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  #26  
Old 09-13-2017, 05:31 AM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
It looks like it varies depending on what the Undead in question is.

You have Death Knights, Liches, and Master Undead like Dar'khan who while a bit warped, maybe, do operate without as much micromanagement as the more bestial Undead.

Ghouls and Abominations are feral beasts who need to be directed.
I believe the upper echelons are composed of willing Scourge, folks who would support the Lich King even if he let them loose. Death Knight Arthas is a pretty good example of that, risking his life even when the Lich King's hold is swaying. No doubt he remains fixed in their mind, acting as a kind of compulsion, but he can sort of give these people free-reign, not worrying that they would ever defect or usurp him. Pretty good insurance policy, given TFT's Scourge story arc!
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  #27  
Old 09-13-2017, 06:39 AM
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I said in another thread that Arthas was loyal even with Ner'zhul's weakening. I claim that he had come to accept, and perhaps, embrace the Scourge. The latter since he finally could handle things his way (and drink his fill of bloodlust) without his father or Uther or Jaina breathing down his neck.

Or in other words, he was corrupt enough to begin with.
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  #28  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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I said in another thread that Arthas was loyal even with Ner'zhul's weakening. I claim that he had come to accept, and perhaps, embrace the Scourge. The latter since he finally could handle things his way (and drink his fill of bloodlust) without his father or Uther or Jaina breathing down his neck.

Or in other words, he was corrupt enough to begin with.
Frostmourne corrupted him.

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It looks like it varies depending on what the Undead in question is.

You have Death Knights, Liches, and Master Undead like Dar'khan who while a bit warped, maybe, do operate without as much micromanagement as the more bestial Undead.

Ghouls and Abominations are feral beasts who need to be directed.

Many of the Death Knights are corrupted human, like the Cult of the Damned members.
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  #29  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:32 AM
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1. Arthas was noted to be torn between light and darkness in RoC's manual. It was also noted Ner'zhuk seeked out dark souls to serve him with Kel'thuzad (a renegade Dalaran Mage who studied Necromancy) being among them.

2. Yeah. But I'm talking about ones like Arthas' sidekicks.
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  #30  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:34 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
1. Arthas was noted to be torn between light and darkness in RoC's manual. It was also noted Ner'zhuk seeked out dark souls to serve him with Kel'thuzad (a renegade Dalaran Mage who studied Necromancy) being among them.
Torn between light and darkness and being loyal to Ner'zhul are two different things. Garithos was also torn between light and darkness.
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  #31  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:55 AM
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I know that. And I'm saying that when push came to shove, Arthas, after sailing back to Northrend had accepted his position in the Scourge (nowhere else to go, suited him better than being a Paladin, didn't have Uther breathing down his neck).

Last edited by Almed; 09-13-2017 at 10:50 AM..
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  #32  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:20 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I know that. And I'm saying that when push came to shove, Arthas, after sailing back to Northrend had accepted his position n the Scourge (nowhere else to go, suited him better than being a Paladin, didn't have Uther breathing down his neck).
I think there is a difference between accepting the Scourge as his legacy and being loyal to Ner'zhul.
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  #33  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
1. Arthas was noted to be torn between light and darkness in RoC's manual. It was also noted Ner'zhuk seeked out dark souls to serve him with Kel'thuzad (a renegade Dalaran Mage who studied Necromancy) being among them.

2. Yeah. But I'm talking about ones like Arthas' sidekicks.
His good part was drained by Forstmourne, which could explain why did he seem to regain his goodness after the sword was destroyed and the crown fell off.

According to some of the Forsaken, the undead do keep their former will, it was just suppressed by the voice of the Lich King. So they broke free when the Lich King got weaken, while I don't think it makes much sense since dead body got no will. Their will should be granted by the necromancer, which is why many of the undead are simply mindless and things like abomination have will.
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  #34  
Old 09-13-2017, 06:57 PM
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I think there is a difference between accepting the Scourge as his legacy and being loyal to Ner'zhul.
He never showed he was resentful of his boss. Before the Arthas book anyway. But that's more or less a rewriting of WC3's Human and Undead campaigns to be more in line with WoW.

Last edited by Almed; 09-13-2017 at 08:05 PM..
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  #35  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:18 PM
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Too many retcons=bad. Too bad Blizzard don't care about it.
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  #36  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:24 AM
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He never showed he was resentful of his boss. Before the Arthas book anyway. But that's more or less a rewriting of WC3's Human and Undead campaigns to be more in line with WoW.
1. How could have he showed it when he was still under Frostmourne's influence? Why do you think he was losing power while others were not? It is because he was directly tied to the Lich King through Frostmourne.

Warcraft III clearly stated that Frostmourne had damn lot of influence on his actions and Arthas' will was no longer his own;

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Tormented by Frostmourne's maddening voice, Arthas lost the last vestiges of his sanity.

