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Old 04-15-2014, 05:24 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Default How to fix orcs

I think much of us can agree that Mists Of Pandaria did a number on the characterization and identity of the Orcish race. So my question is what steps should be done to fix this?

I was thinking the size of Garrosh's Kor'kron forces in Siege could use some retconning as well. A short story where many of the Kor'kron decide to leave because the organization has strayed too far from its ideals would be good.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:26 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
I think much of us can agree that Mists Of Pandaria did a number on the characterization and identity of the Orcish race. So my question is what steps should be done to fix this?

I was thinking the size of Garrosh's Kor'kron forces in Siege could use some retconning as well. A short story where many of the Kor'kron decide to leave because the organization has strayed too far from its ideals would be good.
Well the Orcs had prior been known to commit genocide on another clan. They also attacked the Draenei in the first place with no demon blood. Could only gather without attacking each other once a year at a religious ceremony.

Its less that MoP changed them, more so that Orcs were always like this and players thought they were more like Thrall. Why would the Kor'kron leave, when it was still staying to the ideals of the Orcish race: Follow the Warchief.

They certainly needed more sympathetic characters. But they have always been bloodthirsty bastards.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:28 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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to much damage has been done to fix it right now. Only hope is for orcs from the alternate timeline to come back to present azeroth and restock the orcs numbers.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:28 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Yeah sorry, Anne, you just lost alot of credibility to me.

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to much damage has been done to fix it right now. Only hope is for orcs from the alternate timeline to come back to present azeroth and restock the orcs numbers.
Or retcon the amount of orcs that supported Garrosh.

Even with that, they should have more numbers then the Darkspear. Population numbers don't matter in WoW.

Its absurd for the entire Kor'kron, once a multi racial organization who served Thrall, and helped other races to instantly become totally evil.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:29 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Yeah sorry, Anne, you just lost alot of credibility to me.
Why is that? I used examples in lore of Orcs being bloodthirsty without demon blood.

All prior to MoP.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:30 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Maybe because you come swinging the alliance perspective bias bat like a fucking rhino.

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Or retcon the amount of orcs that supported Garrosh.

Even with that, they should have more numbers then the Darkspear. Population numbers don't matter in WoW.

Its absurd for the entire Kor'kron, once a multi racial organization who served Thrall, and helped other races to instantly become totally evil.
yeah that was pretty retarded. The kor'kohn n wrath appeared to have a level of decency and honor, while still being fierce and powerful allies. Now the entire kor'kohn image has been snuffed out.

I tell you, kosak taking over as lead lore designer was the worst fucking thing to happen to this game.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:32 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Maybe because you come swinging the alliance perspective bias bat like a fucking rhino.
I've been playing Horde exclusively since vanilla (save for a one month stunt as a human paladin).

I like Orcs as bloodthirsty. Its better than being green humans. Thrall has always been the one to lead them towards peace; no other. Even Drek'thar assaulted the Dwarves first in Alterac like a bloodthirsty barbarian. Which I like. Thats what Orcs are. They are not peace loving klingons.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:34 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Why is that? I used examples in lore of Orcs being bloodthirsty without demon blood.
Recent retcons, and revisionism in a new expansion, no dice.

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Well the Orcs had prior been known to commit genocide on another clan. They also attacked the Draenei in the first place with no demon blood.
After extensive manipulation by Kil'jaeden falsely convincing that the Draenei were planning to attack.

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Could only gather without attacking each other once a year at a religious ceremony.
There's a difference between a reclusive, and harsh race then the totally evil and xenophobic race MOP and WOD are portraying them as.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:35 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
I've been playing Horde exclusively since vanilla (save for a one month stunt as a human paladin).

I like Orcs as bloodthirsty. Its better than being green humans. Thrall has always been the one to lead them towards peace; no other. Even Drek'thar assaulted the Dwarves first in Alterac like a bloodthirsty barbarian. Which I like. Thats what Orcs are. They are not peace loving klingons.
and yet look what happened to the orcs society when they followed your idea of what orcs should be... there all fucking dead now and the orcs as a race have been crushed.

You would be better off hoping if the orcs manage to recover they become like they were under thrall, because thats the only way they will survive.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:37 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Recent retcons, and revisionism in a new expansion, no dice
Commit genocide on another clan: Cata

Attacked Draenei and religious ceremony: Rise of the Horde

Alterac Valley Dwarf attack (and Warsong in general): Vanilla

What are some examples of the Orcs being a peaceful race, outside of Thrall (raised by humans).

