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  #101  
Old 04-14-2017, 09:12 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I don't think you understand what nihilism is then.

Something being nihilistic does not mean that it's grim. The two words aren't even close to synonymous.

Nihilism is the idea that concepts only have power or importance because humans (well in this case sentient beings) give them power and importance not because for metaphysical reasons.

Though, to go off on a bit of a tangent, it always bothers me that it's interpreted when someone says something is 'relative' that somehow means that objectivity doesn't exist or that good and evil are meaningless concepts. Just because something being 'good' or 'bad' is relative doesn't mean constructiveness and destructiveness don't exist. It doesn't mean humanism doesn't exist.

Like, Kerrigan's whole redemption arc in WoL is basically: "The Universe says that Kerrigan will be an instrumental good guy in a big upcoming battle. If you don't try to keep her safe or if you don't like her and support her, then you suck and are wrong and are basically dooming the universe."

In that situation basically every character loses any sort of agency because the metaphysical universe at large is telling them how to feel and how to act.

HotS and LotV sort of tried to develop that a little more, but never really went very far beyond it.

I much prefer something like Grom's redemption story in WC3. Grom was a guy who was ultimately trying to do the right thing, couldn't escape his past, fell on his ass because of his own personal flaws, then when it counted he chose to do the right thing. I just find it a much more personal story. Even with all the demons and the blood addiction and whatever.

Grom's redemption story is entirely based on the fact that Grom himself WANTS to be redeemed. That he wants a better life for himself and his people. That's a more compelling/captivating motivation than the plot deciding it for him.

Kerrigan's redemption story is entirely based on the fact that other people want her to be redeemed. (And that the plot needs her to be redeemed for it to work/make sense)

Except she DID want it. She had no reason to believe Raynor would forgive her in Heart, yet she still chose to save the people of korhal. Ultimately Raynor DID get through to her and even in Heart she feels regret when she kicks the dog on Kaldir. More damningly only Raynor wanted her redeemed. With everyone else it's "we don't like you but if we don't cooperate the universe is fucked". Basically teeth clenched teamwork.

This also ties in with the fact that the Queen of blades was NOT character development but artificial change forced on her. My impression of Kerrigan was that she had an inner darkness but she was NOT a barely stable harpy. She had genuinely admirable qualities, was an idealist and even the Tarsonis thing doesn't ruin that because a.) EVERYONE in the Sons was complicit b.) Kerrigan at least felt bad about it unlike most and c.) Kerrigan not only convinced herself the protoss would kill the entire planet (they're still shrouded in mystery since biting the bullet was cut) but was acting out of misguided loyalty to a man she worshipped as a father figure. It's more of a tragedy on her part. She was NOT a bad person and her standards were there. The infestation artificially modified her personality into something else (whether by amplifying darkness within, suppressing compassion or whatever), but she did not reach where she was in BW by character development.

That's why, clunky as it was, HOTS had development. Kerrigan starts out confused. Events conspire to take what little she has left away, and she makes the decision to go to war. When she learns Raynor's alive, she starts to calm down, and after getting called out decides to, of her own volition, spare people when it's inconvenient (something most protaganists don't do in this franchise.)

Kerrigan actually EVOLVES in heart of the swarm and CHANGES as a character.

Kerrigan starts out a certain way and evolves into something different by the end. It isn't "oh, infestation brainwashes me and than randomly makes me a psychopath". You can easily claim she never really had agency in BW, since it was change that was artificially forced on her.
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  #102  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:07 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Starcraft 1 and broodwar are now free to play

I have them both from here

https://starcraft.com/en-us/
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  #103  
Old 05-02-2017, 01:26 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Wow, I haven't talked about Starcraft II since... well, since I think just after Wings of Liberty came out.

I'm currently finally playing LotV. Just got done with Shakuras (that cinematic was absolutely fantastic). Thusfar, it seems like a much better story than the other two expansions, and the campaign concepts seem a lot more natural (the war council mechanism is a pretty cool idea, and makes for some fun variation). Though from all the negativity in this thread, I guess I shouldn't be too eager


Edit 1: Hrm, okay, these purifiers seem like a very stupid idea. Plus, doesn't that break with the whole 'purity of form' thing?

Edit 2: I guess they didn't want all units to have only templar/nerazim/tal'darim versions, so they needed a fourth group (also one that came in a little earlier), but it just seems like a very unfitting concept. It's also kind of a plot hole that they didn't utilize this weapon before.

Here's an idea:
Not all protoss supported the idea of the two branches of the race uniting. When Artanis was selected as Hierarch, many of them left, to set up their own nation on distant protoss colony worlds. Their numbers include very few templar, but many judicators, which will be the source of their unit diversity. After the failed invasion of Aiur, Artanis goes to warn these secessionists before Amon fully overtakes their minds.
Adepts work great as a judicator ranged unit (with no chance of creating the production facilities for new dragoons, a new order or ranged units was needed). Mirages and Energizers could easily be fluffed for the judicators as well. The arbiter and reaver are reclassified as judicator, while the colossus becomes templar again. That would leave only the sentinel as needing a new ability. The rezzing thing doesn't fluff well, but maybe something that makes the buffs/debuffs from robotic support units slightly AoE.
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  #104  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:34 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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A unit exists for all four protoss groups in every slot, plus extras... but you only get three each, so you don't get to play with everything the protoss have.

