I approve of the CoolMagicalDinosaurMouth Clan.


Say what?!! Are you sure? I didn't see it on the wiki page, and Rise of the Horde never mentions them as a clan, despite mentioning several other clans and having scenes with Rend and Maim.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Tides of Darkness reshaped things so that the Stormreaver Clan was invented just before the Second War, and it basically just had warlocks under Gul'dan.


EDIT: @Dragonmaw emblem-staff: They could have crafted that staff at anytime, methinks.

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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

But why would they change their stuff to Azeroth dragon if their name came from something else? Just like Chinese people don't change their dragon to western style.

Because OMG WE ACTUALLY GOT SOME CRAZY FLYING MAGICAL DINOSAURS NOW THEY CAN BREATHE FIRE FOOOOOOOOM DUDE WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS OUR WHOLE LIVES WE GOTTA MAKE THIS OUR SCHTICK!!!!

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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

That's why Rise of the Horde disapointed me. It raised more questions than it answered, and things like the Blackrock coincidence were just beyond ridiculous.

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The Eastern Kingdoms don't have any chimeras. When the Chimeramaw Clan translated their name to common they chose dragon because dragons were the creatures that resembled chimeras the most.

Hmm, strange. I was sure they were re-invented in RotH, but I re-checked the text and no Black Tooth founs. Must have misplaces them with the Blackrocks.

This thread is now a poll. Vote for your favorite clan. My apologies if your favorite didn't make the list; ten is a very small number.

Here's a refresher: Orc Clans


I voted for Bleeding Hollow because of awesome. So should you.

Yeah, so I said a few wrong things in my post earlier... somehow I forgot it, but the Warcraft II manual was the first source to say that the Black Tooth Grin was founded before the Horde passed into Azeroth. I suppose the assumption would be that Rend and Maim seized power in the pre-existing clan, after Doomhammer took over. The Last Guardian changed nothing when it reaffirmed this. However, as we've discovered, Rise of the Horde never mentions the clan. So who knows?

And likewise, the Warcraft II manual is the one that states Gul'dan formed the Stormreaver Clan after Doomhammer took power, to protect himself from the new warchief. The Last Guardian therefore deviated when it said the Stormreavers were around before Doomhammer gained power, but Tides of Darkness set the old lore back in place.

Heh. I don't say that very often, do I?

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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

Almost voted other for Rageroar. Went with Bleeding Hollow.

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Originally Posted by Fojar Leviathon you're seriously the worst mod.

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo Go back to being the worst mod in the universe.

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Originally Posted by Anansi Scrolls of Lore Rule #61: Leviathon is the worst Mod.

I would've added every clan, including Flowerpicker, if I'd been able to.

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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

No stormreaver?

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

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Yeah, I know. But it almost seemed redundant with Twilight's Hammer on the list, and Twilight's Hammer has actually had stuff recently. It's like the Black Tooth Grin Clan, which did way more stuff in Warcraft II than the Dragonmaw (originally Rend and Maim were the ones who masterminded the capture of Alexstrasza for the Dragonmaw Clan--you can read it in the manual under the Dragon description), but a lot of that is changed by now.

I threw in Laughing Skull because it was terrific to suddenly hear the Orc briefer and play as an Orc base during your Alliance campaign. ALLIANCE BIAS!!

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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

I voted for the Blackrock clan. Mostly because I really really like Redridge, Burning Steppes, and Blackrock Spire, heh.

But also, Eitrigg is a Blackrock isn't he? Eitrigg is awesome. Therefore his clan is awesome.

I always liked the Dragonmaw Clan and rejoiced greatly when they joined the new Horde. A pity old man Mor'ghor had to be killed.

As for the others:

Blackrock clan always intrigued me because of its shifty characterization. In WC2 they were the main clan, in WC3 they were the poster "evil orcs", and in WoW they claimed the throne of warchief for themselves (even though the union never happened, this was probably the closest we had to the Horde Civil War, especially back when table-RPG lore described the Blackrocks as being a rebellious, but still a part of the Eastern Horde). Last, but not least, all of these versions are more or less different organizations, with a great number of the clan joining Thrall's united orcs.

Stormreaver I liked mostly because of its name and their unique units in WC3. In Maiev's second mission I went to the Mercenary Camp and started creating a Stormreaver army! With help of their night elf allies, the Stormreavers had their revenge against the water-loving naga!

