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Old 10-23-2011, 09:58 PM
Vil'rexin Vil'rexin is offline

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Default Garrosh's Future

With what little bit of information IGoD was able to provide us from what Metzen told him, I feel it's big enough to warrant a thread of it's own. Let's look at what we know first and then make our own theories.

Detective Work

Credit goes to Genesis for digging up all of those posts.

Now I'll throw around some of my predictions as to what might happen with Ol'Gary.

1) Due to the destruction of Theramore and possible later attacks in MoP, Thrall deems that Garrosh has gone mad with power and must be relinquished of his position. Thrall challenges him to a duel and either has to kill him on purpose or perhaps kills him by accident. Thrall once again becomes Warchief and possibly returns some lands back to the Alliance (going with the "make ally fanboys happy" part).

2) Same as #1 but instead of dying, Garrosh is defeated in combat and simply demoted to a lower position like Leader of the Orcs instead of Warchief of the Horde. Maybe he takes Saurfang Sr's place if we don't see from him again.

3) This prediction is based mostly on Metzen's comment from 2010 when he said something along the lines of, "How much will you love the Horde when you have to fight for it?". I could see a sort of Battle of Undercity happening with Orgrimmar with Garrosh being the big bad. No, he's not corrupt or anything, just his old self who is deemed mad with power. Alliance forces would be led by Varian/Jaina/Tyrande? attacking Orgrimmar from behind while Horde forces would be led by Thrall/Vol'jin/Baine attacking from the front gates. After disposing of Garrosh, both factions would get into a dispute about the Horde's future and of course, Jaina would convince Varian and Tyrande to allow Thrall to take the reigns once again.

4)Garrosh is a Hellscream and it's not too uncommon for a son to repeat the actions of his father in certain literature. Knowing that we will be involved in a big war, it's possible that maybe Garrosh makes a sacrifice for the Horde with Thrall present. Maybe it's against the Alliance, Old Gods, who knows?

5) This is my cynical "I think Metzen could take this somewhere cheesy" prediction. Before I go on, I think Metzen has done a stand-up job for the most part but he has done things I don't agree with before or is about to do like with the High King Wrynn questline coming up. Anyway, we do know from artwork that these Sha can possess creatures and use their hatred as power. Garrosh has plenty of that for the Alliance. It's possible that he leaves himself open for this and becomes the last boss in a Sha raid at the end of the expansion. I really hate this theory and don't want it to happen but...Kael'thas and all, ya know?

So I'll leave it at that and look forward to your predictions. Please, for the sake of black Jesus, let's try our best to keep this discussion as civil as possible.

Final note: IGoD, if you don't feel comfortable with this thread up, I'd be glad to request that the Mods delete it.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:04 PM
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I don't think it's any of those.

Jaina's going to be mighty pissed at Thrall for leaving Garrosh in charge.

I just... ugh.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:07 PM
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Seems pretty likely to me that Garrosh is getting bumped off before too long, causing all sorts of old world time paradoxes.

Killed by Varian, Vol'jin, Saurfang, his own stupidity, I don't know.

We'll see.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:09 AM
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Please feel free to cross-check my "detective work" more closely.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:15 AM
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Fuckit.

In defiance of all characterization in the shattering and everywhere else, Garrosh clearly went behind everyone's backs and tried to get Thrall captured by the Alliance in order to make him have a more warlike stance.

Clearly.

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Old 10-24-2011, 12:50 AM
Vil'rexin Vil'rexin is offline

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I went over the posts again and the quote "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" stuck out. Maybe Garrosh takes the war too far for Thrall's liking and Theramore is the beginning of that? I think the one constant we can 100% agree to though is that Thrall is involved since Metzen said Garrosh really is just apart of his story.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:18 AM
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I went over the posts again and the quote "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" stuck out. Maybe Garrosh takes the war too far for Thrall's liking and Theramore is the beginning of that? I think the one constant we can 100% agree to though is that Thrall is involved since Metzen said Garrosh really is just apart of his story.
An attack on Theramore is reasonable, given the context of the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Durotar, but I think the divisive issue - both within the leadership of the Horde and Alliance - will be the use of disproportionate force (i.e. leveling Theramore). Theramore presents an appropriate target for creating a foil with Thrall, who was also responsible for assaulting Theramore. Where the assault by Thrall was far more surgical, I just cannot see Garrosh doing anything remotely as precise as surgery. Even his clever maneuverings and strategies in Wolfheart were fairly blunt.