Take the "Ranged Warrior" type: You get the Stalker for the Nerazim, the Dragoon for the Aiur protoss, and the Adept for the Purifiers.

But wait: the Purifiers also have the Instigator and the Tal'darim have the Slayer. One is an NPC, the other only shows up in co-op.

The Instigator was clearly replaced with the Adept. Like the Colossus, the Adept is a non-Purifier Purifier that you need the collector's edition to shift the skin from Aiur to Purifier. I know that they just gave a regular protoss Purifier weapons because it is early in the campaign.

More re-skins are not something that I need, but they cut a unit to make way for a similar unit just so they could have three and only three "Ranged Warrior" units.

This same system does not allow for things like Scouts, Oracles, and Disruptors.

The capital ships make it really weird. You get an Aiur-skinned carrier, a Purifier-skinned tempest, or a Tal'darim-skinned mothership. Alternate skins exist for all three units, and if they are so similar that they make you pick one, then why are all three in the multiplayer?
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  #105  
Old 05-03-2017, 01:33 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Khalai Reavers, not Judicator

I like the notion of Judicator separatists
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  #106  
Old 05-04-2017, 01:00 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Replaying a bit of the original starcraft to see what it is that I miss about the original.


Observations:

A) Man, the opening cinematic for the original starcraft was terrible. It's not only really hard to tell what's going on, but it doesn't really seem all that relevant to, well, anything.
The obvious opening cinematic for the game should have been something about the destruction of Chau Sara. Like, maybe show zerg starting to attack the barricades, then have a protoss voiceover talk about the corruption of the world and how it must be cleanced, and then a beam of light.

B) Jebus on a pogostick, this sound is glorious. The music, the voices, and the clear and iconic sounds of people dying. Seriously, isn't it weird how memorable and recognizable all the death sound effects are for the original starcraft?

C) I forgot about the pathing and unit selection limits. This is gonna take some getting used to.

D) Okay, first comparison between Starcraft and Starcraft II: The Tutorial. The Starcraft II tutorial tries to be more explicit about what exactly you need to do, but because they do it all in-universe, it feels silly and illogical. In Starcraft it is clear that the first level is just the character reviewing his skills on his own, and all the semi-tutorials after that are never acknowledged by the characters in-universe. While it still doesn't truly manage to balance the in-universe story and training in a believable way (like the warcraft III tutorial), it's a lot better.

E) If this game were made today, I could the player having some pretty big choices in the campaigns. For the Terrans, you'd pick whether to join with Raynor and defy the orders of the Confederacy, or stick with The Man and let the civilians suck up the damage. The Protoss choice is also obvious, either siding with Tassadar against the Conclave, or rejecting the Nerazim and Terrans and enforcing the status quo. Kerrigan's the only one where you'd really need to alter story bits for such a choice to fit, probably about how much humanity she retains.

F) Y'know, Arcturus Mengsk really is the most charismatic and well-spoken person you meet in the terran campaign up to that point. The humans from the cinematics are stupid jokes (They're as bad as the WoL newscasters), Duke is an A-hole, your assistant is an emotionless all-but-robot (retconned as a robot) and even Raynor, while nice, seems a bit terse and forceful.

G) Things that would never happen in a game nowadays: Giving you your first cloaking unit, and then having the very first area you fight in be covered in unavoidable detectors. Really, the entire level where you first encounter Kerrigan is something that couldn't be in Starcraft II, because the mechanism introduced in it (cloaking) is actually pretty pointless to this level.

H) Man, the scaling is off on that Norad III cinematic. Those scourges are as big as a house.

I) Another mission that would have never been done that way in a modern game: The first psi emitter mission. In this mission, you start with your outposts under attack, and the idea is that you retreat your buildings. However, nothing in the dialogue or instructions hints towards this or acknowledges it. The closest thing you get is a hint telling you about lift-off (which only a few of the buildings in those areas have.

J) One retcon that I actually do approve of is the alteration of the number of Terran worlds. In the original starcraft, it's explicitly stated that there's only thirteen, nine of which were overrun by the zerg by the end of the terran campaign. Since we know two of the planets are Umoja and Moria, that'd mean that Mengsk's glorious dominion consisted of only Braxis and Korhal, which seems way too tiny for the force it's shown to possess. Plus, no one's acting like two-thirds of humanity has been wiped out.

K) Anyone else think the background of the zerg briefing screen looks kinda... protossy?

L) Hrm, the AI of SCII is certainly a lot more... aggressive. Half the time, resource shortages seem more of a threat than the attackers.

M) Wow, I forgot just how much of the cinematics featured joke yokel stereotypes. I'm gonna have to be a lot less harsh on the starcraft II newscasters.

Quote:
But wait: the Purifiers also have the Instigator and the Tal'darim have the Slayer. One is an NPC, the other only shows up in co-op.
I was wondering what that weird stalker-like thing was that the purifiers had.

