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Old 03-22-2017, 08:14 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I think the big considerations would be these: 1) does the mission provide an opportunity to move the character narratives of the focal characters along and 2) does the mission introduce new units or map mechanics and/or present a unique challenge for the campaign. Depending on the answers to those, I think there's easily room to put a mission there.

The core thing is that from the perspective of an omniscient, unbiased narrator, Gul'dan and his forces weren't threatened by the human resistance they came across. That doesn't mean there weren't challenges, but instead that they didn't feel like they were in danger.

So if you had a mission where Gul'dan and his forces decide "we need to cross the Darrowmere because it's faster than going around" and get harassed by naval forces from Caer Darrow, then there's an opportunity for a mission. It doesn't have to be a particularly challenging mission, or it could just be a timed challenge of "move X forces before Caer Darrow sends battleships" in order to retain the "didn't feel threatened" mechanism, but the point is that a mission can take place there.

I should point out that it doesn't a) provide a really strong context for the Horde to raid Caer Darrow itself, because Gul'dan is in a rush and the Runestone macguffin was already spent by this point in the narrative and b) provide an opportunity for the Alliance naval battle against Alteraci pirates because nothing about that encounter makes any sense given the present timeline.
Alright, first of all, that one particular comment was only and solely about the possibility of the event from a lore standpoint, not about its merits as a game mission.

But since this you've brought this up, I actually do not imagine the hypothetical Caer Darrow scenario a Horde mission, I imagine it a part of Uther's hypothetical mini-campaign across the Eastweald and Alterac. Gul'dan's retreat is merely where it'd potentially fit.

Now, going by Chronicle and Warcraft II, I'd imagine it like this;

1) Tyr's Hand - This would be the first mission, happening during the invasion of Quel'Thalas. Learning of the destruction wrought in the north (as the Horde advanced upon the elven realm), Uther, at the time fighting with Lothar in the Hinterlands, would ride with a number of knights and paladins north, towards Tyr's Hand, to recruit more men and bring help to the ravaged region. This would be the classical paladin mission, with you arriving at Tyr's Hand, defending it against marauding warbands that were left behind, and then saving innocents across the countryside.

2) Caer Darrow - After doing his holy work in the east, Uther would turn west, towards Caer Darrow. There, he'd find the fortress blockaded by Alteraci pirates and a few Horde vessels, ensuring that Gul'dan's forces cross Darrowmere without any interference (my idea here is that these pirates were there as part of Perenolde’s deal with Doomhammer, to ensure that Gul’dan would reach west as fast as possible. Gul’dan was told of this and simply tricked the Alteraci in thinking he was coming to aid Doomhammer, because why not make this easier?). Now, the mission would be mostly about fighting through the blockade, with an attempt at Uther’s life in the final part of the mission, conducted by the Alteraci spies who had infiltrated the keep.

3) Alterac – Capturing several spies and pirates, Uther would learn that Alterac has betrayed the Alliance. Understanding that he needs to act, yet knowing that Turalyon is marching upon the capital and Lothar still fights the Horde in the Hinterlands, he’d contact King Trollbane. Together, they would march upon Alterac, to close off the passes and take King Perenolde into custody (this could be even two missions technically).

* Moreover, I think this mini-campaign would be great to have Mara Fordragon as the second hero, forming a duo with Uther, and perhaps being the one who saves his life at Caer Darrow.

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Old 03-22-2017, 09:56 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Alright, first of all, that one particular comment was only and solely about the possibility of the event from a lore standpoint, not about its merits as a game mission.
Which is fair, but since I started this thread separate from the core Chronicle Vol 2 thread specifically to discuss the notion of converting the lore back into an RTS game, me mentioning the game design constraints is also critical to what's going on here. ^_^ And mentioning those constraints wasn't intended to be a criticism of any kind, it was really just bringing up those constraints since I hadn't addressed them previously in the thread and they're important considerations for building the structure of the campaigns.

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But since this you've brought this up, I actually do not imagine the hypothetical Caer Darrow scenario a Horde mission, I imagine it a part of Uther's hypothetical mini-campaign across the Eastweald and Alterac. Gul'dan's retreat is merely where it'd potentially fit.
Go on. ^_^

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Now, going by Chronicle and Warcraft II, I'd imagine it like this;

1) Tyr's Hand - This would be the first mission, happening during the invasion of Quel'Thalas. Learning of the destruction wrought in the north (as the Horde advanced upon the elven realm), Uther, at the time fighting with Lothar in the Hinterlands, would ride with a number of knights and paladins north, towards Tyr's Hand, to recruit more men and bring help to the ravaged region. This would be the classical paladin mission, with you arriving at Tyr's Hand, defending it against marauding warbands that were left behind, and then saving innocents across the countryside.

