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  #11151  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:57 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
1) Before I answer, I have to confirm that we've always had some level of antisemitism in America.

2) I also have to confirm I have no valuable information and am just guessing.


But that being said? I think there's an interaction between historically European and historically American reactionary elements, and the former is impacting the latter more than I realized.

(I also suspect that modern American Protestantism is gradually becoming less influential on American Conservatives, with secondary effects such as a decrease in support for zionism on religious-moral grounds.)

EDIT: Oh, plus the recent surge in ISOLATIONISM. Isolationism allows us to write off the entire Middle East as not-my-interest, so that a natural hatred for Arabs and Muslims will no longer dictate a natural affinity for Jews and Israel.

EDIT EDIT: Maybe also, our juvenile entertainment used to be shows like Rugrats and The Simpsons (moderate Jewish atmosphere), and now they are shows like Family Guy (not as much)?
A couple of things. One thing I am aware of is that they did chant "You will not replace us" I've heard people saying that they've chanted "Jews will not replace us" but I haven't really seen any video confirmation, one could overhear the former as the latter.

That being said, the Anti-Semitism mainly has to do with Alt-right conspiracy theories surrounding a global Jewish conspiracy to promote Communism (Jewish Bolshevism), race mixing, and the destruction of the white race.

The second is that Isolationism in the US isn't very new, it's fairly old actually. The US wasn't interventionist until WW II and even then it took Pearl Harbour (a misplay by Japanese diplomats) to get it going. That it's seen a resurgence isn't surprising. Part of the reason people liked Ron Paul back in the day was exactly that reason.
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  #11152  
Old 09-13-2017, 03:03 PM
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A couple of things. One thing I am aware of is that they did chant "You will not replace us" I've heard people saying that they've chanted "Jews will not replace us" but I haven't really seen any video confirmation, one could overhear the former as the latter.
Here you go.
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  #11153  
Old 09-13-2017, 06:45 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Supporting Israel is more of a foreign policy position than a religious one. As a powerful and stable middle eastern nation it is the best ally we have in the region. They share a lot of intelligence and technology with us. Muslim jihadists hate Israel for being Jewish and they hate the US for being the cultural super power. We have a common cause.

Liberals don't like Israel because it is western and they fetishize non-western things for some reason. Israel also refuses to be the victim.
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  #11154  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:03 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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That being said, the Anti-Semitism mainly has to do with Alt-right conspiracy theories surrounding a global Jewish conspiracy to promote Communism (Jewish Bolshevism), race mixing, and the destruction of the white race.
See, that kind of verbiage just rings as European in origin. We've had those ideas in the U.S. too, but the roots are different.

In the U.S., anti-semitism had less of a link to racism (American Jews were white men who were divided on slavery along the north-south, just like most other whites) or to anti-Bolshevism (there were some connections, but Joseph McCarthy himself had two Jews on his staff).

Instead, it had more of a link to 20th century Nativism (against immigrants from southern and eastern Europe, who were often Catholic or Jewish) and early Protestant fundamentalism (American non-Protestants were typically Catholics or Jews). There is some overlap with early American anti-communism, but the pillars were still Nativism and Fundamentalism.

You can look to the history of the Ku Klux Klan, which wasn't visibly anti-semitic in its first incarnation and only adopted anti-semitism alongside anti-catholicism as part of a Nativism movement in the early 20th century.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

Oh, and of course you had the Civil Rights Era, where a number of Jewish freedom riders and activists were killed for being "nigger-lovers". An example being Jews (racially, anyway) Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner being killed alongside black man James Chaney, as depicted in the film Mississippi Burning.

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The second is that Isolationism in the US isn't very new, it's fairly old actually. The US wasn't interventionist until WW II and even then it took Pearl Harbour (a misplay by Japanese diplomats) to get it going. That it's seen a resurgence isn't surprising. Part of the reason people liked Ron Paul back in the day was exactly that reason.
Right, American interventionism is fairly modern.

EDIT: (Except for the Western Hemisphere. That's been Mare Nostrum for a while.)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-13-2017 at 07:29 PM..
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  #11155  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:17 PM
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Right, American interventionism is fairly modern.
What are your thoughts on the Barbary wars? Monroe Doctrine? Admiral Perry and Japan? The usurpation of Hawaii?
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  #11156  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:25 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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What are your thoughts on the Barbary wars? Monroe Doctrine? Admiral Perry and Japan? The usurpation of Hawaii?

Monroe Doctrine
You beat me to my edit!

Imperialism and expansionism? Always. Screwing around to help some country beat another, outside the Western Hemisphere? Mehh, less common.
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  #11157  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:28 PM
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You beat me to my edit!