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and yet look what happened to the orcs society when they followed your idea of what orcs should be... there all fucking dead now and the orcs as a race have been crushed.

You would be better off hoping if the orcs manage to recover they become like they were under thrall, because thats the only way they will survive.

So you want them to be what they are not. May as well get some humans and paint them green.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:42 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post

So you want them to be what they are not. May as well get some humans and paint them green.
how original a statement.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:46 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Commit genocide on another clan: Cata
Which quest are you talking about? And Cata was when the demonization of the orcs started to get more extreme.

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Attacked Draenei and religious ceremony: Rise of the Horde
You missed my earlier quote.

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Alterac Valley Dwarf attack
Drek'thar's actually pretty chill most of the time, he advised Rexxar not to break the treaty by attacking Kul'tiras(thought to be Theramore). Its a different story when he's pissed off, like when the Stormpike tried to dig up Alterac Valley. And its not as if the Dwarves want peace either, if anything they're just as aggressive, Vaandar says at one point he doesn't desire peace with the orcs.

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(and Warsong in general): Vanilla
Have always been an aggressive clan. And its not as if they're not capable of compassion or honor, as shown in Lord of the Clans, they don't believe in killing or capturing kids and other civillians.

There's also Warsong civilians such as Pooka who is in mourning for her husband, and hasn't told her son about it.

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
What are some examples of the Orcs being a peaceful race, outside of Thrall (raised by humans).
Thrall was raised by an abusive human warlord, you know? Hardly, a loving family.

Orcs aren't the most peaceful race, many seek combat, but they're hardly as bloodthirsty, and vilified as they wore in the last few expansions. They're helpful to their allies, try to maintain their treaties, and will lend a hand for diplomacy.

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So you want them to be what they are not. May as well get some humans and paint them green.
Orcs made snowmen in Warcraft II, does that make them green humans in your book?
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  #13  
Old 04-15-2014, 05:55 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Which quest are you talking about? And Cata was when the demonization of the orcs started to get more extreme.
Its in the flavor text of an archaology item.

Quote:
You missed my earlier quote.
2006 is when the book was published. Are you saying its not canon, or that its new enough to be disregarded at painting a new picture of Orcs than what we are shown prior?

Quote:
Drek'thar's actually pretty chill most of the time, he advised Rexxar not to break the treaty by attacking Kul'tiras(thought to be Theramore). Its a different story when he's pissed off, like when the Stormpike tried to dig up Alterac Valley. And its not as if the Dwarves want peace either, if anything they're just as aggressive, Vaandar says at one point he doesn't desire peace with the orcs.
Irrelavent. Drek'thar admits to opening hostilities with the Dwarves. Thats the point. Shoot first ask later was what he did.

Quote:
Have always been an aggressive clan. And its not as if they're not capable of compassion or honor, as shown in Lord of the Clans, they don't believe in killing or capturing kids and other civillians.

There's also Warsong civilians such as Pooka who is in mourning for her husband, and hasn't told her son about it.
Ok? How does that make Orcs as a race any less bloodthirsty barbarians? Not saying they are completly bonkers, but that they are far more aggressive than others, and more prone to killing.

Quote:
Thrall was raised by an abusive human warlord, you know? Hardly, a loving family.

Orcs aren't the most peaceful race, many seek combat, but they're hardly as bloodthirsty, and vilified as they wore in the last few expansions. They're helpful to their allies, try to maintain their treaties, and will lend a hand for diplomacy.
Thralls doing. Give me examples separate from Thrall. Since it's been stated he has a none-orc way of seeing things.

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Orcs made snowmen in Warcraft II, does that make them green humans in your book?
Orcs make men of snow, you make a man of straw.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:36 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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The orcs need to face up to just how bad they've been for the past several centuries, if not longer. This may necessitate putting down the definition of "honor" in stone, so that it can't just be used as a convenient excuse for whatever an orc feels like doing.

