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Old 03-23-2017, 07:01 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Default The Helm of Domination

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Originally Posted by WoWPedia
Cunning and manipulative, they dedicated their existence to mastering shadow magic and infiltrating mortal civilizations, turning nation against nation and corrupting the populace into new horrific breeds of demons as their societies crumbled from within.[17]

One conclave of nathrezim dwelled on a world almost completely corrupted by the Old Gods, basking in their shadowy power, until the titan champion Sargeras discovered them. He ruthlessly interrogated the dreadlords, and it was from them that he learned of the Old Gods and the void lords. The dreadlords revealed that the void lords had sent the Old Gods out into the cosmos in order to find and corrupt a titan world-soul, transforming it into an unspeakably dark creature that not even the Pantheon could stand against. Enraged by this discovery, Sargeras killed the nathrezim and shattered the corrupted world upon which they dwelled.[18]

I see the Lich King as a three-way being:

First, the Nathrezim relic, the Helm of Domination. which probably corrupts the wielder the same way Frostmourne does.

The Helm of Domination, made by the Nathrezim, would always bind the user's will to the Helm's persona, which would also always be subservient to a Void Lord or maybe even an Old God. In Arthas and Bolvar's case, Yogg-Saron.

Second, Ner'zhul, the grief-ridden-shaman-turned-power-hungry-crazy-dark-necromancer.

And then Arthas. But apparently the Helm seems to pose a stronger influence on the Lich King, as per Bolvar's behavior.


All in all,
show the Lich King, giving the player an idea that the Old God is influencing Arthas.

But what's more interesting to me, is the Lich King's talk to Tirion, before and after the fight on the Frozen Throne:

Quote:
The Lich King yells: So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?
Highlord Tirion Fordring yells: We will grant you a swift death, Arthas. More than can be said for the thousands you've tortured and slain.
The Lich King yells: You will learn of that first hand. When my work is complete, you will beg for mercy -- and I will deny you. Your anguished cries will be testament to my unbridled power.
Highlord Tirion Fordring yells: So be it. Champions, attack!
The Lich King freezes Highlord Tirion Fordring in a block of ice.
The Lich King yells: I'll keep you alive to witness the end, Fordring. I would not want the Light's greatest champion to miss seeing this wretched world remade in my image.

Quote:
The Lich King yells: No questions remain unanswered. No doubts linger. You are Azeroth's greatest champions! You overcame every challenge I laid before you. My mightiest servants have fallen before your relentless onslaught, your unbridled fury... Is it truly righteousness that drives you? I wonder.
The Lich King yells: You trained them well, Fordring. You delivered the greatest fighting force this world has ever known... right into my hands -- exactly as I intended. You shall be rewarded for your unwitting sacrifice.
The Lich King yells: Watch now as I raise them from the dead to become masters of the Scourge. They will shroud this world in chaos and destruction. Azeroth's fall will come at their hands -- and you will be the first to die.
The Deathlord eventually does become quite a master of the Scourge. If Il'Gynoth's whispers are correct, then the artifact wielders themselves will open the way for N'Zoth. In my mind, this is Saron making The Lich King say through the Nathrezim Helm of the Damned that Azeroth's fall will come at their hands.

Having the Helm of Damnation portraying its own persona and influencing the wielder explains both Bolvar's attitudes in Legion as well as what Arthas said at the Frozen Throne in Wrath.

And, well, Tirion was the first to die, if you guys remember that.

Thoughts?

_____________________________________________
[17] World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1, pg. 21
[18] World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1, pg. 24
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:17 AM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Well a big thing I see right away is the dreadlords serve the Legion, so why would one of their creations bind you to the Void who are their enemies?

We've also never been told the Helm has a personality of its own, just Ner'zhul inhabiting it until Frostmourne ate him. Regarding Bolvar becoming an asshole, we see undead become assholes all the time after being raised.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:23 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
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Well a big thing I see right away is the dreadlords serve the Legion, so why would one of their creations bind you to the Void who are their enemies?
This way of thinking strikes me as way more 'eredar' than 'nathrezim'.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:25 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I just stopped by to tag the thread, but on second glance I must say I'm impressed by the form of your post. Starting off with a polite salutation, quoting and citing your sources, keeping your argument brief and to the point... All in all, A+ material, good job. You have earned +15 Respect.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:42 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
Well a big thing I see right away is the dreadlords serve the Legion, so why would one of their creations bind you to the Void who are their enemies?
It's been speculated that some Nathrezim may in fact be working for the Void... After all, it was dreadlords that first set Sargeras on his path, a path that may well play right into the Void's hands.
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:26 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Discussing what and who the Lich King is a problem since Blizzard changed the direction of the character repeatedly.

