment later, her travel cloak's hood tossed back despite the downpour, the tips of her long pointed ears piercing the golden mane that surrounded her lovely face.
Well, I guess that's not so bad...

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Originally Posted by The next sentence
Somehow the rain was ignoring her, falling around her instead of on her, and Turalyon was not sure if it was elven magic or just the sheer power of her natural beauty.
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  #30  
Old 06-06-2012, 03:33 PM
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Yup, and more to come after that. It's honestly kind of painful, but that's just one part of the book so it's not a huge deal.

---

On another note: I feel like this is relevant to the thread (also it's really cool ).

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  #31  
Old 06-09-2012, 09:36 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle, avoiding a double-post View Post
I had never seen that gorgeous homage. Thank you for linking it.
NEW POST!

Just read up to Gul'dan's death. And I think Rend Blackhand might be my favorite Horde character in this book so far.

The writing here is probably the kind of thing that makes some people mad... but Rend totally has his head on his shoulders in this book. He's calm and realistic as he leads his clan in battle. On the one hand, it's the kind of thing I love. Because it only does more to make the demon-corrupted Orcs seem not that different than the uncorrupted Orcs. Rend Blackhand isn't a frothing, enraged Orc who only wants to kill kill kill. He doesn't even seem to think about betraying Doomhammer himself, despite Orgrim being the one who killed his father. At least, not in this book. He receives and order, he goes to follow it, and he makes a prudent judgment when the situation takes an unexpected turn (Gul'dan being destroyed by demons), ordering his soldiers to not pursue into the tomb wildly for the sake of mindless killing.

And perhaps that's just poor writing. Maybe Rend was supposed to be a crazed rabid killing machine in this novel, for the sake of continuity. But he wasn't. And what can I say? I like it.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-09-2012 at 09:39 PM..
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  #32  
Old 06-09-2012, 09:41 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Trollbane is awesome in the book
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  #33  
Old 06-09-2012, 10:56 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
NEW POST!

Just read up to Gul'dan's death. And I think Rend Blackhand might be my favorite Horde character in this book so far.

The writing here is probably the kind of thing that makes some people mad... but Rend totally has his head on his shoulders in this book. He's calm and realistic as he leads his clan in battle. On the one hand, it's the kind of thing I love. Because it only does more to make the demon-corrupted Orcs seem not that different than the uncorrupted Orcs. Rend Blackhand isn't a frothing, enraged Orc who only wants to kill kill kill. He doesn't even seem to think about betraying Doomhammer himself, despite Orgrim being the one who killed his father. At least, not in this book. He receives and order, he goes to follow it, and he makes a prudent judgment when the situation takes an unexpected turn (Gul'dan being destroyed by demons), ordering his soldiers to not pursue into the tomb wildly for the sake of mindless killing.

And perhaps that's just poor writing. Maybe Rend was supposed to be a crazed rabid killing machine in this novel, for the sake of continuity. But he wasn't. And what can I say? I like it.
I think that Rend was intentionally written that way. His appearance in WoW, in the Blackrock Spire dungeon, has him saying things like:

"Flee while you still have a chance, mortals. You will pray for a swift death should I enter the arena."
"It appears as if I will have to step in and take care of you myself."
"That will surely save me some work."

He certainly enjoys fighting:
"Sire, let me join the fray! I shall tear their spines out with my bare hands!"
"I will tear off your limbs and use them to beat you into submission!"

But he's not a blood-crazed lunatic. Or, he's at least capable of restraining himself.

Last edited by Reignac; 06-09-2012 at 10:58 PM..
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  #34  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:19 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Finished Tides of Darkness. WTF to you, Doomhammer's honor. WTF to you, Turalyon's revelation.

Orgrim, oh Orgrim. I always thought Gul'dan's betrayal was so bad because the Stormreavers and Twilight's Hammers were needed to take Lordaeron. I assumed you didn't have enough forces to conquer the city without them.

