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  #26  
Old 07-06-2016, 11:44 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Divine. Etheric. Primal. Eldritch.
What's Eldritch about? Or do we not talk about eldritch magic?
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  #27  
Old 07-06-2016, 05:26 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Runes

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
What's Eldritch about? Or do we not talk about eldritch magic?
Some nations, schools, and faiths decry eldritch magic as inherently dangerous, unraveling the fabric of reality, and suggest it is best left alone by any sane person

Others figure that while those fears are well founded (an area the size of canada is covered by the corpse of one eldritch entity, scavengers have picked at it since time immemorial, water flows up in its vicinity, time does not flow properly, sound and light are muffled, and there is a dormant one frozen in an area the size of Russia to the east of the Valterris Dominion )

...they think it can still be studied and utilized safely, or should be studied to better combat its effects

Orcs developed necromancy and liches after, but independent of humans and other species, to combat such creatures and magics
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  #28  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:03 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Update time, I guess. Remember actual names aren't representative, since they cover multiple things at once. Their only purpose is to give you a quick idea of what they do, and be able to refer to them easily.

Ideally, I should make up my own names for them later on, but I don't have something final yet, so we'll stick to the simple versions.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Elements:

Elements themselves do not represent magic. Instead, elemental forces are channeled through them. Both elements and their forces are represented in a wheel.
  • Earth (top-left)
  • Water (top-right)
  • Air (bottom-right)
  • Life (bottom-left)
Elements are not really important, and don't have an associated symbology. Among scholars their only purpose is that of categorization for the elemental forces.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Elemental forces:

Each element has two elemental forces, one chaos (effects cannot be reversed), and another order (effects can be reversed). Every element's chaos force is opposed to the next element's order force. So, fire (chaos earth) is opposed to ice (order water). Fire's effect (burning paper) cannot be reversed, but ice's effects (melting or freezing) can be reversed. Chaos changes the composition of matter, while order changes its state.
  • [2] Fire <Red> (Chaos+Earth)
  • [5] Frost <Cyan> (Order+Water)
  • [8] Illusion <Magenta> (Chaos+Water)
  • [6] Storm <Yellow> (Order+Air)
  • [3] Shadow <Black> (Chaos+Air)
  • [4] Light <White> (Order+Life)
  • [9] Bramble <Green> (Chaos+Life)
  • [7] Automata <Blue> (Order+Earth)
Each elemental force has a symbolic number, as well as a color. These can appear in places and creatures deeply connected to each elemental force. For example, in flowers, it can determine the number of petals, the patterns, or just small color markings.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Classes:

