I agree with many of your points, what is often called "Shadow Magic" could be better termed "Void Magic".

However the philosophical concept of "The Shadow" is the mix of Light and Void that compose the universe and it seems quite a bit less Ego-centric in the magazine then it did in the RPG. "The Shadow" is everything, both Light and Dark and one who believes in it is supposed to know that falling too far towards either extreme distances them from the proper balance of the Shadow.

In fact I would say the latest incarnation of the "The Shadow" takes the "oneness the universe" ideals of the Light and actually pushes them further with "Oneness with the entire Universe including that other half the Church of the Holy Light isn't exactly fond of"

Again I ask you to point out the quote to me which states for a fact that "The Shadow" is a mix of light and void. As the lore that seems to suggest what you said can be refuted with the evidence i provided.

__________________
"The true horrors of the universe lie within humanity itself" - Satoshi Kon

http://cargocollective.com/deadletter
My dark designs

It points out here that Light and Darkness are equally important to "The Shadow" which is just another term for reality.

And the short-lived Titan comic implied that reality as we know it came about after the collision Void and Light.

Whatever the case "The Shadow" is clearly identified as something separate from Void which is only just as related to it as the Light is.

No they state that dark energy is the shadow, and to use the shadow is just as important as using the light. Balance is achieved from using both light and dark. But one can become controlled by the dark forces they invoke if they are not careful.

Sorry you have not provided evidence that the shadow is a mix of light and dark.

All previous lore also outweighs any hybrid magic statement, and never states that shadow is anything but dark energies.

__________________
"The true horrors of the universe lie within humanity itself" - Satoshi Kon

http://cargocollective.com/deadletter
My dark designs

"The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, a group
considered heretical by most, believes that
dark energy practitioners are just as vital to
the survival of life and reality (which they call
“the Shadow”)"

__________________

I didn't say anything about hybrid magic. "The Shadow" in this context is just another word for reality which has been strongly implied to be formed of Void and Light.

Darkness being just as necessary to Darkness as the Light is would make absolutely no sense at all.

In the context of magic forms "Darkness", "Void" and "Shadow" are synonymous. It's just that "The Shadow" that is the core philosophical belief of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow is not a reference to the form of magic.

The magazine article clearly states that "The Shadow" is their word for existence as a whole.

You seem to have been missing my point which is understandable because of the stupid terminology being practically identical for two very different concepts.

Simply put a Priest of Forgotten Shadow is a Priest who believes darkness is just as important as Light and nothing in their tenets forbids them from practicing either, what we call a Shadow Priest ingame is one who primarily utilizes the "Shadow Magic" that is synonymous with "Void" and "Darkness". Believers in the Forgotten Shadow usually focus upon practicing Dark magics however.

Now if only the terminology wasn't mixed up this would be way easier to explain.

EDIT:If you were wondering where it is implied reality is more or less equal parts Light and Void. And if the term "The Shadow" has one definition that is "Reality" then one could say that definition of "The Shadow" is more or less equal parts Light and Void.

The Shadow betrays you, because it belong to me!

__________________

I give up, as you are pretty much building your own interpretation rather then actually reading the quotes. I have provided evidence why your reading of the quote is wrong, and all you are doing is saying the same thing again.

Balance between good and evil is a philosophy that had been noted in earth religions before. So why a balance between light and darkness is any different is just saying how your choosing to ignore the vast majority of lore about "The Shadow" which contradicts you.

__________________
"The true horrors of the universe lie within humanity itself" - Satoshi Kon

http://cargocollective.com/deadletter
My dark designs

The vast majority of the lore surrounding "The Shadow" in the canon context of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow is one rather small magazine article which defines it as "Life and reality".

There is simply no other way to interpret the sentence.

Now it's you that I don't think is managing to comprehend my point. In fact I'm almost failing to understand how your responses even relate to my point.

Have I stated the balance between Light and Darkness to be really all that different between real life philosophies centered around dualism? Because I don't believe I have.

You seem to be under the impression that I believe Shadow Priests use "Grey energy" when I've repeatedly stated that they do not, they simply have no aversion to using either "White or Black".

You see "The Shadow" and "Shadow" are homonyms and that's all my point is. Under one particular context "The Shadow" stands for "Life and Reality" to which both Light and Darkness are equally important. Under an entirely different context "Shadow" it refers solely to the Darkness(or Void) and nothing else.

And referring to your post here...
You fail at reading a direct quote from the only valid lore source there is.

"believes that dark energy practitioners are just as vital to the survival of life and reality (which they call "the Shadow") " is what you quoted from me and insisted was wrong. The hilarity of this is that it's a word for word quote from the magazine and you insisted upon telling me I got it wrong, perhaps you should argue the point with the writer of the article and point out how wrong they were.