Quote:
The capital ships make it really weird. You get an Aiur-skinned carrier, a Purifier-skinned tempest, or a Tal'darim-skinned mothership. Alternate skins exist for all three units, and if they are so similar that they make you pick one, then why are all three in the multiplayer?
Yeah, that one's annoying, because it comes so late into the game that you can't even really play around with the choices anymore.



Still, even if the choice limits are a bit arbitrary and the division between groups is a bit weird, I vastly prefer this system to WoL's and HotS's unit choice systems.
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  #107  
Old 05-05-2017, 11:45 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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It's supposed to be the insides of a hive. Same for BW Ascension cinematic
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  #108  
Old 05-05-2017, 12:33 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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It's supposed to be the insides of a hive. Same for BW Ascension cinematic
Yeah, I guess. It just doesn't really look like the zerg in-game building style. The zerg structures in the game are almost entirely meat, with only the hive having some teeth-like things. Since it's all yellowy, the shapes are chitin-like and there's a big purple crystal in the corner, my mind automatically goes 'protoss'.

The zerg loss screen (damn escaping dark templar) has something similar going on, with a nuke being deployed against these giant chitin towers that look nothing like any in-game structure.
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  #109  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:01 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Yeah, I guess. It just doesn't really look like the zerg in-game building style. The zerg structures in the game are almost entirely meat, with only the hive having some teeth-like things. Since it's all yellowy, the shapes are chitin-like and there's a big purple crystal in the corner, my mind automatically goes 'protoss'.

The zerg loss screen (damn escaping dark templar) has something similar going on, with a nuke being deployed against these giant chitin towers that look nothing like any in-game structure.
Having both the protoss and the zerg use a crystal as their mission start button is kind of lazy, but I think the briefing room feels like the center shaft of a hatchery.

The defeat screen buildings are clearly queen's nests.
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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  #110  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:34 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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What revenant said. Although given how zerg buildings work it wouldnt be surprising they had absorbed a chunk of a crystal
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  #111  
Old 05-05-2017, 02:17 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Having both the protoss and the zerg use a crystal as their mission start button is kind of lazy, but I think the briefing room feels like the center shaft of a hatchery.

The defeat screen buildings are clearly queen's nests.
*facepalm* ah doi, should have seen that. The colours and lack of meat threw me off.


Episode III, Mission IV: The Hunt for Tassadar. Aldaris sents Artanis to arrest Tassadar. Since he was last seen on Char, you go there. However, it seems like, since we were here the last time, Char was turned into a TERRAN SPACE PLATFORM.
Brood War's gonna fix this one by formally introducing a space station over Char, but in this mission it's just kinda confusing.

So why did Tassadar tell Aldaris to launch a strike against a cerebrate if he knew about the void energy requirements for killing one?

Also, what was the point of that weird Ambush cinematic?

Episode III, Mission VI: Into the Darkness (the one where you recover Zeratul). This is probably the weakest mission in the original game, both from a gameplay and story perspective.
Gameplay-wise, the dang map just isn't fun. It expects you to explore every cranny to find all the units to rescue, but at the same time has a random dead end filled with a mass of zerg that's gonna murder your ass. Not to mention the burrowed infested terrans all over the place.
From a story perspective, there's a lot of weakness too. Firstly, the terrans you rescue in this mission never even acknowledge that you're a protoss, which is just weird. The map design is also created to draw attention to a limitation, with automated defenses and zerg in the same corridor without attacking one another. And why are all the Dark Templar in a tiny, locked room? Were they captured? Also, thanks for the massive chunk of random exposition, Zeratul.
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  #112  
Old 05-05-2017, 04:21 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
*facepalm* ah doi, should have seen that. The colours and lack of meat threw me off.
Remastered:



Quote:
Also, what was the point of that weird Ambush cinematic?
Most of the cinematics have nothing to do with the plot and are just units fighting units.

That one was retroactively made into Fenix dying.
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  #113  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:09 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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There was a time where it wasn't supposed to be that? I always assumed it was.
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  #114  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:26 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Remastered:
Ooh, yeah, that looks good.

Quote:
Most of the cinematics have nothing to do with the plot and are just units fighting units.

That one was retroactively made into Fenix dying.
Retroactively? It's said right in the next mission. Or do you mean that the cinematic was made independent from the story, and was made to fit afterwards?

If that's the case, I'm surprised at how well the other cinematics fit their points in the story. The destruction of The Amerigo is a little weird, but I guess the Dominion got a distress call and had no idea about the specific target or outcome of the attack.


Skipping ahead a little bit:

If the Overmind was unresponsive for a while following the death of Zasz, does that mean that the Overmind was unconscious when you slew it in the final mission (since you killed two cerebrates the previous mission)? Not many evil overlords or giant monsters are assassinated in their sleep :p

Skipping back a little bit:

So why did the Overmind need to be placed in that one temple area anyway? Relatedly, why did I need to get Khaydarin crystals from that one area? Doesn't half the protoss technology incorporate big chunks of the stuff? Couldn't I just have shoved a couple of pylons in there?