Not really related, but I feel like my magic system could be easier to understand with more context. There's six classes, and each one uses at least one elemental force. Classes can be divided in fighters (who favor empowering themselves with magic) or casters (who favor channeling it outwards). Each class has its own armor and fighting style, and all of them can use both melee and ranged weapons.
  • Guardian: Heavy armor fighter. Warriors, barbarians, paladins, and general melee archetypes, mostly based on classic European knights.
  • Priest: Medium/Heavy armor caster. Blade dancers, dervishes, and flagellant vibes. They wear long robes, reinforced with metal spikes, which cut through their enemies when they spin in place, and they favor weapons like greataxes and scythes. They also attach chains to one-handed weapons, turning them into flails when they want to.
  • Ranger: Medium armor fighter. Hunters, engineers, swashbucklers, gunslingers, and general modern soldier themes. Emphasis on fencing and marksmanship.
  • Sorcerer: Medium/Light armor caster. Mages, wizards, necromancers, warlocks, and other classic archetypes for magic users. Powerful long-range spells.
  • Archon: Heavy/Light armor fighter. Rogues, monks, assassins, and general Asian martial arts themes. They favor quarterstaves and sabers.
  • Occultist: Light armor caster. Shamans, witch doctors, ritualists, seers, and other less "disciplined" uses of magic. They don't always wield their weapons directly, levitating and juggling them instead.
These aren't final either, but I'm pretty happy with the names and overall themes. Each one would use each elemental force in a different manner, if that helps with the next section.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Detailed information on the elemental forces:
  • Fire covers ignition, explosives, some firearms, and muscles. Warrior archetypes channel fire to burn their energy and become stronger temporarily, while casters just release said energy while it's consumed. They burn the air around them constantly to generate more energy. Powerful casters go further and lit braziers around them to maximize combustion.
  • -
  • Frost might have one of the most misleading names, for in truth it covers temperature. This means both freezing and boiling are part of it, though freezing is its most used aspect. Changes of state can be very quick, and hard to react to. For example, an icy dart might turn into boiling water in the middle of its flight, and then turn into smaller darts again. The caster uses it by absorbing and releasing heat from the battlefield.
  • -
  • Illusion covers mind tricks of all kinds, distortion of the senses, and warping reality itself. Illusions are the most typical manifestation, be it nightmares turned seemingly real, nonexistent threats or objects, hiding real elements, or clones of the user. Illusory magic has three stages: Harmless illusion, which can't interact with anything, solid illusions, which can attack and damage targets, shattering in crystal pieces when broken, and twisted reality, an extremely rare case where the application of illusory magic has been so strong it has permanently warped reality. Illusory magic isn't just about that, though. It covers gravitational control as well, which allows levitation, teleportation, and reflection or deflection of projectiles. Illusion magic is used on portals, as well as in mind-communication, which is the most effective and safest way of transferring information at long range. Of all the elemental forces, it's the less natural and the most bizarre. Usage of music in combination with magic is heavily connected to it as well.
  • -
  • Storm covers control of electricity and wind, but not at an atmospheric level. Rain and hail aren't a direct part of these "storms", though they might appear if the situation is favorable. The winds are almost always accompanied by sand or other particles, that reinforce electricity conduction, as well as make said wind deadlier. A wind strike itself isn't very dangerous, but charge it with thousands of grains of sand, and it will blow holes in anything or anyone in front of it. The caster uses static electricity to charge energy, so movement and friction, either by the user or nearby winds, are widely favored. Physical contact allows shock attacks, though lightning bolts are also possible when not close enough.
  • -
  • Shadow covers stealth, death, camouflage, deception, and spirits. Most rogue archetypes fit inside here, as do necromancers. The classic concept of necromancy does not exist. Instead, "ghosts" can possess items, or even create temporary bodies. Desert spirits build mummy-like bodies for themselves from sand, bones, and scraps. A shadow caster can help those spirits take form easily, but they are never under his direct control. they can enter the spirit world as well, which lets them revive events from the past, and even interact with those alive at that moment, which can be useful to extract information. There's two types of "ghosts", memories, which live trapped in a moment of their lives, and eventually respawn after being destroyed, and still-alive shadow users, who can transcend to a ghostly form. A strong nearly-permanent memory is always projected at the final moments before death, but other specific situations through life can project them as well. Skilled shadow users can project these memories willingly, leaving recordings or pieces of themselves, that last until they run out of energy or are destroyed. Delving too much into spirits might turn the user pessimistic and cold. Outside spirits, they also use special types of poisons designed to hurt the soul more than the body, techniques that turn the air into light-eating smoke, and tricks to transform into ethereal forms to evade attacks, stay invisible, and jump short distances. They use souls as their resource, specially the resonance memory-ghosts leave, but most of the time they will be gathering their own energy they leave behind.
  • -
  • Light covers soul healing, cleansing, and high-intensity attacks. Its martial users are very fast, and their casters can shoot beams of concentrated energy, which barely anything can defend against. Their healing techniques are slow, but safe, and though they don't work well with very grave injuries, they can seal them and let the patient keep fighting, the wounds to be treated later. Lights empowers the soul, and lets those infused by it to keep fighting no matter the odds. Its users can also feel true emotions from others easily, and communicate with animals at a spiritual level. Using light too much might detach you from reality, and turn the users into emotionless creatures unable to understand things like the burden of basic day-to-day problems, or the emotional value people hold for specific things.
  • -
  • Bramble covers everything nature, but specially plants and insects. It's true name would be something like "overgrowth", for it accelerates growth of nearby lifeforms. This allows their users to quickly physically heal themselves or their partners, though it's usually very painful and exhausting, and only recommended in extreme situations. With enough energy, they can use regeneration techniques, which take a few days depending on the limb or the organ. They carry various seeds and insect eggs, and use their powers to make them hatch. Vines and brambles are their favorite tool, used as whips or grappling hooks. They can develop various plagues and poisons as well, and even parasitic lifeforms that can take control of corpses, healing their wounds and turning them into mindless hunger-driven plant zombies, though this is considered horrific and used only by criminals. They can communicate with animals, but only at a physical level.
  • -
  • Automata deals with machines, some firearms, robotics, waves, and weaponry based on vibration, including sound. Instead of using brute force, they channel vibrations at the right moment to maximize the power of their blows. They charge the vibratory energy in their bodies, and then unleash it in a chain reaction adjusted to their bodies, their robotic gear, and the battlefield, which they had already analyzed when the battle begun by using ground vibrations. They use robotics to amplify said energy, much like levers or gear trains. They can also control robotic minions through radio-like waves. These automatons don't need constant supervision, for they are programmed with a very basic AI, that allows them to follow basic orders. Think of something at the level of automatic vacuum cleaners. Advanced AI does not exist, for it would require electronics, which don't work in the setting due to magical interferences. Some attempts have been made at secure environments, but they're symbolic at most. Cyborgs, however, are a thing, either with living creatures or souls, but they're considered too dangerous and unreliable. Certain machines allow the user to connect to them, but they can disconnect later on easily, and extensive usage is not recommended. Automata heavy weaponry allows firing compressed-vibration blue energy balls that shatter their targets into pieces, as well as rising energy fields to protect from incoming projectiles. Large enough airships, battleships, tanks, and planes carry this technology.
None of these are final, and there could be inconsistencies. Started writing too much for the explanations, and it probably needs a revision and some cleaning to be fair, but I wanted to submit it already so I can start talking and answering questions about it as soon as possible.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Need to give another look to all the older posts as well, but it will take time.
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Last edited by Lon-ami; 06-27-2017 at 05:11 PM..
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  #29  
Old 06-27-2017, 08:05 PM
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Illusion is the most dangerous magic, the art of ultimate chaos and manipulation.
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  #30  
Old 06-27-2017, 08:22 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Orb of Lightning

