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  #10251  
Old 12-08-2014, 03:16 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
I always thought this.

Because you know, scourge and all. I think it's better to blame Blizzard for not giving humans the same treatment they gave the "Blame everyone for everything and use that to justify being a douche" Elves during bc.
Starting zones! I may not have played much of this game, but I've played some starting zones! Our characters are Silver Hand, I say! Silver Hand!
  #10252  
Old 12-08-2014, 03:20 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Starting zones! I may not have played much of this game, but I've played some starting zones! Our characters are Silver Hand, I say! Silver Hand!
Yeah i know and they do nothing about it.

It really makes you wonder what kind of place dwarf and human paladins would be if Blizzard actually gave a fuck.

#gnomepaladins2014
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  #10253  
Old 12-08-2014, 03:22 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Draenei paladins are the Wrynn brothers of Alliance paladins.

#gnomepaladins2014
  #10254  
Old 12-08-2014, 03:28 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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End the Argent Crusade...

Because I'm really not sure what they are Crusading against anymore.

But it's time to put the Silver Hand to rest and from it's ashes will rise....

The Ebon Chalice....

because woe unto any evil that drink, for death will be their only refreshment
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Old 12-08-2014, 05:32 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Because the last time that Medivh tried to ask for help he was basically told "go away old man, nobody has time for your crazy stories" from Lordaeron City, Dalaran and wherever else that he poked up his head and it wasn't until the sht hit the fan that some people named Jaina/Thrall decided that the old man wasn't so crazy after all.

He tried the whole "I'm Medivh and I'm here to help" and was rejected. So why not try a different approach this time?

Plus, it would also depend on how many people knew about Medivh's role in the Third War.
Please. When Medivh tried to warn people he didn't tell them who he was, what the danger was or anything, ?all he pretty much did was fly in and scream 'DOOOOOOOOOOMED! You're all doomed unless you leave NOW!' no explaination of why they had to leave, just a lot of extremely vague warnings and no fucking details. If he had explained what was goign to happen and why they had to leave, people might have reacted better. But no one likes a crazy man jumping in your face and then screaming about the end of the world.

That's my one problem with all prophets and oracles. They never say what they mean. It's always vague and full of misdirection and never comes to the point. Medivh was no different. If the fucker had actually just told them who he was and what was going to happen, giving details he knew, a lot of this shit would have been avoided.
  #10256  
Old 12-08-2014, 05:42 PM
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That's my one problem with all prophets and oracles. They never say what they mean. It's always vague and full of misdirection and never comes to the point. Medivh was no different. If the fucker had actually just told them who he was and what was going to happen, giving details he knew, a lot of this shit would have been avoided.
"Guys, ignore my shitty robes and hobo beard, you gotta listen! Demons, those mytholgical things that no one actually believes in at this time except for all the Council of Trisifal mages I slaughtered in my previous life are actually real!"

"We need to run to this new continent with bull people and horse people and bird people. Oh, and these other crazy purple elves who will try and kill us as soon as look at us. But that's okay because we're going to become besties and totally whoop the demons collective burning arses by blowing up a magical Mac'Guffin tree!"

"...Why is everyone backing away?"
  #10257  
Old 12-08-2014, 10:04 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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A bit late on the response here, but...

The reasoning for Khadgar's "obsession" with Gul'dan is obvious and already right there in-game, in the opening Draenor sequence, without any need for convoluted switched-identity shenanigans to fill in the blanks.

Gul'dan is free because Khadgar tells the player to set him loose, and everything he's done or may yet do since then is only possible because of Khadgar's choice. That's the beginning and end of it. It was likely a shrewd call given the Iron Horde being about to overwhelm them and re-invade Azeroth (and like it or not, apparently the IH is unstoppable), but it was his call nonetheless, and given his reticence even as he gave the order, Khadgar himself knew the probable risks and costs involved down the line.

