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Old 06-10-2016, 02:35 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Default Bolvar's Spoiler-Filled Warcraft Movie Thread

You lore geeks need to understand something:

Warcraft lore is a dumpster fire.

In fact, it's not just a dumpster fire. It's a dumpster fire that was put out by a truckload of horse shit, then lit on fire again, re-extinguished, emptied, refilled with more garbage, and burned all over.

It's so full of retcons and shit that was made up on the fly, it's practically unintelligible. What started as green orcs fighting humans has morphed into something completely different and borderline absurd. Origins have been retroactively modified, corrected, edited, or changed altogether to suit a moving narrative that was never all that carefully planned to begin with.

In short, the lore we have now is nothing like the lore we started with.

So, don't expect the movie to be faithful to the lore you know. It can't be. Don't be that guy who pisses and moans about LOTR not having a 45 minute scene for Tom Bombadil. TOM BOMBADIL WAS ALWAYS PRETTY STUPID AND I'M GLAD JACKSON CUT HIM OUT.

It's OK to say this out loud. Tolkien's dead. He won't mind.

With that said...

This movie wasn't half bad. Sadly, it wasn't all good, either. I think it suffered from a lack of exposition, and it will perform poorly as the non-gamer audience will find it almost impossible to follow.

But Warcraft fans should enjoy it immensely.

There's plenty of fan service, lots to recognize, and a story that actually makes more sense than the lore they started with - for the most part.

As is my habit, I'll list what's good, and what's bad.

The Good:


1. Lothar is pretty damned good. You want a badass Alliance hero? You have one. Is he overpowered because he one-shots Blackhand? I don't think so. He was plenty motivated, and it was well-established that he was a brilliantly skilled warrior. I liked Lothar. If there's a sequel, I'm glad he's left alive to be in it.

2. Khadgar was good. So was Medivh. Better than I expected. Both characters made sense. Both were well-developed. Nuanced, even.

3. Llane wasn't bad, either. And, his death made a lot of sense (more on this later...)

4. Durotan was better than I expected.

5. Doomhammer was better than I expected.

6. Garona was better than I expected. And, I thought her "betrayal" of Llane made a LOT more sense in the film than it ever did in-game.

7. Most of the special effects were pretty good, especially the arcane spellwork, and most of the Orc CGI. The gryphons looked pretty good.

8. The story wasn't bad. As I said, needed more exposition, but it moved along briskly. I wasn't bored.

9. Dwarves were solid. Wish there'd been more of them, but I understand the limitations of the narrative. The whole Ironforge scene was pure fanservice, and if you didn't enjoy that, just get the fuck out of my thread.


The Bad:

1. Guldan was pretty terrible. Making him this hulking monster underneath the robes was a bit much. Would have been better to show him "cheating" against Durotan by empowering his champion mid-fight than to have him doing the fighting himself.

2. Removing the blood of Mannoroth entirely from the narrative wouldn't have been my choice. I'm guessing this was a time/budget decision.

3. Female orc CGI was pretty bad.

4. Not as bad as the High Elves. Holy shit you guys... that was embarrassing. Would have been better to just leave them out of the film. Why they settled on that, I have no idea. I would have gone with some LOTR style elf makeup and called it a day... this was a whole lot of suck.

5. Really needed more Draenei exposition, and Draenor exposition. If you're writing an origin story, spend a few minutes explaining the origin. Non-gamers are going to be totally lost trying to figure this out.


I liked the movie. Probably not enough to see it again until it hits Blu-Ray. And I worry that it's not going to do well enough to earn a sequel... which would suck, because a sequel would likely be twice as good.

I'll probably add a few more thoughts later on...
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:14 AM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
You lore geeks need to understand something:

Warcraft lore is a dumpster fire.

In fact, it's not just a dumpster fire. It's a dumpster fire that was put out by a truckload of horse shit, then lit on fire again, re-extinguished, emptied, refilled with more garbage, and burned all over.

It's so full of retcons and shit that was made up on the fly, it's practically unintelligible. What started as green orcs fighting humans has morphed into something completely different and borderline absurd. Origins have been retroactively modified, corrected, edited, or changed altogether to suit a moving narrative that was never all that carefully planned to begin with.

In short, the lore we have now is nothing like the lore we started with.
Still more coherent and less convoluted than super hero comics, especially with Chronicles.