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Illusion is the most dangerous magic, the art of ultimate chaos and manipulation.
Hey, step off, "Illusion is actually the most evil school of magic" is my secret shtick.
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  #31  
Old 06-27-2017, 08:50 PM
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Hey, step off, "Illusion is actually the most evil school of magic" is my secret shtick.
I don't think magic should be identified as evil or good. Only the user is evil or good.

Illusion is extremely scary and dangerous though.
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  #32  
Old 06-27-2017, 08:54 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Orb of Lightning

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I don't think magic should be identified as evil or good. Only the user is evil or good.
For fuck's... Get the hell out of my files!
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #33  
Old 06-29-2017, 03:29 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Illusion is the most dangerous magic, the art of ultimate chaos and manipulation.
Well, not really. Every elemental force has a "dark side" to it.

The most obvious example is bramble. You can be a nature-loving hippie, growing flowers all around you, with birds building nests in your hair, or you can turn into a hunger-ridden abomination, that spreads diseases all around him, turning all nearby living creatures into putrid rabid zombie-like abominations.

In general, too much magic isn't good. Chaos elemental forces tend to turn you into a wild plain evil animal, while order elemental forces tend to turn you into a cold logic murderer. Neither are inherently evil, they're just a force of nature, bent on surviving or spreading. Corrupted users can stay to themselves, in a marked territory, or they can seek expansion if they don't have a stable source of energy. For example, a corrupted fire user will look for a volcanic zone, and if there isn't any nearby, he will start burning things until he can get enough energy to dig a hole.

