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  #51  
Old 01-22-2010, 09:50 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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She's a weak-willed whiny idealist.

Like I said, disgrace to the Proudmoore name.
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  #52  
Old 01-22-2010, 10:07 PM
Kirby-Star Kirby-Star is offline

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Jaina raping Arthas with her staff was unsettling. Even for game mechanics.



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  #53  
Old 01-22-2010, 10:26 PM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I wonder if Blizzard is trying to discredit Jaina for Alliance players. I notice a lot more Jaina hate more recently.
It's nothing to do about her gender. Her leadership just seems so passive. Everything is reactionary and nothing has gone according to her plans.
And her actions should realistically start alienating her allies since they are getting the raw deal from choices she made.
I mean it all started when she betrayed her dad.
That already should be a giant stain on her reputation.
I mean if you can't count on loyalty between kin then how should the other nations trust her word as an ally.
At the end of the day she chose a lifelong enemy of her faction over her own family. That looks really bad. But she might still gain some leverage by being a useful powerful mage and at least the Night Elves still think of her fondly for helping defend against the Legion.
Yeah it could have been the right and honorable thing.
She gave peace a shot but it failed because most of the conflicts with the Horde are with the Alliance now and will probably lead to all out war.
And she helped contribute to that by giving up to Thrall and not backing her dad. But on the flip side, she did guarantee Theramore's extended security, but again who knows how long that will last with war on the horizon. So she gained nothing. But sacrificed her father who was one of the Alliance's best generals.
Then at the Wrathgate the Alliance lost their one shot at reclaiming Lodaeron the holy grail of long lost Alliance capitals. Perhaps it was for the best.
The Horde would have been pissed and would have divided the assault on Arthas weakening the offensive. But again nothing was resolved. They lost their shot at Lordaeron and the Horde will still be a threat to the Eastern Alliance. Some could say that her relationship with Thrall has not so far benefited at least the Eastern Kingdoms Alliance at all and that all that the Eastern Alliance has been doing is sacrificing for the supposed greater good. At this point, one would begin to question whether allying with Theramore and or even the Kalimdor Alliance is at all worth it considering all the sacrifices they're being forced to make due to Jaina's interference.
If the Kalimdor Alliance can be convinced that Jaina's defense of keeping peace with the Horde is no longer in their best interests she will have no allies left and no leg to stand on. And with Cataclysm rolling around with Garrosh in charge and knocking some possible Night Elf heads, Jaina'll be alone and friendless and will have to concede to the rest of the Alliance's our way or the highway mentality. No more "giving up" or "sacrificing" for the greater good.
Honestly I will be surprised if she is still a powerful political figure after Cataclysm. She better cure cancer and STDs to get back in the high Alliance echelon since all the wars with the Horde could technically be considered her fault. If she didn't do that then I don't know why Blizz is shoving down how Jaina is such a big shot in the Alliance down people's throats since there are more then just the Night Elves as her allies and even they should technically get tired of all her white flag waving.
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  #54  
Old 01-22-2010, 10:52 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I wonder if Blizzard is trying to discredit Jaina for Alliance players. I notice a lot more Jaina hate more recently.
It's nothing recent. For some reason some people seem to have a problem with one of the few significant female WarCraft protagonists who isn't a high elf ranger who falls in love with a human or a night elf with ten-thousand-year-old psychological issues.

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I didn't like Jaina even when she was introduced. She's a disgrace to the Proudmoore name.
Yeah, because when someone helps to save you and the rest of the world from certain destruction, then a family member shows up later and demands his head post-haste, that family member is automatically in the right and should be obeyed without question.

Both Daelin and Arthas were examples of irrational men demanding that she obey them without question, insisting that she partake in a betrayal (which it would have been, of the Horde in Daelin's case and of the people in Lordaeron with Arthas). So, would she meet your criteria of a worthy Proudmoore if she'd just bowed her head and done as she was told?

