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  #7801  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:49 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
People nowadays feel that self-righteous heroes are actively worse than straight up villains so there's that.

There's also a trend nowadays of subverting "traditional stories" and whatnot by having the fantasy kingdom be full of assholes and the dark wizard and his horde of gremlins actually be misunderstood because it makes people who watch them feel smart and countercultural.

See: basically every fairy tale remake since fucking Shrek.
So in other words you don't live in the now, and keep whining for a time before the current culture and its method of storytelling.

so, much like your lordaeron fap fantasy, your living in a dream world instead of the current period.

Either get with the times or fuck off back to pre disney renaissance
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  #7802  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:51 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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No, you don't write out how awesome it would be to have a legion of knights, dwarves, and worgen march on UC, to see Abominations and such on the battlefield against Alliance mainstays and analyze the political fallout or repercussions.
Uh, pretty sure I've actually written at length about how it would realistically go if such a war happened. It's just never going to happen and I don't care enough anymore to expend that amount of effort every time it's brought up.

"Kill all Forsaken" is far more efficient and gets the same point across. The Forsaken are the ones blocking any significant progression for an entire playable faction and I don't know how many more ways I can spell that out.

I mean like there are tons of smaller issues, such as the fact that the Forsaken live in a consequence-free evil bubble or that their mere presence makes EVERYONE, Horde, Alliance, and neutral look worse simply by proximity, but the bottom line is kill all Forsaken and watch the game improve by several echelons.

Hell just boot them to Northrend even so that they can do undead things with other undead instead of surrounded by people who should hate them yet inexplicably don't.

Also get rid of all neutrals.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #7803  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:51 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
People nowadays feel that self-righteous heroes are actively worse than straight up villains so there's that.

There's also a trend nowadays of subverting "traditional stories" and whatnot by having the fantasy kingdom be full of assholes and the dark wizard and his horde of gremlins actually be misunderstood because it makes people who watch them feel smart and countercultural.

See: basically every fairy tale remake since fucking Shrek.
You'll never get anywhere if you make no attempt to understand the views you dismiss so readily.

EDIT:

My god fojar, your crime isn't just your attitude, it's that you're boring and stagnant too.
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  #7804  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:53 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
You'll never get anywhere if you make no attempt to understand the views you dismiss so readily.
I understand them just fine, and that's one of the reasons why I know making the Alliance into a faction of "people who think they're heroes but actually" is going to make people hate them more than the actual villains in tyool 2014. Because that's just where the genre is right now.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #7805  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:54 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Pale magical elves being good guys isn't counter culture. I am far from what ever could be considered counter culture in real life. I just wanted the story to be the way it was advertised!
  #7806  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:55 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
People nowadays feel that self-righteous heroes are actively worse than straight up villains so there's that.

There's also a trend nowadays of subverting "traditional stories" and whatnot by having the fantasy kingdom be full of assholes and the dark wizard and his horde of gremlins actually be misunderstood because it makes people who watch them feel smart and countercultural.

See: basically every fairy tale remake since fucking Shrek.
I think this can be counter balanced by the fact that humans are generally pretty shitty as a species and if you take half of what we can be like from reality and put it in a fantasy universe then they're inching up the villain board. given how we're so easily divided by skin colour, faith and gender imagine what it would be like with completely different races with completely different cultures.

I'm not saying that Alliance races should be painted as monsters, just that, you know. It's okay to do shitty things from time to time even in the name of the "greater good(tm) and then recognise that both sides can be pretty nasty when push comes to shove. I'm not saying the pure good human races standing up against pure evil is bad either but it's kinda become the stereotypical trope of fantasy.

But, again, if the fallout from the Purge of Dalaran and that goblin still being a slave is anything to go by. The Alliance and Horde fanbase is way too obsessed with morality.
  #7807  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:55 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I understand them just fine, and that's one of the reasons why I know making the Alliance into a faction of "people who think they're heroes but actually" is going to make people hate them more than the actual villains in tyool 2014. Because that's just where the genre is right now.
No, what makes the alliance deplorable is having guys like you associated with them. Pretentious, self opinionated bullshit that makes even other alliance fans cringe.
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  #7808  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:55 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Pale magical elves being good guys isn't counter culture. I am far from what ever could be considered counter culture in real life. I just wanted the story to be the way it was advertised!
It is if they're by and large also dark wizards allied with a gremlin horde. (Which is what the Blood Elves are.)
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #7809  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:57 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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However as we saw, Jaina finally does something dark but justified (purge of Dalaran) and suddenly she's worse than Hitler. Certain Horde characters do the same or worse stuff but they are misunderstood and can be redeemed!
  #7810  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:59 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
However as we saw, Jaina finally does something dark but justified (purge of Dalaran) and suddenly she's worse than Hitler. Certain Horde characters do the same or worse stuff but they are misunderstood and can be redeemed!
not according to guys like fojar and friends.
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  #7811  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:59 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Insipid_Lobster View Post
I'm not saying the pure good human races standing up against pure evil is bad either but it's kinda become the stereotypical trope of fantasy.
See this is sort of what I'm talking about. It's actually pretty rare to find mainstream fantasy nowadays that deals in "good humans against evil monsters" outside of Tolkien and maybe Harry Potter (although that's low fantasy.) Yet the idea that "good humans versus evil monsters" is somehow everywhere is still prevalent, and that annoys me because fantasy has gotten so incredibly cynical as of late that it can get irritating.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #7812  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:00 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
It is if they're by and large also dark wizards allied with a gremlin horde. (Which is what the Blood Elves are.)
They aren't the stereotypical dark wizards. They are the LotR elves and even the Warcraft II elves. The night elves are the ones that had their role counter cultured.
  #7813  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:01 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
They aren't the stereotypical dark wizards. They are the LotR elves and even the Warcraft II elves. The night elves are the ones that had their role counter cultured.
Do you sincerely believe that the Blood Elves are the same as Tolkien High Elves?
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #7814  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:02 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
However as we saw, Jaina finally does something dark but justified (purge of Dalaran) and suddenly she's worse than Hitler. Certain Horde characters do the same or worse stuff but they are misunderstood and can be redeemed!
Yeah, it swings both ways. I agree with you there fully, though it doesn't tick me off half as much as the arbitrary nature of it all. You get some people who are genuinely convinced Garithos_was_right.jpg and yet they insist Lor'themar is every sin under the sun for expelling high elves.