Skipping both back and ahead:

Y'know, it's kinda interesting just how little Kerrigan ends up doing in service to the Overmind. She seems to be this big deal initially, with a cerebrate created just to watch over her, being referred to as the Overmind's greatest weapon, given a fair amount of freedom and free will, etc. Yet when the time comes for the invasion of Aiur, the greatest and last challenge the zerg will face... she gets to sit it out.

Now there's two possibilities (looking solely from the perspective of the original game and perhaps Brood War):
1. The obvious plot hook one (which got used for starcraft II): Kerrigan was some sort of emergency back-up in case things went wrong during the invasion of Aiur. That could be why she can take over the swarms of dead cerebrates (note that she's not with you in the mission in which you take care of Zasz's brood. Or it could be that she only has this power if there is no Overmind above her).

2. Kerrigan was supposed to have a purpose, but it was derailed by Zeratul's assassination of Zasz. The Overmind basically just lucked into finding out the location of Aiur, so we never got to see what his actual plan was for discovering the protoss homeworld. Maybe that's what Kerrigan was supposed to do. Her psychic powers might have been sufficient to probe the mind or a templar, or interface with a specific protoss technology.

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There was a time where it wasn't supposed to be that? I always assumed it was.
Mine's got yellow, chitinous towers.
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  #115  
Old 05-05-2017, 06:00 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I was talking about Fenix death cinematic, but as revenant said, i always assumed the zerg briefing screen was the center of a hatchery. I didnt even recall the Zerg defeat screen lel.

Wasn't Kerrigan just supposed to be a "bridge" towards assimilating the protoss? If they had been able to assimilate them, then they could have probably dug onto their memories and find Aiur that way
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  #116  
Old 05-06-2017, 06:51 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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OH GODS, I REMEMBER HOW MUCH I LOATHE ARBITERS, WHY IS MY EVERY ATTACK FORCE INSTANTLY TURNED INTO STATUES. Death to the Judicators, long live the templars!

Brood War, stream of growing confusion:
-Mission I: Wait, when did the Conclave die? They were definitely still alive in the last protoss mission of the original. Also, in that game, Aiur wasn't in nearly as bad of a state (The conclave was convinced they were winning the war until fairly late in the story). Did the zerg somehow get worse when they got feral?
-Mission II: I'm confused by the warp gate. All protoss teleportation technology is an extension of Aiur's psychic field. That's why the pylons (and lorewise, nexus) are necessary, to create localize extensions of said psychic field. However, since Shakuras obviously wouldn't have this (or at least, not a psychic field connecting to Aiur) that means the Warp Gate is capable of sending you to places that don't have a psychic field. Given that the dark templar apparently have their own gates, it might even be completely independent from that field. Okay, so far, so good. That would explain what makes the warp distinct from a gateway or stargate.
However, that also makes the events of the mission not make a lot of sense. Firstly, why don't I start out at the stargate? In fact, I spend the first part of the mission moving towards the stargate, rather than away from it. Relatedly, how could the zerg have possibly taken both ends end of the warp gate without anyone noticing? There was an active refugee stream going on, that was why Fenix and Raynor staid behind, remember. Plus, since the Dark Templar haven't been contacted yet, shouldn't most refugees still be in the vicinity of the gate? For that matter, we see in the ending that Raynor and Fenix can communicate through the gate, so how contact was even lost is beyond me. How is it that the people who are supposed to be exploring away from where the zerg are coming from encounter the zerg before the people who stayed behind near where the zerg are coming from?
For that matter, if the dark templar constructed a gateway, why is it in the middle of nowhere and completely unguarded? Why didn't the Aiurian refugees guard it when they came through?
Also, why is contacting the dark templar an issue? Zeratul is their praetor. Can't he just grab a protoss communication device, call the Matriarch, and tell her to get ready for a party because he brought some old friends?
-Mission III: Why are Uraj and Khalis necessary? The crystals only got their charges over the course of protoss history, so the temple can't possibly have been built with them in mind. It's not as a power source either, since the temple was built right on top of one.
For that matter, is a sacred cosmic superweapon really neccesary. I mean, the warp gate was only under zerg control for a brief time, they can't possible have sent through that much what do you mean the temple is completely surrounded by zerg forces including a pair of cerebrates? There's more than two broods on the planet? Just how long did Raynor and Fenix lose control of the portal?
Also, what cerebrate is stupid enough to go live on the homeworld of the one group capable of killing them? I'm pretty sure they don't actually have to be on the same world as their broods, since otherwise the dark templar could just assassinate the cerebrates on Shakuras and end the invasion like that.
-Artanis: "You cannot expect us to forgive Kerrigan for her crimes against our race!" What crimes against your race? The only times she's left Char is to go kill Terrans. Yeah, she killed a few protoss on Char, but that's not really a crime against the protoss race. Or are you talking about her actions on Tarsonis? Tassadar certainly didn't seem to hate her for that. I'm actually kinda surprised that Aldaris and Raszagal even know who she is.
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:32 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Dammit Ramses, stop picking apart my favorite childhood videogame story.
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  #118  
Old 05-06-2017, 09:55 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The Conclave didn't survive the Swarm's rampage after the Overmind's death, probably because their own forces had been crippled during their arrest of Tassadar and his subsequent liberation, and unlike his fleet they didn't have the aid of the Terrans shoring up their numbers to facilitate their survival long enough to escape.

