maybe, but if that was true we'd have seen something of Thrall in pandaria already given the time after it takes place.

Another thought though, what if.. though I don't believe it myself, what if something happens to Jaina down the line, and Garrosh actually finishes her off, some big war between them, and Jaina end up dead. This would make for the alliances final push, and enrage Thrall enough he wants Garrosh dead.

__________________

*their

__________________

really?

__________________

If Thrall was secluded with Aggra then i am not to sure he would have found out at the same time as everyone else. He could get told in the final patch though and join in the Civil War against Garrosh and be at the final raid.

I guess so. still, seems kind of odd given how quickly he got word of Cairnes death.

__________________

Yes.

__________________

Precisely.

To me it seems as if they've realized that writing two realistic factions who go to war over complex geopolitical reasons with neither side being "right" was simply too hard, so they went the easy route and just demonized one side while saintifying the other.

For example Garrosh or anyone else being a rotten apple on his own is not a bad thing, bad people seize power all the time, mistakes are made all the time in reality too so there is no fault with that, however what we get to see is that almost every other orc had a transformation the moment Garrosh seized power going from a simple and honest people to bloodthirsty bad guys. And this has happened on to the Horde as a whole, take a look at the pre and post Cata Forsaken. Everywhere we see loss of depth and an emerging pattern of the Horde becoming the obvious bad guys.

Similarly on the Alliance side they get to lose any moral ambiguousness they might have had. Take a look at the descriptions of the original Battlegrounds, in them the Alliance certainly doesn't look like the clear cut goodguys, and that was good. But in Cata they keep getting more and more high horse and victim moments designed to make them look like the better faction. Look at the battles in which the Alliance fought, there is always a caveat which ameliorates the horrors of war to give them that good guy shine.

And that is bad for both of the factions! I mean people look at what we have now, superheroes and villains running around spouting black and white garbage at each other, the only thing different then some random superhero setting is the scenery. Bleh...

__________________

Sorry, how has Garrosh hurt Thrall over how he's hurt Jaina? Or how he's hurt Varian? Or how he's hurt Tyrande? Or how he's hurt Vol'jin? Or how he's hurt Baine? Or how he's hurt the players?

How exactly has Thrall suffered from Garrosh's reign, keeping in mind that Thrall is the one who put him in charge. What element here makes Thrall deserving of the kill aside from your fanboyism?

And Blizzard is at the point where if they went "nah Thrall gets it all when we said he wouldn't it was just a red herring" it would be deemed acceptable to the playerbase. Contrary to your belief your hard-on for Thrall is not common, and the average player on both the Alliance and the Horde is sick of Thrall.

Give me a break. The only reason you're upset with it is because it's your faction being demonized. If it was the Alliance being demonized you'd be singing praise for Blizzard's "revolutionary and deep" storylines.

The Alliance was never "morally ambiguous." People seem to for some reason be acting as though there's some "good ol' days" when the Alliance was "just as bad" as the Horde but this largely seems limited to people who treat the Horde as presented in Warcraft 3 as the rule rather than the exception when everything else we've seen screams that it's the latter.

The Alliance has always been the faction of superheroes while the Horde is the faction full of anti-heroes, and the anti-heroes are far more likely to cross the line than the superheroes.

__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies… strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night… live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II

Fixing his mistake?

__________________

Killing Garrosh and saying "lol thanks for keeping the throne warm" and then sitting down again wouldn't be fixing his mistake. Fixing his mistake would require an element of sacrifice that would not be present here.

If you put a tyrant in power responsible for the deaths of millions going and killing him and taking his position for yourself isn't "fixing the mistake" because the damage is already done.

And as I've said, there are multitudes of characters who have actually been hurt by Garrosh who have a far more legitimate gripe with him than Thrall's, whose gripe basically boils down to "making me look bad."

__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies… strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night… live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II

Wouldn't it? His mistake was putting Garrosh in charge, and by taking him out of power he'd be fixing that mistake.



