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  #251  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:23 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Monozygotic twins have the same genetic make-up, but still develop to be different people
Beat me to it. Clones already exist in nature. We call them identical twins, and afford them the same rights as everyone else.
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  #252  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:25 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
I hope human cloning never becomes real. The clones will obviously not be allowed to be normal citizens. They would be used only for organ transplants, and the military. That is barbaric.
This was the plot of a book I believe. They weren't twins, but siblings raised for the sole purpose of genetic matches for a sick child.

I think it was a book.

sometimes I have real life and fantasy mixed up they seem so damned similar.
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  #253  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
Beat me to it. Clones already exist in nature. We call them identical twins, and afford them the same rights as everyone else.
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My wife is pregnant with identical twins, but we are both Catholics. Since the soul joins the body at conception, and identical twins are conceived as one zygote and split later, does this mean that the twins will have only half a soul each? While we will of course love our children no matter what, my wife and I are concerned about the practicalities. If they only have one soul between them, do we have to baptize them as one person?
People are stupid. Stupidity is a valid concern.
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  #254  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:29 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
This was the plot of a book I believe. They weren't twins, but siblings raised for the sole purpose of genetic matches for a sick child.

I think it was a book.

sometimes I have real life and fantasy mixed up they seem so damned similar.
If I remember correctly, this is already happening. A child is genetically modified so that he/she can be a potential transplant donor to his/her older sibling.

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People are stupid. Stupidity is a valid concern.
Sad. I remember in Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart" that twins were even mutilated because they're though to be bad juju.
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  #255  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
This was the plot of a book I believe. They weren't twins, but siblings raised for the sole purpose of genetic matches for a sick child.

I think it was a book.

sometimes I have real life and fantasy mixed up they seem so damned similar.
My Sister's Keeper by Jodi Picault.

I brought it up in a course we're taking on bioethics in science fiction just the other day- we're reading Kaz Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go and I pointed out how clones could have protection under the legal system and used that book as an example.
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  #256  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:44 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
My Sister's Keeper by Jodi Picault.

I brought it up in a course we're taking on bioethics in science fiction just the other day- we're reading Kaz Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go and I pointed out how clones could have protection under the legal system and used that book as an example.
The point, as I saw it, of Never Let Me Go was that by the time anyone realized that they were harvesting organs from actual people for all these vaguely defined but apparently miraculous medical procedures, the procedures had become too socially integral to stop. The clones could theoretically have protection under the legal system, but the system was obligated to choose between ignoring the systematic slaughter of easily dehumanized persons or returning to the dark ages.
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  #257  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:46 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
Sad. I remember in Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart" that twins were even mutilated because they're though to be bad juju.
In certain parts of Africa albinos are brutally killed because their organs are believed to have magic properties or something. I always feel murderous after hearing that (saw it in several tv shows), it is just so horrible to spend your entire life hiding only to be found and killed by some ignorant thugs.
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  #258  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:56 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
People are stupid. Stupidity is a valid concern.
I mean, I don't believe in a soul - but assume that you do believe in the concept of a soul. Why would these two parents be considered stupid?
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  #259  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
The point, as I saw it, of Never Let Me Go was that by the time anyone realized that they were harvesting organs from actual people for all these vaguely defined but apparently miraculous medical procedures, the procedures had become too socially integral to stop. The clones could theoretically have protection under the legal system, but the system was obligated to choose between ignoring the systematic slaughter of easily dehumanized persons or returning to the dark ages.
And my point which my professor didn't like was "As soon as someone points out how economically inefficient it is to raise human beings from childhood to serve as organ donors when we could grow their organs in vitro, and replace the 'carer' position with AIs, there's no reason to keep it in place".


I'm not a fan of "social science fiction" that disregards the science for the social.
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  #260  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:01 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
My Sister's Keeper by Jodi Picault.

I brought it up in a course we're taking on bioethics in science fiction just the other day- we're reading Kaz Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go and I pointed out how clones could have protection under the legal system and used that book as an example.
Yeah that's it.

We brought that up under our ethics portion of biotech.
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  #261  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:14 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
And my point which my professor didn't like was "As soon as someone points out how economically inefficient it is to raise human beings from childhood to serve as organ donors when we could grow their organs in vitro, and replace the 'carer' position with AIs, there's no reason to keep it in place".


I'm not a fan of "social science fiction" that disregards the science for the social.
Yeah, I was skeptical of the process as well. The implication was that for some reason the organic components the procedures needed only occurred in the desired state in complete human bodies. It's...dubious at best, but whatever fictional medicine they were working seems to go beyond organ donation.
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  #262  
Old 02-27-2013, 01:39 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I mean, I don't believe in a soul - but assume that you do believe in the concept of a soul. Why would these two parents be considered stupid?
I don't believe in souls, but if I did, I would consider the notion that a human being can have half a soul or none stupid. Why? Because you should either believe that everyone has one or simply don't believe in souls.
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  #263  
Old 02-27-2013, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I don't believe in souls, but if I did, I would consider the notion that a human being can have half a soul or none stupid. Why? Because you should either believe that everyone has one or simply don't believe in souls.
I could say that the mentally challenged may have less of a soul than someone with full cognitive faculties, but a pair of twins with no cognitive problems would each have a fully formed soul.
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  #264  
Old 02-27-2013, 01:54 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I could say that the mentally challenged may have less of a soul than someone with full cognitive faculties, but a pair of twins with no cognitive problems would each have a fully formed soul.
So you attribute the deficiencies of the organs to the soul? If one of my limbs gets amputated, am I also cutting of a part of my soul? I mean, if being mentally challenged, in other words having a brain that doesn't function as it should, makes you have half a soul, shouldn't the same apply to the other organs? (You'll probably say that it has something to do with consciousness and that being mentally challenged means that you aren't fully aware.)