Consequently, Khadgar comes across as rather fixated on Gul'dan because with the Iron Horde's immediate threat of invasion to Azeroth stifled for a time, he considers it his personal responsibility to neutralize Gul'dan and mitigate whatever further harm the warlock seeks to cause on Draenor, as it was his decision that set Gul'dan loose again in the first place.

Khadgar's not driven by some crazed Gul'damn obsession - he's just a whole lot more conscientious than some characters about damage control after unleashing one potentially heinous evil for the sake of stopping another.

That sort of personal attachment to the mission is really part of his history, too. His part in taking down Medivh was motivated by equal parts stopping the fallen Guardian's threat to Azeroth, and correcting his own failure. After all, he was specifically sent by the Kirin Tor's Violet Eye to monitor Medivh for dangerous behavior, and basically failed until the very end to register that he was monitoring the most dangerous, most corrupted mage imaginable. Similarly, he went to Draenor with the Alliance Expedition both to protect Azeroth from the Horde and to, in effect, set right events that his own destruction of the first Dark Portal had failed to prevent. Then in Outland, he remained vigilant over the aftermath of his deeds while there among the surviving Expedition, even to the point that rather than trying to return home straightaway, sensed the Legion's approach and took steps to contact the Sha'tar and amass allies there in an effort to prevent yet another external threat from using the bridge between worlds to imperil Azeroth.

Khadgar's not of the "devil-may-care, brash and reckless while extremely lucky to offset said brashness and recklessness" school of magery like Rhonin - in a lot of ways he's the idealized Kirin Tor mage, who measures twice and casts once, double-checks his work after, and treats every loose end in the aftermath of his actions as his responsibility to assess and correct. Most mages in WarCraft don't even bother with that - hence the notoriety of spells gone bad leaving behind nasty messes with nobody around to claim credit let alone fix them - but having known Medivh seems to have instilled in Khadgar a powerful drive to own what he does and make sure that he isn't constantly making hard choices without accounting for the damage he causes and trying to correct it afterward. After all, just because a choice has consequences, doesn't mean there's no place for damage control and recouping those losses.

I think maybe it just feels odd with Khadgar to some because a lot of high-profile WoW characters whose choices have messy consequences tend to wave around the costs of their victories like some badge of honor, both to wallow in their own pathos and challenge doubts of thier sincerity. "This cost me so much, so it has to have been the right choice, and I have to just keep pushing down this path, because trying to set things right means asmitting I was wrong." Sound familiar? It's really fairly uncommon to see characters who both understand that sacrifices sometimes need to be made, and take the trouble to not only make sure they really needed to be made in retrospect, but take steps to see if they might be recovered later.

It's called healthy self-doubt, and it's the difference between powerful characters who leave reckless consequences bouncing around in the wake of their costly choices, and those who make every such choice with the promise to at least try to alleviate those costs once the battle's been won.

Long story short, Khadgar seems intensely driven in his pursuit of Gul'dan because while he stands by his decision at the Dark Portal, he can't entirely forgive himself for what was necessary to pull it off until Gul'dan's also been stopped for good. He has a highly personal investment in making sure this potentially massive tradeoff for our survival in Tanaan doesn't become a greater cost than what we've bought with it.
  #10258  
Old 12-08-2014, 11:06 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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A good analysis!

Though, honestly, I wonder just why people think he's obsessed. He hasn't come across like that to me, though perhaps it's only because I've done two of the legendary questline chains so far.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
  #10259  
Old 12-09-2014, 01:04 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
A good analysis!

Though, honestly, I wonder just why people think he's obsessed. He hasn't come across like that to me, though perhaps it's only because I've done two of the legendary questline chains so far.
Well, he and Cordana tend to only figure prominently and consistently into "hunting down Gul'dan" quest chains (the Legendary quests and the level 94 Shadow Council ones in Frostfire and Shadowmoon mainly) - otherwise he usually foists off an NPC to help the player with other stuff instead of getting directly involved himself.