Now, personally, I don't think it matters who kills Garrosh.

__________________

No, it wouldn't be fixing his mistake because the damage would already have been done.

If someone burns down your house but manages to stop it from burning the foundations as well would he have "fixed his mistake?"

You want to know who should get the killing blow? The same people who got the killing blow on the Lich King. The Players.

"You have slain Garrosh Hellscream!" should be able to appear in your combat log, because the only reason Garrosh is even being killed at all is because the players despise him.

The question here is "who will be Warchief?" and reinstalling Thrall is insulting to both factions, the Horde because it makes it look like they'll go on a murderous rampage if anyone who isn't a human in Orc clothing leads them and the Alliance because not only do they look like patsy's for working with Thrall in Cataclysm but because Thrall's leadership was really no better for the Alliance than Garrosh's.

__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies… strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night… live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II

It's not about fixing his mistake. But more like to redeem his mistake. Of course Thrall will want to do something. And Fighting Garrosh is the easiest way.

But yeah, I agree with you. I think either Jaina or Vol'jin would be a more suitable role to strike the killing blow. Oh wait, I think Varok is a good choice as well. Remember what he said to Garrosh, something like "if you lead the Horde down to the dark path again, I will be the first one to kill you."

He's got a bit more than that to hold against Garrosh, considering Cairne was one of Thrall's closest friends.

It's the easiest way to start. The idea that everything is buddy buddy after Garrosh is killed (or deposed, but still allowed to live) is an affront to just about everything that Blizzard has done to "get the Alliance pumped up" for the war. Especially if the Horde gets to keep what they gained through their conquest.

"Sorry I put this asshole in charge of my gang who went and stole your house from you! But with this asshole dead, everything's fine. By the way, your house is really nice. We're cool now, right?"

__________________
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Since when is redemption easy? Redemption involves sacrifice, and Thrall waltzing in, ninjaing the raids kill, and then sitting down on the throne, telling Horde players to bow and Alliance players to GTFO will not be a satisfactory conclusion to this whole mess.

To reiterate what I said in my edit, the best scenario would be for the PLAYERS to get the killing blow, with Varian/Jaina helping Alliance players and Vol'jin/Baine helping Horde players.

__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies… strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night… live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II

As I'm somewhat of a catalyst for the current argument, I'll throw some cents in!

Remember, Metzen and I had the quoted conversation the night before BlizzCon, almost half a year ago. The blue quote was far more recent, and its entirely possible the negative reaction to Thrall changed Metzen's mind/changed enough employees minds it forced his hand.

As for Thrall killing Garrosh, Metzen said "Thrall is gonna have to paddle him", I assume that means kill because its almost unheard of for bad guy fights in WoW to end with anything other than the bad guy dead unless there's going to be a setback.

Considering how things appear to have changed, I wonder if its okay to mention that other part of the conversation I had censored previously.

the killing blow should rightfully go to the players, Jaina and Vol'Jin.

I've said it before, and I will say it again - Thrall, by his stupid decision to put Garrosh in charge, is indirectly responsible for the atrocities that Garrosh has committed.

He's a war criminal by proxy, in my humble opinion. He's got about as much right to kill Garrosh as Varian does for killing, say, Vol'Jin.

but who wants to listen to my opinion anyway?

__________________

Ech. I'd say keep it mum for now. No need to cause another riot.

You can toss it in when keeping it has become obsolete, says I.

There should be no 'insert faction leader here' kill for each faction. That creates canonical problems. Either you have the players kill them or one faction leader and it's absolute, but have Baine, Jaina, Varok, Vol'jin, whoever the hell in for BOTH SIDES of the story.

I don't want "which side is the true one?" shit.

It should definitely be Tirion.

__________________

"For the sins of the Forsaken I see it only right that you pay, Garrosh!"

__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies… strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night… live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II

Varok was the first to promise a Garrosh kill, clearly, BY RIGHTS, the kill should be his and his alone!

__________________

Watch it end up being Uncle Gao Stormstout.

__________________