All this irrational Jaina hate; parts of this thread feel like they were transplanted directly from the official WoW forums. At least Jaina agonized over those decisions and still suffers the burden of her own personal guilt, while so many others on Azeroth run around lopping off heads and dealing out torment and misery untroubled by whether their victims even deserved it. Far more egregious atrocities are committed in WarCraft on purpose and without reservations and the perpetrators are inevitably rewarded by the fanbase by being classified as glorious badasses rather than being reviled for the contemptible, murderous filth that they really are. Meanwhile Jaina's made to face difficult decisions and she gets mocked for choosing to avert needless war instead of swimming in blood and perpetuating war at every opportunity. In a world where monstrous scumbags are champing at the bit to plunge the world into an unending bloodbath, somehow people find villainy and contempt in the actions of one of the few leaders who's actively trying to prevent it.

If living up to the Proudmoore name means becoming a two-dimensional warmonger who wants to kill the orcs so much that he'll dismiss his own child for the opportunity to do so, then what sort of legacy is that to live up to? Had Jaina not been the person she is, Azeroth would have burned before the Legion's might, because a leader like Daelin would have remained unmovable in his hatred toward the orcs and continued fighting the orcs, night elves, Scourge and Burning Legion all at once and been crushed, along with the Alliance forces in Kalimdor. Archimonde's Legion and Scourge troops would have steamrolled a so-divided mortal force and marched unhindered to Mt. Hyjal, and shortly thereafter the rest of the world would have fallen as he wielded the power of Nordrassil.
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  #55  
Old 01-22-2010, 11:15 PM
Rowan Seven Rowan Seven is offline

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Thank you Arm. It's a pleasure to see someone defend Jaina with your eloquence, and I'm glad to see that there are still people who appreciate thoughtful, intelligent characters who appeal to what's best in us rather than the aggressive, "eye for an eye" types that perpetuate the cycle of hatred.
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  #56  
Old 01-22-2010, 11:24 PM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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Yeah, because when someone helps to save you and the rest of the world from certain destruction, then a family member shows up later and demands his head post-haste, that family member is automatically in the right and should be obeyed without question.

Both Daelin and Arthas were examples of irrational men demanding that she obey them without question, insisting that she partake in a betrayal (which it would have been, of the Horde in Daelin's case and of the people in Lordaeron with Arthas). So, would she meet your criteria of a worthy Proudmoore if she'd just bowed her head and done as she was told?
Dude, I ain't talking about the events that took place in Frozen Throne. From the very first moment Jaina is ever seen, she is everything her father was not. Surely you remember Daelin appeared in previous games, yes?

Besides, Daelin betrayed no one. He had no allegiance to the Horde, and he signed no seemingly non-existant peace treaties.
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  #57  
Old 01-22-2010, 11:44 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Twofootfury View Post
Dude, I ain't talking about the events that took place in Frozen Throne. From the very first moment Jaina is ever seen, she is everything her father was not. Surely you remember Daelin appeared in previous games, yes?
Yeah, she talked and did stuff. "Previous games" means WCII, since the other human nations played no prt in WCI, and heroes in WCII games functioned primarily as unique-named units that you didn't use for fear of getting them killed and failing the mission. They weren't personalities back then; they were names given to characters for the sake of saying "so-and-so said to do this" during the mission briefings.

And even when he finally appeared as a real character with a speaking role during the Second War as portrayed in the Tides of Darkness novelization, he was shown as just one more king in the room during the meetings between Lothar and the human leadership, who supported Terenas' decision to create the Alliance and then proceeded to say and do very little for the rest of the story.

Then after a whole game and a novel portraying it in the part of a high-ranking extra, he shows up as a howling warmonger intent upon exterminating a race thousands of miles away from the nearest Alliance kingdom, while essentially telling his daughter that she was too stupid to understand such things and not so much as expressing more than a moment's relief at her well-being. "Oh, you're alive. Okay then, best of luck in this strange land while still recovering from the fall of Lordaeron and Dalaran. I can ignore you now and start killing these orcs, and throwing away more of your people's lives in the process."