They'd need a very strong leader who can force his/her personality on the culture. Someone with lots of intelligence and charisma, an orcish version of Kemal Atatürk. The "heroes" of the past need to be discarded. However, this shouldn't turn into some kind of guilt trip. Rather, orcs would be expected to constantly improve themselves so that they do not fall into dishonor by attacking carelessly or consorting with demons.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:08 PM
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Having them be afraid, weak, and cowardly would be nice.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:28 PM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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They do not need to be fixed... They need to simply rebuild which looks like the Horde is doing in WoD even if they are fighting other Orcs. Starting with Thrall in a leader role only for his people will be a major i think in his focus especially with the fact he might be able to save some of his family.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:55 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I still find it odd that so many orc fans, in complaining about the orcs hearkening back to their old Horde behavior, apparently find it preferable to believe that the orcs are a bunch of uniformly obedient drones who completely changed their ways just because Thrall told them to.

What they need - and what they have always lacked - is a clear understanding of why Thrall tried to lead them the way he did. His words and example alone just left them confused and infuriated by ideas that weren't familiar to them, but seeing Garrosh's vision of a "true Horde" on Draenor seeking to annihilate any orcs who are no less proud of their people than any other orcs, but just won't join the his "club" could be the very thing to snap them out of their reverence for his ways.

The only way to truly convince the orcs that doing something is wrong is to show them why it's harmful to the orcs, and the Iron Horde - essentially the most complete manifestation of the warmongering old Horde mentality since the old Horde itself - looking to wipe out entire clans for not joining could qualify as such.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:26 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Its in the flavor text of an archaology item.
Which archeology item?

If you mean the clans made war against eachother sometimes, yes they did.

I never said the orcs weren't a fierce, and aggressive race, but they also used diplomacy, and were fully capable of living in relative peace with other beings.

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2006 is when the book was published. Are you saying its not canon, or that its new enough to be disregarded at painting a new picture of Orcs than what we are shown prior?
No, you ignored my message.

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After extensive manipulation by Kil'jaeden falsely convincing that the Draenei were planning to attack.
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Irrelavent. Drek'thar admits to opening hostilities with the Dwarves. Thats the point. Shoot first ask later was what he did.
Where did he say that, it is said by the dwarf npcs that the orcs initiated violence, but most of the orc NPCs say the opposite. Whether the orcs mean the dwarves initiated by entering and digging or outright attacking isn't stated.

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Ok? How does that make Orcs as a race any less bloodthirsty barbarians? Not saying they are completly bonkers, but that they are far more aggressive than others, and more prone to killing.
Orcs are a barbaric, and fierce race, I never denied that. But Orcs are also capable of diplomacy, living in relative peace with their neighbors,


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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Thralls doing. Give me examples separate from Thrall. Since it's been stated he has a none-orc way of seeing things.
Drek'thar explicitly tried to uphold the treaty, we see orc farmers in Durotar, orcs wanting to find who killed Shady Rest Inn's human occupants, ETC.

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Orcs make men of snow, you make a man of straw.
You're the one who started throwing accusations at people who disagreed with MOP's characterization of Orcs.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I still find it odd that so many orc fans, in complaining about the orcs hearkening back to their old Horde behavior, apparently find it preferable to believe that the orcs are a bunch of uniformly obedient drones who completely changed their ways just because Thrall told them to.
They weren't there were plenty of Orcs who disagreed with Thrall without being a bloodthirsty idiot.

If anything, MOP was the expansion that turned them into a hivemind for Garrosh.

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The only way to truly convince the orcs that doing something is wrong is to show them why it's harmful to the orcs, and the Iron Horde - essentially the most complete manifestation of the warmongering old Horde mentality since the old Horde itself - looking to wipe out entire clans for not joining could qualify as such.
WOD will have the Horde team up with the laughing Skulls, portrayed as an insane assassin clan in the quests.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:31 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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My issue isn't so much that I want the orcs to be peaceful so much as I want them to be competent and reasonable.


If the difference between being a "Green human" and an Orc is a willingness to murder literally everyone else in the universe if they don't advance your goals or a lack thereof, then something's wrong, cause that's a demon thing.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:31 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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My issue isn't so much that I want the orcs to be peaceful so much as I want them to be competent and reasonable.
Pretty much this, no one is asking the orcs to hate fighting.

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
If the difference between being a "Green human" and an Orc is a willingness to murder literally everyone else in the universe if they don't advance your goals or a lack thereof, then something's wrong, cause that's a demon thing.

This.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:34 PM
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I still find it odd that so many orc fans, in complaining about the orcs hearkening back to their old Horde behavior, apparently find it preferable to believe that the orcs are a bunch of uniformly obedient drones who completely changed their ways just because Thrall told them to.
True. Warcraft III is wrongfully regarded by players as a complete heel turn on little to no basis. Isn't that worse in terms of story-telling than the pride over-drive depicted in the lead up to Cataclysm?