Aldaris was the only member left because he'd been sent to Tassadar's fleet with their message preceding the final battle, while the rest of their forces were presumably engaged in trying to hold back the zerg elsewhere. The fact they only sent one of their number to contact Tassadar makes me think they weren't in a position to send more, or at least couldn't do so without bringing whatever zerg they were fighting with them and compromising his attack on the Overmind.
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:22 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Dammit Ramses, stop picking apart my favorite childhood videogame story.
Hey, I learned english by obsessively playing starcraft (and to a lesser extent, Warcraft III) until I understood what was going on. My child self is glaring angrily at me too.

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The Conclave didn't survive the Swarm's rampage after the Overmind's death, probably because their own forces had been crippled during their arrest of Tassadar and his subsequent liberation, and unlike his fleet they didn't have the aid of the Terrans shoring up their numbers to facilitate their survival long enough to escape.

Aldaris was the only member left because he'd been sent to Tassadar's fleet with their message preceding the final battle, while the rest of their forces were presumably engaged in trying to hold back the zerg elsewhere. The fact they only sent one of their number to contact Tassadar makes me think they weren't in a position to send more, or at least couldn't do so without bringing whatever zerg they were fighting with them and compromising his attack on the Overmind.
That makes a lot of sense.

Mission IV: Oh hey, it's our first mission with a gimmick, something which would become ubiquitous in the sequel. The gimmick here is kinda half-assed (Artanis: "Whoops, our warp matrix went kablooey, have fun without stargates"), but you get a Kerrigan to make up for it.

Mission V: And we are introduced to our great and powerful new villains. The United Earth Directorate. As many, many, many have commented before me, it's kinda silly that the UED is represented by (almost) the exact same troops as the Terrans, despite supposedly being much more advanced. Though they did apparently bring a giant, mobile blockade platform, so that's sorta new. To a lesser extent, the same issue applies to the Dark Templar, who use the exact same buildings despite not being tuned into Aiur's network.
This mission is one of the best in Brood War. Unlike the somewhat similar earlier 'dungeon crawl'-style missions, you get a lot more freedom and a lot more information, meaning the mission doesn't consist solely hoping you picked the right corridor every time. It's also arguably one of the more SCII-like missions. Though if it had been a starcraft II mission:
-This would be the mission to introduce the Corsair, which would remove some of the challenge.
-Artanis would have had weird abilities, which could be kinda cool.
-You'd see the detection radius, which would remove a lot of tension.
You ever notice that Artanis has really short nerve chords?
Relatedly, with the reveal that Artanis was the protoss player character in the original starcraft, does that mean that a Praetor outranks an Executor? Or maybe they're separate systems, with one indicating rank as a commander, other mastery as a templar.

Mission VI: I love that this game keep track of the different population limits for the different races separately. If the resources were also kept track of separately, it'd get a bit too confusing to keep track of it all (as that one TFT mission showed), but the current situation is just right.
This is the first mission where you get a choice. You either temp-kill the Baby Overmind, disrupting the swarm, or you go directly for the Uraj crystal. Since I'm a murderous bastard, I went for the overmind-killing route. However, the mere existence of that route creates kind of a plot hole. Why? Because I used a dark templar to land the killing blow. Which is how the second overmind will eventually die. He should be dead now.
I was always a bit confused about the regenerative capabilities of the original overmind (Was it slain by applying enough psionic power in general, enough dark psionic power, or enough mixed dark/light power? Could Zeratul have done it?), but this one should be dead. Heck, I'm surprised that Kerrigan doesn't try to steal Khalis and Uraj. Given that they apparently store huge amounts of light and void energy, they'd be the perfect weapon for slaying overminds.

Mission VII: That's what you get, Aldaris, for being one of the filthy arbiter-piloting judicator caste.
In retrospect, how much did Aldaris know? We know that Raszagal actually served Kerrigan because she was mind-controlled, but Aldaris at the very least didn't seem to know about the mind control part (he seemed to think it was a dark templar conspiracy). On the other hand, he was convincing enough to recruit what was apparently a huge chunk of the templars to his cause, so he did apparently have some evidence.
So is Aldaris the first person to use the term "queen of blades"?
Again, they're all weirdly personal about Kerrigan. Oh, don't worry Aldaris, Kerrigan has changed so much! Aldaris never met the old Kerrigan, Artanis.
Raszagal's mind control is pretty much a one-off ability for Kerrigan. You'd think that'd be the kind of thing that would get repeated use. Say, mind-controlling Gerard Dugalle to order the death of the overmind. Or Horace Warfield during the invasion of Char. Or the overlord of the Tal'darim during the end war.