Imperialism and expansionism? Always. Screwing around to help some country beat another, outside the Western Hemisphere? Mehh, less common.
Alright that's fair. Though I'd say its a bit more complex than helping one beat another, we set up quite a few civil wars
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  #11158  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:35 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Alright that's fair. Though I'd say its a bit more complex than helping one beat another, we set up quite a few civil wars
Sure. And of course, back in those days "isolationism" meant not taking sides when the European Great Powers fought each other (unless we wanted to invade Canada or something).

That context was a world where Britain, France, and Germany periodically clashed over their world empires. That hasn't been the world since 1945.
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  #11159  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:55 PM
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Sure. And of course, back in those days "isolationism" meant not taking sides when the European Great Powers fought each other (unless we wanted to invade Canada or something).

That context was a world where Britain, France, and Germany periodically clashed over their world empires. That hasn't been the world since 1945.
Exactly! That's why when a lot of the narrative in school around Ww1 and ww2 is framed like we just wanted to keep to ourselves and we'd not interacted with other countries it never sits right with me. We were all over the place even prior to those wars, we just got more direct over time.
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  #11160  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:41 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
1) Before I answer, I have to confirm that we've always had some level of antisemitism in America.

2) I also have to confirm I have no valuable information and am just guessing.


But that being said? I think there's an interaction between historically European and historically American reactionary elements, and the former is impacting the latter more than I realized.

(I also suspect that modern American Protestantism is gradually becoming less influential on American Conservatives, with secondary effects such as a decrease in support for zionism on religious-moral grounds.)

EDIT: Oh, plus the recent surge in ISOLATIONISM. Isolationism allows us to write off the entire Middle East as not-my-interest, so that a natural hatred for Arabs and Muslims will no longer dictate a natural affinity for Jews and Israel.

EDIT EDIT: Maybe also, our juvenile entertainment used to be shows like Rugrats and The Simpsons (moderate Jewish atmosphere), and now they are shows like Family Guy (not as much)?
Wouldn't it stand to argue that American antisemitism was at its highest during Charles Lindbergh's time (1920s-1930s) and gradually decreased over the next 80-90 years until it began to rise again? The support of Israel is primarily a neocon thing as you will note that Ron Paul was pretty neutral on it (he's the biggest non-neocon to have served in the government for quite some time).

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Supporting Israel is more of a foreign policy position than a religious one. As a powerful and stable middle eastern nation it is the best ally we have in the region. They share a lot of intelligence and technology with us. Muslim jihadists hate Israel for being Jewish and they hate the US for being the cultural super power. We have a common cause.

Liberals don't like Israel because it is western and they fetishize non-western things for some reason. Israel also refuses to be the victim.
I have to disagree with all of that. It is both a religious position and foreign policy one. Many Protestant groups are staunch supporters of Israel on religious grounds. Islamic groups are against Israel based on their control of the region, it is not religious. You could have Indians occupy it and Islamic groups would dislike it.
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  #11161  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:08 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Wouldn't it stand to argue that American antisemitism was at its highest during Charles Lindbergh's time (1920s-1930s) and gradually decreased over the next 80-90 years until it began to rise again? The support of Israel is primarily a neocon thing as you will note that Ron Paul was pretty neutral on it (he's the biggest non-neocon to have served in the government for quite some time).
Yeah, I'm not giving enough credit to the era of Henry Ford and Father Coughlin (Yankee and Canadian scum, amirite?).

But still. History may not have been fun for the Jews in America or the blacks in Europe, but it was generally better than the other way around...

EDIT: When you go to wikipedia's article on the history of antisemitism in the U.S., you find this image of an "anti-semitic cartoon".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist..._United_States


Now you find me an anti-black racist cartoon that depicts the black person as fleeing a figure of "Persecution" and then holding a paper representing "Perseverance and Industry". (Shucks, it even has the Atlantic Ocean parted Moses-style! I give this a "D" in anti-semitism and command it to try harder.)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-13-2017 at 09:21 PM..
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  #11162  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:16 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Yeah, I'm not giving enough credit to the era of Henry Ford and Father Coughlin (Yankee and Canadian scum, amirite?).

But still. History may not have been fun for the Jews in America or the blacks in Europe, but it was generally better than the other way around...

EDIT: When you go to wikipedia's article on the history of antisemitism in the U.S., you find this image of an "anti-semitic cartoon".


Now you find me an anti-black racist cartoon that depicts the black person as fleeing a figure of "Persecution" and then holding a paper representing "Perseverance and Industry". (Shucks, it even has the Atlantic Ocean parted Moses-style! I give this a "D" in anti-semitism and command it to try harder.)
I'm more asking why you thought it died out and why you think its returning.
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  #11163  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:54 AM
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So I'll honestly say the Charlottesville incident surprised me in that the perpetrators were so antisemitic, as opposed to racist. They were more... "neonazi" and less "neoconfederate". For me, it automatically triggers suspicions of foreign cultural nfluence. "Unamerican" bigotry instead of good ol' fashioned USA bigotry.
Note on terminology: Antisemiticism is racism, as Semitic does broadly (and ethnically) speaking refer to Jews, Arabs, and other Semitic peoples. Anti-Judaism is the more specific term, though these terms do tend to be linked.
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  #11164  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:36 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Some of this from the Feminism thread...