However even though it is coherent it is still bad especially with WoD cheering Grommash and Illidan Champion of the Light.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:30 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I've long since lost track of Warcraft lore, and I've heard mostly meh things about the film, so I'm probably not going to bother with it. The characters have been retconned, resurrected, and reintroduced in alternate timelines too often for me to care about them any longer.

Given the complete mess that WoW lore's become, I wonder if it would have been smarter to tell a smaller scale story set within Warcraft. Story of a peasant turned soldier and a reluctant Frostwolf grunt alternately battling and helping each other over the course of the First War.

I hear it's quite popular in China, however.
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:34 AM
Warlock Warlock is offline

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It's funny, Gul'dan was my favorite character in the movie

Also:
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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
I think it suffered from a lack of exposition, and it will perform poorly as the non-gamer audience will find it almost impossible to follow.

But Warcraft fans should enjoy it immensely.
This was kind of my feeling. They throw a lot out there without much explanation.

I guess I will bullet point my thoughts:

The Good:
  • Most of the main characters. Like I said, I loved Gul'dan. Also loved Durotar and Lothar. Garona started off a little iffy but picked up near the end. Khadgar was good (better than previews made him look). Llane was ok, nothing special but again, not as bad as he looked from trailers.
  • The special effects with a few notable exceptions I will cover in the bad section.
  • The orcs were fantastic - it really felt like they had weight and it was fun to just watch them smash through the humans.

The Bad:
  • As mentioned, some things were glossed over for the worse of new audiences. "Oh, we'll go talk to the Guardian! The Guardian will help us!" Who is the Guardian? Why do they revere him so much? You don't really know. The best you get is that Medivh is kind of a "bad ass mage" but they muddle this with stuff about how Khadgar was training to be the next Guardian (as if this is a thing they do and not something invented for the movie). I really feel like they dropped the ball here.
  • Another one was the intro where you are just thrust into Azeroth immediately. The orcs are constantly talking about how their homeworld was dead/dying. You see Draenor for about two minutes, barely... One or two scenes setting up the orcs as a race in Draenor would have gone a long way. I *think* they were trying to mimic the flow of the original game where they just "show up out of nowhere" but you already can't do that when you bring in all the Gul'dan fel magic plot stuff introduced in WarCraft 3 (and expanded upon most notably in Warlords of Draenor)....
  • Some of the CGI was a little cringe-worthy bad. Notables were the lightning storm from Medivh that looked like they stole assets from the game and slapped them in the movie or something. The lightning just kind of rolled over the ground, not actually impacting it like you would think lightning should. Also, the eye glows were *so* bad. Especially the elves and the mages of Dalaran. It looked pretty weird and cheesy.
  • Most of the lore changes I didn't mind but what the hell was that Alodi shit? I had to look it up - she was the first Guardian? It was just so out of left field and made no sense. The Kirin Tor (which, side nit-pick, EVERY MAGE IS NOT THE KIRIN TOR... ugg) just have this black box of mystery that they've had forever and was like, the source of magic or of the Guardians or something? And there's a random woman inside who honestly doesn't do anything to advance the plot other than outright say "Yeah, Medivh is fucked up, you should do something about that." Why not use Aegwynn, Medivh's mother, direct connection to the character and not a weird, random lore change that wasn't needed... I mean, you can even put her in that dumb box if you *really* want to, but you don't need to. Have her hiding out in Dalaran if you must visit the city because it's cool looking (another nit-pick, DALARAN WASN'T FLYING UGGGG.... I know why they did it, but still... uggggggggggg...). I just don't understand this scene at all - it was purely an excuse to show off Dalaran and it wasn't handled well IMO.
  • The ending was a little weird to me as someone who knows the story. I guess the bits I was expecting are being saved for the beginning of the sequel? Like, no sacking of Stormwind, no Orgrim killing Blackhand and becoming WarChief (I guess he will just do it now.. I suppose I'm ok with that change - side note, another thing they didn't explain well was the difference between a Chieftain and WarChief... it wasn't made super obvious that Blackhand was in charge of everyone), no Gul'dan in chains. I'm assuming they will start off the next one with a big orc attack on Stormwind and the exile to Lordaeron. Teeeeechnically that stuff was all in the War 2 manual so I can forgive that. And it's not a matter of them changing the lore here so much as I think they just haven't gotten to it. Because it fits well with what they were doing in the movie.

