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  #7501  
Old 01-08-2018, 01:06 PM
Morvant Morvant is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
I think the Lich King is strong enough to ward off decomposition of his undead minions indefinitely. Hence undeath being a form of immortality.
I wasn't thinking of decay so much as I was thinking of irremediable damage or casualties, considering the reckless use of troops that tends to be tied to any sort of necromantic army.

Once you are out of ghouls, and of things to turn into ghouls, what do you do ?

There is so much undead recycling you can do.

Unless you go all in on wraiths and possessed constructs ( à la stormcast ).

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Originally Posted by Whitrix View Post
Also the fact that the Legion didn't create the Scourge as anything else than a short term weapon against Azeroth.
Do we have confirmation on that ?

The Burning Legion intentions are one thing, what Ner'zhul intends to do of himself and the Scourge on the long term are another, and I am pretty sure they are quite different.
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  #7502  
Old 01-08-2018, 03:01 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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The only way the Scourge would run out of ghouls is if someone keep destroying them. If that happens, why not kill that person and turn them into a ghoul? Even if they ran out, who cares? Just make skeleton soldiers.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #7503  
Old 01-08-2018, 11:42 PM
Mending Mending is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
The only way the Scourge would run out of ghouls is if someone keep destroying them. If that happens, why not kill that person and turn them into a ghoul? Even if they ran out, who cares? Just make skeleton soldiers.
What happens when there are no more skeletons? 🤔

And only slime is left?~
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  #7504  
Old 01-09-2018, 06:29 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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As krainz said in the discord.

Eathmother = Aman thul.

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As the tauren roamed the newly created fields, they fell prey of dark whispers of the earth that thought them of war and deceit. With her heart heavy with her children's fall from grace, the Earthmother tore out her eyes and set them spinning across the skies.
and elune = Eonar.
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  #7505  
Old 01-09-2018, 06:29 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Wasn't there one day someone asking a blue if Aman'thul ripping Y'shaarj out of Azeroth might have resulted in the creation of the moons?

Because this seems to be clearly talking about Aman'thul and Y'shaarj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow of the Earthmother

As the children of the earth roamed the fields of dawn, they harkened to dark whispers from deep beneath the world. The whispers told the children of the arts of war and deceit. Many of the Shu'halo fell under the shadow's sway and embraced the ways of malice and wickedness. They turned upon their pure brethren and left their innocence to drift upon the plains.
Page 1

The Earthmother, her heart heavy with her children's plight, could not bear to watch them fall from grace. In her grief, she tore out her eyes and set them spinning accross the endless, starry skies. An'she and Mu'sha, seeking to ease the other's sorrow, could only chase each other's faint glow across the sky. The twins still chase one another with every turning of the world.
Page 2

Though sightless, the Earthmother could not long stray from the world of her heart. She kept her ear to the winds and listened to all that transpired across the fields of the dawn. Her great heart was always with her children - and her loving wisdom never fled from them.
Page 3
That would make Aman'thul the Earthmother.
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  #7506  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:24 AM
Mordecay Mordecay is offline

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We ever learned what exactly was the deal between Sylvanas and Helya?
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  #7507  
Old 01-09-2018, 12:41 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
As krainz said in the discord.

Eathmother = Aman thul.
But, Aman-thul is male.



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Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
elune = Eonar.
I agree with this. I wonder who An'she is, though?
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  #7508  
Old 01-09-2018, 02:04 PM
Morvant Morvant is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
If that happens, why not kill that person and turn them into a ghoul?
Well yes, but you'd need to gain from that person's death the same amount of undead warrior material that you lost killing them. Be it directly ( raising their corpse ) or indirectly ( let's say slaughtering and raising whatever defenceless civilians they were protecting ) .

I am not seeing this strategy working so well against the Burning Legion.

Are demon corpses ( that is, for the demons that actually have the politeness to leave a corpse ) even usable in any form by necromancers ?

The only "undead" demon example I have found is the one of Mannoroth in WoD, and that looked far closer to demonic shenanigan than to any form of necromancy.
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  #7509  
Old 01-09-2018, 02:30 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Morvant View Post
Are demon corpses ( that is, for the demons that actually have the politeness to leave a corpse ) even usable in any form by necromancers ?