If that was the case the defining of what they called the Shadow would come immediately after "Dark Energy" not "Life and Reality". In fact there's no way that this sentence structure could be interpreted to say that Dark energy is "The Shadow".

So please try some reading comprehension before arguing a point.

As I said I cant be bothered to argue with you anymore. The Shadow has been exclusively mentioned as the dark energies that shadow priests channel nothing more. I never said they don't use holy energies, they use the light and their shadow to uphold their idea of balance. But the energy they use every day is essentially darkness with no light component whatsoever. The Shadow is the darkness, the philosophy of the religion however can be interpreted depending on the believer.

Anyway I want to get back to the actual topic, and about the place of faiths in regards to the priest class which essentially seem faithless at present (the removal of priest racials did not help this.)

__________________
"The true horrors of the universe lie within humanity itself" - Satoshi Kon

http://cargocollective.com/deadletter
My dark designs

I haven't played much with my Priest character yet, but I know that you have Shadow powers pretty early on. It kind of threw my RP immersion for a loop, since I was imagining my character as devout to the "Holy Light". I even considered not training the Shadow abilities, for the sake of character consistency.

I reconciled it by assuming that Priests in this game balanced both light and shadow, and that was a-okay with their religious system. But this thread and a few others are telling me that isn't the case.

__________________
Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge - Part Three

Honestly...

You keep saying I'm wrong at the same time that you're agreeing with me on half these points.

I've repeatedly stated that "Shadow" in the context of the magic form is indeed the same exact thing as "Darkness". You've repeatedly stated the same exact thing here. We're in perfect agreement on that point. The magic they use day to day is Darkness, I know that and you know that.

I am arguing that there are several different concepts that are referred to as Shadow that are homonyms. Words that are spelled the same, sound the same yet mean something entirely different.

In a direct quote from the only canon source on the Forgotten Shadow it is stated quite clearly that in a certain context the word is defined as "life and reality". This is however not the same thing as any form of magic used my anyone. In most contexts the word "Shadow" is used synonymously with "Darkness" or Void"

So basically all you're arguing with me is that there isn't a second definition utilized in certain contexts.

You are being a prime example of why I think they should use more clearly differentiated wording because you keep thinking I'm arguing a completely different point then I actually am.

In fact any time I've ever brought up this distinction I've had to repeat it constantly before anyone figured out what I was actually saying. A Shadow Priest isn't going around shooting "Life and Reality" at people, Shadow bolts aren't "Life and Reality" bolts and so on.

When I refer to the Shadow as a mix of Void and Light I refer to only one particular definition that has next to nothing to do with whatever magic any class utilizes. Because a second definition of the word was given it is no longer exclusively defined as "Darkness".

So let me make it clear what I'm saying.



So now that I have clearly defined this all, tell me how much of this are you actually disagreeing with? Because in all of your previous posts you've been attempting to argue a point with me when I said you were absolutely correct on that particular point.

It's obvious that the word has multiple definitions like most any word. The points you've thought I was arguing are not the points I have been arguing, the point I was arguing is that there are multiple different usages of the word that mean entirely different things.

As far as what sort of magic Shadow Priests use I agree with you 100% though I believe confusion would be minimized if the word "Void" was used in place of the energy form.

As for my source I use the Warcraft Magazine article quote I already posted.
Now if I have any idea of how to read that definition isn't placed anywhere near "dark energy" to be the term to which it applies, and as the definition is placed immediately after "reality" I have been required to accept that the intent was to add an additional definition to the word in the context of a particular organizations belief system in the Warcraft universe.

The fact that they constantly refer to their magic as Darkness or Dark Energy reenforces the idea that they were defining "Shadow" in that one context as a separate concept.



So yes, to the point. Ingame lore of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow is sorely lacking. As anyone can probably tell I've rigorously perused every article I could find on the subject as well as anything related to it. Unfortunately there is hardly enough to suit my tastes, maybe a few mentions here and there. Rarely anything direct despite them being a rather interesting concept that if done properly could probably diversify Forsaken politics.

I would love to see some circumstance arise which would lead to increased popularity of their beliefs and cause a rise to prominence, hopefully one that could lead to philosophical debates between lore characters that we could watch play out and have people clearly suspicious of the Cult as it gathers more attention, and perhaps they could respond by trying to dissuade people from the belief that they're just another bunch of worshippers of darkness that want to bring the world to its end.

Really the potential is limitless if utilized properly. Hell, maybe they could serve as the basis for a neutral but majority Forsaken or at least Forsaken-led group to show there's more to them then plagues and puppy torture.

However it might be implemented it would be interesting and could provide a decent foil for "The Light is so Wonderful" crowd if done right. By "if done right" I mean if it has the conflict with more prominent preexisting organizations we would logically expect.