How are insurrection and Retribution? Never played 'em.
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Old 05-06-2017, 03:23 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Raszagal's mind control is pretty much a one-off ability for Kerrigan. You'd think that'd be the kind of thing that would get repeated use. Say, mind-controlling Gerard Dugalle to order the death of the overmind. Or Horace Warfield during the invasion of Char. Or the overlord of the Tal'darim during the end war.
This part is indeed strange; while it made sense at the time in the context of it only working on a Dark Templar (since their "flavor" of psionic energies - Void, as it turned out - were akin to those of the Swarm), the idea that it never came up again is pretty glaring. Not to mention, supposedly she'd been controlling the Matriarch all along, yet how did she even know where to find Shakuras? How did she know how to get there? And since she hadn't claimed the Swarm yet, how did she get there by herself?

Honestly one of BW's issues with Kerrigan is that she vanished from relevance in SC1, then suddenly came back with powers she didn't have before and which never came back, along with an agenda that didn't last past the end credits. Immediately after BW she never again mind-controlled someone, Dark Templar or otherwise, and she inexplicably sat on her butt doing nothing with the victory she'd just won so that Mengsk could have a fully recovered Dominion by the time SC2 rolled around.

I don't even know what she wanted during WoL. Apparently she was fatalistic about everyone and everything including herself dying when Amon returns, but she simultaneously scrambled around trying to collect the Xel'naga artifact like she deeply cared about surviving. Then we find out she was corrupted all along, which means that even before SC2 - as in, during BW - she was already under Amon's control. Which also means her stopping the Cerebrates from merging and retaking control of the Swarm in BW made no sense, because as a new Overmind they would have inherited its corruption and therefore been just as subject to Amon's control as the old one was.

Honestly it ended up feeling like a lot of Brood War was deemed too dramatic and science-fictiony to fit into the epic fantasy they wanted StarCraft 2 to be, so many of its consequences were either ignored or significantly toned down.
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Old 05-06-2017, 03:34 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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This part is indeed strange; while it made sense at the time in the context of it only working on a Dark Templar (since their "flavor" of psionic energies - Void, as it turned out - were akin to those of the Swarm), the idea that it never came up again is pretty glaring. Not to mention, supposedly she'd been controlling the Matriarch all along, yet how did she even know where to find Shakuras? How did she know how to get there? And since she hadn't claimed the Swarm yet, how did she get there by herself?
Regarding the location of Shakuras, my guess is that the Overmind gleaned its location from Zeratul's mind (but just wasn't very interested in conquering it. No hunks of khaydarin to make him manifest.). It's also shown during one of the missions that Kerrigan can use her powers to force her will upon local groups of zerg, even wresting them from the control of the cerebrates, so that's presumably how she got to Shakuras.

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Honestly it ended up feeling like a lot of Brood War was deemed too dramatic and science-fictiony to fit into the epic fantasy they wanted StarCraft 2 to be, so many of its consequences were either ignored or significantly toned down.
Yeah, that's hitting the nail on the head.



Mission VIII: Wow, Razshagal wasn't kidding when she said the zerg would throw everything they've got at you. There must have been a hundred mutalisks swarming me at one point. Glad I saved before Artanis and Zeratul entered the temple.
Speaking of Artanis, I think we see the first use of his teleport skill that'd become his go-to in Starcraft II, since I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be his scout ship deliberately crashing into the temple.
So I've got a question. What exactly does the Xel'naga temple do? In the ending cinematic, we see a big-ass crater around its foundation. So was it really just an explosion? Because that seems like a lot of trouble we went through just for a big bomb. Considering the zerg probably aren't contained to the small area around the temple, what would even be the point of that? Is it like the Dakara device, and do a planet-wide anti-zerg energy sweep? In that case, why would the Xel'naga build a temple capable of that on some random planet? Maybe that's what the crystals are for, and any Void/Light mixture just annihilates zerg biology.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:22 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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She wasnt searching for her own survival, she was searching to ensure the swarm as an independent entity survived. And iirc SC2 she was never tainted by Amon but never fully a thrall.

Kerrigan sitting on her butt and not doing shit about Arcturus comes from BW tho.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:24 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Mission I: We are the UED, masters of humanity!
One thing I always wondered about was how exactly the UED monitored the Koprulu sector. They've obviously got pretty decent intel, so it must be a decently thorough system, but at the same time it must have been subtle enough that the Terrans never noticed. Did they use infiltrators? Deep space satellites picking up insterstellar communications? Nano-cameras? Psionic choirs?
Another interesting thing is that there was apparently zero contact between humans and terrans. Not just the UPL stayed away (which would make sense, they've got bad history), but none of the other nations of Earth tried to make contact either.
While the UED using standard terran units is already silly, the one that bugs me the most is that they've got an adjudant with the exact same appearance and voice as the one used by the Mar Sara magistrate.
Okay, so in context of the later reveal(s) about Duran, what exactly was the guy really doing here? Was infiltrating the confederate resistance something he was doing for Kerrigan, or something he was doing for Amon? Was it just coincidence that the UED stumbled upon him, or did he deliberately set himself up to be discovered?
If this were a Starcraft II mission, there'd be an achievement for taking the main entrance.
At least for the campaign, detectors seem a bit too ubiquitous for all races, but especially Terrans. You only have access to a single stealth unit this mission, your hero, which means that when he does literally anything, there's instantly a scanner sweep to reveal him. Kinda makes the poor guy pointless.