But no, it seems you yourself decided spanking Gul'dan ASAP was more important than finishing the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventeen
Gul'dan's treachery was bad enough, but he had taken other orcs with him. They were setting their own goals above those of the Horde, their own selfish desires above the needs of their people. That was what had driven Doomhammer to kill Blackhand and take control in the first place, and he had vowed to end the corruption and restore his people's honor. This betrayal could not be allowed to stand unanswered. No matter what it cost them. Or him. [. . .]

"Pursue the traitors and destroy them to the last orc, leaving their bodies to sink into the water's depths."

"But--this city!" Rend protested. "The war!"

"Our people's honor is at stake!" Doomhammer bellowed, raising his hammer to attack position and growling at the other chieftain, silently daring him to defy the orders. "We must not allow them to go unpunished!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineteen
Doomhammer knew what his Second was thinking--if he had not sent the other clans after Gul'dan in the first place, this would not be an issue now.

Doomhammer ground his teeth together. Why was it no one else among his people understood the reasons behind his decision? He had seen the same look from every other orc these past few days, ever since he had ordered the retreat from Capital City. [. . .] They had almost won! Another day, two at the most, and the city would have cracked. And then he had sent the army away, leaving them too weak to continue. [. . .]

And he blamed Gul'dan for it all. Even if the warlock had not personally killed the Horde warriors, it was his betrayal that had forced Doomhammer to split his forces.

And he had been forced. He had made personal vows to the ancestral spirits that he would not allow his race to continue as it had. He would fight the corruption, the blood lust, the savagery at every turn, using every weapon at his command. Winning the war did not matter. His own survival meant nothing. Without honor they were mere animals, less than animals because they had the potential to be so much more and had a noble history they had thrown away for blood and combat and hatred. If he had allowed Gul'dan to escape unpunished he would have been guilty of allowing such selfishness, even encouraging it, and would have been partially responsible for the further degradation of the entire race.

At least this way he could say he had done his best, Doomhammer decided.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineteen
"You made the right choice," Kilrogg assured him. "I too know the depths of Gul'dan's treachery. He would have taken us back to the days before the Portal opened, when we were nearly mad with rage and hunger and desperation." He nodded. "Whatever else happens, you have given our people back their honor."
In the next battle, Doomhammer sends the Burning Blade to attack the Alliance. The Burning Freakin' Blade. As in, closest things to Fel Orcs you'll find on Azeroth.

He also still had Death Knights in his army. Death Knights... created by Gul'dan... which are basically warlock and necromancy making love. And he'd surely still be using Gul'dan-created Ogre-Magi and warlock-enslaved Dragons, if he still had access to them. Probably the warlocked Sea Turtles too, if they had been in this book.

Despite all the talk about not being "mere animals", about being above the "blood and combat and hatred", Doomhammer's been pleased with the Horde slaughtering and torturing innocents, and he himself has ordered kingdoms and races wiped out with no one left alive. So...?

So it seems like... it seems Doomhammer had to throw the war and punish Gul'dan, because Gully was being selfish?.

~ ~ ~ ~

You know what I think would have made this better? If Doomhammer had been afraid of how powerful Gul'dan might have become, if he succeeded.

"We have to stop Gul'dan, now!"
"But what about the siege? Why don't we sack Lordaeron first?"
"I know Gul'dan is looking for something powerful. To betray me so openly, he must be confident that it will make him unstoppable, or at least able to defeat us and the Alliance both. Something tells me we must stop him before he finds what he's looking for. One day could make all the difference!"


And that way, there might be more significance to these lines...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventeen
"Damn him," Gul'dan muttered. "Why did he always have to be so quick to make decisions? Another day and we would have been here and done before they arrived."
There you go. Threat of Gul'dan leading an army into the tomb, killing its demons, and obtaining the Eye of Sargeras. Doomhammer senses danger and reacts. Crisis averted.

