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  #76  
Old 03-19-2012, 01:59 AM
Killchrono Killchrono is offline

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Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
They have no time to develop another character. And let's be honest? The dude won't be nearly as iconic as Thrall. That's a big deal. Some no-name schmuck becoming Warchief because Thrall would rather neglect his duty to the Horde he founded in order to raise kids? Nah, man.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Thrall wanted to do; he wanted to be relieved of his duty so he could have a family and do something for himself for a change.

Thrall might be iconic, but there's more to Warcraft then him. Cataclysm was his time in the sunshine, they should move on and give someone else a chance. Heck, even if they start developing a new permanent Warchief and have someone like Saurfang or Vol'jin stand in for the meantime.
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  #77  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:00 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Second off, this is exactly what I was afraid of when it comes to directing the Alliance's wrath. Why is the Alliance so focused on killing Garrosh when not only is there nothing to suggest that the Horde war machine will suddenly stop if Garrosh is killed, but why are they so focused on the Orcs at all? The press release mentions the Horde getting upset at Garrosh's "atrocities" but Garrosh ISN'T RESPONSIBLE for the worst atrocities the Horde has committed. That would be the Forsaken. So why is he getting blamed for things that the Horde has done largely AGAINST his commands?
Maybe you're missing the part where there's a whole expansion worth of story and character development which explain how and Garrosh becomes increasingly vicious, violent and aggressive and why he needs to go down? Why do you take into account only the events that happened so far?

Also, how come your jimmies are so rustles every time there's anything involving the Horde? Seems to me you'll never be satisfied no matter what Blizzard do. They just gave you the chance to be involved in Garrosh's killing and you're still complaining about it.

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  #78  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:02 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Thrall wanted to do; he wanted to be relieved of his duty so he could have a family and do something for himself for a change.

Thrall might be iconic, but there's more to Warcraft then him. Cataclysm was his time in the sunshine, they should move on and give someone else a chance. Heck, even if they start developing a new permanent Warchief and have someone like Saurfang or Vol'jin stand in for the meantime.
No, Thrall wanted to save the world. It was only after he'd put his mantle down that he realized he had never had time for himself. That he had become the Horde.

Of course there's more to Warcraft than Thrall, but Thrall is the Horde. I imagine that Thrall will reign as Warchief until his child succeeds him.
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  #79  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:02 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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That's the problem, if he stops playing maybe he'll stop coming here to complain?
He needs a user group made for him that only lets him see General Discussion since that seems to be the only place where the conversation doesn't involve the words sylvanas, lordaeron, and 'retaking x area'.
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  #80  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:04 AM
Odin Odin is offline

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Eh, it was always going to happen this way, really. Garrosh's whole character arc was leading the orcs back down a path that embraced their old, violent ways. It was always going to end the same.
Everyone know that this will happen,but come on .I was hoping that Blizzard still have something in them.
WC3 have good story,SC have good story,Diablo have good story.

Instead we get Duke Nuker Forever for the Warcraft lore. Old good stuff for their time mixed with new stuff and brought back to life as horrible abomination .
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  #81  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:09 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Maybe you're missing the part where there's a whole expansion worth of story and character development which explain how and Garrosh becomes increasingly vicious, violent and aggressive and why he needs to go down? Why do you take into account only the events that happened so far?

Also, how come your jimmies are so rustles every time there's anything involving the Horde? Seems to me you'll never be satisfied no matter what Blizzard do. They just gave you the chance to be involved in Garrosh's killing and you're still complaining about it.
Because, as Volkrin said in another thread, the Alliance isn't part of this to be part of the plot. They're there so that they can wave their flag around and go "We're here too!"

This is still the Horde's story, and we now know that Alliance players won't even get to kill Garrosh anyway. Thrall is gonna kill Garrosh because that's how neutrality works.

The fact that I've never really held the intense loathing of Garrosh that I have for Sylvanas and the Forsaken is probably a contributing factor, but don't get me wrong. I'm still happy to go into Orgrimmar and hand Garrosh his rear on a blue-and-gold platter, but as far as tangible benefit to the Alliance from both an in-universe and out of universe perspective goes, we don't get much out of this. We don't even get bragging rights because the Horde fights Garrosh as well.

Again, the end result of all this is the restoration of the status quo. A status quo which was shitty for the Alliance.
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  #82  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:10 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
Thrall is returning. I don't know how people can even imagine someone else becoming Warchief. There is nobody else.
Optimism?