ETA: I think that one of the biggest issues facing the Horde is that it lacks any positive long-term future. By that I mean, the Horde needs a vision for the future that can survive past Thrall. The Alliance has Anduin, who is an admittedly controversial character. But the Horde has Garrosh, who is beating the orcs with the stupid villain bat. There is the promise of Thrall, but Thrall's departure and potential future return makes it seem that the Horde could not survive past Thrall. And this is an issue that Blizzard should probably address at some point.

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Old 10-24-2011, 04:06 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Seems funny how a few months ago, the fanboys were yelling 'omg Garrosh is sooo awesome he not going anywhere!'. Now, after theramore destruction by his command, its all 'Wow, Garrosh is gonna diiiiie'.

He's a tool character. He was brought into it to create conflict for this war were in now. At blizzcon, Metzen made it perfectly clear they don't intend to level some deep meaning to Garrosh's character other then being a single minded tyrent.

Of course he's going to die, or get removed, its just now more then obvious who the bad guy is in this war, unlike the other horde leaders (save sylvanas), and that Varian is being painted in the same light that Thrall has been, I think its bloody obvious Garrosh's days will be numbed, if not at the end of this expac coming, then the next.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:38 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Nothing will happen. the Horde will keep rolling on through and Green Jesus will use his new Earth Warder powers to wipe out anything in the Horde's way.


In all seriousness, I hope Garrosh dies and dies painfully. Then again, I hope that on Sylvanas and Gallywix as well.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:01 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Nothing will happen. the Horde will keep rolling on through and Green Jesus will use his new Earth Warder powers to wipe out anything in the Horde's way.


In all seriousness, I hope Garrosh dies and dies painfully. Then again, I hope that on Sylvanas and Gallywix as well.
This is Thrall we're talking about here. If he has to use such powers to just kill humans he wouldn't be able to, if that makes sense, read lord of the clans if it doesn't.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:12 AM
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They have really been setting up the fact that Thrall is regretful for bringing in Garrosh.

They showed in the Troll starting zone that he promoted him because he believes Garrosh would have what it takes to lead, but after Thrall learned about Cairne, and all his anger shown in his elemental questline, it seems he is not so sure of the new warchief's recent choices. Theramore is actually a perfect catalyst for Thrall to realize how much of a mistake he made. Thrall and Jaina left on a sour note because she didn't trust Garrosh, and now her fears are going to be realized, and Thrall is going to feel the fool.

Remember, it was Cairne, Vol'jin (in the background), and Jaina that technically joined together with him during a good part of WC3 (The night elves only joined for the end, the final battle). Cairne is now dead, Vol'jin and his people mostly displaced (at least implied in lore, the VoS sure has a nice large troll district), and now Jaina is going to lose her kingdom and possibly a lot of her friends, depending on how bloodthirsty Garrosh is during the siege. Thrall is going to see many of the people that helped him on his journey go through death or hardship, all because of his choice.

Do I think Thrall will come back for MoP or even the next expansion? No. Such a change would be too soon. Thrall will instead be bound by duty to work with the Aspects to finish repairing the world, maybe even being held back a bit by his own angers and regrets, plus the fact he wants to start a family with Aggra (to be honest I hope she dies before that happens).

I have a theory, and this is a large one out of left field, but I think they had prepared for another large change to the old world. Nothing on the level of Cataclysm, but instead some updates to zones to repair some of the Cataclysm's damage, repair areas like Stormwind and such. We are going to go through MoP with Garrosh, the war getting worst as they spill into Pandaria. The next expansion is going to concentrate on the MASSIVE war they have hinted, maybe even adding zones capturing and such, before going into what I think will be the final WoW expansion, which will see the return of Thrall, who will not be the one to kill Garrosh but to pick up the pieces after he dies (liked at the hands of other heroes, maybe a Jaina and Vol'jin tag team? I would like to see that), leading back into an uneasy peace as a new threat comes out of the shadows.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:23 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Originally Posted by ScytheRexx View Post
They have really been setting up the fact that Thrall is regretful for bringing in Garrosh.