Yeah, Jaina was the complete opposite of that. She was a pertinent character who contributed heavily to the story in which she was introduced. Daelin was relegated to the role of leading one of several human nations in a time when Blizzard was in no position to elaborate on how those nations were different beyond player' unit colors, national crests and "Kul Tiras has a lot of ships", and so he was primarily another face with a big title in the Alliance hierarchy who it would seem wasn't even important enough for his homeland to appear on the map in WoW, much less actually exist in the game world.

The first time she appeared, it was to tell Antonidas that she felt something was strange about the Prophet. And she turned out to be right. Indeed, truly a negatively character-defining moment: noticing something that someone else missed. Yeah, I guess that was also the opposite of what Daelin would have done (and for all we know, he might have done, if Medivh made any similar visits to other Alliance kingdoms including Kul Tiras off-camera). He'd have ignored Medivh entirely like everyone else did, and Azeroth would have fallen if the actions following the Scourge's invasion had all been left up to him.

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  #58  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:01 AM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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What was Daelin doing in the middle of the ocean by the way? Thrall, in the demo campaign, leaves fairly early towards Kalimdor. When he shipwrecks on those islands there are already Kul Tiras troops there. Then Thrall eventually leaves due to the island he was on sinking — although some people say the island didn't sink for some reason. Flash forward to the last campaign in the expansion and Daelin finally appears again. I haven't played the levels yet but people say that the explanation is that his fleet was lost for awhile in the ocean and just finally found their way out and I guess wanted to go to Kalimdor. So it sounds like to me that his fleet was lost before the war even began. Or else his troops were on those islands for no reason and then he got lost? Did his fleet even see any action in the war?
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:11 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Jaina trusted the prophet without any real reason than serendipity. I actually consider that a negative trait- she's too trusting and not analytical enough to be an effective leader. And noting how many dissidents Theramore has, a good portion of her people seem to agree with me.
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:14 AM
Rolandius Rolandius is offline

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Jaina trusted the prophet without any real reason than serendipity. I actually consider that a negative trait- she's too trusting and not analytical enough to be an effective leader. And noting how many dissidents Theramore has, a good portion of her people seem to agree with me.
Thrall trusted the prophet too.
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:16 AM
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Thrall trusted the prophet too.
And look where that got him circa Cataclysm.
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:32 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Twofootfury View Post
She's a weak-willed whiny idealist.

Like I said, disgrace to the Proudmoore name.
How is she whiny, exactly?

And what Proudmoore name is there to disgrace?

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Jaina trusted the prophet without any real reason than serendipity. I actually consider that a negative trait- she's too trusting and not analytical enough to be an effective leader. And noting how many dissidents Theramore has, a good portion of her people seem to agree with me.
Not analytical enough? You kidding? That's like her defining characteristic. The whole point to her character was that she was inquisitive and insightful, so she could be Antonidas' eyes and ears where he wasn't.

It wasn't serendipity anyway. She basically thought that Medivh was someone who was worth listening to/consulting. Mostly because of the power he sensed, and she basically suggested to Arthas and Antonidas that maybe disregarding what he was saying wasn't such a prudent idea.

THEN when Arthas had burned Stratholme to the ground, Medivh managed to convince her that Arthas's idealism and her belief in him wasn't going to save Lordaeron. Seeing as how he had a destroyed city to prove his point, I don't think it was out of the question for her to listen to him.

But I mean it's not like she took him at his word at the onset. I think that was sort of the point in having her listen in when he was talking to Antonidas and Arthas.

Now, was she totally right? Was what she did totally practical? No. But it certainly wasn't serendipity. It wasn't like she was taking a HUGE chance. Just a bit of one, and the alternative's odds weren't really superior.

Having said that. I wouldn't say this characterization was totally out of the question post-RoC. In TFT Jaina's portrayed as a non-entity and ineffective leader. She has little to do with the plot and she makes little effort in dissuading her father's near-sighted plans. Also I personally have serious qualms over her second-hand killing of her father.