Hmm... I suppose that really depends on what exact philosophy your character follows.

The Draenei probably follow the Naaru in believing that the Light cannot exist without the Void and that the Void is necessary but should be controlled and suppressed. Considering the reaction to Natalie Seline's teachings the human Church of the Holy Light didn't even recognize the Dark Energies to be as natural and universal as the Light and seemed to have heavily discouraged its study, so I don't believe they were much into the whole "balance" thing.

The Cult of Forgotten Shadow on the other hand is very much into the whole "balance" thing though its primary focus seems to be on the study of the Dark Energies that the Church ignores. However they do emphasize that the importance of the Light shouldn't be ignored and that even if they do not plan to use it they should still study it. The Cult of Forgotten Shadow as described in the magazine does not place any greater or lesser importance on either the Light or Dark Energies(Which seem to be referred to differently depending on the speaker, Naaru and Draenei seem to prefer the word Void as do I).

EDIT: ((Honestly I would rename the Shadow magic school to Void if I could.))

Anyhow back ontopic. An event to increase the prominence of the Cult would be hard to work out, something to shake peoples faith in the absolute moral superiority of the Light would likely work or at least something to make Darkness seem less evil. It would be great if powerful but non-evil forces of darkness/void appeared some time or even hostile Light entities.

Something to throw off the faith of the people of Azeroth and lead them to believe that maybe these new guys knew what the real deal was and could provide answers. Or they could just rise to prominence by taking things over when stuff starts falling apart, if the Cult was established ingame I would like to see them as a potential challenge to Sylvanas's rule if things got out of hand. Because seriously, we need people who can replace leaders established as early as possible at least so we know that they aren't irreplaceable.

What I am disagreeing, is with how you read that "dark energy practitioners are just as vital to the survival of life and reality" means that it includes light as a consequence of being linked to life. They are merely saying that there needs to be darkness for life to survive.

Akin how we would not survive in a world that is 100% of the time in the sun (and vice versa.)

I think at this point we are only arguing how this line can be read. Since until contradicted otherwise, I will believe the RPG incarnation of the lore, with supports my reading of this phrase.

As I said I rather end this discussion and get back to the main discussion, as its obvious neither of us will come to an agreement on this point.


Anyway back to the topic. I think using the Cult as a way to challenge the rule of Sylvanas would be a interesting development. I could also provide a faith for the shadow using player classes. As a way to show how their use of dark magic can be used for the greater good.

__________________
"The true horrors of the universe lie within humanity itself" - Satoshi Kon

http://cargocollective.com/deadletter
My dark designs

Actually I had no idea you were arguing that half of the sentence, I was mostly pointing out the "life and reality (which they call "the Shadow")" part.

Where I get the idea that the universe is half Light half Void is actually from a different article altogether.Which to me all seemed to fit well with everything else that seems to portray Void and Light as the basic primal forces of reality necessary to its existence.

Since the non-canon ruling that was done with RPG I've come to use it more as supplementary material that might later serve as a rough guideline for future lore. The magazine presentation of the Cult struck me as a quite major change with many of the former RPG themes not present in the slightest with the focus suddenly shifted towards Balance which before seemed only a brief mention packed under the whole Undead superiority thing and "How to become more undead".

Generally the point is it got across the message of a very different philosophy but with some of the same themes.

You can probably tell I'm actually a fan of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow as I assume that would be obvious, I actually left quite a few questions pertaining to it on the Ask Cdev.

My major complaint pretty much is that the new lore of the Cult does not really match up with the old now Non-canon RPG and the magazine didn't provide all too much. Just enough to throw out the major theme of the undeadcentricity of the religion and throw the rest into doubt.

I want to see a sermon given on whatever form of the three virtues is official canon now, I want to see what the Lightslayers are in this incarnation and if they still believe in ascendancy and if the mechanics of that have changed.

It's the irritating thing is that the whole organization had such a small ingame presence that their lore could be effectively rebooted without anyone noticing. Now I've just been having to wait until they finally decide to tell us more about what the hell the Cult of Forgotten Shadow is since now we only have a handful of paragraphs we can rely on and they only give a vague outline.

Well tbh they could easily fix the issues by merely showing that their are two factions within the religion. One who follows power of the ego, and the other who care about maintaining balance. The best thing about them could be they have no fixed dogma, unlike the holy light.

__________________
"The true horrors of the universe lie within humanity itself" - Satoshi Kon

http://cargocollective.com/deadletter
My dark designs

Well personally I think both are rather linked. If you lose the balance the power consumes and controls you.

Controlling true power requires at least some balance and a certain respect for both powers, Light and Dark. A complete mastery of the two would probably be their ultimate goal.