Maybe I will post some more thoughts later

Also don't take my bad points as "I hated it" because I still loved the movie. Just a few things I had issues with.
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:42 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Well the more I think about it the more I think it was a mistake not to sack Stormwind in the movie. It would have been even better than the good final fight scene, plus way more epic. It would also give the movie more of a definitive ending.

I was kinda expecting Grom to kick ass during the siege, a sort of reimaging of his awesome cameo in Unbroken. As it was, all Grom had been in the movie was a cameo
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:58 PM
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Well the more I think about it the more I think it was a mistake not to sack Stormwind in the movie. It would have been even better than the good final fight scene, plus way more epic. It would also give the movie more of a definitive ending.

I was kinda expecting Grom to kick ass during the siege, a sort of reimaging of his awesome cameo in Unbroken. As it was, all Grom had been in the movie was a cameo
Said in the other thread but I think it's fine. For one, they need to hedge *some* bets in case they never get to make another one. Two, it works better as a setup for the second movie - you don't need your audience to watch the first one to know what happened and you don't need to "flash back" that way. And three, everyone likes happy endings

Not letting the Dark Portal actually open though is a thread they are gonna need to address in the next movie. They need to bring the rest of the Horde through *somehow*
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Old 06-10-2016, 01:06 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Said in the other thread but I think it's fine. For one, they need to hedge *some* bets in case they never get to make another one. Two, it works better as a setup for the second movie - you don't need your audience to watch the first one to know what happened and you don't need to "flash back" that way. And three, everyone likes happy endings

Not letting the Dark Portal actually open though is a thread they are gonna need to address in the next movie. They need to bring the rest of the Horde through *somehow*
My guess is they'll use that as a lead-in to Beyond the Dark Portal's events.
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Old 06-10-2016, 01:47 PM
Warlock Warlock is offline

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My guess is they'll use that as a lead-in to Beyond the Dark Portal's events.
I thought about that, but do you really think the number of orcs that are there can be as threatening as they are in WarCraft 2? (where they basically capture half of the Eastern Kingdoms and take out a nice chunk of Lordaeron as well here and there). I feel like they need that portal back open for there to be a real "threat" that convinces the other kingdoms and races to team up and form the Alliance...

Edit: Not to mention the overall plot of WarCraft 2 from the Alliance perspective is "We need to close the portal to stop this invasion"... which... I suppose they ironically just used, didn't they? haha

Edit 2: Oh wait, I think I just answered my own question in the other movie topic... They can easily switch up the McGuffin to "We need to retake Stormwind!" That works just fine. At some point in the movie the portal *has* to open again, so end it with Khadgar trying to close it only to discover it *can't* be closed (the rift), leading into Beyond the Dark Portal.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:04 PM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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Wait... they got rid of Mannoroth's blood? There goes them ever doing Warcraft 3.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:12 PM
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Wait... they got rid of Mannoroth's blood? There goes them ever doing Warcraft 3.
I mean, yes and no... They don't really explain the green orcs much other than giving Gul'dan the power to make them (which is a change). The blood of Mannoroth could still factor in if they wanted it to (you could concoct some kind of explanation that Gul'dan has so much of it coursing through him that he can corrupt others himself... I dunno ).
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Old 06-10-2016, 04:08 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Wait... they got rid of Mannoroth's blood? There goes them ever doing Warcraft 3.
At this point the only way they do Warcraft 3 is if Grom kills Gul'dan to free the orcs, instead of Mannoroth.

Otherwise, like Warlock says, they'll have to retcon their retcon...
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Old 06-10-2016, 04:21 PM
Warlock Warlock is offline

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At this point the only way they do Warcraft 3 is if Grom kills Gul'dan to free the orcs, instead of Mannoroth.

Otherwise, like Warlock says, they'll have to retcon their retcon...
Well I mean, there's nothing in the movie to say they didn't use the blood of Mannoroth. Just that Gul'dan can *also* do it. So I mean, it could go either way. I could see them doing something like Gul'dan drank the blood and gained the ability to taint orcs himself.
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Old 06-10-2016, 04:26 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
You lore geeks need to understand something:

Warcraft lore is a dumpster fire.

In fact, it's not just a dumpster fire. It's a dumpster fire that was put out by a truckload of horse shit, then lit on fire again, re-extinguished, emptied, refilled with more garbage, and burned all over.