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I am not sure what were you trying to convey here. That slavery was widespread all across the world until the modern era?
Well, I just Googled "Romanian slavery" and learned something new. I'd expected to find stuff more along the lines of Russia's serfdom. (In my schools, serfdom was taught as Russia's equivalent to slavery. We didn't get to other Eastern Europe analogues.)

Your unspoken question? No, I'm not convinced Romania benefitted from Western Europe's African colonization and slave trade.

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I don't think people understand that Romania was the conquered and not the conqueror. This is what happens when people are taught that everything is white people's fault. History is generally a lot more complex than that and not everything is the result of racial persecution.
Sure. At that time Romania wasn't independent yet. But it was still Gypsies being enslaved.

(I refuse to call them Roma and Romani, because there are way too many "Rom" demonyms. I won't do it for the Byzantines either. Romania gets a pass for being a nation-state. )

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I'm more asking why you thought it died out and why you think its returning.
Ford shut down his paper in 1927 and apologized, after getting backlash. Coughlin was pressured by the government until being forced off the air in 1939, before WWII started in Europe. Lindbergh was famous for his isolationism at Germany's actions (and it seems he blamed interventionist thought on the British, the Jews, and Roosevelt), but he'd also disclaimer that he didn't support Germaany's Jewish policies. The KKK kept being the KKK, but all of their other bigotries have always been secondary to their anti-black fervor.

I have no idea why it's returning like this. I've grown up in Southeast Texas hearing various bigoted thoughts and slogans, and reading about others in modern American history.

When you tell me that American Southern White Power groups have gathered to protest a statue of Robert E. Lee being taken down, and you tell me they are chanting a phrase, my first guess for that phrase was NOT going to be, "Jews will not replace us." Again, it surprised me.

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Note on terminology: Antisemiticism is racism, as Semitic does broadly (and ethnically) speaking refer to Jews, Arabs, and other Semitic peoples. Anti-Judaism is the more specific term, though these terms do tend to be linked.
I'm guilty of furthering the imprecise definition. It doesn't help that Nazi Germany is our hallmark for antisemitism, yet they used a racial definition that excluded Arabs (who counted as honorary Aryans).
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  #11165  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:47 AM
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Your unspoken question? No, I'm not convinced Romania benefitted from Western Europe's African colonization and slave trade.
I'm not referring to just the colonial era and slave trade, I'm referring to modern times as well where large parts of the world are still used for cheap labor and enormous ecological damage is done for cheap profit.

People in sweat-shops make the chips for our computers. Our clothes. Child slavery's still involved in a lot of chocolate production (though that's decreasing).

The entire western world benefits from this. It's not about singling out Romania no matter how much Smoke wants to make it out like I'm personally attacking his home.
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  #11166  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:18 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'm not referring to just the colonial era and slave trade, I'm referring to modern times as well where large parts of the world are still used for cheap labor and enormous ecological damage is done for cheap profit.

People in sweat-shops make the chips for our computers. Our clothes. Child slavery's still involved in a lot of chocolate production (though that's decreasing).

The entire western world benefits from this. It's not about singling out Romania no matter how much Smoke wants to make it out like I'm personally attacking his home.
You are acting as if only the western world benefits from this, and as if there was no exploitation within its own boundaries. The only major difference is that our workforce is protected by the law, and even then, it is not as much as it should be. Not our fault these governments do not protect their people.

The humans are not a pleasant people. It does not matter where you come from, what skin color do you have, what god do you revere, it is in our nature to exploit and dominate others for personal gain. That's how it is. Want to fight it? Fine, but then do it a case per case basis, by yourself. Do not make sweeping charges, do not point fingers in general ways, and do not force people to follow you, do it yourself and hope more will join you.
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  #11167  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:05 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Ford shut down his paper in 1927 and apologized, after getting backlash. Coughlin was pressured by the government until being forced off the air in 1939, before WWII started in Europe. Lindbergh was famous for his isolationism at Germany's actions (and it seems he blamed interventionist thought on the British, the Jews, and Roosevelt), but he'd also disclaimer that he didn't support Germaany's Jewish policies. The KKK kept being the KKK, but all of their other bigotries have always been secondary to their anti-black fervor.

I have no idea why it's returning like this. I've grown up in Southeast Texas hearing various bigoted thoughts and slogans, and reading about others in modern American history.