Durotar is not a clan. It is described as a kingdom, a nation, in fact, it's everything the clain isn't. Thrall actually advanced orcish society pretty far into future, even if he was supposed to return to old ways. But, as you know, the best way to introduce something new is to tell the people that you're returning to old. Clans are now less of semi-autonomous states (with some exceptions like Dragonmaw and Frostwolf) and exist more as either a personal identity ("I'm an orc of Durotar, but by the blood of my father, I am also a Warsong!") or a glorified military organizations (Shattered Hand, Rageroar).

Also, you forgot Burning Blade clan and its Searing Blade puppet clan.

Fuck yeah, Bleeding Hollow. My favorite clan is the Warsong, but when I played WoW, all my orc RP characters were usually Bleeding Hollow orcs.

Tough choice between the Blackrock and Dragonmaw, but...

Doomhammer and Saurfang were Blackrock, right? They're awesome => their clan is awesome.

I'd pick Blackrocks, since they where the one you played in the campaign in Warcraft 2, but The current Blackrocks ruined those Blackrocks.

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Things Ferlion can't kill: Frost Orbs on LK.

My theory is a lot more simple.

It's all just a result of orcish -> common translation.

The things on Draenor aren't dragons or wolves or anything like that. They're native to Draenor. The flora, the fauna, they all have their own names in the orcish tongue.

However, when these things were translated into common (or rendered in English for the player's benefit, as with clan names and surnames), they were approximated to similar Azerothian equivalents, in the same way that "ryuu" and "houou" are translated into English as "dragon" and "phoenix".

So when you see a character with the surname Deadeye (or Sunstrider, for that matter), that's just English for the player's benefit. In-universe, they're Killrog Lokran (or Kael'thas Belorediel), or whatever the fuck.

The draenish dragons may have gone extinct, or may simply refer to dragon-like creatures such as the warpstalkers. I like to think that the Dragonmaw Clan hunted them to extinction long ago, or that their ancestral hunting grounds were destroyed along with much of the planet.

Draenish wolves are similar to Azerothian wolves, but with some distinct characteristics if you look closely, such as large, tusk-like fangs on their lower jaws (not unlike the orcs themselves). However, in the decades since the orcs entered Azeroth, the Draenish wolves have spread to just about every corner of the world and have also heavily cross-bred with the native wolves (if orcs and humans can...), such that it's often difficult to tell them apart.


Likewise, the Blackrock Clan's untranslated name comes from the dark soil found in their homeland in Shadowmoon Valley, and the mountain depicted in their traditional banner is actually the mountain now known as the Hand of Gul'dan. It was simply a happy coincidence that they founnd a similar volcano in Azeroth that had a similar name to their clan.




At least, that's how I work all that shit out in my own head.

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The Hand of Gul'dan was created during the Draenei-Orc War. The Blackrock were already formed and named by that time.

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Originally Posted by Fojar So technically he doesn't feed them to the shark, he accidentally drops them when the Horde player attacks them.

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Originally Posted by Porimlys Fojar, it's been proven time and time again that presenting evidence to you is an exercise in futility.

Blackrock-Black Tooth Grin-Dragonmaw Speculation

* In recent times before the Draenei War, the Blackrock Clan had grown to become the largest military force among the orcs. It gained in size and prestige by having its chieftain become the first Warchief and by having its shaman become the first warlocks. It had political ties to both the Thunderlord and Dragonmaw Clans.

* Very soon after passing into Azeroth, Blackhand allows a new clan to separate from the Blackrock--the Black Tooth Grin. The Blackrock had grown large to the point of becoming unmanageable, and this move made the most sense (remember that Rise of the Horde reestablishes some of Blackhand's savviness). The system is set up so that the Black Tooth Grin has very close ties to the Blackrock. I speculate that an insignificant caretaker was made the clan's chieftain, with the understanding that when Blackhand dies, both of his sons would become chieftains. One son would have the Blackrock Clan (probably Rend), and one would have the new Black Tooth Grin Clan (probably Maim). Alternatively, perhaps Blackhand was chieftain of both clans in their earliest days.

* Stuff happens. Doomhammer challenges/kills Blackhand and becomes the new Blackrock chieftain and warchief. Rend responds by challenging the caretaker chieftain of the Black Tooth Grin, winning it, and sharing it with his brother. Alternatively, Rend and Maim could have issued a dual challenge to the caretaker chieftain and any chosen second. Alternatively, the caretaker chieftain could have stepped down, recognizing that the Black Tooth Grin had been formed always for the sons of Blackhand. Doomhammer allows this action regardless, partially because he wishes to give them a chance to prove their loyalty and partially because he was already on rough terms with Blackhand loyalists, and he may not have had their support if he denied Rend and Maim what had been rightfully theirs.

