Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 07-31-2018, 11:11 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,782

Night Elf Icon (War3)

You're right that the night elf plays second fiddle in this short, but why you felt like you had to bring up human fans is nebulous to me.

Delaryn could have had her heroic last stand, and it would not have any effect on the reclaimation of Lordaeron at all. In fact, human fans would be just as delighted by the act as night elf fans.

Maybe focus more on the actual reason why she is represented the way she is. That she is meant to be the night elven mirror image of Sylvanas; The elvish ranger captain who failed to protect her kingdom from undead monsters. And maybe then you'll see that night elves are actually portrayed favourably; in her last moments, Delaryn was stronger than Sylvanas.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-01-2018, 04:19 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
You're right that the night elf plays second fiddle in this short, but why you felt like you had to bring up human fans is nebulous to me.

Delaryn could have had her heroic last stand, and it would not have any effect on the reclaimation of Lordaeron at all. In fact, human fans would be just as delighted by the act as night elf fans.

Maybe focus more on the actual reason why she is represented the way she is. That she is meant to be the night elven mirror image of Sylvanas; The elvish ranger captain who failed to protect her kingdom from undead monsters. And maybe then you'll see that night elves are actually portrayed favourably; in her last moments, Delaryn was stronger than Sylvanas.
I noticed that you had a comment in there saying that another outcome would have delighted human fans as well as Night Elf fans, and I can't help but to see this as thinking that my intent is to blame or denigrate human fans - it's not. I brought up human fans for the same reason I have often referred to the Burning of Teldrassil as a "throwaway parity event". It underlines that the story wasn't concerned with the Night Elves except for how it could use them as plot devices for someone else's story. In this case, as disposable sympathetic victims - and nothing more.

Which is the role that Delaryn played. Now, I did allow for the recovery of some points on the scale of relatedness because of the things she said, but the image we have of her for the almost the entirety of the cinematic does not stray from her status as a big-eyed crying victim. She is the titular dog for Sylvanas to kick, something intended to demonstrate that she's well over the moral event horizon now.
__________________

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 08-01-2018 at 04:33 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-02-2018, 01:48 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

Time-Lost Proto Nerd
Insane Guy of Doom's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 9,955

Default

Kyalin, you'll want to read this. WoWhead got an early copy of Elegy/A Good War and raved about it's portrayal of night elves, saying that's is almost completely different take than how it's portrayed in game. Here's the most relevant part, but I recommend reading the whole article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perculia
As a Night Elf main for over 10 years, reading about the defense filled my heart with pride…and the ending with the evacuations was very difficult to read. I was disappointed that Warbringers: Sylvanas essentially hijacked a major lore point for the Night Elves and turned it into a cipher for the Sylvanas-as-Arthas metaphor, as the deaths of Varian, Vol’jin, and Ysera focused on their subjects with the proper weight.

Reading about the Night Elf defense and the elaborate strategy that went into their skirmishes shows that they are skilled fighters and made the best of terrible odds, while in-game they seem a bit weaker and disorganized. It’s made clear in the novella that they realize they hardly have any chance of winning from the very start, and do everything they can to buy time for their people to evacuate to Stormwind. There’s a striking contrast between the Night Elves trying to save as many of their people, while Syvlanas may be concerned about taking over land, but doesn’t have the same connection or concern for the well-being of her inhabitants.

Tyrande doesn’t simply vanish as well. In-game, her absence can look like she abandoned her people. However, she first travels to Stormwind to help plan the apparent-attack on Silithus, then once the evacuations start, she remains in Stormwind to oversee the refugees as she knows that is important for morale. She does pay one last visit to Darnassus and then prays to Elune to find Malfurion—an act which stills Saurfang’s blade and lets her escape.




The ending is heartwrenching—reading about the cries of the Night Elves burned alive, the destruction of the Temple of the Moon and the iconic statue crumbling, the cries of the prisoners in Darkshore watching their families burn before them. As Astarri stays behind to take care of those who could not escape, I was reminded of the mother and infant paralleling the two moons of Elune, the Lady, and Child.

While Warbringers: Sylvanas depicted the Burning of Teldrassil, it was used partially as a framing device for Sylvanas’ character, to draw parallels between her and Arthas. The additional details in the novella, while dark and difficult to read, provided the proper weight and gravity for the victims of the burning.

Throughout the novella, we have lyrics to the Elegy of Darnassus interspersed between chapters. They show up at the start of each chapter, and then Astarri and Tyrande sing verses at the very end. Wouldn't it be amazing if this was turned into a song which we later saw NPCs singing, as well as the music to a cinematic, like Warbringers: Jaina?