We've seen the Horde under Thrall. We've seen it under Garrosh. Now lets see the Horde under Vol'jin.
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  #83  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:10 AM
Killchrono Killchrono is offline

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Then what's the point of killing Garrosh if it doesn't stop the war?
...wow.

I honestly don't know where to begin. You mean you'd rather let Garrosh live because it's not going to stop the war anyway?

Garrosh who pushed the orcs into all out war in Ashenvale and the Barrens? Who's gone out of his way and put his own troops at risk just to have his jollies by killing the Alliance?

You, mister 'The Alliance needs more balls and to put the Horde in its place,' would rather not have Garrosh killed simply because it's not going to sort everything out?

I honestly don't know where to begin.

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No, Thrall wanted to save the world. It was only after he'd put his mantle down that he realized he had never had time for himself. That he had become the Horde.

Of course there's more to Warcraft than Thrall, but Thrall is the Horde. I imagine that Thrall will reign as Warchief until his child succeeds him.
That's not what that whole questline dedicated to him suggested. He spent years denying himself what he wanted because he was too busy focusing on other people. He realized that he needed to settle down and stop burdening himself so much.

The Cataclysm ending was a satisfying finale for him which wrapped up that story nicely. It should stay at that.

And honestly, from a literary perspective? Thrall has just become a terrible character. He needs to be written out for quality control.

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Because, as Volkrin said in another thread, the Alliance isn't part of this to be part of the plot. They're there so that they can wave their flag around and go "We're here too!"
You mean apart from that whole 'destroying Theramoore' thing?
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  #84  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:13 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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...wow.

I honestly don't know where to begin. You mean you'd rather let Garrosh live because it's not going to stop the war anyway?

Garrosh who pushed the orcs into all out war in Ashenvale and the Barrens? Who's gone out of his way and put his own troops at risk just to have his jollies by killing the Alliance?

You, mister 'The Alliance needs more balls and to put the Horde in its place,' would rather not have Garrosh killed simply because it's not going to sort everything out?

I honestly don't know where to begin.
Again, what's the tangible benefit to killing Garrosh? It doesn't end the war and it actually ends up BENEFITING the Horde to such a degree that they get to keep all the territory that they've conquered. Why not wait for the Horde to exhaust itself with infighting, and THEN intervene, retaking the territory that the Horde has taken and THEN kill Garrosh? Horde players are complaining about the fact that the Alliance gets to participate in killing Garrosh, but quite frankly, how is the Horde harmed at all by these developments? Where's the downside for the Horde here?

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You mean apart from that whole 'destroying Theramoore' thing?
That's just another example of the Alliance being reactionary.
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  #85  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:18 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Again, what's the tangible benefit to killing Garrosh? It doesn't end the war and it actually ends up BENEFITING the Horde to such a degree that they get to keep all the territory that they've conquered. Why not wait for the Horde to exhaust itself with infighting, and THEN intervene, retaking the territory that the Horde has taken and THEN kill Garrosh? Horde players are complaining about the fact that the Alliance gets to participate in killing Garrosh, but quite frankly, how is the Horde harmed at all by these developments? Where's the downside for the Horde here?



That's just another example of the Alliance being reactionary.
You don't know what's going to happen. Thrall, in an effort to make peace, could grant the Alliance all of Ashenvale. It doesn't need to necessarily be shown in game (though, maybe phasing for level 90s?), because lorewise, it's Alliance. The same with Gilneas.

Thrall won't be able to grant the Alliance Silverpine, or Lordaeron, because he isn't going to fuck the Forsaken. He'd give us something like Ashenvale, where he can actually pull his troops out. Especially now that the Barrens and such is becoming a giant god damn forest.

And the Alliance has always been reactionary to the Horde. Since Warcraft 1.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:19 AM
Killchrono Killchrono is offline

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Again, what's the tangible benefit to killing Garrosh? It doesn't end the war and it actually ends up BENEFITING the Horde to such a degree that they get to keep all the territory that they've conquered. Why not wait for the Horde to exhaust itself with infighting, and THEN intervene, retaking the territory that the Horde has taken and THEN kill Garrosh? Horde players are complaining about the fact that the Alliance gets to participate in killing Garrosh, but quite frankly, how is the Horde harmed at all by these developments? Where's the downside for the Horde here?
I haven't seen any Horde players complain about the Alliance getting to kill Garrosh.