* The sons of Blackhand still have quiet support from Zuluhed and the Dragonmaw, though these Dragonmaw likewise stand by Doomhammer and would not move against him.

* Many of the orc Raiders, however, had more obvious sympathies with Blackhand's sons. Blackhand had once been a raider himself, a member of the Sythegore Arm. This gave Gul'dan extra credence when he raised suspicions with Doomhammer that the sons would betray him. Doomhammer disbands the Raiders on Azeroth and funnels their members into the ranks of Horde grunts, and he begins to rely more on a personal bodyguard of loyal ogres to replace them.

* Note that due to the organizational connection between the Blackrock and Black Tooth Grin (and perhaps Doomhammer's mistrust of the sons), the Black Tooth Grin often works in coordination with the Blackrock. In Warcraft II, this was represented with the player's Blackrock commander sometimes assuming command of the Black Tooth Grin forces. In current lore, we see that Rend Blackhand is generally nearby Doomhammer and was sent to command at least two special missions (the rescue of Zul'jin and the attack against Gul'dan). The Blackhands prove themselves surprisingly loyal despite having no fondness for Doomhammer; they plan to see Azeroth's conquest through entirely, and only then to challenge Doomhammer when the Horde had no more external enemies.


* Stuff happens. When Doomhammer is captured, Rend and Maim show they had no love for their father's killer, relishing the opportunity to seize control of the Horde without any betrayal.

* The war ends. The surviving members of the Horde clans scatter away. Rend and Maim claim chieftain rights over the Blackrock Clan, dissolving the Black Tooth Grin back into its mother clan. I speculate they chose this route instead of keeping the clans separate and leading each because, over the years, they had become accustomed to ruling a single clan together. Rend was the de facto higher power, but it didn't matter because the brothers shared goals and would never act against each other.

* But it wasn't a standard "alliance" between the Dragonmaw and the reunified Blackrock. The Dragonmaw Clan renewed its pledge of loyalty to the sons of Blackhand, accepting their rights of leadership. I speculate that one of the reasons the Dragonmaw bowed to Rend and Maim was because of the connections between the Dragonmaw and the Black Tooth Grin dating back to Blackhand's time.


* This is where I get a little muddy. Rend and Maim aren't worshiping daemons yet, when we see them in BtDP. But at some point, the Blackrock Clan is going to turn sharply toward daemon worship--on the very brink of going fel. We see this in Warcraft III Lordaeron, where Uther has had interactions with daemon-worshiping orcs before. Something about a black dragon named Nefarian? Did the black dragonflight lead the Blackrock Clan toward daemon worship?

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I'm almost sure that this was a completely different faction of the Blackrock Clan, unrelated to Blacktooth Grin, secluded in Alterac mountains, and overtaken by warlocks and at least two fel orcs (Jubei'Thos and the Slave Master). Given how they were surrounded by Alliance armies from all sides, I really doubt any communication with Rend (far away in southern Khaz Modan!) would be possible. If anything, this would be Doomhammer's troops that were left in Lordaeron...

I wonder how did the Warsong make it to Lordaeron from the Dark Portal, and why did they even decide to go there, instead of joining Rend's forces located nearby?

I can't imagine that those two would really get along.

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Why not? Both are your usual orc warriors. Unless Rend would have a grudge about Grom serving Ner'zhul... Or Grom would have a grudge about Rend not helping Ner'zhul. But did they care that much about the old shaman?

NEW POST!

I didn't realize the Black Tooth Grin were in Cataclysm. I was basing their clan's lifespan on the fact that they aren't mentioned in Rise of the Horde or in Beyond the Dark Portal, despite Rend and Maim showing up in both of those works.



How's that for a turn of events? The Black Tooth Grin allying with the Twilight's Hammer, whom they thought they had destroyed, and its leader whom they may or may not have thought they had killed (depending on whether modern lore decides that Cho'gall just survived somehow, whether he resurrected, whether it was a Cho'gall impersonator killed, or whether the death scene never happened at all).

So I saw Nefarian mentioned. Does this mean that in Cataclysm, Rend is simultaneously chieftain of the Blackrock and the Black Tooth Grin clans? Or is this Black Tooth Grin made separate from Rend's Blackrocks?

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Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

Frostwolf of course. The only orc clan with decent, aware leaders, such as Durotan who told his clan to not drink the demons blood, Thrall who lead there people to there salvation, and drek'thar, who down the line realized siding with the forsaken was a mistake and could not abide by it anymore.

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