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  #26  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:07 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Glorious. I'll be sigging this now.

Oh, if you're curious, I've recanted my earlier positions on the Forsaken. Sylvanas is evil for pursuing various types of genocide, as are those who willingly followed her in doing so. Ditto for Garrosh trying it on Gilneas. And ditto for Daelin trying it on Durotar.
You're taking my post out of context.
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:08 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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I don't think much context can save you when you say "Genocide doesn't make someone evil."
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  #28  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Glorious. I'll be sigging this now.

Oh, if you're curious, I've recanted my earlier positions on the Forsaken. Sylvanas is evil for pursuing various types of genocide, as are those who willingly followed her in doing so. Ditto for Garrosh trying it on Gilneas. And ditto for Daelin trying it on Durotar.
I find it amusing that your taking his post, which is about the primacy of context in all things, out of context.
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  #29  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:16 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
I don't think much context can save you when you say "Genocide doesn't make someone evil."
But it doesn't.

Daelin wasn't evil. He was stuck in the past. Are war vets evil because they snap and kill a bunch of people they view as enemies?
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  #30  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:18 PM
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Why does everyone insist on thinking that "What the Players/Readers know" equals to "What the characters themselves know"?

It's annoying.
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  #31  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:22 PM
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Has anyone here read The Ethos Effect? By...whatsisname...Modesitt, I think. It explores the concept of genocide and provokes actual thought. I would recommend it. A bit gloomy, but a good read nonetheless.
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  #32  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:03 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
But it doesn't.

Daelin wasn't evil. He was stuck in the past. Are war vets evil because they snap and kill a bunch of people they view as enemies?
Evil or mentally ill. I'm going to guess the latter in most cases, though.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:15 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Evil or mentally ill. I'm going to guess the latter in most cases, though.
Hhmm I don't know why I made that last post, I trailed away from my point too much. Daelin wasn't at that point of being insane because he was able to tell the difference between friend and foe.

He never saw the orcs as anything other then mindless savages who only lived to kill. He never knew about their shamanistic culture so seeing the orcs building a nation threatened him. He knew that the camps failed because they escaped and were rebuilding their war machine, (the orcs were still warriors and they had things like towers and demolishers so it would have looked as if they were building up their forces). The orcs were a threat and the only thing he could do was wage war against them from what he knew.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:41 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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He never saw the orcs as anything other then mindless savages who only lived to kill. He never knew about their shamanistic culture so seeing the orcs building a nation threatened him. He knew that the camps failed because they escaped and were rebuilding their war machine, (the orcs were still warriors and they had things like towers and demolishers so it would have looked as if they were building up their forces). The orcs were a threat and the only thing he could do was wage war against them from what he knew.
I might be willing to give him more slack on the point if his own daughter wasn't trying to get him to see things differently.
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:47 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
I might be willing to give him more slack on the point if his own daughter wasn't trying to get him to see things differently.
That's why he is a tragic character. Him not listening to his daughter was because of his hatred of the Old Horde and orcs, it blinded him even to his own daughter.

It doesn't make him evil, just misguided and blinded.
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:48 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
That's why he is a tragic character. Him not listening to his daughter was because of his hatred of the Old Horde and orcs, it blinded him even to his own daughter.

It doesn't make him evil, just misguided and blinded.
Either the war broke his mind entirely into complete paranoia, or he decided to commit genocide based on some old memories while lucid and is thus solidly evil.
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Either the war broke his mind entirely into complete paranoia, or he decided to commit genocide based on some old memories while lucid and is thus solidly evil.
I think your outlook on things is too black and white to be honest.
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:17 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Either the war broke his mind entirely into complete paranoia, or he decided to commit genocide based on some old memories while lucid and is thus solidly evil.
It's is more like the war made him paranoid of the orcs but not enough to make him crazy or loony and he decided to kill off the orcs in order to save humanity.

Remember he didn't know that the orcs were anything other then murderers. Him not believing his daughter isn't a great thing but it is understandable especially because he always saw her as too idealistic.

Also, I don't remember him saying that he was going to kill every last orc, could he have only been attempting to dismantle their nation?
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:18 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
I don't think much context can save you when you say "Genocide doesn't make someone evil."
It feels weird agreeing with you.
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Quaero View Post
I think your outlook on things is too black and white to be honest.
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  #41  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:47 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Quote:
Remember he didn't know that the orcs were anything other then murderers. Him not believing his daughter isn't a great thing but it is understandable especially because he always saw her as too idealistic.
Everything is understandable. Gul'dan was understandable. Arthas was understandable. It doesn't make it commendable or acceptable.
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  #42  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:50 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I don't think Garrosh was really trying to commit genocide on Gilneas.

I think he pointed to a map, went "Conquer this" and called it a day.
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:58 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Everything is understandable. Gul'dan was understandable. Arthas was understandable. It doesn't make it commendable or acceptable.
I'd still say they are different.
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2011, 09:59 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I'd still say they are different.
Different in scale, I suppose.
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  #45  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:10 PM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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The way I see it, Daelin simply didn't have evidence of the Horde's redemption.

All he knew was that the orcs had escaped from their interment camps and were gathering together.

That, added with the precedent of two bloody wars, were reason enough for him to take action.
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  #46  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:21 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaero View Post
The way I see it, Daelin simply didn't have evidence of the Horde's redemption.

All he knew was that the orcs had escaped from their interment camps and were gathering together.

That, added with the precedent of two bloody wars, were reason enough for him to take action.
Yes, preferably more on the "gather more information before making a final decision" and less "MURDERDEATHKILL."
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  #47  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:31 PM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Yes, preferably more on the "gather more information before making a final decision" and less "MURDERDEATHKILL."
I'm guessing since the Horde had already gone "MURDERDEATHKILL!" twice on them already, they didn't want to take any chances.
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  #48  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:32 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaero View Post
I'm guessing since the Horde had already gone "MURDERDEATHKILL!" twice on them already, they didn't want to take any chances.
Under completely different circumstances.
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  #49  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
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Under completely different circumstances.
We know that.

They didn't.
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  #50  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:37 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaero View Post
We know that.

They didn't.
They should have. They were both genocidal and incompetent.
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