But NOOO. Doomhammer doesn't fear the thought that Gul'dan might reach near omnipotence. He doesn't worry that Gul'dan might become too powerful if he isn't stopped soon. He worries... because Gul'dan is being selfish, and he's caused other orcs to join him in the selfishness, and if Doomhammer waited one or two days to defeat Lordaeron first then that would mean he approved of the selfishness. And that could turn the Horde back to being like animals.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I guess it's all incidental in my mind, anyway. I still don't think sacking Lordaeron City would have ended the war. Neither did Terenas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixteen
But even if Capital City fell, if the Alliance won in the end it would be a small price to pay.
If Rosenberg wanted us to believe that the entire war hinged on whether Lordaeron City fell, he was sending mixed signals.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~

But anyway, yes of course I had some problems with the book. I wasn't fond of how neither the Orcs nor the Trolls had much naval experience, with the Orcs only constructing basic transports and the Trolls not even liking water. This despite the fact that Warcraft II: Tides Tides Tides of Darkness was very heavy on the naval element.

But I can honestly say that I was never bored with the book. If I had actually sat down to read huge chunks at once, I probably could've finished it in a night or two. I liked most of the Elves and Trolls portrayal. Stromgarde was a boss. Toward the end I was thinking that the Dwarves and Ironforge weren't going to show up in this book... and then they stormed in at the end and dominated like none other. Uther actually answers Lothar by saying, "My lord?"... as if he were a unit from the game! Other fun things, though I don't remember them all. It was a fun book.

I look forward to the others.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-10-2012 at 01:25 AM..
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  #35  
Old 06-10-2012, 02:38 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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Yeah, the missing naval elements were the main criticism to this book. Blame it on the fact that Rosenberg had to squeeze anything in one Novel.

And yes, the Bronzebeard brothers cameo was awesome.

I personally suggest that you read Rise of of Horde and The Last Guardian next. I know that you might prefer Beyond the Dark Portal, but believe me. You will enjoy the book much more if you read these books before.

Oh, forgot one thing:

Did you like the reference at the end with the statues?

Last edited by Vineyard; 06-10-2012 at 02:41 AM..
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  #36  
Old 06-10-2012, 06:23 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Yeah, the missing naval elements were the main criticism to this book. Blame it on the fact that Rosenberg had to squeeze anything in one Novel.

And yes, the Bronzebeard brothers cameo was awesome.

I personally suggest that you read Rise of of Horde and The Last Guardian next. I know that you might prefer Beyond the Dark Portal, but believe me. You will enjoy the book much more if you read these books before.
Oh, I do plan to start with Rise of the Horde and go in order now.

Quote:
Oh, forgot one thing:

Did you like the reference at the end with the statues?
A little bit. The setup for the sequel is fun. But a tiny part of me thinks: "What will you ever do to deserve statues? Well, one of you did already take down the Horde's leader and lead the Alliance to victory... and the other one of you did just seemingly destroy the Dark Portal singlehandedly."
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  #37  
Old 06-15-2012, 07:12 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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So, are you already reading RotH? Sorry if I am too curious.
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  #38  
Old 06-15-2012, 10:19 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So, are you already reading RotH? Sorry if I am too curious.
Only the introduction so far... I've kind of been slacking on it. Well, it looks like I'm finally going to get a better grasp on who exactly these Draenei space aliens are.

If you guys wanted to talk about something in these books amongst yourselves, feel free to. Don't worry about spoiling me---Wowpedia's already the biggest spoiler of all. And the thread doesn't have to be about "see how BaronGrackle reacts to these books." Though that's okay if it ends up that way. :-D
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  #39  
Old 06-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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Well, you are a big Second War fan and these books are not a mere summary of the known History of Warcraft, but shows the protagonists a fleshed out characters.

And reading all the books from RoTH to BtDP really shows the path that these characters go. Which is the major joy of these books.

