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  #826  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:39 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
See, I dunno. One thing I want for the Alliance is to ditch the high king schtick and spread the love among the different races and nations.

For Horde, we have a bit of the racial diversity already. But nations? (In their case, clans?) Blizzard has a golden opportunity here with Warlords of Draenor, already picking out specific Horde clans to highlight. But if the whole expansion is just raid bossing those clans to oblivion so everyone can join the single monolithic Horde, then yawn.

Of course, I can't blame the Horde for those thematics. They've always been warchief-centered totalitarian, even in the height of their clan variety. A multinational coalition wasn't ever the Horde's thing... it was the Alliance's. Once upon a time.
There's a lot of clans; I don't think we'll be killing all of them, even beyond just the Frostwolf.
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  #827  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:39 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Crudbeard was the first. More will follow.
Why don't you simply admit you wouldn't even give a fuck if that happened.
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  #828  
Old 12-03-2013, 09:29 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Why don't you simply admit you wouldn't even give a fuck if that happened.
Consider also: an Alliance fan who becomes a Horde fan can very easily still hate the Forsaken.

Look at Lor'themar himself.
  #829  
Old 12-03-2013, 10:16 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I wonder what this says about orc ethics, honor, and general worldviews.
Well, Kargath never tried to conquer/genocide humanity. All he ever did was fighting for the survival of Draenor orcs. Yet Orgrim is the biggest hero of the Horde, despite his failure of a genocidal world-conquering campaign.

Seriously, the only thing that was actually bad about Kargath...

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I maintain that it means Thrall had no idea Kargath was a member of the Shadow Council who suggested to Gul'dan that they assassinate Durotan, back before the portal was built.
Was this part.

I'd almost chalk it up to "random novel weirdness" like with the Cycle of Hatred and Of Blood and Honor. This... random shadow councilor part sticks out against all the other portrayals, even the TBC one!
  #830  
Old 12-03-2013, 01:37 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Orgrim knew Thrall personally. That is probably the only reason Thrall sees him differently.

So Orgrim not drinking the demon blood use to be this big thing. It doesn't really matter anymore now does it?
  #831  
Old 12-03-2013, 01:43 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Orgrim knew Thrall personally. That is probably the only reason Thrall sees him differently.

So Orgrim not drinking the demon blood use to be this big thing. It doesn't really matter anymore now does it?
He also helped to free Orcs from the Alliance and wasn't a pawn of Gul'dan.
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  #832  
Old 12-03-2013, 01:45 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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He also helped to free Orcs from the Alliance and wasn't a pawn of Gul'dan.
I suppose he was an orcish patriot even though he tried to kill the elves!
  #833  
Old 12-03-2013, 01:48 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I suppose he was an orcish patriot even though he tried to kill the elves!
Everyone has, even other Elves.
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  #834  
Old 12-03-2013, 03:57 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Everyone has, even other Elves.
The elves connection to trolls now confirmed.
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  #835  
Old 12-03-2013, 05:07 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
He also helped to free Orcs from the Alliance and wasn't a pawn of Gul'dan.
If Gul'dan had been skilled enough to get what he wanted from the Tomb of Sargeras, then today we would be saying that he played Doomhammer like a fiddle.
  #836  
Old 12-03-2013, 06:28 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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If Gul'dan had been skilled enough to get what he wanted from the Tomb of Sargeras, then today we would be saying that he played Doomhammer like a fiddle.
It's a bit silly that the demons killed Gul'dan. If the ones at the Tomb of Sargeras kept him alive, then it's possible that the Horde's bigger objective against Azeroth (as per the desire of the Burning Legion itself) would have been more successful.
  #837  
Old 12-03-2013, 06:57 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
It's a bit silly that the demons killed Gul'dan. If the ones at the Tomb of Sargeras kept him alive, then it's possible that the Horde's bigger objective against Azeroth (as per the desire of the Burning Legion itself) would have been more successful.
For a while, my headcanon was that the daemons/Sargeras simply wanted Gul'dan to open the tomb, and that would release and expose something really important because reasons.

But now it's been years and years since that event, and nothing came of it.
  #838  
Old 12-03-2013, 07:03 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Remember, just because they're demons doesn't mean they serve the legion. When Aegwynn buried the avatar of Sargeras in the tomb, it's rather unlikely that she put the corpse in a tomb that already contained demons, since that would be stupid. Instead, it seems more likely that the energies of the corpse itself somehow either summoned or created the demons.

This means that the demons there in no way represented the actual legion hierarchy. Hence, attacking Gul'dan and Illidan's forces, even when they were fulfilling the plans of Kil'jaeden. Even if they were members of the legion before, they wouldn't know not to attack Gul'dan and Illidan unless they were kept in the loop.
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  #839  
Old 12-03-2013, 07:12 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Didn't Gul'dan want to become godlike in power, not serve the Legion?
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  #840  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:19 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
Didn't Gul'dan want to become godlike in power, not serve the Legion?
That's how I remember it, after opening the tomb he hoped to get his hands on something powerful enough to make him just as powerful as Kil'Jaeden and friends, I might not be remembering that right though.
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  #841  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:32 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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The Story Forums needs more mods. A lot of those forums do.
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  #842  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:34 PM
Caith Caith is offline

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The Story Forums needs more mods. A lot of those forums do.
Yeah they do, didn't the lose the only one they ever really had via Nyorloth right?
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  #843  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:37 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Yeah they do, didn't the lose the only one they ever really had via Nyorloth right?
He was active for like three days before Blizzard sacked him. It was sad and, on Blizzard's part, pathetic.