I just tend to steer away from those posters.

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Do you sincerely believe that the Blood Elves are the same as Tolkien High Elves?
Tolkein elves have their petty (and somewhat grey moments) too!
  #7815  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:02 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
The amount of upvotes and downvotes makes me think the SF are more Alliance dominant. (Which is fucking sad to think about since that basically means it's a cesspool because of them.)
For what it's worth, people had already been pointing out the balance of posters on the story forums for years now.
  #7816  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:02 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
See this is sort of what I'm talking about. It's actually pretty rare to find mainstream fantasy nowadays that deals in "good humans against evil monsters" outside of Tolkien and maybe Harry Potter (although that's low fantasy.) Yet the idea that "good humans versus evil monsters" is somehow everywhere is still prevalent, and that annoys me because fantasy has gotten so incredibly cynical as of late that it can get irritating.
you really are the last person who should be complaining about what is irritating.
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  #7817  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:03 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Do you sincerely believe that the Blood Elves are the same as Tolkien High Elves?
Superficially, yes. Isn't that what we are talking about here?
  #7818  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:03 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I think this can be counter balanced by the fact that humans are generally pretty shitty as a species and if you take half of what we can be like from reality and put it in a fantasy universe then they're inching up the villain board. given how we're so easily divided by skin colour, faith and gender imagine what it would be like with completely different races with completely different cultures.

I'm not saying that Alliance races should be painted as monsters, just that, you know. It's okay to do shitty things from time to time even in the name of the "greater good(tm) and then recognise that both sides can be pretty nasty when push comes to shove. I'm not saying the pure good human races standing up against pure evil is bad either but it's kinda become the stereotypical trope of fantasy.

But, again, if the fallout from the Purge of Dalaran and that goblin still being a slave is anything to go by. The Alliance and Horde fanbase is way too obsessed with morality.
I'd like if Blizzard defaulted to other Alliance races to do shitty things. Gets tiring to see these acts committed by a human all the time. Admiral Rogers and Jaina were the most morally grey characters, and I felt they could have done something so much more interesting than just having those two characters. If Humans have to do anything else that's morally grey, I think it should be something more internal rather than something dealing with the faction war.

Not trying to make it sound like a human rant, or anything though.
  #7819  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:04 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Superficially, yes. Isn't that what we are talking about here?
I'd stop right there if I were you, the brick wall your about to run into won't shift.
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  #7820  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:05 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Superficially, yes. Isn't that what we are talking about here?


Quote:
Not trying to make it sound like a human rant, or anything though.
Humans are more narratively troubled than even the Worgen are because the Humans are such a huge part of the world and the story yet act like they aren't.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #7821  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:06 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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The Kinslaying at Alqualonde, The Ruin of Doriath and The Attack on the Mouth of Sirion. The sons of Feanor were a bit mean and weren't really that "good".

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Not trying to make it sound like a human rant, or anything though.
Again, I agree, it's partly why I think the gilneans/worgen have been a wasted opportunity so far.
  #7822  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Kill all Forsaken to save Warcraft.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
  #7823  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Humans are more narratively troubled than even the Worgen are because the Humans are such a huge part of the world and the story yet act like they aren't.
Probably, they at least exist.

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Originally Posted by Insipid_Lobster View Post
Again, I agree, it's partly why I think the gilneans/worgen have been a wasted opportunity so far.
Cataclysm is the undisputed champion of expansions when it comes to horrendously missed opportunities.
  #7824  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:11 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Cataclysm is the undisputed champion of expansions when it comes to horrendously missed opportunities.
They're probably going to milk WoW until the udders of this cash cow shrivel up and simply spit out dust, I am hoping that before then they get some of these things right.
  #7825  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:15 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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They're probably going to milk WoW until the udders of this cash cow shrivel up and simply spit out dust, I am hoping that before then they get some of these things right.
It's already spitting out dust, and that dust is called Warlords of Draenor.
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