Now, driven by the sword's dark will, Arthas plans to return home and claim his just reward...
2. The book certainly changed many things about Athas' character, but I do not think that him not being loyal to Ner'zhul is one of them.
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  #37  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:53 AM
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As I already pointed out in another thread, Arthas' behavior shifts siginificantly in TFT's Undead Campaign compared to RoC's. He shows concern for his subordinates, actually acts like Kel'thuzad is his friend, and is surprisingly respectful to Kael'thas when he catches up with him in Northrend. He's nastier to Kael when they fight, but that's after Ner'zhul has powered Arthas up.

And him being loyal to when he fights to the end never struck me as within doubt. From his dialogue to actions.
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  #38  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:15 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
As I already pointed out in another thread, Arthas' behavior shifts siginificantly in TFT's Undead Campaign compared to RoC's. He shows concern for his subordinates, actually acts like Kel'thuzad is his friend, and is surprisingly respectful to Kael'thas when he catches up with him in Northrend. He's nastier to Kael when they fight, but that's after Ner'zhul has powered Arthas up.

And him being loyal to when he fights to the end never struck me as within doubt. From his dialogue to actions.
And I already adressed these points of yours. So, let's just say I do not agree with your interpretation there.
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  #39  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
As I already pointed out in another thread, Arthas' behavior shifts siginificantly in TFT's Undead Campaign compared to RoC's. He shows concern for his subordinates, actually acts like Kel'thuzad is his friend, and is surprisingly respectful to Kael'thas when he catches up with him in Northrend. He's nastier to Kael when they fight, but that's after Ner'zhul has powered Arthas up.

And him being loyal to when he fights to the end never struck me as within doubt. From his dialogue to actions.
Frostmourne is also part of the Lich King's power. So when the Lich King was weakened, Arthas might regained some senses back, just not enough for him to break free. Ner'zhul must have spent all the effort to keep him there.
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  #40  
Old 09-15-2017, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
I believe the upper echelons are composed of willing Scourge, folks who would support the Lich King even if he let them loose. Death Knight Arthas is a pretty good example of that, risking his life even when the Lich King's hold is swaying. No doubt he remains fixed in their mind, acting as a kind of compulsion, but he can sort of give these people free-reign, not worrying that they would ever defect or usurp him. Pretty good insurance policy, given TFT's Scourge story arc!
"In return for immortality, you agreed to serve him," Kel'Thuzad mused aloud. Remarkable.

"'Agreed' implies choice."
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  #41  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:51 PM
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Funny enough that's a bit of a retcon since TFT suggested he, like other Crypt Lords, sold out to the Scourge. Not one they kept straight either considering Anub's different WotLK death quotes.

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  #42  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:55 PM
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Funny enough that's a bit of a retcon since TFT suggested he, like other, Crypt Lords sold out to the Scourge. Not one they kept straight either considering Anub's different WotLK death quotes.
Yeah they seem to have flipflopped it considerably.

There's a few options I think...

A: He was killed and raised and the Nerubians hold this against him for some reason

B: He joined willingly when alive but the Lich King betrayed and raised him and forced him into servitude

C: He was killed and raised the scourge set it up to look like he betrayed them as a kind of psychological warfare against the Nerubians
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  #43  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:21 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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There's also the possibility that he joined willingly, but only because he considered it futile to keep fighting back and opted to submit and retain some individuality rather than die fighting and be raised as a mindless corpse.

Even if he chose willing servitude it doesn't necessarily mean it had anything to do with earnest loyalty to the Scourge or the Lich King. It could have just been fatalism as it became increasingly evident that the Nerubians were losing the the war.

He could have even defected when the Faceless Ones broke out, figuring that damning himself and his people to undeath would still be better than what the n'raqi would do with them.

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  #44  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:37 PM
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He could have even defected when the Faceless Ones broke out, figuring that damning himself and his people to undeath would still be better than what the n'raqi would do with them.
I dunno, he seemed surprised to see them in TFT
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  #45  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:57 PM
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I dunno, he seemed surprised to see them in TFT
That was before WoW decided it was the Nerubians themselves who accidentally set the Faceless Ones free during the War of the Spider instead of Illidan's attacks with the Eye of Sargeras causing it years after the war was over.

Frankly in light of various WoW-era retcons there's little left intact of that whole plot thread. The cause of the Faceless Ones' escape, the general lack of evidence of Illidan's assault on Northrend during WoW, and making Frostmourne's expulsion from the Frozen Throne responsible for its breach and eventual seepage of power felt like an effort to contain the Scourge-side events of TFT to the Scourge's own lore by isolating it from the night elf campaign.