I dunno why he doesn't come back to post here though.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #844  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:39 PM
Caith Caith is offline

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He was active for like three days before Blizzard sacked him. It was sad and, on Blizzard's part, pathetic.

I dunno why he doesn't come back to post here though.
3 part sadness 1 part regret....or maybe one of us is secretly a new account of his....I think we are going to have to go with IgoD pretty safe bet.
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  #845  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:44 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
And the race and culture that was targeted is still well represented - in the Alliance. The Blood Elves, like the Forsaken, exist because of the Scourge but the Scourge is not particularly relevant in their racial narrative. You'll notice that after the Scourge left the Blood Elf narrative was all about fel magic and Illidan and Kael'thas and Outland and the Naaru. The Sunwell could've been defiled by Furbolgs and the Blood Elf narrative would be exactly the same.

The Scourge in Razorfen Downs was actually closer in proximity to Theramore than any major Horde settlement. That is more like the Scourge was part of the Human narrative even in Kalimdor on the other side of the planet.

I don't see why the Alliance not fighting them until the middle of their leveling path is relevant. They don't encounter them for a while because their entire leveling curve from 1-60 is defined by the fact that human civilization had to move its center of power to the Azerothian subcontinent in the wake of the Scourge's attack on the Alliance.

No they aren't. Next.

One wing for Blood Elves (that also had humans in it) versus an entire expansion for the Alliance.
Fojar this is completely insane. It is painfully obvious here that you are the one that is trying to rationalize with the explicit purpose to try to marginalize your detractors and support your own position. Even if you are the only one that believes this. Even if the creators themselves of the fictional universe don't believe this, and I know that you know that they don't. Why should anyone here buy into this revision?

The Alliance didn't fight the Quilboar before that point.

It is very relevant. The Alliance was closer to the black dragons, black rock orcs, and dark iron dwarves than they were to the Scourge. You don't get to deal with the later until you are a higher level and you fight them on the other side of the world.

And why not Fojar? Why shouldn't mindless zombies from Lordaeron be a concern to the free willed zombies of Lordaeron?

The Horde was part of that expansion too. They had quests as well.
  #846  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:46 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Are we "really" going to be getting a horde/orc themed Chimera before fucking Night Elves get theirs? Mother fuckers.
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  #847  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:48 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Fojar this is completely insane. It is painfully obvious here that you are the one that is trying to rationalize with the explicit purpose to try to marginalize your detractors and support your own position. Even if you are the only one that believes this. Even if the creators themselves of the fictional universe don't believe this, and I know that you know that they don't. Why should anyone here buy into this revision?
It's not a revision; point out one thing I said that isn't factually accurate.

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The Alliance didn't fight the Quilboar before that point.
So? You realize that the Alliance fights things for the first time at least once, right? The fact that the first time they fight the Quilboar is when the Quilboar ally with the Scourge seems to help my argument.

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It is very relevant. The Alliance was closer to the black dragons, black rock orcs, and dark iron dwarves than they were to the Scourge. You don't get to deal with the later until you are a higher level and you fight them on the other side of the world.
Sorry, maybe you missed the part of my post where I asked you to explain how this is relevant and how it somehow nullifies the Scourge's relevance in the Alliance narrative.

Shit that doesn't happen until endgame is just as relevant to racial narrative as stuff that happens in your starting zone.

Quote:
And why not Fojar? Why shouldn't mindless zombies from Lordaeron be a concern to the free willed zombies of Lordaeron?
Neither of them are from Lordaeron, for one thing.

And if they were such a concern you have to wonder why the Forsaken never seriously engaged them and instead spent all their time sacking human towns and monasteries.

Quote:
The Horde was part of that expansion too. They had quests as well.
Remember how the Lich King was personally interacting with the Alliance player as soon as they got off the boat? Remember how Arthas personally oversaw operations against Valgarde and Valiance Keep while ignoring Warsong Hold, the only Scourge command presence there being a hologram of Kel'thuzad?

Remember when the one time he interacts with the Horde player he says that they're "meddling" and basically rolls his eyes at them? Remember how he personally ordered Naxxramas to lay siege to Wintergarde and barely even acknowledged any Horde fortifications?

Remember at the Wrathgate when Saurfang is uncerimoniously one-shot while Bolvar actually verbally spars with Arthas and calls him a traitor to the Alliance and that he'll pay for the blood of Lordaeron and Terenas?

Yeah, the Horde was completely irrelevant to the WotLK narrative, Blood Elves and Forsaken included. The Horde narrative in WotLK was setting up for Cataclysm and Mists and had nothing to do with the Scourge.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #848  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:50 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You are right Fojar.
  #849  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:50 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You are right Fojar.
Sigged.
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  #850  
Old 12-03-2013, 08:51 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Are we "really" going to be getting a horde/orc themed Chimera before fucking Night Elves get theirs? Mother fuckers.
Really? Are we doing this?
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