The only "undead" demon example I have found is the one of Mannoroth in WoD, and that looked far closer to demonic shenanigan than to any form of necromancy.
It's questionable just how attached a demon's soul is to its body; when a demon's soul is trapped in an object or something the body seems to go with it, then emerge again intact if it's freed, so it's uncertain if their physical forms really qualify as living the same way those of ordinary creatures do.

Consequently, while one might feasibly make a demon's corpse stand up and walk around the way arcane magic can with any inanimate object, if the forces of Death, Decay and/or the soul itself aren't involved in reanimation I'm not sure it really qualifies as necromancy.

Mannoroth's form in Hellfire Citadel seemed less a case of being undead, and more like an incremental reversal of his death, as he gradually regains flesh over time and the encounter ends with him fully restored to life, albeit just in time to die again. One might even speculate that his regeneration could have been Gul'dan anchoring Mannoroth's soul back into his corpse and forcing the process that normally happens when a demon grows a new body around its soul in the Nether (or Antorus) to happen there instead, and at an accelerated pace.
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  #7510  
Old 01-10-2018, 12:29 PM
Morvant Morvant is offline

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I guess you could argue for some form of shade or wraith animating a remnant of demonic flesh.

That would be quite ironic actually, considering that standard myth & legend undeads are generally demons animating corpses.
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  #7511  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:47 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Some of you may remember this topic from the troll thread.

Back when B4A was announced, some of us noticed that Atal'dazar's decorations as well as Rastakhan vestments were seemingly inspired by the Inca sun god Inti. Based on this, some of us speculated that the Zandalari may worship a sun loa who'd have a wife (Elune) based on Inti's own (sister-)wife Mama Killa. Not only are both of them moon goddesses greatly revered by coastal communities, but Mama Killa is also said to cry tears of silver! Hmmm, why might that sound familiar?

Unfortunately, the hypothesis still had quite a few holes. Neither a sun nor a moon loa have ever been referenced. We had our Azerothian Mama Killa, but where was our Inti? Some of us postulated that it may have been Hakkar before being corrupted by G'huun and turned into a blood loa, but besides being inspired by Quetzalcoatl, he has no ties to the sun and isn't the only wind serpent loa. (Not to mention that it was actually Quetzalcoatl's brother, Xolotl, who represented the sun.) Finally, what of Elune's ties to the Titans?

Behold the answer to everything!


Based on the the name and appearance, we can conclude that this is a Titan Keeper of Uldir, that he was inspired by Inti and that he in turn inspired the Zandalari culture. This could be the Inti we were looking for! Our sun loa!

"But Nazja", some may say. "If that is indeed Inti, would that not make Elune a Titan creation too? How lame would that be?" At this point, it seems unlikely that Elune won't be a Titan, a Titan creation or one of the beings they chose to ally with. She could be Eonar or Azeroth, but I believe that both of these options are unlikely. In spite of Elune being the night elves' Lady of the Lake (or Lady of the WoE), I don't think that she is Azeroth. Not only because she would not need Magni to speak for her when she already has the ears of so many night elvish priestesses, but also because a dormant Titan would unlikely be behind the creation of the naaru. Keepers? Don't get me wrong, I love those guys, but Elune being one of them would feel like a serious downgrade. An ally of the Titans? Now that's what I'm talking about!

We know for certain the the Titans not only seeded races that would continue their work but also sought alliances with other races. No, I'm not talking about the native species they uplifted, although you could say that those also count. I'm talking about the Constellar, a very mysterious species we know very little about. We know that Sargeras slew at least one of them, that some of them were tasked with keeping watch over the worlds that had been ordered by the Titans, and that one of the worlds Algalon was in charge of watching was Azeroth. However, Azeroth isn't just any world; it's the world hosting the last Titan! Wouldn't it make sense for Azeroth to have a caretaker solely focussed on it, and could this be who Elune is? A Constellar (formerly) working closely with Uldir's main watcher?

The term Kaldorei likely predates the term night elf by far. Night elves were the first and, for a very long time, only elvish race on Azeroth, so there would have been no need for terms like "night elf" instead of merely "elf". Imo, night elf likely is a term introduced into night elvish language by the Alliance, coined after their first encounter with a nocturnal race of elves... Regardless, I've seen people ask why the night elves chose to call themselves Children of the Stars instead of the "more fitting" Children of the Night. Given my belief that night elf was not a term coined by them and that Kaldorei predates it, I do not believe that they ought to have been named Shal'dorei or star elves (whichever you personally prefer), but it could potentially be interesting to know why they chose to call themselves Children of the Stars instead of, for example, Children of the Night or Children of the Moon. Could it have been chosen based on Elune's true form? Could this be the proof we're looking for that Elune is a Constellar? Whatever the answer may be, it likely has been long forgotten by contemporary night elves.

