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  #10301  
Old 07-16-2017, 04:59 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I don't believe that to be the case, at least not anymore than people use liberal or democrat as an insult synonymous with communist and such.
Are you saying Communist is inherently an insult and judgegment of character? I may not be a fan of the dirty commie ideals, but it's a political belief that isn't inherently a characterflaw or bad. Misguided, at least.

Sexism and Racism and other isms are not "just" political ideals. They are judgements on human beings, the belief that they are inherently inferior to you. That someone of a different skin color or sex is less intelligent, less able, more prone to emotional outbursts or violence...

I think the two are apples and oranges.

Unless you are now agreeing that all commie bastards are evil people/bad people.. In which case that's kind of xenophobic dude.
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  #10302  
Old 07-16-2017, 05:24 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
You never really talked like this at all until you started dredging up SPK's ban evasion and other historical bullshit. And I'm pretty sure K's post was more in reference to You People complaining about recent moderation decisions. He was making fun of your own paranoia.

Not that I'm trying to start shit or anything.
I'm sorry? Is there a way that you'd prefer I talk from now on? Is this method of speech I'm using not okay with you, Anansi? Would you like me to PM you a draft of every post I make so you can ensure it's internally consistent with whatever notion of me you have in your head?

I've made no secret that my interest in SoL is fading. I've been trying to approach things differently but it seems you can't say anything around here without some monkey cropping up to police your tone or accuse you of being apart of some conspiracy.

Grow up, dude.
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  #10303  
Old 07-16-2017, 05:34 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Are you saying Communist is inherently an insult and judgegment of character?
I'm saying it's used as one, and it's been claimed multiple times that Democrats/liberals are racist and just support aid programs / abortion to hurt minorities and such.

My point is, Conservative is not a 'borderline slur' and it certainly hasn't been one for more than a decade.
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  #10304  
Old 07-16-2017, 06:31 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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I love that the forum is dying coz of me. And that discord prevails.

Long live discord (its cheaper too?)
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  #10305  
Old 07-16-2017, 06:58 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
I love that the forum is dying coz of me.
Then go away.

We all needed this unambiguous win.
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Ten.

Years.
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  #10306  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:01 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
What do you mean, "You People"?

Considering "conservative" has been an insult and borderline slur for the last decase or so, to the point where this forums had posters use it synonamously with racist,sexist, etc, (But its ok, because its not sustained!), I'd really like to know what you mean by "You People"...

I mean, especially since you capitalized the Y and P.
You know. You people. Hammer's fan club. The one's who rallied to try and argue that K is somehow worse than he was.

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
I'm sorry? Is there a way that you'd prefer I talk from now on? Is this method of speech I'm using not okay with you, Anansi? Would you like me to PM you a draft of every post I make so you can ensure it's internally consistent with whatever notion of me you have in your head?

I've made no secret that my interest in SoL is fading. I've been trying to approach things differently but it seems you can't say anything around here without some monkey cropping up to police your tone or accuse you of being apart of some conspiracy.

Grow up, dude.
You need to chill. People can't even criticize you now, without you throwing a fit? Is that what you want SoL to be? A safe space?
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  #10307  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:04 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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What did Gurzog do to deserve a ban this time? And can I buy whoever is responsible flowers?
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  #10308  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:07 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
What did Gurzog do to deserve a ban this time? And can I buy whoever is responsible flowers?
It would take a great deal of effort on his part to justify not banning him. He shitposts and nothing else. He just said that he likes that he is killing the forum. I separated him from it for everyone's benefit.

It will probably be reverted soon, but amidst all these fights about how to run the forum, we all needed a win.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonneillon View Post
It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Originally Posted by Darkphoenix View Post
Ten.

Years.
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  #10309  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:13 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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That one seemed unwarranted.
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  #10310  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:25 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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You know. You people. Hammer's fan club. The one's who rallied to try and argue that K is somehow worse than he was.
Setting aside complaints on K, because I've been pretty slapstick and nonexistent in the Halls lately....

Does it really matter if K was worse than Hammer if he was still substantially toxic? Hypothetically speaking, because obviously, there are disagreements on what's seen as toxic.