Mission II: DuGalle (in reference to Duran): "He will always be a traitor to me." Hold on, as far as you know Duran has never been a servant of the Dominion. He was part of a Confederate resistance group, so it's likely he never served emperor Mengsk. Joining his group with yours wasn't particularly turncoaty either, since the only stated goal for his group was revenge against Mengsk.
Still, love the interaction between DuGalle and Stukov.
This mission is another Starcraft II-like mission, this time with the addition of a new unit that's especially suited for this particular mission. It's not quite as good as the mission with the space platform blockade, but it's still a lot of fun.
This mission is a good example of how story can make your game more fun to even the casual player. When I was a little kid, before I even spoke proper English, this was my favorite mission because you got to steal a lot of the awesome big ships. That's great!

Mission III: The introduction of the PSI disrupter, another thing that doesn't really carry over into later stories (sure, Starcraft II has the smaller buildings of the same name that are supposed to be localized versions, but there's nothing even close to the scope of the real psi disrupter.
In this mission, broods get disrupted without their primary hive cluster. The internal control structure of the zerg has always been a little vague. We know that hives, queens and overlords are involved somehow, but to what degree, and over which areas in unclear. I joked a bit about the stupidity of sending cerebrates to Shakuras, but that could legit have been a necessity, like they can only control a certain number of zerg off-world (Thinking about it, I'd have loved to have seen the player on the zerg maps as an actual cerebrate building)

Mission IV: Another choice, slightly less lore-breaking but still kinda silly. Apparently, without constant laboratory access, battlecruiser weapons will just... stop working?
Since I couldn't battlecruiser their battlecruisers, I nuked their nukes. I make all my decisions like that.

Mission V: I love these successions of missions where you slowly push forwards into enemy territory, building in an overall offensive. Too many of SCII missions are quick raids, or one-off engagements. But this? This is war.

Mission VI: "Captain, we have tracked the renegades Mengsk and Raynor to the ruined protoss homeworld of Aiur" Wait, how could you possibly know that Aiur is the Protoss homeworld, or that it was ruined? The only Terrans who should know of that are Raynor's guys, and they've stayed on Aiur.
Actually, that gives me a theory: The Magistrate, the player character from episode I, was part of the UED's network. That's why he seems to have fallen off the grid completely after the original starcraft: He went to Earth to report on everything he'd learned.
I think this is only the second mission to really feature a 3-way war (the first being the protoss mission where you fight your way to a terran complex on Char), which is kinda surprising given what starcraft's plot is about.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:26 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Man, the opening cinematic for the original starcraft was terrible. It's not only really hard to tell what's going on, but it doesn't really seem all that relevant to, well, anything.
The obvious opening cinematic for the game should have been something about the destruction of Chau Sara. Like, maybe show zerg starting to attack the barricades, then have a protoss voiceover talk about the corruption of the world and how it must be cleanced, and then a beam of light.
That is what's happening in the cinematic, though.

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Mission VI: "Captain, we have tracked the renegades Mengsk and Raynor to the ruined protoss homeworld of Aiur" Wait, how could you possibly know that Aiur is the Protoss homeworld, or that it was ruined? The only Terrans who should know of that are Raynor's guys, and they've stayed on Aiur.
Actually, that gives me a theory: The Magistrate, the player character from episode I, was part of the UED's network. That's why he seems to have fallen off the grid completely after the original starcraft: He went to Earth to report on everything he'd learned.
I think this is only the second mission to really feature a 3-way war (the first being the protoss mission where you fight your way to a terran complex on Char), which is kinda surprising given what starcraft's plot is about.
The UED had drones scouting the sector during SC1. So they knew everything that was happening.

I dunno if that makes total sense, but that's what was going on.

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This part is indeed strange; while it made sense at the time in the context of it only working on a Dark Templar (since their "flavor" of psionic energies - Void, as it turned out - were akin to those of the Swarm), the idea that it never came up again is pretty glaring. Not to mention, supposedly she'd been controlling the Matriarch all along, yet how did she even know where to find Shakuras? How did she know how to get there? And since she hadn't claimed the Swarm yet, how did she get there by herself?
Well the Overmind would have had to have known about Raszagal and Shakuras. And given their nomadic lifestyle, I doubt the Dark Templar would have been ready for a super-powerful Zerg psionic mutate infiltrating their planet.

So I think it's pretty reasonable to say that either the Overmind sent her there to deal with the Dark Templar threat (once she'd captured Zeratul and his ilk), or she went there of her own volition after the Overmind died. I think the former makes more sense, but the latter is more character-appropriate.