But then again, I don't read the story forums these days.

I could spend all night arguing with you, but since I've got to get to the gym and cook dinner at some point, I'm going to say what I've always said to you:

You've clearly decided the story is crap and it's not going the way you want for the faction you support. You're clearly unhappy. If you think this whole thing is beyond repair, then just fucking quit the damn game and be happier for it. God knows you've been a hair away from doing so for the past two, three years now.
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  #87  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:20 AM
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And the Alliance has always been reactionary to the Horde. Since Warcraft 1.
Which needs to end. Otherwise the Alliance will always be bland.

I'll see how this expansion goes. Just, based off of stuff so far, I get the vibe that Blizzard didn't get the point of why the Alliance doesn't dig the story for their side. Which makes sense considering all the complaining about wins and losses that went on.
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  #88  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:23 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You don't know what's going to happen. Thrall, in an effort to make peace, could grant the Alliance all of Ashenvale. It doesn't need to necessarily be shown in game (though, maybe phasing for level 90s?), because lorewise, it's Alliance. The same with Gilneas.

Thrall won't be able to grant the Alliance Silverpine, or Lordaeron, because he isn't going to fuck the Forsaken. He'd give us something like Ashenvale, where he can actually pull his troops out. Especially now that the Barrens and such is becoming a giant god damn forest.
Whoop de fucking do. As an unimaginable gesture of good faith, Thrall agrees to do the unthinkable and stop invading the territories that the Horde began invading all the way back in Vanilla. This isn't a concession or gesture of good will, "not invade your enemy's territory anymore" is common fucking sense if you want to end a war.

It'd be like if Japan's concessions after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to stop trying to invade Australia. "concessions" generally involve GIVING your enemy something, not letting them have what they ALREADY HAVE.

I mean seriously, did you think this through? "As reward for your services in helping to put down Garrosh, the honorable and powerful Warchief Thrall has decided to let you live. Be grateful, peasants."
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  #89  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:29 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Whoop de fucking do. As an unimaginable gesture of good faith, Thrall agrees to do the unthinkable and stop invading the territories that the Horde began invading all the way back in Vanilla. This isn't a concession or gesture of good will, "not invade your enemy's territory anymore" is common fucking sense if you want to end a war.

It'd be like if Japan's concessions after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to stop trying to invade Australia. "concessions" generally involve GIVING your enemy something, not letting them have what they ALREADY HAVE.

I mean seriously, did you think this through? "As reward for your services in helping to put down Garrosh, the honorable and powerful Warchief Thrall has decided to let you live. Be grateful, peasants."
Why would he make concessions, and why would we need it? We just defeated the Horde (again), and have an army in their Capital City.

Resetting our territories to pre-war conditions and taking the Warsong completely out of Ashenvale would be fine.

Some exceptions would be made, like have the Alliance completely conquer Feralas/Swamp of Sorrows, while the Forsaken still gets Hillsbrad. Not like we'd want to move into Southshore again.

The Horde have owned half of Ashenvale even in peace time, so it'd be a great gesture of good will if he returned all of Ashenvale and pulled his troops back.

If both sides want the peace to last, we can't just fucking steam roll it and take all of the Horde's good shit. That'd be like Germany post WW1. How'd that end?

EDIT: Of course, you would forget the fact that the Horde have been occupying fucking Ashenvale for the entirety of WoW, and having them pull out completely would be a big deal, right? Since it doesn't involve Lordaeron.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:32 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Why would he make concessions
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We just defeated the Horde (again), and have an army in their Capital City.
Er...

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Some exceptions would be made, like have the Alliance completely conquer Feralas/Swamp of Sorrows, while the Forsaken still gets Hillsbrad. Not like we'd want to move into Southshore again.
The Humans and Night Elves will get Human and Night Elf territory? Oh, praise the benevolent and merciful Horde for allowing the Alliance to live in the territories they've been living in for hundreds of generations! It's a good thing that we put Thrall back on the throne! Oh, and of course the Forsaken should be able to keep all the territory they've conquered. I mean it's not like they've done anything wrong or forced thousands of refugees out of their homes, right? And it's not like Theramore was destroyed and the survivors no longer have a place to go, right?