It's so full of retcons and shit that was made up on the fly, it's practically unintelligible. What started as green orcs fighting humans has morphed into something completely different and borderline absurd. Origins have been retroactively modified, corrected, edited, or changed altogether to suit a moving narrative that was never all that carefully planned to begin with.

In short, the lore we have now is nothing like the lore we started with.

So, don't expect the movie to be faithful to the lore you know. It can't be. Don't be that guy who pisses and moans about LOTR not having a 45 minute scene for Tom Bombadil. TOM BOMBADIL WAS ALWAYS PRETTY STUPID AND I'M GLAD JACKSON CUT HIM OUT.

It's OK to say this out loud. Tolkien's dead. He won't mind.
I'll admit, i went in expecting to pick apart every lore change and be the typical fat comic book nerd cliche.

But I didn't. I honestly didn't feel even a twinge at almost any of the changes I noticed (and truth be told? I barely even bothered noticing the changes). I enjoyed it overall, but I'll have to disagree about Garona, I felt her actress was mediocre at best, and I'm still kinda amazed that I hate the Garona-Lothar romance more than I did the out of left field Garona-Medivh thing in the game.

I mean, uugh.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:26 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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[*] Most of the lore changes I didn't mind but what the hell was that Alodi shit? I had to look it up - she was the first Guardian? It was just so out of left field and made no sense. The Kirin Tor (which, side nit-pick, EVERY MAGE IS NOT THE KIRIN TOR... ugg) just have this black box of mystery that they've had forever and was like, the source of magic or of the Guardians or something? And there's a random woman inside who honestly doesn't do anything to advance the plot other than outright say "Yeah, Medivh is fucked up, you should do something about that." Why not use Aegwynn, Medivh's mother, direct connection to the character and not a weird, random lore change that wasn't needed... I mean, you can even put her in that dumb box if you *really* want to, but you don't need to. Have her hiding out in Dalaran if you must visit the city because it's cool looking (another nit-pick, DALARAN WASN'T FLYING UGGGG.... I know why they did it, but still... uggggggggggg...). I just don't understand this scene at all - it was purely an excuse to show off Dalaran and it wasn't handled well IMO.
On this point... I totally agree.

I was like "Who the fuck is Alodi?"

And it's GLENN FUCKING CLOSE.

You guys... you don't burn a Glenn Close cameo on a character nobody's heard of. MAKE HER AEGWYNN FOR SHIT'S SAKE.

Glenn Close would be an outstanding Aegwynn... think of the prequel potential there...
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:43 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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On this point... I totally agree.

I was like "Who the fuck is Alodi?"

And it's GLENN FUCKING CLOSE.

You guys... you don't burn a Glenn Close cameo on a character nobody's heard of. MAKE HER AEGWYNN FOR SHIT'S SAKE.

Glenn Close would be an outstanding Aegwynn... think of the prequel potential there...
I get the feeling they kinda merged Alodi and Aegwynn together, at least partly. It is a waste, though, yeah.

Also felt kinda dumb to just behold this giant fucking cube and go "its from before, we don't know really what it is" or whatever it was.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:18 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Man, am I the only one who remembers that the WoW comic writer created not just one, but two half-human guardians of tirisfal?
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:23 PM
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Honestly, of all the things, "Crazy black mystery cube with magic chick in it" is the one thing I said "this is just flat out dumb" in the movie. Of all the things to totally invent *just* for the movie, what the fuck? I didn't even realize that was Glenn Close because you see her for like 1 minute and she's got all CGI bullshit around her. And like I said, the scene literally did *nothing* to advance the plot. "What should I do?!" "Oh, you already know the answer." THEN WHY THE HELL DID YOU HAVE TO TALK TO HER?! The whole thing was an OBVIOUS excuse to throw Dalaran in the movie. I mean, there was no other reason. Khadgar knew Medivh was corrupted.... it's not like he *learned* anything by going there. She didn't give him some kind of weapon to stop Medivh. The scene literally served no purpose but to pad the FX budget.

