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View Poll Results: What do you consider more iconic to the Kaldorei?
The druids are more iconic than the Sentinels. 4 11.11%
They are equally iconic. 21 58.33%
The Sentinels are more iconic than the druids. 11 30.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 12-15-2017, 06:08 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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All star-themed spells in the game are from the arcane school.

That means something along the lines that the arcane is the basic element of the cosmos, or vice-versa.
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  #27  
Old 12-15-2017, 10:03 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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So, I didn't want to retread old ground here, but the discussion is quickly getting into the weeds. Let me just snip this quote.

Quote:
You cannot separate night elves from druidism
The sentinels are not druids. They make heavy use of natural advantages, weapons and tactics that the Night Elven connection to nature has afforded them, but they are not themselves druids. That doesn't mean that their purpose is fueled by anything else though.

We're talking about a race whose ideology begins and ends with protecting the wilds. Their religion is tied into it, ancients patrol their streets, and their buildings are not even constructed in a a traditional sense, they are grown, just to name a few things.

Sentinels, and the Night Elves as a whole completely lack purpose and identity without druidism. You can't understand their society at all without that context. This is why they are so difficult to disentangle, and why it was ridiculous and jarring for Blizzard to do what they did with the Cenarion Circle.

But getting back to the point, while I maintain that saying that sentinels are druids is technically inaccurate, it's still a technicality at best. The sentinels' mission, and that of the Night Elves writ large, IS druidic. (Barring insane future lore developments constructed to wreck the night elves in the service of "but it would be cheaper if we just made everyone like humans and orcs")
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  #28  
Old 12-15-2017, 10:48 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandris View Post
Like I said earlier, I think the defining characteristics of druids (night elf men who live predominantly in the Emerald Dream) were retconned after Warcraft 3 so now we're just arguing over our interpretations of druidism.

In my opinion, "druidism" is derivative from Cenarius's direct teachings. The pillars of those teachings were balance, preservation and Elune. Night elves naturally embody those philosophies.

If alien species who've never walked the Dream or met the Cenarion Circle can somehow be called "druids," then there's no question in my mind the average Sentinel qualifies as well.
But there's no evidence that the sentinels, as a corpus, have any connection to the emerald dream whatsoever. It's much more "high magic" in theme than what the sentinels do. Saying all sentinels are druids is like saying all human knights are paladins just because they wear heavy armor and uphold a code of honor.

Quote:
You cannot separate night elves from druidism.
You are aware that night elf society existed before druidism, and there are night elves, like the Shen'dralar, who do not have druids, yes?

Quote:
Here's my source for centaur druids, by the way:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Druid_races#Centaur_druids
Wowpedia is not a source. If you'd actually checked the citation there you'd see that their claim comes from the Horde Player's Guide, an RPG product. The RPG was declared non-canon by Blizz partway through Wrath.



Quote:
To begin with, all Sentinels use Shadowmeld which is Elune's magic. In Warcraft 3 the archers used Elune's magic to defend themselves (Elune's Grace ability), while the huntresses (and the scrapped sentinel unit from beta) could communicate with animals.

I don't want to start an argument over the nature of Elune, but in my opinion Elune is one of the fundamentals underpinning druidism so Elune's magic is druidic magic.
If using Elune's magic makes a sentinel a druid, then does using holy magic make one a paladin? Is Tyrande a paladin? Is Alonsus faol?

Elune's magic is one part of being a druid, but using it isn't enough to make one a druid.
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  #29  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:08 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
You are aware that night elf society existed before druidism, and there are night elves, like the Shen'dralar, who do not have druids, yes?
Yes, and there was a massive historical event that redefined that society into what we have today. Blizzard explained it in great detail.

But in terms of the themes that made the Night Elves, the ones they were introduced with, the ones that brought players in, and the ones that set the tone of the playable race, you do not have Night Elves as we know them without druidism.
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  #30  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:19 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
If using Elune's magic makes a sentinel a druid, then does using holy magic make one a paladin? Is Tyrande a paladin? Is Alonsus faol?

Elune's magic is one part of being a druid, but using it isn't enough to make one a druid.
Exactly. Just like we don't say every blood elf is an mage just because of their racial abilities, all draenei aren't paladins and priests because of their racial heal, and every Gilnean worgen isn't a druid just because of the origins of their curse. By the same approximate logic the void elves aren't all going to be considered shadow priests and/or shadow mages, though their example admittedly makes a bit less sense in the case of non-caster classes for void elves given the events that appear to lead to their alteration.
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  #31  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:20 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I 100% agree with Kyalin.
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  #32  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:23 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I think this again serves a proof some of us have irreconcilable interpretations of Night Elven society, culture, and belief system. Which ultimately explains why some of us are not moved by certain things as much/not at all than others.
Well, I ought to ask if only to clarify: do you think our personal disagreement over this matter has more to do with how the society is and was portrayed or how we think it should advance from there?

