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  #251  
Old Yesterday, 06:55 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
That's not really an argument worth anything. Whether is this news or not, you are still being hyperbolic for the sake of putting up an exaggerated show, something you won't find me sympathetic towards.
I don't think you could have been accused of being sympathetic to my argument in the first place, so this effort to seek out, isolate, and subsequently declare a single loose, intended-to-be-lighthearted turn of phrase as pretense to dismiss the whole thing really seems unnecessary.
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  #252  
Old Yesterday, 07:44 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I don't think you could have been accused of being sympathetic to my argument in the first place, so this effort to seek out, isolate, and subsequently declare a single loose, intended-to-be-lighthearted turn of phrase as pretense to dismiss the whole thing really seems unnecessary.
Well, here's the thing. It is not pretense. It is just my firm and sincere opinion that if you have to resort to hyperboles and exaggerations when making a point, perhaps the point is not so strong to begin with. It's not personal, it's not tied to the Kaldorei (a rather absurd notion frankly, seeing how I expressed they are amongst my favorite races many times over, both during the past weeks and way more in the past).
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  #253  
Old Yesterday, 08:18 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Well, here's the thing. It is not pretense. It is just my firm and sincere opinion that if you have to resort to hyperboles and exaggerations when making a point, perhaps the point is not so strong to begin with. It's not personal, it's not tied to the Kaldorei (a rather absurd notion frankly, seeing how I expressed they are amongst my favorite races many times over, both during the past weeks and way more in the past).
Getting this out of the way first: sympathy towards my argument is not the same thing as sympathy towards the Kaldorei. I also don't think it's personal. It's just that you've indicated before that you don't really follow where I'm going on this - which makes this search for a reason to put in a public declaration that you don't unnecessary.

To the main point, the hyperbole was to serve a joke, and you may have noticed I tend to do that. I don't actually believe, for instance, that Thalyssra is as unstable as my signature pic would portray her, or that Saurfang is a Nazi now - both of those cases are examples of expressing a concept absurdly as a means of poking fun at the concept. "Army o'archers" is as well. I could see where you're coming from if you were to say that I didn't telegraph that phrase well enough as a joke, but I can't if you are going to imply that I was intentionally exaggerating the case. Those are very different things with very different meanings.
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  #254  
Old Yesterday, 08:38 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Getting this out of the way first: sympathy towards my argument is not the same thing as sympathy towards the Kaldorei. I also don't think it's personal. It's just that you've indicated before that you don't really follow where I'm going on this - which makes this search for a reason to put in a public declaration that you don't unnecessary.
Might have something to do with the fact I considered this a different topic in essence at start.

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
To the main point, the hyperbole was to serve a joke, and you may have noticed I tend to do that. I don't actually believe, for instance, that Thalyssra is as unstable as my signature pic would portray her, or that Saurfang is a Nazi now - both of those cases are examples of expressing a concept absurdly as a means of poking fun at the concept. "Army o'archers" is as well. I could see where you're coming from if you were to say that I didn't telegraph that phrase well enough as a joke, but I can't if you are going to imply that I was intentionally exaggerating the case. Those are very different things with very different meanings.
Pardon me if I am slightly sceptical about that given your previous approach and attitude. Perhaps, you should have thought twice about the future perception of your posts before you declared the main reason you are here is to convince other night elf fans to stop playing the game because of your personal conviction.
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  #255  
Old Yesterday, 09:03 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Marthen, your objection to my repeatedly-stated objective bears no relationship to whether using "army o'archers" is tantamount to actually claiming that night elves don't currently employ other basic units such as glaive throwers and ancient protectors. (It isn't, just so we're clear)

Now, if you don't like my repeatedly-stated reason for being here, that objection belongs in the halls, but I would like to get back to discussing whether or not there is something fundamentally wrong with the Night Elves, and if so, what it is.
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  #256  
Old Yesterday, 10:35 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
In what way? Grom hadn't yet consumed the demon blood - he had merely expanded his logging operation, which if we go by WoW's placement and the size of the warsong lumber camp: wasn't that big - and they turned up to help Cenarius wreck Orcish logging camps.

Demons weren't even on the field yet to the Night Elves' knowledge.
Orcs managed to piss off Cenarius enough. Chimaeras' presence in that mission, and lack of presence in the actual night elf campaign can be attributed to the fact they were only allies through Cenarius, not actual night elf allies.

I am also not sure what you meant by what mountain giants knew what to help with. Their unit description said they woke up to protect the world from the Legion. Malfurion says the same when introducing them in TFT, then says something about bringing them along for the ride in their hunt for Illidan.
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  #257  
Old Yesterday, 10:56 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Orcs managed to piss off Cenarius enough. Chimaeras' presence in that mission, and lack of presence in the actual night elf campaign can be attributed to the fact they were only allies through Cenarius, not actual night elf allies.