And, of course, it's got to be said, it doesn't really matter who the posters involved are, it just so happens that in Frosts request and your rebuttal, that K was the one involved.
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  #10311  
Old 07-16-2017, 07:31 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
That one seemed unwarranted.
Sometimes it's hard to be an admin
Giving all your hate to just one ban.
You'll have bad times
And its mostly bad times,
Trolls doin' things that you don't understand
But if you hate him you'll get rid of him,
Because he's hard to understand
And if you hate him oh be proud of it,
'Cause after all it's just a ban
Stand by your ban,
Give him that notice to cling to,
And something empty to come to
When nights are cold and lonely
Stand by your ban,
And show the world you hate him
Keep giving all the hate you can
Stand by your ban
Stand by your ban,
And show the world you hate him
Keep giving all the hate you can
Stand by your ban...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonneillon View Post
It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkphoenix View Post
Ten.

Years.
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  #10312  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:56 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Do we want a forum without any disagreements? With the recent people that were driven away or the people who even in the rules thread feel embolden to ridicule people who generally don't agree with them we are getting closer to that point. It isn't like that is original or a new thing in regards to certain communities. Conformity is more important than diversity or freedom. I guess people can just spin it and makes up excuses however they want without any shame but that is ultimately what will happen. We can be a forum of ass kissers.
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  #10313  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:16 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Who's been driven away again?
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  #10314  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:18 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Who's been driven away again?
Ragnahar, Smoke, and Yaskaleh. I haven't seen Marthen post either.
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  #10315  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:21 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Didn't they leave on their own volition?

Driven away, to me, implies some form of external influence and mandate.
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  #10316  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:24 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Didn't they leave on their own volition?

Driven away, to me, implies some form of external influence and mandate.
They were just unhappy with the direction of the community and felt less comfortable to speak their mind.
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  #10317  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:39 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
They were just unhappy with the direction of the community and felt less comfortable to speak their mind.
They weren't driven away. Flipping tables and whipping people to have them fuck off from the temple is driving someone away. Enforcing rules and telling people to try and be less hostile, use less vitriolic language, not resort to ad-hominems repeatedly, is not driving someone away.

And on the topic of being uncomfortable speaking their minds, that's exactly the reason the mods started enforcing the rules more. Apparently people felt uncomfortable with the rampant vitriol and borderline harassment, some to the point where they apparently left. I generally don't keep track of people, so I can't say for sure who did, but I know I've read about people being sick and tired of the bullshit.
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  #10318  
Old 07-17-2017, 04:34 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
They weren't driven away. Flipping tables and whipping people to have them fuck off from the temple is driving someone away. Enforcing rules and telling people to try and be less hostile, use less vitriolic language, not resort to ad-hominems repeatedly, is not driving someone away.

And on the topic of being uncomfortable speaking their minds, that's exactly the reason the mods started enforcing the rules more. Apparently people felt uncomfortable with the rampant vitriol and borderline harassment, some to the point where they apparently left. I generally don't keep track of people, so I can't say for sure who did, but I know I've read about people being sick and tired of the bullshit.
Frostwolf wasn't being vitriolic or engaging in ad hominem in this instance. Kakwakas and Anansi are. It is their safe space they want to uphold, not Frostwolf's. The vitriol and harassment was one way. Any sort of infringement on speech is always justified in some other way. That is a terrible excuse. Censorship or justified by Putin because he calls it extremism. The Saudis say it is against public order. A campus that riots and threatens speakers where the faculty say they can't guarantee someone's safety say it is hate speech.

I won't get into differences in language but an ad-hominem has a very specific definition. It would be a direct personal attack. When Anansi said Frostwolf was paranoid that was an ad-hominem. Asking about the rational behind a signature is not. The entire reason ad-hominem is its own little category is that it is contrasted against attacking someone's position over their person. People should be allowed to attack positions viciously and critically but not their persons but that isn't being enforced. It doesn't always take any sort of moderator action. Just leading by example because the forum experience isn't purely transactional. Answer Frostwolf's concern without telling him he divulges in paranoia and conspiracies. The distinction really isn't that hard. You don't even have to agree with the point he is making.

Our forum naturally evolved to become less of a liberal safe space. It is indicative of the general feelings in society. It isn't like if people and an admin ridicule posters it will turn back the clock. Tell the people who unequivocally make direct personal attacks to stop and if they don't then start a progressive disciplinary process. The former doesn't seem to be happening. For certain posters it is an expression of freedom of speech while for others it is branded as hostility and ad hominem. I have never been warned or threatened with moderator action before and it isn't like I really have that much in common with Frostwolf. Do people really imagine us enjoying a beer together or something?