Edit: Ok I need to rant a little more. Here's why Aegwynn would be so much better. First of all, you are already re-writing the lore. So fuck it, just put her in Dalaran. There, you have your floating Dalaran scene you wanted to get in the movie. You don't need to make her a renegade Guardian, it's not honestly that relevant to the lore (at least when you are rewriting things... it's relevant in the context that Medivh wasn't supposed to exist and she was basically stealing the Guardian mantle, but that is "in the weeds" stuff you don't need to bother with in a movie). Just have Khadgar go to Dalaran, bam, Aegwynn is there. Put her on the council, who cares. Have him mention the fel magic in his eyes and she gets all concerned. You can either use this as a chance to bring up her fight with Sargeras, or just hint at it (I do agree with their choice that it wasn't a necessary thing to *actually* reference in the movie as they establish "fel magic corrupts" good enough to justify his actions but don't exclude a "surprise" of Sargeras for sequels). She says something actually useful, like either explaining that Medivh may be possessed by a demon, or giving Khadgar some insight in how to stop him, or something... no black crazy cube... bleh..

She also works better because she's been featured in more things - several of the manuals, several books (The Last Guardian, Cycle of Hatred, a lot of the random "lore" books). There are reasons people may have heard of her and can latch on to "Oh, this is Medivh's mother!" Alodi is mentioned in... one manga story... maybe like 10 pages long? The fact that *I* didn't recognize the name is enough reason why it's a dumb choice. But even given your average movie-goer, someone who doesn't know shit about the WarCraft lore, just saying "This is Medivh's mom" is at least an "Ah, this person has a legit connection to the story."

Ok, done ranting
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:24 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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If Stormwind wasn't sacked, wherr did Llane die? What was the ending?
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:32 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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If Stormwind wasn't sacked, wherr did Llane die? What was the ending?
On the steps of the Dark Portal (Azeroth-side).

Movie ended with the funeral of Llane, with Khadgar giving Lothar Llane's sword before the attendees, many of whom (in the front) are the envoys of the other nations (there are high elves, dwarves, and the others that are seen during the envoy meeting earlier in the movie. edit: oh and a Kirin Tor archmage up on the stage as well), with the general Stormwind folk in the background. Lothar raises the sword with a shout of "For Azeroth" (or close to it, can't quite remember) and then "For the Alliance!" (or again, something close) and the crowd echoes him. Movie ends.

...and then cuts back to baby Go'el in a basket floating down a river, reaching a riverbank, and being found, with Durotan talking over it about how he'll be a great leader someday.
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:53 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Literally in a basket, on a river? That's hilarious.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:01 PM
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Literally in a basket, on a river? That's hilarious.
A basket that (intentionally?) looked like this:
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:03 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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Literally in a basket, on a river? That's hilarious.
Yup. To be fair, its originally hanging in Durotan and Draka's tent, and Draka cuts the strings holding it up when she flees (Gul'dan sends orcs to kill all the Frostwolves since Durotan tried to ally with the humans), and it makes sense there, but still, its very Moses-y.

Still, I'll admit, baby Thrall is actually rather cute. And his birth was actually a neat scene. He's actually born stillborn (with Gul'dan midwifing, no less!), and Gul'dan then drains the life from a deer nearby and puts it into the baby, turning him green in the process. I rather liked it.

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A basket that (intentionally?) looked like this:
Oh wow, I never realized that, that's a nice touch. Could just be chance, but I'd say that was intentional. They put in a lot of details.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:12 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Arakiba View Post
Yup. To be fair, its originally hanging in Durotan and Draka's tent, and Draka cuts the strings holding it up when she flees (Gul'dan sends orcs to kill all the Frostwolves since Durotan tried to ally with the humans), and it makes sense there, but still, its very Moses-y.

Still, I'll admit, baby Thrall is actually rather cute. And his birth was actually a neat scene. He's actually born stillborn (with Gul'dan midwifing, no less!), and Gul'dan then drains the life from a deer nearby and puts it into the baby, turning him green in the process. I rather liked it.



Oh wow, I never realized that, that's a nice touch. Could just be chance, but I'd say that was intentional. They put in a lot of details.
I do enjoy depictions of Gul'dan: hero of the Horde.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:22 PM
Warlock Warlock is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arakiba View Post
Oh wow, I never realized that, that's a nice touch. Could just be chance, but I'd say that was intentional. They put in a lot of details.
Yeah, I noticed it right away. I wasn't sure if it was intentional because it was basically a "basket with spikes on the sides" but it had that nose to it too. Of course it didn't have the canopy, but Thrall was inside it so that made sense.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:24 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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One other small touch I liked, Grom and Kargath both show up a few times, though neither have speaking lines. Well, it may not be them, but one has Grom's topknot and tattooed jaw, the other is pale and has small spikes out of his upper arms like Kargath (couldn't see the titular bladefist, though).
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