So there's definitely a sense that Khadgar is being set up rather specifically as a nemesis for Gul'dan while everyone else squares off against the Iron Warlords, as after Tanaan and the initial Garrison portal-opening, he only really figures back into the Iron Horde story long enough to participate in the Talador finale and make a small appearance at the lore NPC gathering after Garrosh's defeat.
  #10260  
Old 12-09-2014, 10:15 AM
Arterius Arterius is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Gul'dan is free because Khadgar tells the player to set him loose, and everything he's done or may yet do since then is only possible because of Khadgar's choice. That's the beginning and end of it. It was likely a shrewd call given the Iron Horde being about to overwhelm them and re-invade Azeroth (and like it or not, apparently the IH is unstoppable), but it was his call nonetheless, and given his reticence even as he gave the order, Khadgar himself knew the probable risks and costs involved down the line.
The funny thing is, he's not responsible for releasing Gul'dan. We are. He didn't know that Gul'Dan and his buddies were being used to power the portal. He just ordered us to figure out a way to shut it down. It was our decision to let them go as opposed to, say, lopping off their heads while they're incapacitated (or, to be more accurate, it was Blizzard's decision since a lot of WoD's quest chains would be cut short if we executed the leadership of the Shadow Council in the first 15 minutes).

If we want to talk about weird conspiracy theories in WoW, I'd be more interested in hearing theories on how AU Gul'Dan knows our names. I doubt that Garrosh would have described us in detail to Gul'Dan, especially for characters who did not interact with him much (ie Alliance characters who didn't do Siege of Orgrimmar). Grom, possibly, but not Gul'Dan. So how did he know? Demonic mind-reading powers? Super Fourth Wall powers that allows him to see nameplates? It's actually MU Gul'Dan turned into a demonic Doctor Manhattan from when he was killed at the Tomb of Sargeras?
  #10261  
Old 12-09-2014, 10:24 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The funny thing is, he's not responsible for releasing Gul'dan. We are. He didn't know that Gul'Dan and his buddies were being used to power the portal. He just ordered us to figure out a way to shut it down. It was our decision to let them go as opposed to, say, lopping off their heads while they're incapacitated (or, to be more accurate, it was Blizzard's decision since a lot of WoD's quest chains would be cut short if we executed the leadership of the Shadow Council in the first 15 minutes).
Actually, he does tell us to. The player releases Cho'gall and Teron'gor - who then tell us that Gul'dan's the one being used to maintain the portal, which is basically the "intel" we garner from investigating the spires - but afterward we return to Khadgar with said information and upon hearing it, he tells the player to release Gul'dan in order to shut down the portal.

So while Teron'gor and Cho'gall are on us, Gul'dan's release is squarely Khadgar's choice - he has us find out what's keeping the portal open, it turns out to be Gul'dan, and so he tells us to set Gul'dan free.
  #10262  
Old 12-09-2014, 10:37 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I wonder whether killing them would've worked too.
  #10263  
Old 12-09-2014, 10:40 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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I wonder whether killing them would've worked too.
Probably. It was them personally being used as a conduit. Either way, we could have lopped their heads off and then smash the runestones.
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  #10264  
Old 12-09-2014, 10:50 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Probably. It was them personally being used as a conduit. Either way, we could have lopped their heads off and then smash the runestones.
Given their translucent appearances, it’s possible - perhaps even likely - that they weren’t physically tangible while entrapped by the runestones, making them immune to harm.

Plus the context of the quests is such that we release Teron’gor and Cho’gall in exchange for information – they weren’t the ones keeping the portal propped open (they were probably involved in channeling the sacrificial pits or something.) If we killed them instead of releasing them they wouldn’t have told us about Gul'dan actually keeping the portal open, and despite gameplay letting you spent six hours doing it if you want, technically time’s supposed to be running out and we don't have time to wander around independently looking for the real source of its power because the Iron Horde is overwhelming our position - storywise, the very moment Gul'dan's set free, the vanguard of NPC champions above are already starting to drop like flies, so we're racing the clock.
  #10265  
Old 12-09-2014, 10:54 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Given their translucent appearances, it’s possible - perhaps even likely - that they weren’t physically tangible while entrapped by the runestones, making them immune to harm.