@Draenei: The Book gives them a decent backstory. And while the reason for the Orcs war against them is a bit different than was told in HoW (which still isn't updated^^), it's still good read. And in some ways, the story actually an update of the WC II orc back story. It didn't completly retcon the backstory of WC III, but makes a decent mix of both backgrounds. (There was only a minor thing that still bugs me a bit, but maybe Omacron can find that out.^^)
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  #40  
Old 06-15-2012, 12:29 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Personally, I feel that the Draenei are better off after the retcon than they were before. I mean maybe it's just me, but I really really enjoy them in WoW - when they're not just sitting on their asses in the Exodar, anyway.

Plus it gave us Unbroken.

---

So Rise of the Horde! I suppose if I had anything negative to say about it, it's that we didn't see enough of the other Draenor race - the Arakkoa. I don't think they were even mentioned at all. Ner'zhul may have been written a little too sympathetic, as well.
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  #41  
Old 06-15-2012, 12:35 PM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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... it's that we didn't see enough of the other Draenor race - the Arakkoa. I don't think they were even mentioned at all.
Well, at least they have a (very) little cameo in BtDP.

Quote:
Ner'zhul may have been written a little too sympathetic, as well.
Maybe, but so his downfall and corruption becomes even more serious. His story was imo. very good continued in BtdP. He really was once a good guy and in the end he became the first Lich King.
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  #42  
Old 06-15-2012, 02:53 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Well, at least they have a (very) little cameo in BtDP.
I loved that guy, I really did. I think his name was Krizzik? So much fun.

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Maybe, but so his downfall and corruption becomes even more serious. His story was imo. very good continued in BtdP. He really was once a good guy and in the end he became the first Lich King.
I do like Ner'zhul being written as more than completely evil, don't get me wrong. It's clear he had good intentions and Kil'jaeden used him and broke him. But, I mean, compare how the guy was at the end of RotH to his characterization in BtDP (book); he's completely different. Sure there's some hesitating in BtDP but he wasn't a sad old man like at the end of RotH.

And then his time as the Lich King has him unrelentingly evil. Though that may be attributed to Kil'jaeden's torture.

I guess it's not so much Ner'zhul being sympathetic in RotH that bugs me, it's more the inconsistency. Especially since both books had Golden writing them.

Last edited by Reignac; 06-15-2012 at 02:56 PM..
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  #43  
Old 06-15-2012, 03:21 PM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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And then his time as the Lich King has him unrelentingly evil. Though that may be attributed to Kil'jaeden's torture.
Not completly. His transformation was shown slowly in many parts of BtDP.

Quote:
Ner'zhul replied shortly, feeling the power coiled within him, more power than he had felt in years. I was af if tapping into the skull's energies has awaken something deep within him, something he had never even realized he has been missing. And it felt...good
And not to spoil to much for BG, but later in the novel, were Ner'zhul used his Dark Shaman powers for the first time:

Quote:
He would die before admitting it, but he found himself surprised by his own power. It had come so easily, and was so strong. And produced such impressive results. It felt...good.
He was powerful again and enjoyed every moment of it. We talk about the once most powerful orc shaman the orcs on Draenor had, who suddenly lost all of his powers and was powerless for more then a decade.

But the main moment of the novel was in the end were Ner'zhul, well snapped and gave a shit about his guilt and what the orcs though about him. I don't want to quote it, since BG should read it himself, but this was basicly the end of the old Ner'zhul. (And one of my favorite scenes in the novel.)

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  #44  
Old 06-21-2012, 10:50 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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When I finish these, do you guys recommend Day of the Dragon? There's something enchanting about knowing that it's the first Warcraft novel, written before Warcraft III (like The Last Guardian, apparently).

I'm also guessing that it's sort of an epilogue to the Second War and the Old Era, in the same sense that Lord of the Clans is probably a prologue to the Third War and the Thrall Era.

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  #45  
Old 06-21-2012, 11:06 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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Personally, I feel that the Draenei are better off after the retcon than they were before. I mean maybe it's just me, but I really really enjoy them in WoW - when they're not just sitting on their asses in the Exodar, anyway.