Ultimately this is just a World of Warcraft forum. There is no incentive to keep people because there are no subscriptions. The forum can be anything the creators want it to be although our leader has been busy and absent. There are other mediums out there people can communicate on. I liked this one because it was close knit and didn't really require much of an investment. You can't really make long posts on more popular sites on Reddit. The up/down vote system ensures that minority opinions are silenced so you need to use like minded sub reddits. This sort of medium could simply be dying but since the official warcraft forum or WoW guild forums I always really liked this format.

I don't think disagreements are really a bad thing though.

Last edited by PajamaSalad; 07-17-2017 at 04:49 AM..
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  #10319  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:07 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Didn't they leave on their own volition?

Driven away, to me, implies some form of external influence and mandate.
Because the amount of hypocrisy and general anti-conservative attitude was finally the straw that broke the camel's back. The whole political discussion made the atmosphere so overwhelming toxic with the usual suspects ensuring that it became less of a discussion and more of a "if you're not a liberal poster you're not welcome." Hammer's banning whilst K's still allowed to run around running his mouth anywhere and everywhere - granted he was never as extreme as Hammer was in the end but to my knowledge he's never even received a temp ban - made it pretty apparent where the 'loyalties' lie and that ultimately, if you don't hold the same political view as a certain admin/mods you're not wanted. Nobody was forced out directly, no, but it's fair to say those with a right-leaning purview aren't wanted anymore.

Ironic that it wasn't WoW (and disinterest in it) that steadily threatened to kill off/maim the site but politics. Let's face it, even before Discord appeared the site's activity nosedived in the wake of all the political drivel that's been tainting the place. I don't want to say "I told you so" but...
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you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.

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  #10320  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:15 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Because the amount of hypocrisy and general anti-conservative attitude was finally the straw that broke the camel's back. The whole political discussion made the atmosphere so overwhelming toxic with the usual suspects ensuring that it became less of a discussion and more of a "if you're not a liberal poster you're not welcome." Hammer's banning whilst K's still allowed to run around running his mouth anywhere and everywhere - granted he was never as extreme as Hammer was in the end but to my knowledge he's never even received a temp ban - made it pretty apparent where the 'loyalties' lie and that ultimately, if you don't hold the same political view as a certain admin/mods you're not wanted. Nobody was forced out directly, no, but it's fair to say those with a right-leaning purview aren't wanted anymore.

Ironic that it wasn't WoW (and disinterest in it) that steadily threatened to kill off/maim the site but politics. Let's face it, even before Discord appeared the site's activity nosedived in the wake of all the political drivel that's been tainting the place. I don't want to say "I told you so" but...
Truth.
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  #10321  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:37 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
What did Gurzog do to deserve a ban this time? And can I buy whoever is responsible flowers?
I think the technical term is : Gurzoging
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  #10322  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:42 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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I don't see why you guys keep spinning it into something political. It's not. And that's been made clear repeatedly. The issue has been about aggressive behaviour and excessively abusive language. Not left and right bullshit. But maybe I don't see it because I'm left-leaning and not on the receiving end of the supposed hypocricy, I don't know.

But then again, I'm not even sure I regard it as favouritism or bias that Kakwakas hasn't been punished or reprimanded in any way. He can be an ass and passive-aggressive, sure. That's the case for most posters here, though. He and most other posters don't straight up throw around slurs and harass people. He and most other posters don't throw erratic hissyfits and end up calling both staff and members all kinds of childish things.

Also @Ragny; for someone who was supposedly driven away from here you're awfully present and active. I think you're going about this whole "leaving the forum" thing wrong.
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  #10323  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:48 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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All i did was stop coming around. Posting once our twice a week once this place became too lame. Not my fault people use me as a narrative.
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  #10324  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:56 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
I don't see why you guys keep spinning it into something political. It's not. And that's been made clear repeatedly. The issue has been about aggressive behaviour and excessively abusive language. Not left and right bullshit. But maybe I don't see it because I'm left-leaning and not on the receiving end of the supposed hypocricy, I don't know.