Plus the context of the quests is such that we release Teron’gor and Cho’gall in exchange for information – they weren’t the ones keeping the portal propped open (they were probably involved in channeling the sacrificial pits or something.) If we killed them instead of releasing them they wouldn’t have told us about Gul'dan actually keeping the portal open, and despite gameplay letting you spent six hours doing it if you want, technically time’s supposed to be running out and we don't have time to wander around independently looking for the real source of its power because the Iron Horde is overwhelming our position - storywise, the very moment Gul'dan's set free, the vanguard of NPC champions above are already starting to drop like flies, so we're racing the clock.
I considered the first reason too. If the hero hadn't worked on his own, an execution would still have been possible imho. It's all in the timing.

I didn't consider the second reason, however.
  #10266  
Old 12-09-2014, 01:38 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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because the Iron Horde is overwhelming our position - storywise, the very moment Gul'dan's set free, the vanguard of NPC champions above are already starting to drop like flies, so we're racing the clock.
Which is why I can't figure out for the life of me why the Iron Horde forces didn't follow us after we shut down the portal. Did they get scared? Did they get called off? We know that they still had a force there at the portal after we escaped into the jungle. Did Kilrog tell Grom that he would take care of the invaders and therefore leave your forces there?

They have wiped out most of the NPC champions and then don't bother to follow us. But apparently some of the NPC champions made their way to the boats before they were slaughtered.

Instead we get to walk through Bleeding Hollow territory, where appearantly they don't have much of a clan numberwise, and the threat is no longer what it was.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:31 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Which is why I can't figure out for the life of me why the Iron Horde forces didn't follow us after we shut down the portal. Did they get scared? Did they get called off? We know that they still had a force there at the portal after we escaped into the jungle. Did Kilrog tell Grom that he would take care of the invaders and therefore leave your forces there?

They have wiped out most of the NPC champions and then don't bother to follow us. But apparently some of the NPC champions made their way to the boats before they were slaughtered.

Instead we get to walk through Bleeding Hollow territory, where appearantly they don't have much of a clan numberwise, and the threat is no longer what it was.
I'm pretty sure the Vanguard are fighting a last stand to buy you time and are being killed as we fight through the jungle.
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  #10268  
Old 12-09-2014, 06:45 PM
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I'm pretty sure the Vanguard are fighting a last stand to buy you time and are being killed as we fight through the jungle.
Yep, that's what Khadgar says.
  #10269  
Old 12-09-2014, 06:52 PM
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I'm pretty sure the Vanguard are fighting a last stand to buy you time and are being killed as we fight through the jungle.
The bodies at the end also suggest a likely fighting retreat toward the docks, maybe to keep the Iron Horde's attention diverted and keep its subsequent pursuit from just plowing past the Dark Portal after us. Our following shenanigans catching the attention of Kilrogg, Kargath and Ner'zhul probably had the IH forces from the staging area doubling back after they'd mopped up our vanguard and following us the long way around (i.e. along the quest path through the jungle, arena and caverns), leaving the Dark Portal largely undefended and the way to the docks open when Khadgar teleported us to the Blackrock area.

I suspect the pursuit crashing down around the player at the very end of the escape was the gates of the citadel preparing to swing open and dump a whole new army on us, as the massed forces from the staging point at the base of the Dark Portal probably marched off to the jungles east of the portal in search of the player's group once they'd finished wiping out the Azerothian vanguard's diversionary last stand.