One last thing. If you look at a naaru from a very large distance, would it not look like a star? Hmmm....

Last edited by Nazja; 01-13-2018 at 07:28 AM.. Reason: Typo.
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  #7512  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:27 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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That is too much to read so I'm just going to say that you're wrong.
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  #7513  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:38 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I still think this guy is spot on

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
I just had an idea as to what the Uldir plotline might be about, especially with its Mayincatec Troll architecture. And also how Troll architecture actually bears a close resemblance to the Black Empire's design. Uldir is a Titan lab to study the Old Gods, right?

"Laboratory" actually suggests they were trying to reverse engineer how the Old Gods worked. What if the Titans were actually copying off of designs from the Black Empire, like the fabled Towers of Sacrifice in Ny'alotha? What if they were also researching Old God magic and biology?

What if Trolls are so adept at dark sacrificial magics because they're one of the results of those experiments, which is also why they have such potent regenerative powers? What if there are some experiments which didn't turn out so well, and the bottom of Uldir houses something akin to an artificial Old God created by the Titans?
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  #7514  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I still think this guy is spot on
Hmm, what was it Xal'atath called Elune? An upstart goddess? That could be an artificial and (slightly more) benevolent Old God. But I doubt the Titan's would honour such a being by naming one of the Pillars of Creation after it.

(Of course this does in no way invalidate Krakhed's theory.)
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  #7515  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:46 AM
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I'd like Constellar Elune if constellars were shown to be stronger than what we currently have from them.
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  #7516  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:03 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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I still think Elune is the closest thing we have to a Light Lord. Blizzard has previously gone to great lengths to establish that Elune is the only true deity in the setting, and that the Titans, Loa, Ancient Guardians and what not could be called "gods" only in a figurative way. I don't think making Elune a Keeper, an Old God or even a Titan jives well with that, and the same thing goes for Constellar. They are not unique enough, and also apprently not powerful enough. The impression I get is that the Constellar are somehow subordinate to the Titans, and we kicked the ass of a bunch of them already. If the only true deity of the setting is one of them it's just... Underwhelming.

It could work if she's something like a Mother Constellar or some such, tough.

Of course, they might have completely scrapped the idea of Elune being unique, but I don't want to consider that. It would suck too much (and probably bring the night elves fans with torches and pitchforks to Blizzard's gates)
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  #7517  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:49 AM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
I still think Elune is the closest thing we have to a Light Lord. Blizzard has previously gone to great lengths to establish that Elune is the only true deity in the setting, and that the Titans, Loa, Ancient Guardians and what not could be called "gods" only in a figurative way. I don't think making Elune a Keeper, an Old God or even a Titan jives well with that, and the same thing goes for Constellar. They are not unique enough, and also apprently not powerful enough. The impression I get is that the Constellar are somehow subordinate to the Titans, and we kicked the ass of a bunch of them already. If the only true deity of the setting is one of them it's just... Underwhelming.

It could work if she's something like a Mother Constellar or some such, tough.

Of course, they might have completely scrapped the idea of Elune being unique, but I don't want to consider that. It would suck too much (and probably bring the night elves fans with torches and pitchforks to Blizzard's gates)
But they have not said that. What they've called Elune is one of the few "full" deities, not the only "true" one. And that was also said like ten years ago.
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  #7518  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:59 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I'm not sure whether we should really count those celestial humanoids we fought in Pandaria as Constellars. Perhaps they are merely constructs, like Elegon. Alternatively, they could be lesser life forms related to but not identical to constellars, like the celestial steed or Stardust likely are. Or perhaps there's little difference between Elegon, Stardust and even Algalon, and all three of them are just energy given form. There are only two confirmed Constellars. One of them was killed by Sargeras, but how easily was he beaten? Did he put Sargeras through his paces? And then there's Algalon... A part of me wants to believe that he wanted to be proven wrong and that we haven't seen the full extent of his power yet. However, that's just my opinion and can't be proven.