In WoW, she's all right. But so far in WOTLK it's been even worse. People completely disregard what she says in diplomatic meetings, she's sitting on the sidelines like some sort of cheerleader. She's portrayed as unbelievably weak. A lot of her more patient, compassionate traits were exaggerated after RoC, and it's really only gotten worse since then.

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And look where that got him circa Cataclysm.
Uh... what? What does trusting the prophet have to do with Cataclysm? Unless you mean his trusting Garrosh. And I'd say trusting Garrosh is a very different animal than trusting Medivh.

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It's nothing recent. For some reason some people seem have a problem with one of the few significant female WarCraft protagonists who isn't a high elf ranger who falls in love with a human or a night elf with ten-thousand-year-old psychological issues.
It's recent as far as Blizzard is concerned. The dissenters are new, the way she's portrayed in WOTLK is new. I think really there was a presumption on the player bases' part, that's sort of translated or migrated over to Blizzard's.
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  #63  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:44 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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Ok here’s my 2 cents. ARM, you can’t just cite one instance where Medivh manipulates and orchestrates the whole entire affair to lure Archimonde to the World Tree and were able to persuade three leaders to unite for one battle and all the pieces fell into place mostly due to Medivh’s nudging and guidance and think that every political moment should be just like that because it worked before.
IMO I can’t blame Admiral Proudmoore because how can you blame anyone for not wanting to treat life like a Saturday morning cartoon? Because realistically, you don’t expect some Guardian Angel knocking on every door giving orders and telling them the game plan every time some big bad comes into play. There wasn’t one for when the orcs invaded and mostly through the Alliance’s own will to survive and maybe a miracle, they were able to win the first war.
Now Admiral Proudmoore being a two-dimensional warmonger, I don’t agree. He saw an opportunity to end a threat to his people and he took it. Call it brutal/ruthless efficiency but I like to think that sometimes that actually works. And he wasn’t messing with some Soul sucking sword so its not like I can predict he would have eventually blew up the world.
Hasn’t there ever been a moment when an honorable character does the honorable/stupid move and it blew up in his or her face? Well that’s what people could perceive Jaina’s constant peace endeavors.
Besides Proudmoore’s daughter was trying to divide his forces and would have been a threat to his goals. Yes not everybody wants to put their faith in Thrall’s supposed peaceful reputation and wanted to take matters into their own hands. Did he expect her loyalty? Well yes, he’s her father and king. Welcome to the feudal system. Anyone who doesn’t follow that is considered a traitor or a barbarian since they don’t respect order.
Anyways I think he was trying to defend his people in his own way and maybe you got to make the choice if you truly believe in your agenda of sacrificing the one you love or doing what you think must be done. Just because he was stab in the back doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have succeeded in actually stopping the Horde. Maybe it’s not the moral of the story Blizz wants to convey. Since every storyline now has to deal with every race being needed for survival and so forth and that in the end some magic Jesus will come down and tell everyone that teamwork is the key to victory against something supposedly unstoppable. But yet the game is designed were eventually a person steps on someone else’s shoes and everyone ends up killing each other. Maybe it’s after the big baddies or maybe it’s during the battle. But life goes on and at the end of the day the game is designed were you’re not supposed to work with or like the other faction. I don’t know I just think that Blizz has to plan their story to decide whether both factions hate each other or love each other because this love hate relationship between two factions who war with each other until they find something that individually they’re too weak to beat by themselves sounds pretty stupid.
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  #64  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:54 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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THEN when Arthas had burned Stratholme to the ground, Medivh managed to convince her that Arthas's idealism and her belief in him wasn't going to save Lordaeron. Seeing as how he had a destroyed city to prove his point, I don't think it was out of the question for her to listen to him.

But I mean it's not like she took him at his word at the onset. I think that was sort of the point in having her listen in when he was talking to Antonidas and Arthas.

Now, was she totally right? Was what she did totally practical? No. But it certainly wasn't serendipity. It wasn't like she was taking a HUGE chance. Just a bit of one, and the alternative's odds weren't really superior.
Plus whatever one might think of the potential retcon implications, her presence at Dalaran as Arthas approached it in RotLK makes it seem that Jaina might have only committed fully to the evacuation when the capital fell and the Scourge had begun razing Lordaeron. That would certainly provide the incentive; if on Medivh's advice she began preparations while still thinking it was "just in case", only to see the undead menace explode across the heart of Lordaeron, realize just how right Medivh was, and start loading up the ships.