They showed in the Troll starting zone that he promoted him because he believes Garrosh would have what it takes to lead, but after Thrall learned about Cairne, and all his anger shown in his elemental questline, it seems he is not so sure of the new warchief's recent choices. Theramore is actually a perfect catalyst for Thrall to realize how much of a mistake he made. Thrall and Jaina left on a sour note because she didn't trust Garrosh, and now her fears are going to be realized, and Thrall is going to feel the fool.

Remember, it was Cairne, Vol'jin (in the background), and Jaina that technically joined together with him during a good part of WC3 (The night elves only joined for the end, the final battle). Cairne is now dead, Vol'jin and his people mostly displaced (at least implied in lore, the VoS sure has a nice large troll district), and now Jaina is going to lose her kingdom and possibly a lot of her friends, depending on how bloodthirsty Garrosh is during the siege. Thrall is going to see many of the people that helped him on his journey go through death or hardship, all because of his choice.

Do I think Thrall will come back for MoP or even the next expansion? No. Such a change would be too soon. Thrall will instead be bound by duty to work with the Aspects to finish repairing the world, maybe even being held back a bit by his own angers and regrets, plus the fact he wants to start a family with Aggra (to be honest I hope she dies before that happens).

I have a theory, and this is a large one out of left field, but I think they had prepared for another large change to the old world. Nothing on the level of Cataclysm, but instead some updates to zones to repair some of the Cataclysm's damage, repair areas like Stormwind and such. We are going to go through MoP with Garrosh, the war getting worst as they spill into Pandaria. The next expansion is going to concentrate on the MASSIVE war they have hinted, maybe even adding zones capturing and such, before going into what I think will be the final WoW expansion, which will see the return of Thrall, who will not be the one to kill Garrosh but to pick up the pieces after he dies (liked at the hands of other heroes, maybe a Jaina and Vol'jin tag team? I would like to see that), leading back into an uneasy peace as a new threat comes out of the shadows.

I'd like to believe this, but you have to remember - Thrall is Horde at heart. His people now support Garrosh 100% because he's fighting war - they didn't like Thrall and his pacifism. If he speaks out against Garrosh and his troika(Bloodhilt, Zaela, Sylvanas) - he may face a full-scale attack on himself.

Thrall's also not a fan of the Alliance. I think in his heat of hearts, he supports a war against them. But he doesn't want to fight them with the way Garosh is. He'd rather destroy them slowly and methodically, as revenge for the internment camps.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:26 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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I have a theory, and this is a large one out of left field, but I think they had prepared for another large change to the old world. Nothing on the level of Cataclysm, but instead some updates to zones to repair some of the Cataclysm's damage, repair areas like Stormwind and such. We are going to go through MoP with Garrosh, the war getting worst as they spill into Pandaria. The next expansion is going to concentrate on the MASSIVE war they have hinted, maybe even adding zones capturing and such, before going into what I think will be the final WoW expansion, which will see the return of Thrall, who will not be the one to kill Garrosh but to pick up the pieces after he dies (liked at the hands of other heroes, maybe a Jaina and Vol'jin tag team? I would like to see that), leading back into an uneasy peace as a new threat comes out of the shadows.
This really make a lot of sense. In truth, I want to see Thrall return before it, like at the end of MoP or into the next expansion, with us seeing how that goes. But its going to have to be something that gives reason why Thrall can return and how.
We know its obvious its gearing up for his return, metzen himself has hinted at this in several debates. The thing being how long, and will this end the current war around it?

Quote:
I'd like to believe this, but you have to remember - Thrall is Horde at heart. His people now support Garrosh 100% because he's fighting war - they didn't like Thrall and his pacifism. If he speaks out against Garrosh and his troika(Bloodhilt, Zaela, Sylvanas) - he may face a full-scale attack on himself.

