Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-10-2018, 10:40 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,652
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default Lack of Moral Ambiguity?

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-10-2018, 11:44 AM
Triceron Triceron is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Triceron's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 577

Default

Not really sure which topic you're specifically talking about since the OP seems to be mixing character complexity with moral ambiguity.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-10-2018, 12:04 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

Elune
Noitora's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,652
BattleTag: Chillman#1339

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
Not really sure which topic you're specifically talking about since the OP seems to be mixing character complexity with moral ambiguity.
Yes.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-10-2018, 09:55 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 21,953
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

I think he's got a point though I would not go so far as to say that Kalec, Farondis, or Jarod ruin my immersion. They are idealistic characters but I think that's okay to have in a fantasy world, even though I do not find any of them interesting.

But I do agree there should be more flawed and ambiguous characters in the setting. Greymane and Saurfang are good examples of flawed characters though I don't know if I'd outright call them ambiguous, they very clearly stand for good but it's more interesting that they weren't perfect in the past and care about wanting to become better than they once were.

I think Wrathion and Moira had potential to be good examples of more ambiguous characters, but I think Blizzard has ultimately just ruined both of them and now it seems like they don't really have any direction in the story.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-11-2018, 07:22 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

Hippogryph Rider
Cacofonix's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 210

Default

Blizzard can't do "moral ambiguity" since:

1. If it's the Alliance it's either retconned up (Van Cleef, those Dwarves smashing around in Frostwolf territory), excused in-universe, or done by cartoon villains like Proudmoore and the Scarlet Crusaders.

2. If it's the Horde, then it's them eating babies with the Alliance getting chewed out for not trusting them for it. Doubly if it's Forsaken where they eat the babies, reanimate the leftovers, and unleash them on some random village while also plaguing it with Thrall and other Horde leaders just sitting there.

3. We get Illidan.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-11-2018, 08:38 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,134
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Blizzard can't do "moral ambiguity"
Wrong. Odyn.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:33 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

Mountain Giant
Patrick_C's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 249

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Wrong. Odyn.
Yup. Odyn and Helya were very ambiguous on their Chronicle write-up. Legion gameplay undermined some of that, but it's still there.

Of the top of my mind, old man Magni was also a bit gray, with the entire Moira/Thaurissian situation.

I do have to admit the examples are not very common, but that comes with the very nature of the game. World of Warcraft, (though maybe not the entire WC franchise) is heroic high fantasy at its heart. Some kind of Manicheanism is to be expected.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-11-2018, 03:51 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Not Sure If Trolling...
Slowpokeking's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 8,985

Default

It's mostly Metzen's fault, during his era it's mostly about "fight the big bad dude" so it's pure black and white. Either "follow the good guys" or "went completely mad".
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:41 AM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

Chimaera
Thornedale's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 292

Default

Best "moral ambiguity" comes from actual clashes of ideals and interestes, but those are very hard to write well, especially when it comes to organizations and cultures, especially for someone whose knowledge and understanding of history is very limited. (This is, by the way, one of the reasons why Warcraft feels so claustrophobically individual.)

It also depends on the overall story. For example, the Empire in the Star Wars movies could've been portrayed much more positively, if flawed, but that would not have fit the story. Expedience is the key.

I think it's better to have no explicit "moral ambiguity" rather than some forced, amateur attempts at introducing it. There is a high chance to end up with "moral ambiguity" for the sake of "moral ambiguity", which is just terribly shallow and detrimental to the story as a whole. A simple but solid narrative will always be superior.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-13-2018, 05:40 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Not Sure If Trolling...
Slowpokeking's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 8,985

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornedale View Post
Best "moral ambiguity" comes from actual clashes of ideals and interestes, but those are very hard to write well, especially when it comes to organizations and cultures, especially for someone whose knowledge and understanding of history is very limited. (This is, by the way, one of the reasons why Warcraft feels so claustrophobically individual.)

It also depends on the overall story. For example, the Empire in the Star Wars movies could've been portrayed much more positively, if flawed, but that would not have fit the story. Expedience is the key.

