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  #7051  
Old Yesterday, 05:31 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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it's too bad blizzard's writing quality has declined over the years as much as it has
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #7052  
Old Yesterday, 11:08 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I wouldn't be talking about credibility if I took a toxic meme created by stitching a few unrelated images taken out of context together at face value, but hey, each to their own.

Still, it's just both so incredibly amusing and sad at the same that people still fall for this "Thrall was Metzen's self-insert" meme, even though we've known for years that Furion was Metzen's favorite Warcraft III character and that he 's always mained human paladins, and it's now even sadder since thanks John Staats' World of Warcraft Dev Diary, we know Metzen was one of the few Alliance favoring developers amongst the Classic World of Warcraft development team (who were all Horde favoring because they saw the Horde as the evil faction and evil is cooler). I suppose people can't live without scapegoatism.
In fairness, I think people got that impression because Metzen once said "my heart lies with the Horde" in an interview.

http://web.archive.org/web/201209181...ed-at-blizzcon

Though yeah, I think people are mishandling the "self-insert" meme to a certain degree. A self-insert is an original character created specifically by the person they're inserting themselves in. I think a more appropriate word is something like author's pet, which is more of a character that the authors take a favoritism or liking to.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Oh, they exist too, but they seem mostly focused on trolling night elf players in their own faction rather than defending Sylvanas out of any earnest belief that she's actually virtuous and in the right. Their "arguments" seem to boil down to the night elves having it coming basically for being night elves, rather than it being particularly relevant that Sylvanas is the particular person who's burning their tree and ravaging their lands.
I've never really seen any Human Paladin posters go after and attack Night Elf players or demean their losses in any way. The most I've seen is them be exasperated by Night Elf fans complaining about the overt human focus the Alliance is always handed and usually I see Night Elf players attacking Humans more. (Mainly in the vein of "I really hate being Alliance, it sucks here, I wish we had been neutral, humans suck, etc.)

Then again since my suspension from shitposting I've been visiting the forums less.
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  #7053  
Old Today, 12:30 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
In fairness, I think people got that impression because Metzen once said "my heart lies with the Horde" in an interview.

http://web.archive.org/web/201209181...ed-at-blizzcon
First of all, that has nothing to do with self-inserting, nor does it excuse scapegoating. Second, context. He said while explaining the movie (the version at the time) would be Alliance-centric, assuring the fans his heart also lies with the Horde.
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  #7054  
Old Today, 01:00 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Still, it's just both so incredibly amusing and sad at the same that people still fall for this "Thrall was Metzen's self-insert" meme, even though we've known for years that Furion was Metzen's favorite Warcraft III character and that he 's always mained human paladins, and it's now even sadder since thanks John Staats' World of Warcraft Dev Diary, we know Metzen was one of the few Alliance favoring developers amongst the Classic World of Warcraft development team (who were all Horde favoring because they saw the Horde as the evil faction and evil is cooler). I suppose people can't live without scapegoatism.
Here's the thing. Thrall is clearly a messianic character, and I certainly think Metzen put A LOT of himself into Thrall (the beard, the attitude, the "Thunder God" aspect -- Thrall borrows a lot from Thor aesthetically). But... I don't think that makes him a bad character. I don't LIKE Thrall overall, but not because I think he's a total self-insert, but just because he was SO flatly written almost for the entirety of WoW. The lost-boy aspiring to redeem his people aspect of Reign of Chaos was totally lost, and they didn't really replace it with... anything. And there was no one to really challenge him, but I don't think that was METZEN necessarily.

And Nathanos... eh? Even if he is based on the narrative lead or whatever, other than arbitrarily taking on Tyrande and holding his own -- Nathanos has always been Sylvanas's waifu, and I kinda like that he's been showing up consistently. He's a pretty threatening presence in the Horde's ranks. That really gives a face to the Forsaken in general and diversifies the race a little bit. Plus his voice is cool, he's kinda snarky and he gets some good lines.

I'm still just ticked off at the treatment of a lot of the female characters more than anything in WoW. I haven't done the Jaina storyline from BfA yet, the cutscenes didn't... impress me all that much, but I'd like to actually do it because it at least looks better than how her MoP arc ended.

I'm still just so disappointed at how Tyrande's been handled in 8.1. But they've never known how to do it.

With the Undead Night Elves being loyal to the Forsaken, they unfortunately have a lot of bad solutions.

1) The Undead faction just doesn't raise the dead. Which... I dunno, that seems wrong to me.

2) Implicate a time skip where the people they're raising are indoctrinated and persuaded to join the Forsaken in Orgrimmar or something. This is... not much better than what they did.

3) The Forsaken mind controls people. Which... is fitting, but kind of goes against their modus operandi to a degree I suppose.

I think we just have to assume that the three different Deathknell scenarios happen on a macro level. But I understand why that might be distasteful/lazy to some people. I just... don't think there's a good alternative that works in a narrative sense.

Also having said all this, I think in terms of sheer narrative, World of WarCraft: Battle for Azeroth overall is the best the game's been since Mists of Pandaria. The narrative is constantly moving, the setpieces are all really interesting (breaking into the Stockades, the Battle for Lordaeron, the War of Thorns) a clear and concise main, core cast.