Illusion magic is the most feared and mistrusted, for it's invisible, so to speak, and can't be fought directly in most cases. Still, there's simple techniques that let common people check if there's something wrong, even if they can't fathom what. Of course, you need to be suspicious first, which can be hard if you've been deceived by a powerful user or monster.
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~Main: Expansion theorycrafting, Expansions list, The Age of Nightmare, Empire of the Tides (coming soon)~
~Fan ficton: Anachronos Journey: The Timeless Heir~ ~Geography of continents series: Old Kalimdor (original), Pandaria~
~Locations as zones series: Azjol-Nerub, Barrow Deeps, Zul'Aman, Demon Hunter zone, Caverns of Time~
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  #34  
Old 04-29-2018, 04:25 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Time for an update. I'll just repost myself from reddit:

--------------------------------

Using combinatorics to define magic, class, and weapon systems

I don't like most magic systems out there. I've always felt there was something wrong with them, something that didn't make sense. Yeah, it's magic, it's not real, but still.

There's multiple problems, but the biggest offender is fire.

You see, fire is usually classified together with earth, water, and air in most systems. However, fire isn't anything. It's not matter, you can't pick it up. It's a chemical reaction. This is one of the most recurring inconsistencies if you get picky, and what made me start building my own system.

Once I started building it, I found a mathematical approach could be helpful, specially combinatorics. Then I saw similar problems could be found in many other systems, like classes and weapons, and that this approach could work well for them too, so I started applying these ideas to try to create various satisfying and balanced classifications.

--------------------------------

Step 1: The magic system

Let's start with the magic system, the first one I designed. I liked the chemical reaction angle, so I abandoned using "things" as magic, and I decided I would be using "events" happening in connection to said "things" instead. Say goodbye to "water magic", and say hi to "freezing/boiling magic", so to speak.

With this idea in mind, I will design a simple yet complex magic system, where everything is connected and makes sense from a logical point of view.

Elements

The first thing you need is a medium, an element. These do not represent magic, instead, magic is channeled through them. There are four elements to choose from.
  • Earth
  • Water
  • Air
  • Life
Forces

The second thing you need is a move, a force, with which to apply magic. I'll keep it binary, with two forces to choose from.
  • Order - Changes state of matter, effects can be reversed. Water to ice, ice to water.
  • Chaos - Changes composition of matter, effects can not be reversed. Timber to ashes.
Elemental Forces

Applying a force to an element yields an elemental force. Using combinatorics, we get eight elemental forces to choose from.



Names are not final, but they give you a general idea of what each one is about. Each elemental force has a symbolic number, as well as a color.
  • Fire - Combustion, ignition, explosives. 2 - Red.
  • Frost - Temperature, freeze, boil. 5 - Cyan.
  • Illusion - Telepathy, gravity, hallucinations. 8 - Magenta.
  • Storm - Electricity, wind, sand. 6 - Yellow.
  • Shadow - Stealth, spirits, death. 3 - Black.
  • Light - Soul, quickness, purity. 4 - White.
  • Bramble - Plants, insects, diseases. 9 - Green.
  • Automata - Machines, energy, sound. 7 - Blue.
Additionally, the chaos force of each element opposes the order force of the next element.
  • Fire vs Frost
  • Illusion vs Storm
  • Shadow vs Light
  • Bramble vs Automata
This whole magic system can be represented in a wheel, with earth at the top left, the rest following clockwise, each element with its elemental forces inside.

--------------------------------

Step 2: The class system

There's something I've never quite liked about most fantasy settings where magic is prevalent. In one hand, non-magic users can compete against magic users, using superhuman powers that are not magical, but should be. In the other, you have pretty much identical classes, which only differ in the type of magic they're using. For example, what's the difference between a warrior and a paladin? Remove the magical aspect and the end result is the same thing, two guys in full plate armor, so, why not make them the same thing, and then let them specialize in a school of magic?

Following this idea, I will design a simplified class system, and expand it to include weapon types as well later on.