WC3 said the Lich King was Ner'zhul's spirit shoved into some armor and that his power was from his enhancements in the ice. The RPG introduced the Helm of Domination. A pre-WoW RPG Book Metzen worked on made it look like the post-WC3 Lich King was Ner'zhul in Arthas' body. Metzen claimed the post-WC3 Lich King was a composite entity who had Ner'zhul's experience and evulness with Arthas' personality. Wrath of the Lich King and the Arthas novel established the post-WC3 Lich King as Corrupt Arthas having overthrown Ner'zhul. WotLK also introduced the There Must Always Be A Lich King twist that ended up minimizing Ner'zhul's importance in the Lich King.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:31 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Main part from an answer to the same thread on reddit:

Quote:
From the moment people started merging together, the Lich King stopped being just a title and an individual soul (Ner'zhul's) in one body : the Lich King is neither Arthas nor Ner'zhul, it's the Lich King. It's a third persona, it's its own individual being. It is an amalgam of all the souls that merged together, with its own will and personality.

- Which explains why it has both Ner'zhul and Arthas' memories, plus Bolvar's now.

- Which explains why everytime someone puts on the Helm, their voice changes dramatically. It's the Lich King's influence/taking control, not just some cheap reverberation effect as I've heard a few times.

- Not done yet! This also explains why Arthas felt freed when he died ("is it finally over?"). During all this time, the Lich King was in control. When Arthas died, his soul was literally released from the LK's grasp, and he went to the Shadowlands.

- Same thing, Arthas was the one containing the Scourge's power, he was the one preventing the Lich King from unleashing the full might of the Scourge, which would've annihilated all mortal kingdoms.

- It also explains why the Lich King supposedly had different goals. "The Lich King" wanted to annihilate everything (as OP quoted), Ner'zhul sought protection from the Legion (by raising the most powerful champions of Azeroth into his service), Arthas just wanted to stop the Scourge and the Lich King, and Bolvar wants to protect Azeroth from the Legion through the Ebon Blade, possibly.

- Finally, it also explains why Bolvar's behavior changed so drastically. Yes, I know, "torture". But that excuse works only to a certain extent. Bolvar has done some pretty awful stuff in Legion, and what's coming in 7.2 is even more fucked up. And there is no excuse for that. Because the Lich King is not Bolvar, it is the Lich King. This is the reason "Bolvar" has such a terrible grudge against the dreadlords. Bolvar (the human) never had any issue with dreadlords, the Lich King did (they were his jailors).
The bolded part is what I find most interesting.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:51 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I just stopped by to tag the thread, but on second glance I must say I'm impressed by the form of your post. Starting off with a polite salutation, quoting and citing your sources, keeping your argument brief and to the point... All in all, A+ material, good job. You have earned +15 Respect.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:24 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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It was officially confirmed that the Lich King in WotLK was just Arthas awhile ago. And that there wasn't anything more to his antics than just trying to corrupt Azeroth's champions.
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Old 03-24-2017, 04:28 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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It was officially confirmed that the Lich King in WotLK was just Arthas awhile ago. And that there wasn't anything more to his antics than just trying to corrupt Azeroth's champions.
Well, he foretold the events happening in Legion, so there's that.

The general consensus is that the current invasion happening in Legion is going to create a big opportunity for N'Zoth to break free.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:13 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I'm still holding up for Ner'zhul. The Prince's Blades storyline hints that his Echo is still there and planning something. I presume that, whoever thinks themselves in charge, Ner'zhul continuously corrupts them through the Helmet, sometimes unknowingly.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:05 AM
Aquamonkey Aquamonkey is offline

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Quote:
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I'm still holding up for Ner'zhul. The Prince's Blades storyline hints that his Echo is still there and planning something. I presume that, whoever thinks themselves in charge, Ner'zhul continuously corrupts them through the Helmet, sometimes unknowingly.
Echos aren't really the spirits though. It's just an echo left behind after a spirit has been consumed by the Void. All they're doing is replaying their past, Ner'zhul specifically replaying how he corrupted Arthas.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:24 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Echos aren't really the spirits though. It's just an echo left behind after a spirit has been consumed by the Void. All they're doing is replaying their past, Ner'zhul specifically replaying how he corrupted Arthas.
Not necessarily. Dimensius the Void Lord has been described as an "echo", even though he was simply depowered because of how hard it is to manifest in reality gradually.