I am also not sure what you meant by what mountain giants knew what to help with. Their unit description said they woke up to protect the world from the Legion. Malfurion says the same when introducing them in TFT, then says something about bringing them along for the ride in their hunt for Illidan.
Cenarius was a Night Elf ally at the time. He and the Night Elves had the same goal and purpose, and he states it. "Who dares to defile this ancient land? Who dares the wrath of Cenarius and the Night Elves?"

As ARM brought up, you can't really divorce this kind of stance when discussing Night Elf "political ambitions". Now, Blizzard would go on to separate Cenarius from the Night Elves, but again, I am expressly objecting to those sorts of writing decisions.

On more specific points. You did get chimaera at the end of the RoC campaign (timing was similar to hippogryph riders), and in the TFS campaign. My point with the mountain giants was more that they didn't necessarily know if the legion was the enemy or not or if they were even involved with the particular matter they were helping with.
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  #258  
Old Yesterday, 12:50 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Cenarius was a Night Elf ally at the time. He and the Night Elves had the same goal and purpose, and he states it. "Who dares to defile this ancient land? Who dares the wrath of Cenarius and the Night Elves?"
Yes, and he brought various nature allies such as chimaeras with him. Without Cenarius they don't have the same connections.
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As ARM brought up, you can't really divorce this kind of stance when discussing Night Elf "political ambitions". Now, Blizzard would go on to separate Cenarius from the Night Elves, but again, I am expressly objecting to those sorts of writing decisions.
Yes and no. The various groups within the WC3 night elf faction often have similar goals. This is epitomized by WC3. The sentinels aren't going to show up with nature allies unless the druids are there too with similar goals. Which is why in WoW you don't see night elves with all their WC3 tier units.
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On more specific points. You did get chimaera at the end of the RoC campaign (timing was similar to hippogryph riders), and in the TFS campaign. My point with the mountain giants was more that they didn't necessarily know if the legion was the enemy or not or if they were even involved with the particular matter they were helping with.
Not according to wowpedia and wowwiki. Wowpedia goes out its way to say that chimaeras don't appear in the night elf campaign.

Edit: just checked the game too, chimaeras don't appear even in the last night elf mission. Can't even build a chimaera roost.

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  #259  
Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Edit: just checked the game too, chimaeras don't appear even in the last night elf mission. Can't even build a chimaera roost.
Aye. Chimaeras appeared only and only in the Cenarius mission.

And concerning that one, some of the interpretations here feel rather strange to me. First of all, even in that mission, many creatures such as fearie dragons and giants were absent (lorewise, I know they are an expansion matter). More importantly, it was clear that Cenarious was not there just because the Warsongs were cutting down trees, but more importantly, because he (and all those following him in turn) considered them an envoy of the Legion (I defeated your kind in ages past and I will do so again!).

As for the political stuff, well, I suppose there is some sort of collective amnesia at play here, I find it rather strange all would forget that at the time of Cataclysm, Hyjal was under siege by the forces of Ragnaros and the Twillight's Hammer, centering all the attention of the nature forces on Nordrassil.
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  #260  
Old Yesterday, 04:34 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Aye. Chimaeras appeared only and only in the Cenarius mission.

And concerning that one, some of the interpretations here feel rather strange to me. First of all, even in that mission, many creatures such as fearie dragons and giants were absent (lorewise, I know they are an expansion matter). More importantly, it was clear that Cenarious was not there just because the Warsongs were cutting down trees, but more importantly, because he (and all those following him in turn) considered them an envoy of the Legion (I defeated your kind in ages past and I will do so again!).

As for the political stuff, well, I suppose there is some sort of collective amnesia at play here, I find it rather strange all would forget that at the time of Cataclysm, Hyjal was under siege by the forces of Ragnaros and the Twillight's Hammer, centering all the attention of the nature forces on Nordrassil.
I am guilty of this. I didn't even remember Hyjal until you brought it up.
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  #261  
Old Yesterday, 07:44 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Pedantic stuff first.

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Aye. Chimaeras appeared only and only in the Cenarius mission.
I was surprised when I checked the last Night Elf mission again myself and found that I was wrong about this. That said, I also checked the Frozen Throne campaign and found them in "Balancing the Scales". I didn't check missions subsequent to this in the lineup, but they are there.

That said, apologies for the earlier mistake.

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More importantly, it was clear that Cenarious was not there just because the Warsongs were cutting down trees, but more importantly, because he (and all those following him in turn) considered them an envoy of the Legion (I defeated your kind in ages past and I will do so again!).
He called them demon spawned wretches as well. There's also this sequence:

Cenarius: The demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were!
Grom Hellscream: We orcs are free, demigod!
Cenarius: Is that what you tell yourself? Despite what you may believe, you are no better than the malignant bile that flows through your veins.
Grom Hellscream: Damn you! RAGH!

This was certainly later clarified to be him mistaking them for demons, but before the writers chose that (I'll come back to this particular point later), it looked like he was picking up on the demon blood while addressing the fact that the land was being defiled.