I have a lot of issues with it, A LOT -- and I'm not gonna say I love it (I really don't), but objectively it's pretty consistent and solid.
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  #7055  
Old Today, 01:55 AM
rshll rshll is offline

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Why do you complain. It used to be one quest per week with no cinematics nor important lore figures in a patch. Now they give us several stories with cinematics and it looks like it's not enough. Yes, the story is not perfect but isn't it better than nothing? Is this mmochampion?
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  #7056  
Old Today, 02:37 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
With the Undead Night Elves being loyal to the Forsaken, they unfortunately have a lot of bad solutions.

1) The Undead faction just doesn't raise the dead. Which... I dunno, that seems wrong to me.

2) Implicate a time skip where the people they're raising are indoctrinated and persuaded to join the Forsaken in Orgrimmar or something. This is... not much better than what they did.

3) The Forsaken mind controls people. Which... is fitting, but kind of goes against their modus operandi to a degree I suppose.

I think we just have to assume that the three different Deathknell scenarios happen on a macro level. But I understand why that might be distasteful/lazy to some people. I just... don't think there's a good alternative that works in a narrative sense.
Yeah, it's almost like...raising more people in undeath is a really bad thing to be doing in every conceivable way or something.

Why, it's like as soon as the undead start raising more undead to kill their enemies, they're effectively the Scourge. Because from an objective standpoint an undead faction that's raising more undead for the purpose of killing and raising the living as more undead to kill more living and raise more undead, and so on and so forth, is the Scourge.

Last edited by ARM3481; Today at 02:42 AM..
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  #7057  
Old Today, 04:15 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Here's the thing. Thrall is clearly a messianic character, and I certainly think Metzen put A LOT of himself into Thrall (the beard, the attitude, the "Thunder God" aspect -- Thrall borrows a lot from Thor aesthetically). But... I don't think that makes him a bad character. I don't LIKE Thrall overall, but not because I think he's a total self-insert, but just because he was SO flatly written almost for the entirety of WoW. The lost-boy aspiring to redeem his people aspect of Reign of Chaos was totally lost, and they didn't really replace it with... anything. And there was no one to really challenge him, but I don't think that was METZEN necessarily.
You could say the very same about a large number of characters. Uther from Warcraft II looks like a copy of young Metzen, the Silver Hand bears many pseudo-nordic allusions, and the paladins love their hammers. Now, what sort of character does Metzen main? Oh, right, a human paladin.

Furthermore, half these things you mention do not apply for the RTS era. When developing Warcraft III, Metzen had no beard, his attitude was merely an act, and the Doomhammer was a rather late addition to his character (In Adventures, he wielded the axe of his father, possibly the very same axe he wielded in the early Warcraft III renders).

Finally, the whole Thrall-Metzen self-insert "theories" only started appearing with Cataclysm, and his Metzen-eque appearance got evident only with Warlords of Draenor. If a character starts looking like a self-insert over a decade after its conception, chances are he is not a self-insert, but people seeking to find something that does not exist.
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  #7058  
Old Today, 04:23 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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First of all, that has nothing to do with self-inserting, nor does it excuse scapegoating.
I was not insinuating either of these in my post.
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  #7059  
Old Today, 04:31 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by rshll View Post
Why do you complain. It used to be one quest per week with no cinematics nor important lore figures in a patch. Now they give us several stories with cinematics and it looks like it's not enough. Yes, the story is not perfect but isn't it better than nothing? Is this mmochampion?
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  #7060  
Old Today, 11:17 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by rshll View Post
Why do you complain. It used to be one quest per week with no cinematics nor important lore figures in a patch. Now they give us several stories with cinematics and it looks like it's not enough. Yes, the story is not perfect but isn't it better than nothing? Is this mmochampion?
Because I'm a fan of the franchise and if they're going to improve the game from a technological perspective, I'm gonna criticise them for not writing it well when I think they're making mistakes.

Though a lot of the plot issues go back to how crummy Founding of Durotar and Wrath of the Lich King's last act were.

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Yeah, it's almost like...raising more people in undeath is a really bad thing to be doing in every conceivable way or something.

Why, it's like as soon as the undead start raising more undead to kill their enemies, they're effectively the Scourge. Because from an objective standpoint an undead faction that's raising more undead for the purpose of killing and raising the living as more undead to kill more living and raise more undead, and so on and so forth, is the Scourge.
I'm talking about non-diagetically. You have your sinister undead faction raising free-willed undead to bolster their armies. How do you reconce them serving the people who killed them? There's just no elegant way to do it short of having them not do it, but that just seems lame to me.

Like, ARM I'm not sure you even read my post properly here tbh. Or maybe I didn't communicate properly.

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You could say the very same about a large number of characters. Uther from Warcraft II looks like a copy of young Metzen, the Silver Hand bears many pseudo-nordic allusions, and the paladins love their hammers. Now, what sort of character does Metzen main? Oh, right, a human paladin.

Furthermore, half these things you mention do not apply for the RTS era. When developing Warcraft III, Metzen had no beard, his attitude was merely an act, and the Doomhammer was a rather late addition to his character (In Adventures, he wielded the axe of his father, possibly the very same axe he wielded in the early Warcraft III renders).
Metzen wrote WC3. He didn't write WC2. I feel it's pretty obvious Metzen put a lot of himself into Thrall. I'm not even saying it's some juvenile self-insert fantasy thing, but he CLEARLY put a lot of himself into Thrall.

Anyway, that wasn't even my point. My point was: "who cares if he did?". Thrall in WC3 is naive and innocent, he has an objective, he's a fine protagonist. And good writers often do put pieces of themselves or their experiences into their writing. That's what grounds it, makes it relatable.
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