2) Caer Darrow - After doing his holy work in the east, Uther would turn west, towards Caer Darrow. There, he'd find the fortress blockaded by Alteraci pirates and a few Horde vessels, ensuring that Gul'dan's forces cross Darrowmere without any interference (my idea here is that these pirates were there as part of Perenolde’s deal with Doomhammer, to ensure that Gul’dan would reach west as fast as possible. Gul’dan was told of this and simply tricked the Alteraci in thinking he was coming to aid Doomhammer, because why not make this easier?). Now, the mission would be mostly about fighting through the blockade, with an attempt at Uther’s life in the final part of the mission, conducted by the Alteraci spies who had infiltrated the keep.

3) Alterac – Capturing several spies and pirates, Uther would learn that Alterac has betrayed the Alliance. Understanding that he needs to act, yet knowing that Turalyon is marching upon the capital and Lothar still fights the Horde in the Hinterlands, he’d contact King Trollbane. Together, they would march upon Alterac, to close off the passes and take King Perenolde into custody (this could be even two missions technically).
Well, as a starting point for a mini-campaign that predicates itself on using paladin units and centers around Uther as a hero, I like it. Especially since at first blush, it's hard to look at the timeline for the Second War and not feel like the Alliance is constantly a step behind the Horde. Though I do have one comment:
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* Moreover, I think this mini-campaign would be great to have Mara Fordragon as the second hero, forming a duo with Uther, and perhaps being the one who saves his life at Caer Darrow.
I'm still pretty committed to the notion that Mara has to die at Stormwind in order to secure her epitaph as the Patron of the refugees... though upon reviewing the write-up on Wowpedia I might be willing to revisit that. It warrants further discussion, which we have a lot of freedom on since Mara doesn't show up in Chronicle in any notable way.
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  #28  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:42 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

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Too bad Saurfang was named as being Orgrim's rearguard. The headcanons about him doing Act II things in Khaz Modan are gone now.

Speaking of Act II... with Tol Barad no longer in the same geographic theater as Khaz Modan, is Zul'dare the right distance to hypothetically play its role, if it had happened?

Is Isle of Purgation geographically close enough to play the role Zul'dare once did (Horde naval base off the coast), if those hypothetical Act I raids had happened?
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:06 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Too bad Saurfang was named as being Orgrim's rearguard. The headcanons about him doing Act II things in Khaz Modan are gone now.

Speaking of Act II... with Tol Barad no longer in the same geographic theater as Khaz Modan, is Zul'dare the right distance to hypothetically play its role, if it had happened?

Is Isle of Purgation geographically close enough to play the role Zul'dare once did (Horde naval base off the coast), if those hypothetical Act I raids had happened?
The more likely person to be doing anything Khaz Modan without Orgrim's supervision is Kilrogg Deadeye. I really feel like he deserves a narrative of some kind, up to and including an ongoing rivalry between him and Danath Trollbane that ends when they have their duel in Auchindoun during BtDP. They're both unconventional fighters within their factions and the notion of the two of them having a warrior's respect for each other would be kinda neat.

Could you go into more detail about the roles of Zul'Dare you're thinking of?
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  #30  
Old 03-22-2017, 11:40 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

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The more likely person to be doing anything Khaz Modan without Orgrim's supervision is Kilrogg Deadeye. I really feel like he deserves a narrative of some kind, up to and including an ongoing rivalry between him and Danath Trollbane that ends when they have their duel in Auchindoun during BtDP. They're both unconventional fighters within their factions and the notion of the two of them having a warrior's respect for each other would be kinda neat.
A Danath-Kilrogg rivalry sounds nice, for all the reasons you say. Did Chronicles mention Danath before BtDP?

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Could you go into more detail about the roles of Zul'Dare you're thinking of?
In WCII, Tol Barad was sort of a gateway between Khaz Modan and what we call Arathi. An Alliance presence would keep the Horde from going north to Stromgarde, since they could use it as a springboard to strike back.

Arguably moreso in early WoW days when Dun Modr was moved to Khaz Modan. With that geography, using Tol Barad to strike Dun Modr would allow the Alliance to bypass Thandol and harass an advancing Horde from the rear. Alliance mission 5 (Tol Barad - Dun Modr) became a rear foothold, while Alliance mission 6 (Thandol - Dun Algaz) became a threat to encircle the orcs if they didn't pull back from Arathi in time.

That's not a possibility with Tol Barad's new position. But Zul'dare might fit its spot, straight west of Thandol.
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  #31  
Old 03-22-2017, 11:46 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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A Danath-Kilrogg rivalry sounds nice, for all the reasons you say. Did Chronicles mention Danath before BtDP?
It called him a war hero, but nothing specific.

As for Tol Barad/Zul'Dare, I think that point is somewhat moot given Chronicle's account. Danath could have led raids against the Horde held territories in Khaz Modan, but he wouldn't have needed an island as a staging ground to do so. He could have used the Thandol Span directly.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:34 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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It called him a war hero, but nothing specific.