Armor

The first step to define a class is the armor, which is going to determine both mobility and position of the user in the battlefield. Let's keep it simple, with three armor types to choose from.
  • Heavy - Plate, scale.
  • Medium - Leather, chainmail.
  • Light - Cloth, robe.
Style

The second step is the fighting style. You can use magic to either infuse your body and weapons, enhancing your non-magical abilities, or project it outwards, dominating the battlefield through completely unnatural abilities. This gives us two styles to choose from.
  • Soldier - Conventional military.
  • Scholar - Fantasy spellcasters.
Classes

Combinatorics using armor and style yields a total of six classes to choose from.



These six should cover all archetypes pretty well on their own.
  • Guardian - Heavy armor soldier. Warriors, paladins, barbarians, and general fighter archetypes, mostly based on classic European knights. Helmets and shields.
  • Priest - Heavy armor scholar. Blade dancers, dervishes, clerics, and flagellant vibes. They go into melee chanting and wearing long robes reinforced with metal spikes, which cut through their enemies when they spin in place. They favor weapons like flails and scythes.
  • Ranger - Medium armor soldier. Hunters, rogues, gunslingers, swashbucklers, and general modern soldier themes. Emphasis on fencing and marksmanship. Survival, sabotage, and lockpicks.
  • Sorcerer - Medium armor scholar. Wizards, battlemages, alchemists, and other classic archetypes of spellcasters. Powerful long-range spells, which require spellbook study and complex calculations on the fly. Wizard hats and magic gizmos.
  • Archon - Light armor soldier. Monks, lancers, brawlers, and general Asian martial arts themes. They favor cudgels and sabers. Adept at meditation and shapeshifting.
  • Occultist - Light armor scholar. Shamans, witch doctors, ritualists, seers, and other less orthodox users of magic. They don't always wield their weapons directly, levitating and juggling them instead. Excel at ritual dancing and summoning.
Each class would specialize in an elemental force. A guardian specialized in light would work like the archetypic paladin, while a guardian specialized in fire would be closer to a barbarian or a berserker.

--------------------------------

Step 3: The weapon system

If it wasn't obvious by now, I love classifying things, and pretty much no weapon system out there satisfies me either. They're way too generic, or way too specific.

I'm going to define a series of attributes, and then use combinatorics to try to classify fantasy weaponry properly.

Damage

The first attribute is the type of damage the weapon is designed for, which will determine the fighting style used with it. There's three to choose from.
  • Maul - Strong blunt damage.
  • Slash - Surface cutting damage.
  • Pierce - Precision damage.
Wielding

The second attribute is the wielding requirement, of which we can list three.
  • 1H+1H - One-handed, can be dual-wielded.
  • 1H - One-handed, can not be dual-wielded.
  • 2H - Two-handed.
Melee weapons

Combinatorics of three, two times, for a total of twenty weapons to choose from.



Ranged weapons

Combinatorics of two, three times, for a total of eighteen weapons to choose from.



Support weapons

Combinatorics of three, four times, for a total of twelve weapons to choose from.



Note that the above are weapon families, which means weapons not mentioned would be included inside some of those existing families. For example, most curved swords are included inside sabre, while blowpipes would be included inside rifles. The primary goal behind this classification is to simplify skill design around each weapon.

--------------------------------

Well, that's all of it. I'm pretty satisfied with the results so far, and I want to apply this approach to other systems, even if there isn't a lot more to classify out there. It's been a few years in the making, so it's pretty solid, but that doesn't mean it's set in stone. I still go back and change details here and there now and then.

For those interested, even if I introduced this from a standalone point of view, it's part of my own fantasy setting, but I don't have anything solid enough to write a cohesive presentation. Feel free to ask questions about it though, I kept it simple, but the elemental forces get much more complex once they're given context in the setting. These systems play an important role on how the world works, and I think it's better to wait for questions rather than try to explain everything in a single post.

Another thing that is sort of important, the setting isn't specifically a videogame, but it is structured like one regarding mechanics and such. I just find that approach interesting, and think it could work really well to define the laws of the setting clearly for the readers.

Looking forward your opinions!