And honestly, Kerrigan having mind control powers doesn't bother me too much. Presumably, Dugalle, Mengsk and Warfield would all have enough personal security to avoid being mind controlled by her, but the Dark Templar's defenses were probably much thinner.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:54 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Mission VII: Stukov dies! Kinda sorta.
Okay, this is where we get our first big reveal about Duran. Rather than being a confederate rebel, he turns out to be some sort of agent of the zerg. Stukov suspected this, and took actions against him, but that got him branded a traitor.
However, I'm not quite sure that Stukov's reasoning here makes sense. The idea for destroying the PSI disrupter came from DuGalle, not Duran. Duran supported the idea a bit too heavily, sure, but that wouldn't neccesarily make him seem too suspicious.
Similarly, the actions on Aiur. Unless you know that the queen of blades is trying to get Raynor and Mengsk to work for her, his actions there don't really seem all that zerg-favoring. If anything, based on those things, I'd suspect Duran to be an agent for Raynor's Raiders.
Stukov states that he suspects that Duran might even be infested. Even as a little kid, I had a ton of questions about that. Are infested infiltrators with full mental capacities and completely normal appearances something that are actually known to exist? I mean, Kerrigan doesn't seem to question Duran's nature as an infested terran either, so I guess it has to be within the swarm's expected capabilities, but in that case you'd think everyone would be a lot more worried about infiltrators.

Mission VIII: It kinda saddens me that the new overmind and his cerebrates don't talk in Brood War. It makes the broods feel a lot more generic, with only a single person standing apart in the swarm. This mission at least acknowledges there's differences between the cerebratse, with each of the three cerebrates presenting something unique (Or, I think that was the intent. The orange guys didn't send any infested terrans at me at all). The torrasque was a cool idea as a cerebrate specialty, but the invulnerable sunken colonies are a bit silly.
Incidentally, what's going on with the zerg broods? I thought the idea was that each brood was headed by a single cerebrate, but this is the third cerebrate we've encountered for the Garm Brood (the first was Zasz and the second was guarding the Xel'naga temple on Shakuras) and the second we've encountered for the Grendel Brood (the first was on Aiur prior to the assault on the Overmind). The overmind stated that he couldn't regain control of the brood, so this is probably a continuity gaffe.
I love the ending cinematic to this campaign so dang much. Also, it shows that the Copyright logo still exists in the distant 26th century.
You know, I'd really like some more background about what living in the UED is like. We know that the Confederacy was pretty bad, and we know that the Dominion was pretty bad, but we never really get any information about why the UED is pretty bad. All we have is the backstory of the Koprulu sector colonists, but that's centuries old, and it's quite clear the UED has changed its stances on several things since then. The video shown is a bit propaganda-ish, though the only lie in it we know was deliberate (the circumstances of Stukov's death) would probably be covered up in a modern-day society too. The UED might well believe Char to be the homeworld of the zerg, and they might even be right about the new overmind planning an attack on Earth (again, we don't have the perspective of the cerebrates at all)
Also, DuGalle doesn't recognize Kerrigan, so there goes my Comrade Magistrate theory.

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That is what's happening in the cinematic, though.
Is it? What it looks like is a terran ship investigating the debris of what is either a terran/zerg battle, or a terran/protoss battle, and then getting blown up for being nosy. There's no focus on the planet, or indications that anything's been infested.

Quote:
So I think it's pretty reasonable to say that either the Overmind sent her there to deal with the Dark Templar threat (once she'd captured Zeratul and his ilk), or she went there of her own volition after the Overmind died. I think the former makes more sense, but the latter is more character-appropriate.
The latter sounds more likely to me. If she'd been on a mission for the overmind, she'd probably not go for stealth, but bring a brood along. I'm guessing approaching Raszagal was the entire reason she bluffed her way into helping with Uraj and Khalis during the protoss campaign (which would also explain provide a handy excuse why her mind control isn't seen more often now that I think about it: It might require her target to be close and have its guard down.), since she really didn't accomplish all that much that wouldn't otherwise be accomplished.



Edit: Mission I: Kerrigan to Cerebrate: "Serve me unquestionably, and I'll let you live." Lies! You deep-sixed poor cerebrate-kun the moment you no longer needed him.
Which actually brings up something that's bugging me. Okay, we know that the overmind gives the cerebrates a degree of immortality, by regenerating them upon death. We know that the reason that Dark Templars can kill cerebrates is because they use the same void energies that connect the zerg psionically, resulting in a disruption of the connection between cerebrates and the overmind (the PSI disrupter probably does the same, which is why you could kill cerebrates last mission).
However, the entire reason the Dark Templar thing works is because they use the same energies as the zerg. But shouldn't that mean that psychic zerg themselves should also be capable of killing cerebrates? Kerrigan is obviously capable of manipulating the zerg pschic network, so she must have some degree of void energy mastery. Shouldn't she be just as capable of killing cerebrates and overminds as a dark templar?

Mission III: This mission is dumb. What shall we do to fight the UED? Oh, I know, let's plunder and infest the largest remaining non-UED nation! And everybody's totally cool with that.
And again, I would really like to know if the UED really is that bad. Raynor all but asks the question in this mission, but all Kerrigan's proof is "look at our historical records" which are centuries out of date and the UED has obviously changed in at least some aspects (With the UED propaganda clip proudly talking about the feats of its psychics, as well as using a clearly cyborg adjudant). Even with those, it's hard to belief that the UED is worse than the Zerg Swarms.
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