If we beat the Horde so badly that we KILL THEIR WARCHIEF they shouldn't be in ANY position to refuse demands like "Get the fuck out of Lordaeron and Ashenvale." If the Alliance is too much of a pussy to even make demands like that, why fight a war at all? They should all just fucking die.
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  #91  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:33 AM
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Fuck the Alliance. The overall story will suck balls for both factions .
The Horde will look like retards.They need Thrall for telling them what to do.I mean this is ,,Orcs must die " fantasy orcs kind of stupid : ,,Hurr,durr,thank you for letting me know that eating babies is bad orc Jesus.Now I will know better. "
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:37 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Er...



The Humans and Night Elves will get Human and Night Elf territory? Oh, praise the benevolent and merciful Horde for allowing the Alliance to live in the territories they've been living in for hundreds of generations! It's a good thing that we put Thrall back on the throne! Oh, and of course the Forsaken should be able to keep all the territory they've conquered. I mean it's not like they've done anything wrong, right?
You do realize you are going to have to figure out things that wouldn't involve completely redoing a zone?

It'd be easy to have Stonard or the Horde encampments in Ashenvale lie empty. Simple phasing for people who have finished the instance (and the questing in the area).

Cleansing and repopulating Hillsbrad would be a pain in the ass. You have forgotten that the Alliance already holds Gilneas and most of the Hinterlands?

And the Swamp of Sorrows being Alliance territory for generations is retarded. Nobody ever went there, and nobody lived there, which is why the Horde so easily set up base in Warcraft 1.

And, yeah, the Horde pulling out of Ashenvale is a good act. Because right now, it seems, lore wise, they control over half of it.

And, about the concessions, right after the battle of Orgrimmar, promising to withdraw troops and let the Alliance keep what they've taken is a pretty damn good one for a pre-treaty arrangement. Of course it'd have to be hammered out, but a "Thanks for the help Alliance, have your shit back!" is a damn good concession.

And I didn't say the Forsaken hadn't done anything, and I hate the Forsaken as much as almost any other Alliance player. But, in the end, why the fuck would you want to move back into Southshore or anywhere else after the shit it's had done to it?
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:40 AM
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Yeah, I don't see how this is very compelling for Alliance players at all.

And I'm inclined to agree with Fojar - if they want to make it compelling, have the Alliance kick the Forsaken out of Lordaeron, for good.

Naturally, that will never happen. So, we get to beat up the Warchief that everyone in the Horde hates anyway.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:41 AM
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Going back over it a bit, looks like we solving the Panderains problems instead of causing them.

A bit dissapointed, was hoping we would have been the invading force for once.

Go all Twilight on the Panda in the name of the (insert Faction)
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:42 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Apparently Metzen has said this about the Alliance's involvement in the siege of Orgrimmar:

I look back at Warcraft past and I see guys like Uther and Lothar -- Stunning, Chris, how many vowels and "th" sounds can you throw into your names? I guess we're just lucky there weren't any apostrophes in there -- but I very much always wanted Varian to become like those characters, you know? He's a little younger than they are, but there's a stud in there, a rock inside that kid, that could be a better king than his daddy was, a better king than we've ever seen.
(...)
And a way I like to illustrate this, even in the Orgrimmar encounter (bounces up and down in his seat a little, excited), I have asked the guys to have one of the main objectives, you know like when you're going through a dungeon and you have those little side quests? Well, one of the main side quests is Varian being very specific: "Protect the kids. We're not here to conquer these people; we're here to bring down a guy that needs bringin' down." So imagine artillery, imagine the soldiers -- it's gonna be horrific -- but Varian saying, "We're the good guys. We're not here to massacre or enact vengeance on these people. They've been put upon by a bad man."

So in a way, I want even the gameplay to indicate that Varian is fighting a very different kind of war than Garrosh, remembering what the Alliance is supposed to be about. This lawful good overdrive. We're supposed to be superheroes, you know? Have we lost our way a little bit with all this roughin' up? And I want players to feel that overdrive -- we're in it to make the world a better place. And I think also the Horde will have its own version of that, you know, stopping to consider what's happened the past couple of years and what's been lost and fighting its feet again, spiritually. And that's gonna play out in ways I think people don't expect yet, which is really exciting to me.

But I definitely think we're coming with some Alliance love. They'll be proud to be Alliance by the end of this thing.
That's why Thrall is coming back.

MoP is going to be the pinnacle of Warcraft's overall superhero fantasy antics. It's inevitable, really, and this has been the direction of WoW since quite likely its inception.