--------------------------------

There we go.
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Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

~Main: Expansion theorycrafting, Expansions list, The Age of Nightmare, Empire of the Tides (coming soon)~
~Fan ficton: Anachronos Journey: The Timeless Heir~ ~Geography of continents series: Old Kalimdor (original), Pandaria~
~Locations as zones series: Azjol-Nerub, Barrow Deeps, Zul'Aman, Demon Hunter zone, Caverns of Time~

Last edited by Lon-ami; 04-29-2018 at 04:29 AM..
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  #35  
Old 09-04-2018, 03:48 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Another self-repost from reddit:

---

Imperata Elementias Alchemica - Magic system based on combinatorics



Say hello to the visual representation of my magic system.

What you see is a wheel or a compass of sorts, containing eight balls representing the eight "schools of magic". Each ball has a number and a color, and connecting them yields the figure at the center. It reveals a robed entity, with its palms up, holding two irregular triangular pyramids. There's a lot of numerology and sacred geometry involved, but I'm keeping most of that to myself. I might add more details and symbols in the future.

Aside from finally drawing the wheel, I made up a bunch of new names for each thing, based on Latin and derivates. I'm pretty sure they're far from grammatically correct, but that wasn't my intention, so don't worry too much about it. I just needed new words to describe each thing, since most couldn't be properly described using existing words. As long as they give a vibe in the right direction, I'll consider them a success.

Information on what each new word means below.

---

Imperata

Force, energy, movement. Dual in nature, it can manifest as either:
  • Ordinata: Order, Creation, Positive. Effects can be reversed, ice to water, water to ice.
  • Nihilata: Chaos, Destruction, Negative. Effects can't be reversed, tinder to ashes.

Imperata does nothing on its own, and needs a medium to transform into what you would call magic.

---

Elementias

An element, a medium, a channel. There's four of them:
  • Terrataras: Earth, solid, the land.
  • Marequaris: Water, liquid, the sea.
  • Caelastros: Air, gas, the sky.
  • Narvitares: Life, biomass, the nature.

These are inert, and do nothing on their own. There's no "earth power" and such. Instead, we use them to channel imperata.

---

Alchemica

Magic, an elemental force, the combination of imperata and elementias. Using combinatorics, we obtain a total of eight:
  • Flamigera: Fire, ignition, combustion, explosives, muscles, rage.
  • Diluviana: Ice, steam, tides, rain, snow, temperature.
  • Hypnotica: Illusions, telepathy, dreams, telekinesis, hallucinations, mind tricks.
  • Ventavala: Wind, storms, electricity, sand, whirlwinds, kinetic energy.
  • Noctumbra: Night, darkness, mist, spirits, possession, stealth.
  • Luminaria: Day, light, souls, purity, cleansing, protection.
  • Sylvestra: Plants, insects, growth, diseases, regeneration, poison.
  • Mechanica: Machines, robotics, sound, waves, earthquakes, traction power.

Each alchemica has an additional connection apart from their imperiata and elementias of origin. The nihilata of an elementias is directly opposed to the ordinata of the following elementias:
  • Flamigera vs Diluviana
  • Hypnotica vs Ventavala
  • Noctumbra vs Luminaria
  • Sylvestra vs Mechanica

Alchemica can take different forms depending on the caster's techniques and equipment. Armor is the primary defining factor, followed by the weapons. Bare-handed casting is neither common nor efficient. You can read about armor and weapons in my previous thread.

---

So yeah, that's it. Hope you liked it!

Feel free to post questions, suggestions, criticism, etc.

---

This last one was quite more popular than the last.
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Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

~Main: Expansion theorycrafting, Expansions list, The Age of Nightmare, Empire of the Tides (coming soon)~
~Fan ficton: Anachronos Journey: The Timeless Heir~ ~Geography of continents series: Old Kalimdor (original), Pandaria~
~Locations as zones series: Azjol-Nerub, Barrow Deeps, Zul'Aman, Demon Hunter zone, Caverns of Time~

Last edited by Lon-ami; 09-04-2018 at 04:03 PM..
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