Quote:
As for the political stuff, well, I suppose there is some sort of collective amnesia at play here, I find it rather strange all would forget that at the time of Cataclysm, Hyjal was under siege by the forces of Ragnaros and the Twillight's Hammer, centering all the attention of the nature forces on Nordrassil.
I've addressed this already. The events of Cataclysm do not explain their continued absence after that expansion.


Now for the less pedantic stuff:

Quote:
Yes and no. The various groups within the WC3 night elf faction often have similar goals. This is epitomized by WC3. The sentinels aren't going to show up with nature allies unless the druids are there too with similar goals. Which is why in WoW you don't see night elves with all their WC3 tier units.
I really can't identify where you believe those goals diverged. The Night Elves have always had the core of their identity wrapped up in protecting the wilds, and the writers' choice to farm much of that purpose off to a neutral faction (without ever really filling that hole), and to go out of their way to present them as being separate from the playable faction is accordingly something I've always recoiled against.

The last four words are also important. I argue that Blizzard should not have removed the druidic elements and the natural allies in the way that they did, and I'm emphasizing this because you seem to be spending a lot of time trying to remind me of Cata era lore explanations and other decisions from that era, telling me what IS the case with what the writers chose to do. OUGHT does not follow from IS, and I have argued this whole time with respect to what I feel the writers OUGHT to have done.

Put more bluntly, your response to my claim is running into Hume's guillotine.
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  #262  
Old Yesterday, 09:08 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I was surprised when I checked the last Night Elf mission again myself and found that I was wrong about this. That said, I also checked the Frozen Throne campaign and found them in "Balancing the Scales". I didn't check missions subsequent to this in the lineup, but they are there.

That said, apologies for the earlier mistake.
It's cool. I don't think I was unclear with them being in TFT though.
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I've addressed this already. The events of Cataclysm do not explain their continued absence after that expansion.
Not if the later conflicts take place outside their home.
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I really can't identify where you believe those goals diverged. The Night Elves have always had the core of their identity wrapped up in protecting the wilds, and the writers' choice to farm much of that purpose off to a neutral faction (without ever really filling that hole), and to go out of their way to present them as being separate from the playable faction is accordingly something I've always recoiled against.
Their wilds. The Sentinels don't seem to care about nature outside their homeland as much as the druids. The druids also don't seem to be as invested in the Alliance as the Sentinels do. There are some overlaps but I don't think it's completely the same.
Quote:
The last four words are also important. I argue that Blizzard should not have removed the druidic elements and the natural allies in the way that they did, and I'm emphasizing this because you seem to be spending a lot of time trying to remind me of Cata era lore explanations and other decisions from that era, telling me what IS the case with what the writers chose to do. OUGHT does not follow from IS, and I have argued this whole time with respect to what I feel the writers OUGHT to have done.

Put more bluntly, your response to my claim is running into Hume's guillotine.
It's also hard to do when the argument for what should have been is partly rooted in what actually happened. I suppose you can come up with reasons why it could be.
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  #263  
Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I think that the only thing that the forces of nature would be worrying about after Cata and before Legion would be the conflict in northern Kalimdor. We know that the night elves pushed the Horde all the way across Ashenvale up to Orgrimmar. For all we know, the forces of nature did participate in that conflict.

Now what we'll have to see is what they do in BfA.
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  #264  
Old Today, 01:05 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
He called them demon spawned wretches as well. There's also this sequence:

Cenarius: The demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were!
Grom Hellscream: We orcs are free, demigod!
Cenarius: Is that what you tell yourself? Despite what you may believe, you are no better than the malignant bile that flows through your veins.
Grom Hellscream: Damn you! RAGH!

This was certainly later clarified to be him mistaking them for demons, but before the writers chose that (I'll come back to this particular point later), it looked like he was picking up on the demon blood while addressing the fact that the land was being defiled.
Ehm, I specifically said "an envoy of the Legion", not "demonic armies of the Legion". The rest of his dialogue runs in line with that easily.


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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I've addressed this already. The events of Cataclysm do not explain their continued absence after that expansion.
As pointed out already, these happened outside Northern Kalimdor, until Legion.

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
OUGHT does not follow from IS, and I have argued this whole time with respect to what I feel the writers OUGHT to have done.
Well,the issue is, there is not a simple way to determine what "ought to have been done", as there is never just one way to go, and people will differ in their opinion at what ought to have been and be.

For example, to me, the larger absence of these creatures feels sensible and serves a nice example of the Third War's consequences. To me, what ought to happen (ideally, as I won't be splitting hairs if it ever does not specifically for the reasons I am trying to explain here) in the wake of the Third War's blunders and other such (the Nightmare, for example) is a full realization that Malfurion's way after the Sundering was simply swinging from one extreme to another, resulting in a full cultural upheaval. The druids taking a backseat, although not losing their influence completely, magic and its institutions (the Moon Guard) coming back, higher civilization returning. In a way, a return to the times of their civilization before Azshara, only their bond with Nature even stronger than during those times and exemplified through the druids. They should realize again their name means star elves, not forest elves or vigil elves.
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