When you tell me that American Southern White Power groups have gathered to protest a statue of Robert E. Lee being taken down, and you tell me they are chanting a phrase, my first guess for that phrase was NOT going to be, "Jews will not replace us." Again, it surprised me.
In what way does it surprise you? Are there any reasons you think it's returning?
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  #11168  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:07 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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In what way does it surprise you? Are there any reasons you think it's returning?
I... think I've thrown my thoughts on the table. I'm not sure I have anything different to add.
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  #11169  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You are acting as if only the western world benefits from this, and as if there was no exploitation within its own boundaries. The only major difference is that our workforce is protected by the law, and even then, it is not as much as it should be. Not our fault these governments do not protect their people.

The humans are not a pleasant people. It does not matter where you come from, what skin color do you have, what god do you revere, it is in our nature to exploit and dominate others for personal gain. That's how it is. Want to fight it? Fine, but then do it a case per case basis, by yourself. Do not make sweeping charges, do not point fingers in general ways, and do not force people to follow you, do it yourself and hope more will join you.
I feel like some people think every non-white race was just a bunch of peaceful hippies or something that white people came and introduced every problem to. Adam Smith did a better job at explaining why some countries were wealthier than others than this does. It is a much more logical and sensible explanation.
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  #11170  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:08 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I... think I've thrown my thoughts on the table. I'm not sure I have anything different to add.
I'm not entirely sure, but I think he wants you to admit one of two things:
a) The Jews run the media/world/reptilian-overlords but a small minority of woke alt-knights are exposing them to the populace.
b) Trying to teach people to not be racist actually makes them want to commit genocide against Jews.
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  #11171  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:03 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'm not entirely sure, but I think he wants you to admit one of two things:
a) The Jews run the media/world/reptilian-overlords but a small minority of woke alt-knights are exposing them to the populace.
b) Trying to teach people to not be racist actually makes them want to commit genocide against Jews.
I mean...

a) People who believe this think it's been the case for centuries. What's changed now?

b) This only adds to my confusion, because here in the U.S. we've been drilled to not be racist against blacks. And recently, Arabs and Hispanics. But Jews? They're kind of on the periphery. There's a good chance for them to be seen as whites, so race isn't the immediate thought.

If Bernie Sanders had been elected president somehow, would Americans have considered him the second non-white president? I have doubts.
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  #11172  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:08 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I mean...

a) People who believe this think it's been the case for centuries. What's changed now?

b) This only adds to my confusion, because here in the U.S. we've been drilled to not be racist against blacks. And recently, Arabs and Hispanics. But Jews? They're kind of on the periphery. There's a good chance for them to be seen as whites, so race isn't the immediate thought.

If Bernie Sanders had been elected president somehow, would Americans have considered him the second non-white president? I have doubts.
I don't know. I just keep hearing that trying to encourage people not to be dicks to each other because of their race/color/creed/etc is what causednazis to become nearly mainstream again. I don't get it, either.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:42 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I don't know. I just keep hearing that trying to encourage people not to be dicks to each other because of their race/color/creed/etc is what causednazis to become nearly mainstream again. I don't get it, either.
Well, I do KINDA get it. But that was Europe. German Nazis were told not to be dicks, especially to Jews. Americans were told not to be dicks, especially to blacks.

"Grackle, you already said this like twelve times! We know your opinion!"

Okay, okay! I just felt like this was...


Heh. Adam Sandler is so white.
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  #11174  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:49 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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I... think I've thrown my thoughts on the table. I'm not sure I have anything different to add.
You must have some thoughts on the reasons why. You're a smart guy and I want to know what you think beyond what you've said.
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  #11175  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:57 PM
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You must have some thoughts on the reasons why. You're a smart guy and I want to know what you think beyond what you've said.
Yeah Grackle I think Kakwakas might be on the money with this one... that's a dogwhistle if I ever saw one.


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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
You are acting as if only the western world benefits from this, and as if there was no exploitation within its own boundaries.

The only major difference is that our workforce is protected by the law, and even then, it is not as much as it should be. Not our fault these governments do not protect their people.

The humans are not a pleasant people. It does not matter where you come from, what skin color do you have, what god do you revere, it is in our nature to exploit and dominate others for personal gain. That's how it is.

Want to fight it? Fine, but then do it a case per case basis, by yourself.

Do not make sweeping charges, do not point fingers in general ways, and

do not force people to follow you,

do it yourself and hope more will join you.

1. No I'm not. That's an assumption others are making.

2. I think that ignores the culpability of our populations in shaping the laws and policies of the companies based in our nations.

3. I disagree.

4. No.

5. I'm not pointing a finger at all. I don't know how many times I have to say that before it sticks.

6. I'm not.

7. I am.
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