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 08-02-2018 at 01:51 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-02-2018, 06:50 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Kyalin, you'll want to read this. WoWhead got an early copy of Elegy/A Good War and raved about it's portrayal of night elves, saying that's is almost completely different take than how it's portrayed in game. Here's the most relevant part, but I recommend reading the whole article.
I did take the time to read that article, but it doesn't change my score.

The game is the central product, it's the thing that most people see, and it's the most context-rich of the media used. You use your eyes, your ears, and you are made to feel certain things as well through the use of ludo narrative - the mission where you're not able to evacuate civilians is a good example of that.

It's also not as though Blizzard doesn't take the time to show us what they feel is important. When they wanted to show us, for example, that the attack on Lordaeron was extremely costly, they made it a point to include sequences of failed attacks like the one on the wall that Sylvanas replies to with plague, as well as the rows of coffins that they didn't have to include but included anyway on the dock leading back into Stormwind.

To the extent that things are not shown in game, I don't see those calls as mistakes, I see them as intentional choices, and it matters to me what they choose to show me and what they choose to hide. So if they choose to hide it, I will not consider it, or I will seriously impair my consideration of it. It's not acceptable to tell me one thing in the game, and expect me to dive into a book, or into a wiki, or to develop an elaborate game theory to find the truth of the matter.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-02-2018, 08:35 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,262
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

So you're analyzing the game product World of Warcraft, not the story of Warcraft.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-02-2018, 10:39 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Eternal
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,620

Default

Delaryn couldn't strike at Sylvanas. She couldn't even stand up straight. She could barely turn her head!
__________________
Daelin was right.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-02-2018, 12:14 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Orb of Venom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
So you're analyzing the game product World of Warcraft, not the story of Warcraft.
I was going to say something, but this guy put it better:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20766807288

To this:

Quote:
Delaryn couldn't strike at Sylvanas. She couldn't even stand up straight. She could barely turn her head!
The character of Jack Dawson in Titanic didn't have to die, or so some have claimed. As the argument goes, that door totally should have been able to accommodate both people. Now, people disagree on this, and I'm sure countless pages have been written explaining the physical nature and bouyancy of an early 20th century door that may have been used on the White Star liner.

The argument will never be resolved, but even if that door could accommodate them both, Jack DID have to die, because that's the emotional punch of the story. It's what gives meaning to all of those scenes of water crashing into the first class ballroom and sweeping people away, and of Febricio getting crushed by a smokestack, and the engine room men getting trapped in the bulkheads, and the mother reading her children their last bedtime story, and the guy with the whistle desperately trying to call back the boats. We follow Jack because Jack is the representative and metaphor for those people. He is them, and when we watch his body forever slip into the black abyss, we are confronted with the depth of the tragedy, in a way that those earlier scenes couldn't do on their own.

Who then is Dalaryn? Delaryn is the Night Elves. It would not matter to me if she was encased to the neck in cement because it's the narrative choice I am upset with. I said I would use Lordaeron as a benchmark, because Lordaeron is portrayed as a spirited defense that exacts horrific casualties on the Alliance, and that choice preserves the idea that the Horde, especially the Forsaken, remain a powerful threat. The War of the Thorns, meanwhile, is a tragedy, and if you main a Night Elf, it is punctuated with "this is you".

Obviously you can tell that I really like Titanic. I don't have an issue with tragedies in principle, but you may notice that they don't sell video games about it. "Schindler's List: The video game" likewise does not exist. There was no campaign option in Warcraft III to play as Sylvanas failing to defend Quel'thalas, and there isn't even a game out there where I get to play an Australian soldier during the emu war. Why? Because video games aren't meant to do that. They are meant to fill psychological desires for feelings of competence, autonomy, and relatedness. How do I know this? Because that's what the research says.

So, for an outside observer, this moment works. If you are playing a human character, you are supposed to be outraged that Sylvanas would be this heartless. If you are playing an orc, you are supposed to question what the hell you are supporting. This is a spectacularly effective moment, and if you are playing a Night Elf, well... you are supposed to feel incompetent, depressed, and meaningless - because you are.

Unfortunately as far as this thread is concerned, I intended to render an opinion about and from that last perspective, and whether it works as a way to make me, or others who share that perspective, want to pay for and play the game. That's why I gave it the rating that I did, not because I merely think it's inconsistent with what I think the character was capable of doing in that moment.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-07-2018, 08:39 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default


I have reviewed the above footage for the quest "Break Free", which I am mostly going to review for the environments. Accordingly, I will not separately review the mirrored Horde quest.