Just overall the Nerubian angle was managed pretty shoddily; even the newer version with swarms of Faceless Ones from deeper underground being the cause of the Nerubian defeat makes little sense when you go down into the Old Kingdom in-game and just find a bunch of Twilight cultists and a whopping five actual Faceless Ones (might've been three or four; I don't remember offhand if Volasj had two, three or four unnamed Faceless mobs in his room.)

Back then really seemed to almost aggressively not want to address the Forgotten One, the Faceless Ones, the Illidari, the revenant protecting Frostmourne, or anything else that might distract from the truncated tale of Arthas as presented in RotLK. It felt like their entire handling of every question we had left over from TFT was to either ignore such things or deliberately obfuscate them further so we'd just stop asking.

Last edited by ARM3481; 09-15-2017 at 10:01 PM..
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  #46  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
That was before WoW decided it was the Nerubians themselves who accidentally set the Faceless Ones free during the War of the Spider instead of Illidan's attacks with the Eye of Sargeras causing it years after the war was over.

Frankly in light of various WoW-era retcons there's little left intact of that whole plot thread. The cause of the Faceless Ones' escape, the general lack of evidence of Illidan's assault on Northrend during WoW, and making Frostmourne's expulsion from the Frozen Throne responsible for its breach and eventual seepage of power felt like an effort to contain the Scourge-side events of TFT to the Scourge's own lore by isolating it from the night elf campaign.

Just overall the Nerubian angle was managed pretty shoddily; even the newer version with swarms of Faceless Ones from deeper underground being the cause of the Nerubian defeat makes little sense when you go down into the Old Kingdom in-game and just find a bunch of Twilight cultists and a whopping five actual Faceless Ones (might've been three or four; I don't remember offhand if Volasj had two, three or four unnamed Faceless mobs in his room.)

Back then really seemed to almost aggressively not want to address the Forgotten One, the Faceless Ones, the Illidari, the revenant protecting Frostmourne, or anything else that might distract from the truncated tale of Arthas as presented in RotLK. It felt like their entire handling of every question we had left over from TFT was to either ignore such things or deliberately obfuscate them further so we'd just stop asking.
What was that Revenant? Why did he try to save Arthas from Frostmourne? I always wonder.
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  #47  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:20 PM
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That was before WoW decided it was the Nerubians themselves who accidentally set the Faceless Ones free during the War of the Spider instead of Illidan's attacks with the Eye of Sargeras causing it years after the war was over.

Frankly in light of various WoW-era retcons there's little left intact of that whole plot thread. The cause of the Faceless Ones' escape, the general lack of evidence of Illidan's assault on Northrend during WoW, and making Frostmourne's expulsion from the Frozen Throne responsible for its breach and eventual seepage of power felt like an effort to contain the Scourge-side events of TFT to the Scourge's own lore by isolating it from the night elf campaign.

Just overall the Nerubian angle was managed pretty shoddily; even the newer version with swarms of Faceless Ones from deeper underground being the cause of the Nerubian defeat makes little sense when you go down into the Old Kingdom in-game and just find a bunch of Twilight cultists and a whopping five actual Faceless Ones (might've been three or four; I don't remember offhand if Volasj had two, three or four unnamed Faceless mobs in his room.)

Back then really seemed to almost aggressively not want to address the Forgotten One, the Faceless Ones, the Illidari, the revenant protecting Frostmourne, or anything else that might distract from the truncated tale of Arthas as presented in RotLK. It felt like their entire handling of every question we had left over from TFT was to either ignore such things or deliberately obfuscate them further so we'd just stop asking.
At least the Scourge, Nerubians, and Faceless ones were followed up on. We didn't get zip about Garithos, the man who drove the Blood Elves out of the Alliance, in WoW outside of a non-game bio. They didn't even do the no-brainer and make the Scarlet Crusade leftovers of his army. Especially it'd allow them to be around while not clashing with Varimathas saying Garithos' forces were the last pocket of Human resistance in at least Lordaeron.

Last edited by Almed; 09-15-2017 at 11:23 PM..
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  #48  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:35 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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At least the Scourge, Nerubians, and Faceless ones were followed up on. We didn't get zip about Garithos, the man who drove the Blood Elves out of the Alliance, in WoW outside of a non-game bio. They didn't even do the no-brainer and make the Scarlet Crusade leftovers of his army. Especially it'd allow them to be around while not clashing with Varimathas saying Garithos' forces were the last pocket of Human resistance in at least Lordaeron.
I consider that the Scarlet Crusade did form from the remnants of his army, gathered up by Saidan Dathrohan.
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  #49  
Old 09-16-2017, 12:18 PM
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I consider that the Scarlet Crusade did form from the remnants of his army, gathered up by Saidan Dathrohan.
A bunch of retcons occurred upon the Scarlet lore.
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  #50  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:32 PM
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The comics tackling the SC don't mention any ties with Garithos. So I doubt they have one.
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