Thrall's also not a fan of the Alliance. I think in his heat of hearts, he supports a war against them. But he doesn't want to fight them with the way Garosh is. He'd rather destroy them slowly and methodically, as revenge for the internment camps.
You forget, Thrall is a completely different leader to Garrosh. Why would you think he would support what he's done? You really think that? Cause thats not how Thrall works, he wanted peace for his people for years, he was prepared to fight if need be but he sort a way to keep peace as long as he could.

What Garrosh represents is the orcs degrading back to the old dark days of the first horde when they thought to themselves that they could take anything they wanted and crush anything in there way. This is why orcs follow him because of that bloodlust, its also what beat the old horde into the ground when the alliance beat them back

What I believe, is just like how the first horde in there lust for conquest was beaten back and flattened by the alliance, we are going to see history repeat itself here, kind of, that the alliance is soon going to strike back at the horde more fearce then anything the horde has done, and with that, this will signal Thralls return at a time when the horde needs him most.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:35 AM
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This really make a lot of sense. In truth, I want to see Thrall return before it, like at the end of MoP or into the next expansion, with us seeing how that goes. But its going to have to be something that gives reason why Thrall can return and how.
We know its obvious its gearing up for his return, metzen himself has hinted at this in several debates. The thing being how long, and will this end the current war around it?
I am a big believer that Garrosh helped to orchestrate Thrall's capture by the SI:7 - either by leaking the information through neutral goblin contacts or by simply writing an anon letter to them. I believe Garrosh -wanted- Thrall out of the way, killed in an Alliance attack, just so he could justify a military buildup of the Horde and a six-or seven pronged attack into the Kalimdor holdings of the treaty(Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Azshara, Barrens, Desolace, Darkshore).

Mostly due to the Goblin quest where you deliver the SI:7 Insignia to Garrosh at Grommash Hold:

"Thrall had you deliver this?

<The Warchief takes a step back, visibly shaken.>

I understand the meaning of this all too well, <race>."

I could be wrong, but it seems like Thrall was aware of the set-up and sent Garrosh a message: "Nice try"
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:36 AM
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Thrall's also not a fan of the Alliance. I think in his heat of hearts, he supports a war against them. But he doesn't want to fight them with the way Garosh is. He'd rather destroy them slowly and methodically, as revenge for the internment camps.

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Old 10-24-2011, 08:37 AM
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I base this off the Elemental Bonds quest; where he goes all rage on Varian and says he''s going to run blood through Stormwind and split his throne in two. He's got some buried hate for the Alliance. No doubt.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:38 AM
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I am a big believer that Garrosh helped to orchestrate Thrall's capture by the SI:7 - either by leaking the information through neutral goblin contacts or by simply writing an anon letter to them. I believe Garrosh -wanted- Thrall out of the way, killed in an Alliance attack, just so he could justify a military buildup of the Horde and a six-or seven pronged attack into the Kalimdor holdings of the treaty(Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Azshara, Barrens, Desolace, Darkshore).

Mostly due to the Goblin quest where you deliver the SI:7 Insignia to Garrosh at Grommash Hold:

"Thrall had you deliver this?

<The Warchief takes a step back, visibly shaken.>

I understand the meaning of this all too well, <race>."

I could be wrong, but it seems like Thrall was aware of the set-up and sent Garrosh a message: "Nice try"
I agree, I thought this too. Its become very obvious of late events that Thrall regrets his choices with Garrosh.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:39 AM
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I agree, I thought this too. Its become very obvious of late events that Thrall regrets his choices with Garrosh.
It's a shame Saurfang the Younger died - He would have made an epic Warchief. Someone who was a good mix of old and new - ready to fight for the Horde, but also ready to extend a hand in friendship to the Alliance.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:43 AM
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I base this off the Elemental Bonds quest; where he goes all rage on Varian and says he''s going to run blood through Stormwind and split his throne in two. He's got some buried hate for the Alliance. No doubt.
The same quest where he kneels at Varians feet and lays down the doomhammer?
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:44 AM
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Thrall's also not a fan of the Alliance. I think in his heat of hearts, he supports a war against them. But he doesn't want to fight them with the way Garosh is. He'd rather destroy them slowly and methodically, as revenge for the internment camps.
He is not a fan of what the Alliance wants to do with the Horde, but that does not mean he hates them, or wants a war with them. It was made clear in the Elemental Bonds Questline that part of Thrall wants to just disband the Horde and give up to the Alliance rather then start more wars. It was even made clear during the Battle of the Undercity, when Thrall felt depressed when Varian declared war on him. There was not relief or jubilation, no raising his hammer in triumph, only sadness and regret.