But then again, I'm not even sure I regard it as favouritism or bias that Kakwakas hasn't been punished or reprimanded in any way. He can be an ass and passive-aggressive, sure. That's the case for most posters here, though. He and most other posters don't straight up throw around slurs and harass people. He and most other posters don't throw erratic hissyfits and end up calling both staff and members all kinds of childish things.

Also @Ragny; for someone who was supposedly driven away from here you're awfully present and active. I think you're going about this whole "leaving the forum" thing wrong.
Kak was literally calling for armed militias to hunt down and shoot Trump supporters and politicians, but Hammer gets permabanned because he can't keep his mouth shut about disliking Muslims.

I'm dredging this up again just because in this thread especially it's become apparent. I've stook my hand into political threads before but I always try and backout because I've been on enough forums to watch the shit get heated and tried to avoid that (unsuccessfully) on SoL, as well as being banned off enough forums to try and avoid stepping directly on admin toes. But now this place is dying a slow death anyway so it's not like it matters now.

This whole place went to shit as soon as Cactus came back and remembered he can get bias against certain posters. Before then, Left and Right would have their spats, sling their mood and throw their 'champions' at one another but ultimately nobody really gave a shit even when the arguments went in circles. Yeah the atmosphere degraded a bit but politics were politics and it was a free-for-all. Then when Cactus starts swinging his powers around people start criticising him, which the mods/admins start seeing as an attack on their positions as a whole and close ranks. Cue "LALALALALALALALALALALALA" on just about everything that's not trying to defend themselves. So what happens? Not a lot actually, but that's the thing. The mods realise that if eventually if they let people talk in circles they'll get bored and shut up. That's what they start doing. Decisions aren't discussed, overturned or an answer given, they just ignore what's happening because... hey, if we ignore it long enough they'll go away!

Well it continued until the more conservative posters eventually realised things weren't going to go back to the way they were and just fucked off. Loyalty to a site only goes so far and it's not like there was much WoW discussion anyway. So when the place both sides can freely sling a bit of mud on pretty even ground and get on amicably elsewhere just becomes a 'safe space' for the admin's pet political supporters they're going to go elsewhere.
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you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.

Last edited by Drusus; 07-17-2017 at 05:59 AM..
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  #10325  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:57 AM
Gromak Gromak is online now

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Because the amount of hypocrisy and general anti-conservative attitude was finally the straw that broke the camel's back. The whole political discussion made the atmosphere so overwhelming toxic with the usual suspects ensuring that it became less of a discussion and more of a "if you're not a liberal poster you're not welcome." Hammer's banning whilst K's still allowed to run around running his mouth anywhere and everywhere - granted he was never as extreme as Hammer was in the end but to my knowledge he's never even received a temp ban - made it pretty apparent where the 'loyalties' lie and that ultimately, if you don't hold the same political view as a certain admin/mods you're not wanted. Nobody was forced out directly, no, but it's fair to say those with a right-leaning purview aren't wanted anymore.

Ironic that it wasn't WoW (and disinterest in it) that steadily threatened to kill off/maim the site but politics. Let's face it, even before Discord appeared the site's activity nosedived in the wake of all the political drivel that's been tainting the place. I don't want to say "I told you so" but...
It's interesting to see this perspective, because I personally always thought political threads here were much, much more right-leaning than anything (note that I do not strongly identify as either left or right). There were times where I considered posting in the political threads, but due to the nature of my post being pretty much against what was said there I decided against it, since it would've probably resulted in people jumping on me, or ridiculing me or something similar happening, as I've observed it several times happening already - example: everytime Mutterscrawl said pretty much anything, ever.

I do agree however that it seemed that the moderation cracked down harder on the right-leaning or conservative or whatever you called them posters, but I'm unsure if it really was out of political bias or because these certain posters were always very openly aggressive, abusive and hostile in the politics threads. I do also agree that Kakwakas very passive-aggressive tone in the political threads only ever added fuel to the fire.

This "Us vs. Them" mentality has plagued this forum to the point where every action undertaken, every post made is interpreted by "The Other side" in worst possible way and as a snide specifically against them. Politics were, and continue to be, a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
All i did was stop coming around. Posting once our twice a week once this place became too lame. Not my fault people use me as a narrative.
Then we shall make this forum great again.

That Urgot rework and the new Edgelord assassin though, right?
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