I think it's better to have no explicit "moral ambiguity" rather than some forced, amateur attempts at introducing it. There is a high chance to end up with "moral ambiguity" for the sake of "moral ambiguity", which is just terribly shallow and detrimental to the story as a whole. A simple but solid narrative will always be superior.
I will say RoC did well.

I believe that many people were attracted to WC lore because of WC3, which has a grey moral standards on many characters. But WOW, as the successor of the story pretty much ruined it by turning it into pure black and white conflict, at the same time ruined many efficient villains, turning them into laughable clowns. The Empire of SW were evil, but many of them are efficient and truly threatening. Which WOW failed to do so.

The inner conflict between the Alliance and the Horde was also suppressed too much other than the Forsaken. The night elves became more like the "little fella" of the humans for a while.

They started to focus on the conflict since Cata, but the best time has passed and many characters were wasted already.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:25 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,171

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornedale View Post
Best "moral ambiguity" comes from actual clashes of ideals and interestes, but those are very hard to write well, especially when it comes to organizations and cultures, especially for someone whose knowledge and understanding of history is very limited. (This is, by the way, one of the reasons why Warcraft feels so claustrophobically individual.)

It also depends on the overall story. For example, the Empire in the Star Wars movies could've been portrayed much more positively, if flawed, but that would not have fit the story. Expedience is the key.

I think it's better to have no explicit "moral ambiguity" rather than some forced, amateur attempts at introducing it. There is a high chance to end up with "moral ambiguity" for the sake of "moral ambiguity", which is just terribly shallow and detrimental to the story as a whole. A simple but solid narrative will always be superior.
Your mention of Empire Strikes Back also reminds me of another point regarding the topic of moral ambiguity. Sometimes moral ambiguity is not about dark vs. light or good vs. evil, but sometimes the most interesting cases of moral ambiguity involve competitively moral choices. For example, the narrative presents Luke with the moral choice of continuing his training with Yoda so he is prepared to face Vader or to attempt to save his friends, but facing Vader ill-prepared. He chooses the latter out of (1) a moral commitment to his friends, and (2) hubris in his capabilities. But Luke's moral quandary makes for compelling moral ambiguity even though it is not about a moral blending of good and evil, as if often the sense of "moral ambiguity" in pop discussions, but, rather, it is driven by competing moralities regarding the higher good.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:29 AM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

Chimaera
Thornedale's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 292

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Your mention of Empire Strikes Back also reminds me of another point regarding the topic of moral ambiguity. Sometimes moral ambiguity is not about dark vs. light or good vs. evil, but sometimes the most interesting cases of moral ambiguity involve competitively moral choices. For example, the narrative presents Luke with the moral choice of continuing his training with Yoda so he is prepared to face Vader or to attempt to save his friends, but facing Vader ill-prepared. He chooses the latter out of (1) a moral commitment to his friends, and (2) hubris in his capabilities. But Luke's moral quandary makes for compelling moral ambiguity even though it is not about a moral blending of good and evil, as if often the sense of "moral ambiguity" in pop discussions, but, rather, it is driven by competing moralities regarding the higher good.
I didn't mention Empire Strikes Back specifically, but the Empire from Star Wars movies in general; not taking the old and new EU into the account.

Anyway, yes, it works, too; but I think this particular case is more about error of judgement (which is universal) rather than actual "moral ambiguity" built on differences in world-views, conflicting interests or blending.

Last edited by Thornedale; 01-14-2018 at 01:00 PM.. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:58 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Not Sure If Trolling...
Slowpokeking's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 8,985

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornedale View Post
I didn't mentioned Empire Strikes Back specifically, but the Empire from Star Wars movies in general; not taking the old and new EU into the account.

Anyway, yes, it works, too; but I think this particular case is more about error of judgement (which is universal) rather than actual "moral ambiguity" built on differences in world-views, conflicting interests or blending.
WOW once had a great chance to make the moral standards much more interesting, if they had added Illdari as the third faction instead of...
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
critical thinking, warcraft

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.