At this point I've simply accepted that. All I can hope for is that they don't fuck up with making Varian on the same wavelength as Uther and Lothar. (Which, to be honest, is going to be really heavy for them to pull off since both of those characters are very grounded whereas Varian is not.)

Props to Vyrin on the quote.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:46 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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It'd be easy to have Stonard or the Horde encampments in Ashenvale lie empty. Simple phasing for people who have finished the instance (and the questing in the area).
The Alliance already won in Swamp of Sorrows. How is the Horde saying that the Alliance can have it a concession?

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Cleansing and repopulating Hillsbrad would be a pain in the ass. You have forgotten that the Alliance already holds Gilneas and most of the Hinterlands?
If "it's hard" is the rationale for not bothering to try and reclaim Lordaeron then I stand by my assertion that the Alliance should choke and die.

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And the Swamp of Sorrows being Alliance territory for generations is retarded. Nobody ever went there, and nobody lived there, which is why the Horde so easily set up base in Warcraft 1.
Joanna Blueheart would disagree with your assessment.

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And, about the concessions, right after the battle of Orgrimmar, promising to withdraw troops and let the Alliance keep what they've taken is a pretty damn good one for a pre-treaty arrangement. Of course it'd have to be hammered out, but a "Thanks for the help Alliance, have your shit back!" is a damn good concession.
Ignoring that Lordaeron falls firmly within the purview of "Alliance shit," no, it's not a good concession. Half of that territory has already been retaken by the Alliance and this is at a point in time when the Alliance would have the Horde by the balls. It's like if the Horde said "Well, if you give us our city back we'll give you guys Stormwind!" and the Alliance, being morons, said "Hurrr okay!"

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And I didn't say the Forsaken hadn't done anything, and I hate the Forsaken as much as almost any other Alliance player. But, in the end, why the fuck would you want to move back into Southshore or anywhere else after the shit it's had done to it?
Because the Argent Crusade has proven that it can be done. Why WOULDN'T they want it back, especially considering its history and emotional importance for humanity?
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:51 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Is it really so difficult for people to accept that the Alliance will not be getting Lordaeron back for the duration of WoW? Even after all this time? Game mechanics demands the Forsaken have a starting zone. The number of capitals in the Eastern Kingdoms to be considered and other not-so-game-mechanics reasons like the massive Forsaken army that keeps growing being ready to defend it....
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:56 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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sigh...so it's one of those raids were "heroes" kill the raid boss but we don't know who exactly did it because it's not faction exclusive thing? Idk, this whole lack of canon where the Alliance is building up an army and chooses to attack and maybe the Alliance version is canon kind of bums me out. And Thrall gets the killing blow? It's an MMO but yeah, I hope the Alliance version will be canon where the Alliance came in there and took out Garrosh. I hope it's not like the Alliance has to make their comeback but its ambiguous and have the Horde steal the Alliance thunder. Trials of the high king and then...yeah. Blizz is trying but yeah... I feel like the horde will steal the thunder. THE HORDE RUINS EVERYTHING! j.k not excited but kind of meh.
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:00 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Holy shit people can be negative as fuck... Back when the Alliance where crying about Theramore they cried out that they wanted to raid Ogrimmar and they get to actually do that... WoW will not end with MoP so how about people get a bit excited and then wait to see how it plays out when the time comes.
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:02 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Is it really so difficult for people to accept that the Alliance will not be getting Lordaeron back for the duration of WoW? Even after all this time? Game mechanics demands the Forsaken have a starting zone. The number of capitals in the Eastern Kingdoms to be considered and other not-so-game-mechanics reasons like the massive Forsaken army that keeps growing being ready to defend it....
The problems are

A) The Alliance doesn't even acknowledge that it exists

B) The Forsaken are the most dire threat to the Alliance and have been for some time, yet the Alliance keeps sperging about the Orcs for some reason

C) There's a tremendously high amount of Alliance story content going on there but we never get to see it

D) The fact that Lordaeron's history and storyline is an Alliance one hasn't been consolidated, making it feel like everything involving the Alliance prior to WoW affects the Horde more than the Alliance.

These are things that can be fixed without the Alliance actually retaking the territory, and as far as this is relevant to MoP, it's something that DAMN WELL SHOULD come up when the Alliance is smacking down the Horde in Orgrimmar. Varian shouldn't hand the city over to the Horde without getting a promise in writing from Thrall that the Forsaken situation will be dealt with and that the Alliance will play a role in it.
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