Quote:
The only way to truly convince the orcs that doing something is wrong is to show them why it's harmful to the orcs, and the Iron Horde - essentially the most complete manifestation of the warmongering old Horde mentality since the old Horde itself - looking to wipe out entire clans for not joining could qualify as such.
Heaven forbid that it be the Alliance that show them how harmful it is. By killing them until they beg for mercy.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:38 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I still find it odd that so many orc fans, in complaining about the orcs hearkening back to their old Horde behavior, apparently find it preferable to believe that the orcs are a bunch of uniformly obedient drones who completely changed their ways just because Thrall told them to.

What they need - and what they have always lacked - is a clear understanding of why Thrall tried to lead them the way he did. His words and example alone just left them confused and infuriated by ideas that weren't familiar to them, but seeing Garrosh's vision of a "true Horde" on Draenor seeking to annihilate any orcs who are no less proud of their people than any other orcs, but just won't join the his "club" could be the very thing to snap them out of their reverence for his ways.

The only way to truly convince the orcs that doing something is wrong is to show them why it's harmful to the orcs, and the Iron Horde - essentially the most complete manifestation of the warmongering old Horde mentality since the old Horde itself - looking to wipe out entire clans for not joining could qualify as such.

1. No one's asking for them to all change just because of Thrall because he wasnever the only one. What about Eitrigg and Saurfang and Drek'thar, and are we really to believe no one in the current generation of orcs was smart enough to sit down and go "Y'know I don't agree with him about everything but he's got a point."


2. Except Garrosh is letting Azeroth orcs join in, look at the Dreadmaul hold orcs, why would any orcs in the playable Horde not want to join in on that if they can be accepted? We've seen no orcs give a damn about what the rest of Garrosh did except for Eitrigg's practical concerns didn't we?


3. Knowing the Orcs nowadays though they'd blame the other clans for not joining. Blizz has written the orcs pretty awfully because they're near universally hypocrites.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:40 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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They weren't there were plenty of Orcs who disagreed with Thrall without being a bloodthirsty idiot.

If anything, MOP was the expansion that turned them into a hivemind for Garrosh.



WOD will have the Horde team up with the laughing Skulls, portrayed as an insane assassin clan in the quests.
Yet their reasons for following Garrosh made sense: pride in their people, the desire for the Horde to be powerful and secure.

Their reasons for following Thrall were based upon two things: his having freed them from the camps, and his "chosen one"-style status. They were being more of a group mentality under Thrall because, in the wake of the Lethargy, his way was basically the only one available to them at the time.

Which isn't to say Garrosh's ways were right, but it made sense that a great many orcs would appreciate those ways because they were familiar and so didn't require Garrosh's constant reinforcement to make sense to them.

And yes, the Laughing Skulls seem to be rather crazy (especially in battle, at least). They also seem to be resisting the Iron Horde mainly because they just want to be left alone to do their own thing in their part of Frostfire without other clans butting in and trying to make them change their identity.

Kinda of hard to hold that against them. They can be crazy all they want, as long as they aren't using that crazy to hurt people who aren't asking for it.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:44 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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My problem with the orcs is we saw jack-shit of any new generation that could rub two brain cells together and disagree with Garrosh ingame.

We got all these nameless orcs in the books who get beaten or killed by Malkorok but that feels like a cheap excuse, the simple fact is the Orcs couldn't handle this in house and it made them look stupid, senselessly aggressive and evil.

WoD is doing that again.


And all we ever have is the Frostwolf clan being the only clan of orcs with anything resembling a moral compass and Eitrigg / Saurfang being old vets that learned their lesson but utterly failed to convey it to anyone else.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:54 PM
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Orcs are #savage, that's why they're orcs. If I was a kor'kron, the most important thing to me would be dying with honor, and following the Warchief to the death. They see themselves as a constant in the system, the unchanging variable. So please, do not recon n an exodus of kor'kron on moral obligation. It makes the determination, resolve, respect to tradition, trust in the system they made their blood oaths to, and the very title they bear; utterly meaningless, thus truly making the orcs we did fight, "evil".

Fighting and dying for Warchief Garrosh was an honor, and that's all that mattered.
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