Plus it gave us Unbroken.
I think (as a fairly new WoW-player) that the Draenei are cool if they indeed do something, and unbroken was an incredible story, it really makes you hate the orcs.
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  #46  
Old 06-21-2012, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
When I finish these, do you guys recommend Day of the Dragon? There's something enchanting about knowing that it's the first Warcraft novel, written before Warcraft III (like The Last Guardian, apparently).

I'm also guessing that it's sort of an epilogue to the Second War and the Old Era, in the same sense that Lord of the Clans is probably a prologue to the Third War and the Thrall Era.
Most of the Warcraft books are pretty readable. Some better than others. I personally didn't enjoy Day of the Dragon, thought it was kinda uninteresting, but others did like it. The only Warcraft book that I would actively encourage you not to read is Night of the Dragon. The rest are probably worth your money.
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  #47  
Old 06-21-2012, 11:31 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I'm also guessing that it's sort of an epilogue to the Second War and the Old Era, in the same sense that Lord of the Clans is probably a prologue to the Third War and the Thrall Era.
Only a little bit. There is also a little prequel storyline to it in BtDP. But it's basicly Rhonin and Krasus destroying the Demon Soul, freeing Alexstrasza and Deathwing getting his but kicked by the other Aspects.

To be honest, it was more a Prequel to Cata in terms of storyline, since it expanded Deathwings background. (which was further continued in WoTA.)
Quote:
The only Warcraft book that I would actively encourage you not to read is Night of the Dragon. The rest are probably worth your money.
Circle of Hatred was also bad. The only good thing was the reintroduction of Aegwynn. The Burning Blade Cult storyline was crap and the Kirin Tor being a bunch of sexist was totally OOC.

My personal suggestion for your next read would be "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King."

Oh, and did you enjoy RotH so far?

Last edited by Vineyard; 06-21-2012 at 11:37 AM..
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  #48  
Old 06-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Originally Posted by Vineyard View Post
My personal suggestion for your next read would be "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King."
I'm not so sure about that. It's a good book but the vast majority of it is nothing new, just going over Arthas's story in WC3. What is new is really, really good but it's mostly just retreading that.

I'd recommend the War of the Ancients, personally. Richard Knaak's word is... dividing among the fanbase, but WotA is personally my favorite of any non-game Warcraft stuff.
Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects is also rather good if you can stomach Thrall being made out to be the "World Shaman".
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  #49  
Old 06-21-2012, 12:17 PM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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Yeah, half of RoTLK was indeed a slightly expanded version of the WC III story.
But in the first half Arthas gets a quite good backstory and there are also tiny tieins to the other novels.

ToTA is good, but it might be a good ides to read "The Shattering" first.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:40 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Oh, and did you enjoy RotH so far?
So far yes, though it's still early on. Consider that I've also spent a little bit of time playing through the free parts of World of Warcraft, as well as replaying bits of Warcraft II, playing parts of Warcraft III that I had only cheated through before, and eventually playing through Frozen Throne since I've only watched the cutscenes on Youtube so far. And I also found my old Starcraft CD, and most of that game I only cheated my way through in the past.

With the other books, we'll see. Arthas and Thrall were never really favorites of mine, and I kind of get bored when reading about Night Elf lore (even in the Warcraft III manual) and the continent of Kalimdor in general. As a related example, I'm sort of a huge Star Wars fan, but only in the Rebellion Era and a bit of time after that. My eyes glaze over with the "Clone Wars" cartoon and the newer "Old Republic" stuff, and that's why the current MMORPG doesn't catch my interest at all. True that I did really enjoy the original Knights of the Old Republic game, but that was an exception to the rule.

If it's not in my time period zone, then it's like trying to read about the Siege of Jericho when you're a fan of the American Civil War.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-21-2012 at 12:43 PM..
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