As for Tol Barad/Zul'Dare, I think that point is somewhat moot given Chronicle's account. Danath could have led raids against the Horde held territories in Khaz Modan, but he wouldn't have needed an island as a staging ground to do so. He could have used the Thandol Span directly.
Hmm. Zul'Dare as a staging ground might make sense under a certain set of circumstances.
  1. The Horde's fleet is moored at Southshore, and the Horde have a strong presence there and throughout Hillsbrad, making it difficult to move troops overland from western Lordaeron, Dalaran, or Gilneas to support the southeastern front through the Thandol Span.
  2. The Horde's foundries in the Wetlands are still well-protected, meaning that the site of Menethil Harbor isn't a good insertion point for the same troops if they arrived by sea from Gilneas or Kul Tiras.
  3. Stromgarde straight-up doesn't have the troops to secure that front on its own while the Amani in the Highlands are still aggressive.

So Zul'Dare, as a location both to threaten the Horde's moored fleet at Southshore AND their foundries in the Wetlands, is a knife at the throat of their supply line, in addition to providing an avenue for a large number of freshly-supplied Alliance troops to join Lothar and Turalyon when they eventually chase Doomhammer back through Khaz Modan on the way to Blackrock Spire.
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  #33  
Old 03-23-2017, 08:39 AM
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^ I wasn't exactly talking about levels that had to be on your campaign, sorry. Just getting a feel for the atmosphere of this physical geography.

If the Tol Barad missions were to happen in Bsradin Bay, it'd be Zul'dare. If the Alliance Grim Batol mission were to happen, it'd be Loch Modan. If the Horde Stratholme mission were to happen (specifically on Darrowmere), it'd be Darrowshire.

EDIT: Even if these things never happened in the Chronicles world, it's the idea that they could have happened. Tol Barad as part of a Khaz Modan campaign is impossible and was never a factor for commanders to consider. That sort of thing.
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  #34  
Old 03-23-2017, 09:11 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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^ I wasn't exactly talking about levels that had to be on your campaign, sorry. Just getting a feel for the atmosphere of this physical geography.

If the Tol Barad missions were to happen in Baradin Bay, it'd be Zul'dare. If the Alliance Grim Batol mission were to happen, it'd be Loch Modan. If the Horde Stratholme mission were to happen (specifically on Darrowmere), it'd be Darrowshire.

EDIT: Even if these things never happened in the Chronicles world, it's the idea that they could have happened. Tol Barad as part of a Khaz Modan campaign is impossible and was never a factor for commanders to consider. That sort of thing.
Well. The Stratholme Horde mission could also be Andorhal. It'd be a better fit in my opinion, it's an actual city and it also lies on the shores of Darrowmere, if the western, not the eastern.
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:21 AM
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Well. The Stratholme Horde mission could also be Andorhal. It'd be a better fit in my opinion, it's an actual city and it also lies on the shores of Darrowmere, if the western, not the eastern.
Good to know!

I hope Chronicles 3 will give us a little more on Stratholme's history during this time. Whether it got untouched, somewhat damaged, or razed and rebuilt.

EDIT: Man, Stratholme is right on that path. I just tweeted Burns to ask if we'll ever find out whether it was damaged this war.
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  #36  
Old 04-10-2017, 03:43 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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My inclusionist mine would give Stratholme the Rostov/Frankfurt treatment: call one "Stratholme" and the other "Stratholme-on-Darrow".
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:37 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

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Hero units?

First War
Humans
Archmage
-Medivh, Khadgar

Knight of the Horse (mix of paladin and mountain king)
-Lothar, Gavinrad

Orcs
Blademaster
-Doomhammer, Saurfang, Samuro

Warlock (dreadlord traits)
-Gul'dan, Teron Gorefiend

Second War and Invasion of Draenor
Alliance
Archmage
-Khadgar, Antonidas, Drenden

Paladin
-Turalyon, Uther, Tirion, Saidan, Gavinrad

Mountain King
-Kurdran, Falstad, Magni, Muradin, Brann

Ranger (WC3 campaign hero)
-Alleria, Sylvanas, Vereesa, Lireesa

Commander (Captain unit, mixed abilities w/ Command Aura)
-Danath, Lothar

Horde
Blademaster
-Doomhammer, Saurfang, Eitrigg, Samuro, Grommosh, Kargath

Shadow Hunter
-Zul'jin, Voone

Ogre-Mage Chieftain (tauren chieftain traits)
-Cho'gall, Dentarg, Mogor

Death Knight (same unit as WC3)
-Teron Gorefiend, Gaz Soulripper

Fallen Shaman (mix of dreadlord and far seer)
-Gul'dan, Nekros Skullcrusher, Zuluhed, Ner'zhul
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  #38  
Old 04-25-2017, 03:19 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'd probably combine Warcraft III's Lich and Death Knight to create the Death Knight hero unit. Also, I'd use the neutral heroes more. Some have rather fitting abilities, for example the Pit Lord.
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:58 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I suggest looking into "Coming of the Horde" custom campaign for that kinda stuff on hero abilities.

There are already WC2 DK models out there, and "illidan missile" seems perfect for their ranged attack.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:13 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is online now

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That reminds me...
If you make an Alleria Ranger hero, make sure you increase her attack range. She has to be able to take down an orcish Watch Tower or Juggernaut without a scratch.
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