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  #126  
Old 08-26-2012, 03:20 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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So, after Tides of War, how should we consider the Kirin Tor on the political spectrum?

The book seems to confirm that the Kirin Tor fighting alongside the Alliance in-game wasn't a fluke as they're actually willing to defend Alliance holdings from the Horde. But they're also still neutral.

This doesn't seem to compute. You'd think that the Horde would be sufficiently indignant to reject Dalaran's claims of neutrality as a result.

Futhermore, with them choosing a member of the Alliance who has readily said that she wants to fight the Horde as their leader, what does that bode for the Kirin Tor's future and any neutral designs they may have?
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  #127  
Old 08-26-2012, 03:28 PM
emperium emperium is offline

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With any luck I'm hoping the Sunreavers as whole does secretly support Garrosh and they were the ones who provided the plan for the mana bomb/knowledge about the Focusing Iris. And Jaina/Vereesa learn about it forcing Dalaran to expel them.

Well I can dream cant I?
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  #128  
Old 08-26-2012, 03:35 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by emperium View Post
With any luck I'm hoping the Sunreavers as whole does secretly support Garrosh and they were the ones who provided the plan for the mana bomb/knowledge about the Focusing Iris. And Jaina/Vereesa learn about forcing Dalaran to expel them.

Well I can dream cant I?
It'd give us something to do between Siege of Orgrimmar and patch 5.0.

Especially considering Pandaria's problems are largely solved in the first patch of the expansion.
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  #129  
Old 08-26-2012, 03:38 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
So, after Tides of War, how should we consider the Kirin Tor on the political spectrum?

The book seems to confirm that the Kirin Tor fighting alongside the Alliance in-game wasn't a fluke as they're actually willing to defend Alliance holdings from the Horde. But they're also still neutral.

This doesn't seem to compute. You'd think that the Horde would be sufficiently indignant to reject Dalaran's claims of neutrality as a result.

Futhermore, with them choosing a member of the Alliance who has readily said that she wants to fight the Horde as their leader, what does that bode for the Kirin Tor's future and any neutral designs they may have?
They were acting as a deterrent because Garrosh was using Dark Magic.

Garrosh planned and killed a Kirin Tor Leader
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  #130  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:11 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I'm curious as to how people would think that Pandaria's problems would be solved after the first patch, when the entire theme of the expansion is the gradual destruction and corruption of a magical and peaceful land through escalating warfare and factional conflict.

We must also look at the Six's ACTUAL words when they reasoned as they did. Only two of the Six were in favor of aiding Theramore - the third and deciding vote belonging to Aethas Sunreaver, who is also regarded as Modera's lapdog by the Blood Elves (or at least by Rommath).

They reasoned that their intervention was not to protect Theramore, because it was Theramore, but rather because allowing the Horde to gain control of Kalimdor would be to deny their neutrality through inaction (Yeah, I have no idea how they are rationalizing this, either).

Mind, the Earthen Ring has a similar moment of realization when they ponder what Garrosh might do with Nordrassil and Teldrassil.
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  #131  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:15 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I'm curious as to how people would think that Pandaria's problems would be solved after the first patch, when the entire theme of the expansion is the gradual destruction and corruption of a magical and peaceful land through escalating warfare and factional conflict.

We must also look at the Six's ACTUAL words when they reasoned as they did. Only two of the Six were in favor of aiding Theramore - the third and deciding vote belonging to Aethas Sunreaver, who is also regarded as Modera's lapdog by the Blood Elves (or at least by Rommath).

They reasoned that their intervention was not to protect Theramore, because it was Theramore, but rather because allowing the Horde to gain control of Kalimdor would be to deny their neutrality through inaction (Yeah, I have no idea how they are rationalizing this, either).

Mind, the Earthen Ring has a similar moment of realization when they ponder what Garrosh might do with Nordrassil and Teldrassil.
That Aethas voted for helping can easily be explained that he as a Horde agent wanted a man on the inside besides wanting to deal the Kirin Tor a crippling blow with low chance of being blamed for it by making said agent into a scapegoat. That Rhonin decided to go to Theramore was probably just an extreme stroke of luck for little Aethas.
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  #132  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:18 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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That Aethas voted for helping can easily be explained that he as a Horde agent wanted a man on the inside besides wanting to deal the Kirin Tor a crippling blow with low chance of being blamed for it by making said agent into a scapegoat. That Rhonin decided to go to Theramore was probably just an extreme stroke of luck for little Aethas.
Except it would still contradict his prior characterization.
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  #133  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:21 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Except it would still contradict his prior characterization.
People change! Just look at Garrosh who once actually considered honor as something to strive for or Varian who once was driven only by his rage.

Even Jaina can be used as an example as she once could never see herself becoming someone who would seek confrontation with the Horde.
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  #134  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:23 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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People change! Just look at Garrosh who once actually considered honor as something to strive for or Varian who once was driven only by his rage.
Garrosh still thinks he's being honorable, and Varian got an injection of magical druid help to fix his rage (despite still being favored by a demigod who's supposedly himself got rage issues).

Seems like it'd be pretty blatantly counter-productive for someone so keen to reunite the mage community to turn around and start plotting to give the Horde and Alliance reasons to destroy it. Especially since the victories over Malygos and the Scourge pretty much vindicated Aethas' ideals, the same ideals that Rommath especially was dead set against.
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  #135  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:26 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Garrosh still thinks he's being honorable, and Varian got an injection of magical druid help to fix his rage (despite still being favored by a demigod who's supposedly himself got rage issues).

Seems like it'd be pretty blatantly counter-productive for someone so keen to reunite the mage community to turn around and start plotting to give the Horde and Alliance reasons to destroy it.
It could also be that he did it to strengthen the blood elves role among the Kirin Tor by taking out those who would chose to support the Alliance. Those who died at Theramore can all be considered as Alliance supporters. That his double agent was discovered and that Jaina survived it to become the new leader can probably be considered as setbacks for Aethas.
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  #136  
Old 08-26-2012, 06:10 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Seems like it'd be pretty blatantly counter-productive for someone so keen to reunite the mage community to turn around and start plotting to give the Horde and Alliance reasons to destroy it. Especially since the victories over Malygos and the Scourge pretty much vindicated Aethas' ideals, the same ideals that Rommath especially was dead set against.
Yes, but people who go lolinsane don't really do it because it's productive, rational, or even voluntary. Blizzard has derailed characters before, and will derail them in the future.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #137  
Old 08-26-2012, 06:15 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Yes, but people who go lolinsane don't really do it because it's productive, rational, or even voluntary. Blizzard has derailed characters before, and will derail them in the future.
Have you anything constructive to say, or is your contribution to any discussion limited to "all is lost, everything sucks, it always will, nothing will change, bitch bitch bitch."?
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  #138  
Old 08-26-2012, 07:32 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Now you're catching on!

Edit: Besides, what little I post that may be constructive seems to get ignored... Or happens to be wrong/not possible, like in the "why didn't the Horde have a debate on whether it'd be ethical to force the panicking elementals before the Shattering to supply the Horde with good weather?" issue I bought up a few months ago being answered with "the Shaman manga already ruled that possibility out".
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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia : 08-26-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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  #139  
Old 08-27-2012, 12:40 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Now you're catching on!

Edit: Besides, what little I post that may be constructive seems to get ignored... Or happens to be wrong/not possible, like in the "why didn't the Horde have a debate on whether it'd be ethical to force the panicking elementals before the Shattering to supply the Horde with good weather?" issue I bought up a few months ago being answered with "the Shaman manga already ruled that possibility out".
And Tides of War gives the middle finger to that manga with Garrosh new pet dark shaman.
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