To cut a long story short, we know very little about this species, so it could very well be just as unique and interesting as you hope Elune will end up being.
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  #7519  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:41 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I've long been defending that I think Elune is like a Mother Constellar.
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  #7520  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:37 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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There's also Harbaron in the Maw of Souls, whose model, naming convention, Xal'atath dialogue and description in the Dungeon Journal imply that he may be a Constellar as well.

I'm caused to wonder if Elune might be something in-between Light and Void. Like a "Goddess of Balance" between the two. After all, if it turns out she did indeed originally create the naaru (and the Tear activating Xe'ra's core at the very least kept that theory viable), it means she didn't just create beings of pure Light. She created beings who can also be Void. Almost like they could have a built-in mechanism by which the naaru can be vessels for whichever of the two forces is in decline in order to raise them up and strive to restore equilibrium.

She's even associated with the moon, which with its phases waxing and waning from bright to shadowed and back evoke a theme of perpetual shifting from Light to Darkness and back again, rather than just being a source of Light. In fact it's not actually a source of either; it reflects light and casts shadow (or has shadow cast upon it) as an intermediary agency of both. Even the association of lunar movement with cyclical shifts between high and low tide (a connection at least partly tying the element of water to Elune's command in a post-Cataclysm Darkshore quest) fits into the concept of the moon goddess possibly playing the role of overseeing a balance between extremes.

One might speculate that a being who strives for that balance from within the physical universe might then create powerful beings whose very nature can shift between the two according to whichever side of the Light/Void dichotomy needs to be elevated and whichever needs to be brought back down. It'd then be only natural that we'd have predominantly Light naaru around because the Light's honestly been on its back foot for eons now, with the free demons bringing Death and Shadow with them from the Twisting Nether whenever they would invade reordered worlds, the Void chucking Old Gods into reality to spread its power left-and-right, and then the Legion stomping around exterminating every spark of life it couldn't warp into a tool for its Crusade. But who's to say in the event that the Light eventually becomes ascendant and drives out the Darkness to the point of coming to dominate reality, that its primacy might not prove equally compromising of the universe's need for balance to endure, and so incite a proliferation of dark naaru to galvanize the Void and try to swing things back toward other way to correct the imbalance?
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  #7521  
Old 01-14-2018, 02:56 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
There's also Harbaron in the Maw of Souls, whose model, naming convention, Xal'atath dialogue and description in the Dungeon Journal imply that he may be a Constellar as well.
I hadn't ever paid him any attention, believing him to just be another vrykul mystic. Had it not been for your post, I likely wouldn't have been aware of this information anytime soon. Thanks.

Anyway, I think that, if Blizzard plays its cards right, 2018 could be a great year not only for troll but also for (night) elf lore. Although elves evolved far from Zul'dazar, this land should hold clues to their heritage and their dark troll ancestors.
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  #7522  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:08 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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But trolls being ANOTHER species of titan creations rather than naturally evolved is lame

It makes the setting and the world feel so narrow, that no one can build anything that didn't come from the Titans basically showing them how.

EDIT:

Plus this would be like what, Mogu 3.0?
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Last edited by Mutterscrawl; 01-14-2018 at 04:13 PM..
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  #7523  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:38 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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One might note that in Ancient Kalimdor, Zuldazar was basically centered right between the Well of Eternity and the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

So theoretically, one might speculate that trolls could have initially evolved in that general in-between region from living around rivers of energized water that flowed south from the Well to pool in the Vale.
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  #7524  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:15 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
One might note that in Ancient Kalimdor, Zuldazar was basically centered right between the Well of Eternity and the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

So theoretically, one might speculate that trolls could have initially evolved in that general in-between region from living around rivers of energized water that flowed south from the Well to pool in the Vale.
Wouldn't the vale still have been mountains?
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  #7525  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:47 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Wouldn't the vale still have been mountains?
How so? It already existed before the Sundering sank many of the southern mountains upending much of the intervening terrain while turning the Thundering Mountain and Zuldazar into islands.

In fact on the maps of post-Ordered, pre-Sundered Kalimdor the Vale's location places it between two mountain ranges. Which would make sense considering "vale" is another word for a valley.

The layout suggests that the wound's energized "blood" could have flowed south through various basins and valleys as rivers and streams before it was stabilized, leading those waters to eventually collect at the location of the Vale due to it being a low point surrounded by elevated terrain.
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