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  #265  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:06 PM
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So you attribute the deficiencies of the organs to the soul? If one of my limbs gets amputated, am I also cutting of a part of my soul? I mean, if being mentally challenged, in other words having a brain that doesn't function as it should, makes you have half a soul, shouldn't the same apply to the other organs? (You'll probably say that it has something to do with consciousness and that being mentally challenged means that you aren't fully aware.)
Oh no, I don't believe in a soul either: but I was playing devil's advocate and presenting a situation in which one could see some kind of soul deficiency.

Of course, an interpretation of consciousness coming from the soul may discount neurology and neurochemistry in the equation.
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  #266  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:12 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Oh no, I don't believe in a soul either: but I was playing devil's advocate and presenting a situation in which one could see some kind of soul deficiency.

Of course, an interpretation of consciousness coming from the soul may discount neurology and neurochemistry in the equation.
Yeah, I know you don't. Don't worry.

I'd say that souls should not be mixed with science. Using pseudo science to justify atrocities is never fun. Always remember Calvin Candie, kids.
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  #267  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:25 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I don't believe in souls, but if I did, I would consider the notion that a human being can have half a soul or none stupid. Why? Because you should either believe that everyone has one or simply don't believe in souls.
I don't think your logic works. You essentially said that you shouldn't beleive X, only Y or Z. You didn't give a reason not to believe X.
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  #268  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:27 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I don't believe in souls, but if I did, I would consider the notion that a human being can have half a soul or none stupid. Why? Because you should either believe that everyone has one or simply don't believe in souls.
The concept of "soulmates" is very common, even for non-religious people. The notion presumes that human souls are not whole, and need to be completed through uniting with other souls.
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Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

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  #269  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:28 PM
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The human soul is not complete until it is joined with an AI and becomes part of the electronic noosphere.
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  #270  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:32 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I don't think your logic works. You essentially said that you shouldn't believe X, only Y or Z. You didn't give a reason not to believe X.
Because they are using science in connection to a concept that has no scientific basis whatsoever, and because souls are, supposedly, that which gives a body life. If a twin is able to live even if the other is dead, how can they share a soul?

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
The concept of "soulmates" is very common, even for non-religious people. The notion presumes that human souls are not whole, and need to be completed through uniting with other souls.
So twins are meant to marry each other?

Edit: Anyways, doesn't the assumption that some, and not all like Verdande's post says, people have a fraction of a soul while others have a whole soul seem extremely strange? Are they considered less than human?
You religious people befuddle me...

Last edited by Nazja; 02-27-2013 at 02:40 PM..
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  #271  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:32 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I don't think your logic works. You essentially said that you shouldn't beleive X, only Y or Z. You didn't give a reason not to believe X.
I understand the soul to be a quality unique to each person. By claiming that monozygotic twins, conceived as one but born separately, must share a soul because the moment of conception is held sacred defeats the purpose and meaning of the word. Each one is no less a person than the other.
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  #272  
Old 03-05-2013, 09:35 AM
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So I've been doing some reading on SPACE.com and apparently there is a big discussion between people who are pro-terraforming and those who believe humans have no right to utterly change alien worlds. The debate is especially fierce over should we or should we not terraform Mars.

I am 1000,5% percent behind terraforming and it came to as a something of a shock to me that there are many people (any even) who are against the idea. Simply put while microbial Martian life, if it exists, can be valuable and should be studied for possible gains (and risks) it hardly deserves to keep sentient beings cramped on a single plant just so these microbes could be given a chance to, maybe, evolve into something interesting in a billion years. Especially when Earthbased life is so impossibly complex and diverse, just imagine how many endangered species could be saved if we gave them huge habitats on an alien world. To me that is much nobler then leaving pristine but barren worlds.

So I say terraform soon and terraform much, what do you guys think?
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  #273  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:04 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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So I've been doing some reading on SPACE.com and apparently there is a big discussion between people who are pro-terraforming and those who believe humans have no right to utterly change alien worlds. The debate is especially fierce over should we or should we not terraform Mars.

I am 1000,5% percent behind terraforming and it came to as a something of a shock to me that there are many people (any even) who are against the idea. Simply put while microbial Martian life, if it exists, can be valuable and should be studied for possible gains (and risks) it hardly deserves to keep sentient beings cramped on a single plant just so these microbes could be given a chance to, maybe, evolve into something interesting in a billion years. Especially when Earthbased life is so impossibly complex and diverse, just imagine how many endangered species could be saved if we gave them huge habitats on an alien world. To me that is much nobler then leaving pristine but barren worlds.

So I say terraform soon and terraform much, what do you guys think?
I think before any of that comes: "learn how to terraform". It could take a while.
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  #274  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:08 PM
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I think before any of that comes: "learn how to terraform". It could take a while.
Details, details.
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  #275  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:11 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Monozygotic twins are fascinating.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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