Thrall has always been reactionary, and he only takes what he believes his people will need. This is one of the reason so many support Garrosh, because back when Thrall was leading, he didn't want to push hard into Ashenvale, he didn't want to fight wars, and he even picked Durotar as atonement for past sins because it was barren and difficult to live. Many of the younger orcs resented him because they were suffering more then their believes they should under his command, with only the older orcs realizing why he made the choices he did.

Would Thrall splinter Stormwind if they burned Orgrimmar to the ground? Yes, he would. Would he go to Stormwind himself and raze it when his people are not in trouble? No, he needs to have a reason.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:44 AM
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The same quest where he kneels at Varians feet and lays down the doomhammer?
perhaps Thrall suffers from some kind of bi-polar disorder? I mean...not to the same extent as Garrosh, but he's conflicted personality wise; one hand he wants to split Varian's throne, on the other he wants to embrace Varian like a brother.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:45 AM
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It's a shame Saurfang the Younger died - He would have made an epic Warchief. Someone who was a good mix of old and new - ready to fight for the Horde, but also ready to extend a hand in friendship to the Alliance.
I think now there is a reason for that. Garrosh is so completely the opposing end of the scale of how Thrall would rule, that it sets him as as the perfect leader to take down later.

Consider, they wanted to spark an all out war, but they couldn't do it with Varian and Thrall against each other. They needed a way to make the alliance going to war against the horde justifed.
So, they removed Thrall for the time being, and placed in a character who was the perfect reasoning for making war come back in the game.

The thing though, with war, you have to have an end to it. You need to have one side winning eventully in one aspect or another. I think its obvious now they made a choice a while ago that they intended to make war happen between horde and alliance again, only, to have one side win, the other had to lose the leader.

Theres a reason metzen has no intension on having Garrosh become a developed and deep character, like Thrall and Varian. Theres a reason he won't allow any books about Garrosh. Because Garrosh is being set up as the perfect antagonist, both to the alliance, and to the hordes morality.

This way, when Garrosh is dead, the horde will have to fight to beat the alliance back, and this will single a return for the hordes true warchief. Thrall has that ability to bring the horde races together as one, which Garrosh is breaking down, so thats what he will do I believe.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:49 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
perhaps Thrall suffers from some kind of bi-polar disorder? I mean...not to the same extent as Garrosh, but he's conflicted personality wise; one hand he wants to split Varian's throne, on the other he wants to embrace Varian like a brother.
You mean... he has complex thoughts and desires?

How -strange-!
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  #24  
Old 10-24-2011, 08:49 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I think Garrosh's future is set in stone. He is doomed to die. Always has been. The only questions remaining are who, when, by what means, and what effect it will have on the story moving forward.



Personally, I won't be happy if the War ends with Thrall's return. I won't be happy if it ends on the Horde's terms. However, I'm roughly 80% sure it will at this point.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:50 AM
Divider Divider is offline

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Thrall's emotions were split into four separate parts, and amplified like crazy hellgate spiritual INSANITY! plus a spoon full of pepper. You are not supposed to divine his actual intentions from that questline, only what are some of the darker and more secret thoughts he has from time to time.

As for Garrosh, well, I thought they could've done so much more with a character like him. But in the end, Grom was, is, and always will be the better character. Just make some official art of him looking like he was described and not as the Incredible Hulk, and all will be fine.

Last edited by Divider; 10-24-2011 at 08:53 AM..
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