After all, it seems like it would have taken a while to get all those ships together and to ready everyone to get on board, especially since a bunch of the ships were brought north from Kul Tiras. Even if she started doing something right after Arthas left to Northrend, the real evacuation might not have begun in earnest until the bodies started piling up in Tirisfal and then walking around again. She hardly saved the majority of the people; given the ruined ships along western Silverpine, the actual evacuation could have amounted to a fighting retreat from the Scourge along the western shores of Lordaeron. Unless it's described in detail at some point, it could turn out that the ships arrived just in time to save the frantic last defenders in the westernmost lands of Lordaeron rather than it having been an orderly gathering of those who were willing to leave on Jaina's word alone.

In fact that would kind of make sense. Really, Jaina's reasoning is far from being the sole - or even most important - aspect of the situation. What about everyone else? No matter what she felt about Medivh's warning, she would have had to convince all of those people to pack up their bags and leave to a distant land on her word alone. How did she do that? They weren't all uneducated and superstitious peasants; numerous nobles, commoners, soldiers, clergy, and mages alike felt compelled to accompany her to a continent that, in their experience at the time, might not have even existed. If the undead were already swarming over the horizon to the east when the ships arrived and she offered a means of escape, that could have been the impetus that drove them to follow her and abandon their homes rather than stay and face the approaching undead.
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  #65  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:59 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Well Blizzard did specify their intent to increase rivalry and hatred. It does create more drama and get people more interested in the story. People personalize with their own faction more then they do other story elements in the game. I think Blizzard does want the world to feel more realistic though where players can take different stances on different issues. Some players can believe in the war while others are just ruled by people that believe in the war. It creates discussion.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:00 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Every time Jaina talks, I want to go Lithgow on her. Which is to say I want to interrupt the first word that comes out of her mouth with "Shut up, cunt."
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:10 AM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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Every time Jaina talks, I want to go Lithgow on her. Which is to say I want to interrupt the first word that comes out of her mouth with "Shut up, cunt."
*bro fist*
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:14 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Every time Jaina talks, I want to go Lithgow on her. Which is to say I want to interrupt the first word that comes out of her mouth with "Shut up, cunt."
That isn't very nice.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:21 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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It does create more drama and get people more interested in the story.
It doesn't really create more drama, it generates more artificial conflict that feels totally insincere and unnecessary. Oh yeah, and it butchers one of their few female characters who actually seems to do something.

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Every time Jaina talks, I want to go Lithgow on her. Which is to say I want to interrupt the first word that comes out of her mouth with "Shut up, cunt."
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*bro fist*
Just what this forum needed. Blatant trolling and sexism. I am just so ecstatic.

Cut it out. Seriously.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:26 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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IMO I can’t blame Admiral Proudmoore because how can you blame anyone for not wanting to treat life like a Saturday morning cartoon?
I can because of Varian. Yep, that's right, in light of Daelin Proudmoore I'm using Varian as a model of reason and restraint.

Because Varian watched his own father die from an orcish knife through the heart, then watched his own kingdom burn and his people die horribly to orcish blades, then came back home to rebuilt the decimated ruin of his homeland.

And still he was willing to speak to Thrall and at least consider peace based on the word of Jaina.

Then he was attacked by Garona, who he perceived to be a Horde assassin at the time. And even after that, he still focused on the Scourge and simply cast a wary eye to the Horde, hoping that at in the face of the undead Jaina might be right and the Horde could be trusted.

Then an outright betrayal and murder of an entire Alliance army by someone under the Horde's banner (at the time), followed by a jaunt through the defiled remnants of Lordaeron's capital, and he was still willing to heed Jaina's words until Garrosh goaded him with the usual Garrosh-style jackassery.