I've seen screenshots of the environment for this quest before, and I was over the moon about them. The post burning Darkshore environments retain many of the battlefronts that existed in previous world quests and seemed to imply that more forces had arrived. When we add the Lor'danel Horde into the mix, we see a situation where Horde forces are trapped in the village and are being attacked from all sides, seemingly without much hope of escape. Call it Summermoongrad - I certainly will.

I believe this to be significant because it's a strong in-game representation that the Night Elven army is not simply defeated by the time Sylvanas attacks and destroys Teldrassil - that they continue to fight, and that they push back in strong respects. Linking this up to the mission table content demonstrates even further that the Night Elves are not just destroyed by the Horde's offensive, and that Kalimdor isn't lost. It's difficult to understate how important such an inclusion is.

I do have some gripes. I don't understand how, nor do I like that the Horde managed to take over some vessels. The inclusion of the supposedly dead Delaryn Summermoon in what is supposed to be a quest taking place after Teldrassil burns is also confusing - unless she played dead for the Horde and was miraculously recovered (the Kal'dorei DO manage to retake the beach, after all).

But those gripes are minor in comparison to content that they could have simply ignored but didn't. I very much approve of what was given here.

Competence: Redeeming
Autonomy: Exceptional
Relatedness: Redeeming

The score increases to, and is finalized at 48.04.

I will cap this off with a conclusions post and a view of my spreadsheet - though I will take my time on that.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-08-2018, 08:25 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Eternal
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,620

Default

How the Horde got some vessels is explained in A Good War.

Basically as the fleet was lined up at the Zoram Strand bombarding the Horde, flammable material, magically enhanced, was catapulted into the water from the land, forming a layer of fire over the water, and a small force of Horde swam underneath the flaming layer and beyiond the line of ships, boarding the vessels from the unprotected side and seizing a few.

I found it quite clever, and the swimming distance doesn't seem too ridiculous either.
__________________
Daelin was right.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:08 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,262
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

In their version of the Battle for Lordaeron, Horde players see plenty of Night Elf presence, from sentinels, to screaming NPCs, to glaive throwers and druids.

You should analyze that.

Also, only two World Quests?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-13-2018, 07:33 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

I don’t think I will ever find a good way of writing this. I tried. I thought about Fall Gelb and how one strategic maneuver doomed the French military to 70 years of mostly unearned ridicule. I thought about running a well referenced comparison between the novels and the game material, and I tried, unsuccessfully, to find a way to concisely quote “Dentity Crisis” (you can look it up on Google) to try and open a flourishing cap-off post.

But I kept realizing that I’ve gotten sick of this. This whole thing.

Do I really want to read through two seventy page novellas that I know I’m going to hate to pick out what I’m already reading on discords and in the forums? No. Do I want to play the game to give it a chance to recover itself in a later patch? No. Do I want to keep paying attention to or discussing spoilers when I know that things can only get worse? No.

Do I want to write this post even? No.

That really, when I think about it, is the strongest incitement you can deliver about a video game. Video games are supposed to be fun, you’re not supposed to dread them, or fear reading news about them like an abused spouse waiting for the next backhand. The books don’t make me feel any better about this – in fact they make it worse because they make clear what decisions Blizzard did and didn't make when it came to portrayal - and that they either haven't learned from past years of complaints about that very thing, or they don't care.

I am not riding this train anymore. I’m done.

War of the Thorns was only concerned with Night Elves insofar as Blizzard’s requirement for a victim. It was the sacrifice of the essence of a playable race and a pillar of Warcraft III for nothing more than shock value. I will therefore give it no more of my attention, and consider my pledge to review this content fulfilled.

Here’s the spreadsheet I was working on.

__________________

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 08-13-2018 at 07:37 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:39 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

Elune
C9H20's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,069

Default

It sucks that you are leaving but I can fully understand why. I am in a similar boat. It is almost like Blizz has a preternatural ability to detect what story directions I want and like every evil genie they do the opposite. Except I wasn't so heavily involved in just one aspect of the story and so the blows for me were more spread out and the damage staggered. You took licks too but the near wipeout of night elves is a critical blow. My allegories aside, I know how it is to fall out of love with something that meant a lot, it sucks

PS. Don't forget what we discussed before, give it a good thought. And in case I don't see you again, have a nice life /kaldoreisalute
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-17-2018, 08:11 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Eternal
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,620

Default

May Elune Light your path, Kyalin Raintree.

But please, please give A Good War and Elegy a read. They're really good.
__________________
Daelin was right.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-18-2018, 12:18 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,835
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

Well, it was nice to talk to you a few more times, at least.

Take care Kyalin.
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battle for azeroth, warcraft

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.