That's my estimation of it, anyway.
  #10270  
Old 12-09-2014, 07:42 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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The bodies at the end also suggest a likely fighting retreat toward the docks, maybe to keep the Iron Horde's attention diverted and keep its subsequent pursuit from just plowing past the Dark Portal after us. Our following shenanigans catching the attention of Kilrogg, Kargath and Ner'zhul probably had the IH forces from the staging area doubling back after they'd mopped up our vanguard and following us the long way around (i.e. along the quest path through the jungle, arena and caverns), leaving the Dark Portal largely undefended and the way to the docks open when Khadgar teleported us to the Blackrock area.

I suspect the pursuit crashing down around the player at the very end of the escape was the gates of the citadel preparing to swing open and dump a whole new army on us, as the massed forces from the staging point at the base of the Dark Portal probably marched off to the jungles east of the portal in search of the player's group once they'd finished wiping out the Azerothian vanguard's diversionary last stand.

That's my estimation of it, anyway.
That's kinda what I'm figuring, the whole divisionary tactic towards the docks, but I find it odd, unless, unless, they didn't see us escape to the jungle and it wasn't until Kilrogg spotted us that the IH thought they had killed all of the A/H forces, and then decided to move their forces through the forest or sit there and wait at the portal, which would explain why suddenly all of these IH forces come pouring out at the portal/dock area.

As for Gul'dan/SHadow Council and Portal... some interesting bits:

Quote:
"Guard Gul'dan and his Shadow Council with your lives! The portal cannot function without our prisoners' fel magic. Fail me and watch all that you hold dear turn to ash.

-Grommash Hellscream."


The Iron Horde appear to be holding prisoners that are crucial to keeping the portal open. Search the nearby spires!
So all three of them were powering the portal. But taking down two of them just weakened it.

Quote:
This portal is fueled by powers neither mechanical nor arcane.

Look to either side of us, <name>. The screaming souls of slain prisoners are being channeled into the heart of the portal itself.

And they are channeling these souls through the body of Gul'dan.

Find a way into the chamber beneath us, and do whatever it takes to get Gul'dan to stop his channeling. Our last hope rests on you, <name>.
Le sigh, I know it's gameplay, but Khadgar did tell us do whatever it takes to stop Gul'dan. Just kill him and be done with it lol. After all, we were only following orders.

But it is interesting that the portal is being fueled by soul magic being funneled through the three SC members and that only worked because of fel magic.

Makes you wonder.... just where did Garrosh get the idea to use souls to power the portal? Did souls power the first Dark Portal as well?

Maybe, just maybe it had something to do with his experiences up in Northrend since the Scourge used soul magic is just about everything.
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  #10271  
Old 12-10-2014, 12:52 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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They sacrificed draenei children to get the first portal running, didn't they?
  #10272  
Old 12-10-2014, 06:41 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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They sacrificed draenei children to get the first portal running, didn't they?
Oh, I forgot about that. Golden's contribution. Yeah, I think a single child was sacrificed.
  #10273  
Old 12-10-2014, 06:57 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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People who use the "Draenei are just as bad as the Orcs because their race are Eredar" infuriate me no end. It's such a stupid argument. The Draenei were explicitly the ones who fled because they didn't like where the demon-train was going, unlike the Orcs who had some of them regret it when they lost, after they'd already started shit.
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  #10274  
Old 12-10-2014, 07:10 AM
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People who use the "Draenei are just as bad as the Orcs because their race are Eredar" infuriate me no end. It's such a stupid argument. The Draenei were explicitly the ones who fled because they didn't like where the demon-train was going, unlike the Orcs who had some of them regret it when they lost, after they'd already started shit.
Durotan: "I don't like what my people have become."

<Portal opens>

"FOR THE HORDE!"

<Charges through screaming like every other demon-juice Orc.>

MFW
  #10275  
Old 12-10-2014, 09:01 PM
Jaelara Jaelara is offline

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Don't forget participating in the original slaughter of the draenei.
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