Yet still he was willing to attend the Argent Tournament at Jaina's request, surrounded by "the savages", and still he acknowledges Saurfang's loss at Icecrown Citadel.

...

Whereas Daelin Proudmoore, from the moment of arriving in Kalimdor, is unwilling to even hear Jaina's words. He sees orcs and starts hurling soldiers at them. There's no spoken indication of any calculated effort to preemptively deny the Horde a stable presence in Kalimdor; it's all about "what they've done". He lost a son in the Second War, and that makes any attempt at such tactical pragmatism about such things suspect; downright unbelievable in fact, given his behavior. Maiev had all sorts of pretty notions of justice and capturing a dangerous criminal to throw in the faces of anyone who disagreed with her actions, but that doesn't change the fact that her spoken justifications were just a front to make her real desire - to get personal vengeance for Illidan's escape and his actions afterward - more palatable to herself and others.

Daelin's lost a lot to the Horde (though most of the other kingdoms lost friends, family, soldiers, and had their lands ravaged by the invaders), but how a character deals with such loss speaks volumes of their character. After all, WarCraft's full of examples of those who face a devastating loss and learn to deal with it, and those who succumb to hatred and the desire for revenge for its own sake. The entire Scarlet Crusade is one big fat example of the latter, and it's revealed for what a twisted and unnecessary group it is by the very existence of the Argent Dawn.

The fact that Varian - who had even more reasons to want every orc dead and hanging from the arches of Stormwind than Daelin did - was willing to even consider for a moment the possibility that they might not be the monsters he thought them to be puts in sharp perspective the refusal of Daelin to even listen to his own daughter's pleas for reason and restraint. He saw orcs, and suddenly revenge was all that mattered.

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It doesn't really create more drama, it generates more artificial conflict that feels totally insincere and unnecessary. Oh yeah, and it butchers one of their few female characters who actually seems to do something.
Plus it takes a world that's chock full of gray areas, and plunges it into a two-sided argument of black-and-white.

Really, if the NPC's want to smack each other around, that's just dandy. I just hope they don't turn entire zones into Horde vs. Alliance conflict so that leveling players don't even have a choice in what they feel their character would do. If the story basically tells me that my character - and by extension every player character - is by necessity suddenly a factional bigot (even though of all the Azerothians, we who have spat in C'thun's eye, smacked Kil'jaeden in the head and smacked down Arthas at the head of powerful faction-neutral armies are supposed to know better at this point) it'll be a damned shame. Either way, if the Horde and Alliance want to chew each others' throats out, I'll be in Deepholm and the Twilight Highlands dealing with the real problem.

Last edited by ARM3481; 01-23-2010 at 01:34 AM..
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:30 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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It doesn't really create more drama, it generates more artificial conflict that feels totally insincere and unnecessary. Oh yeah, and it butchers one of their few female characters who actually seems to do something.
You may be right. Blizzard has stated an interest in creating more hate though.

I want Garona to enter WoW. She is old school and would interact interestingly with Varian Wrynn.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:31 AM
Ornhelm Ornhelm is offline

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I don't know...her heart's in the right place...but if she really wanted peace she should stand up for the Alliance once and a while instead of compromising each and every time. I do believe that compromise is a good thing...but too much of a good thing can be bad. She should take a stand against the actions for the Warsong and the Forsaken. She should question Thrall on it and hold him accountable. It seems she's all talk for peace but she just can't stand up to the "fringe" Horde factions in order to get it.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:59 AM
Twofootfury Twofootfury is offline

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Just what this forum needed. Blatant trolling and sexism. I am just so ecstatic.

Cut it out. Seriously.
My contempt for Jaina has nothing to do with her gender.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:02 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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My contempt for Jaina has nothing to do with her gender.
The word "cunt" is sexism though. That is what he was talking about.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:05 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Okay, let's not make an issue out of this.

I have no problem with anyone's contempt for Jaina, you can feel about the character however you chose. And I'm not really reading a whole lot into Fordragon's comment, outside of it being a joke.

It was just a friendly (be it severely worded) reminder. Let's leave it at that and move on.
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