If it is just a replay... What does Ner'zhul's comment about "his plans being foiled now" mean?
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:14 AM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

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I've always been of the opinion that the Lich King was a construct, consisting of Ner'zhuls broken spirit serving as the foundation. Arthas' body provided a vessel, while his personality was fused with the Lich King construct. This fusion took some time to happen, hence the hibernation between TFT and WotLK, and another hibernation period seems to take place once Bolvar puts on the helmet. Once Bolvar is assimilated, the Lich King re-awakens.

Moving on, I have a question. In Chronicle Vol 2, who is in command of Garona when she assassinates Llane? I thought I read somewhere that Cho'gall was the one who maintained the Mind Control, and if he was affiliated with the Old Gods at the time, then at least it would explain the vision from the Yogg'Saron fight.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:22 PM
Aquamonkey Aquamonkey is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Not necessarily. Dimensius the Void Lord has been described as an "echo", even though he was simply depowered because of how hard it is to manifest in reality gradually.
Dimensius is an echo in the metaphorical sense, the full quote is about how Dimensius is a fragment/shadow. He is not a spirit echo like the ones we've seen before ("When a spirit is consumed by the void, an echo of the soul is all that is left behind. Neither in the physical or spiritual sense of the word would these echoes be considered 'alive.' The echo is merely a twisted reverberation of the anguish left behind by the soul as it is consumed."). Ner'zhul and Arthas in the DK quest were originally named as "Spirit of..." in beta, but Blizzard changed them to be echos.

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
If it is just a replay... What does Ner'zhul's comment about "his plans being foiled now" mean?
The echos think they are back in that event. They echos don't know it's a replay of the time Arthas abandoned Light's Vengeance to pick up Frostmourne. When you interrupt them and beat down Arthas' echo, the foiled plan Ner'zhul is referring to is Arthas first becoming a DK.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:58 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
Dimensius is an echo in the metaphorical sense, the full quote is about how Dimensius is a fragment/shadow. He is not a spirit echo like the ones we've seen before ("When a spirit is consumed by the void, an echo of the soul is all that is left behind. Neither in the physical or spiritual sense of the word would these echoes be considered 'alive.' The echo is merely a twisted reverberation of the anguish left behind by the soul as it is consumed."). Ner'zhul and Arthas in the DK quest were originally named as "Spirit of..." in beta, but Blizzard changed them to be echos.


The echos think they are back in that event. They echos don't know it's a replay of the time Arthas abandoned Light's Vengeance to pick up Frostmourne. When you interrupt them and beat down Arthas' echo, the foiled plan Ner'zhul is referring to is Arthas first becoming a DK.
Ah... Thank you.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:00 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Some people were saying that this theory wouldn't make sense, given that the undead seem to be immune to Saronite.

Well, not anymore according to Chronicle vol 3:

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Old 03-15-2018, 05:27 AM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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If you look, you'll see much of these little hints spread throughout Wrath. I think the most telling was when, in the Icecrown Trailer, Terenas says something regarding, "the ancient powers you've enslaved."

This line is striking to me. Obviously, Terenas is referring to Arthas' use of Necromancy - but the wording is all off. All of the lore prior to this indicated that necromancy was relatively new (in a cosmic sense). We knew about the Nathrezim's use of it, yes, but it's Void connections hadn't yet been explained. Right away, it puts you to speculating about where this power comes from. Naturally, I assumed, it was the Old Gods.

Plus, I'm sure you remember the Howling Fjord encounter with Arthas. "I was once a Shaman." Sounds to me like Ner'zhul - or fragments of him, memories - was still active in the Helm. It could've just been Arthas' boasting, I suppose, or a neat shout-out to shaman and orc fans (who just overrun the alliance, you know). I had always wanted to see more of his involvement. True, that Arthas book put him out, but Blizzard has made bigger changes in continuity.
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