Because, and I hate to keep doing this, those are separate assertions.
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  #33  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:27 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I think this again serves a proof some of us have irreconcilable interpretations of Night Elven society, culture, and belief system. Which ultimately explains why some of us are not moved by certain things as much/not at all than others.

Although there is one thing that is absolutely not left for interpretation. As per Chronicle, the Sentinels were created before druidism had taken any larger hold within Kaldorei society, and way before the Cenarion Circle was formed. Their purpose was indeed to defend Nordrassil and the elven lands, but their origin did not lie with druidism per se, it lay with the Cult of Elune and the warrior veterans of the War of the Ancients.
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  #34  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:43 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Although there is one thing that is absolutely not left for interpretation. As per Chronicle, the Sentinels were created before druidism had taken any larger hold within Kaldorei society, and way before the Cenarion Circle was formed. Their purpose was indeed to defend Nordrassil and the elven lands, but their origin did not lie with druidism per se, it lay with the Cult of Elune and the warrior veterans of the War of the Ancients.
I would regard that as a part of the societal changes that happened during and after the War of the Ancients that gave us the society we were presented with in Warcraft III and WoW.

To give an example, in 1000 ad, if you were to present to me the Byzantine empire, I would say that it is very much defined by Orthodox Christianity. It is of little consequence to me that, as a continuation of the Roman Empire, it has heavy pegan heritage. That doesn't change how critical Eastern Orthodoxy now is to understanding the Eastern Roman Empire.
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  #35  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:01 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I would regard that as a part of the societal changes that happened during and after the War of the Ancients that gave us the society we were presented with in Warcraft III and WoW.

To give an example, in 1000 ad, if you were to present to me the Byzantine empire, I would say that it is very much defined by Orthodox Christianity. It is of little consequence to me that, as a continuation of the Roman Empire, it has heavy pegan heritage. That doesn't change how critical Eastern Orthodoxy now is to understanding the Eastern Roman Empire.
You certainly can, but as I said, different interpretations. I certainly consider the Cult of Elune the integral and core part of Kaldorei society, not druidism. From the days of the very first Kaldorei, when the faith in Elune molded their early culture and gave name to their capital, Elun'dris, the days of Azshara, when the faith formed the identity of those outside her Highborne, the time after the Sundering, when Tyrande and her priests formed the building block of the new society, to the current day.

I already said that before, but while I could imagine their society going forward and maintaining its current structure with the druids taking a back seat or disappearing completely, I could not imagine the same with the Cult of Elune and its institutions gone.
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  #36  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:21 PM
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And see, for me, the central conceit of the night elves has always been arcane magic; back in the WotA they had their highborne mages, obviously, but they also got their sustenance from the arcane moonwells and then in WoW druids used plenty of "natural" arcane magic.
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  #37  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:25 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I don't think there's a choice between the two. I agree that you also can't understand the Night Elves as they are now presented without Elune, but as I've laid out, druidism is also integral to their identity. Even a cursory look at any Night Elven settlement makes that clear.

But I think I have a better understanding of where our disconnect is. You're couching your perspective in the origin story, whereas I'm coming from what the player was shown when Night Elves were first presented and what they continue to be shown in WoW.

As for what you could imagine in the future, that's an entirely different consideration. Personally, I think if you remove either element, you fundamentally change who they are and what they stand for. I could certainly imagine doing that, but I don't think either of us would say that they would be the same.

If we take your example of druids taking a back seat, sure, I can imagine that happening, I might even think that's an interesting line to push on if done well, but I also think you would not disagree that we are talking about a major cultural realignment away from the society that we see in Warcraft III, depending on the magnitude of "druids taking a backseat" of course.

But again, I think we're starting to dip into the realm of what either of us want to see or "could" see, rather than what is iconic to Night Elves.
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  #38  
Old 12-15-2017, 02:42 PM
Shandris Shandris is offline

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My problem is that originally, there were very clear requirements for being a druid: you had to be a night elf man and live predominantly in the Emerald Dream. Over time, that's been so thoroughly retconned that there are now alien druids from other planets who have never walked the Emerald Dream or heard the name Cenarius.

The qualifications for being a druid are now pitifully low. We're expanding the definition of "druid" to include things that have no relationship with the Dream or Cenarius. The Sentinels who used Elune's magic to fight alongside Cenarius in defense of Ashenvale are more druid-like to me than some other "official" druids who don't actually support druidism at all.

I'm going to repeat what I said before: the pillars of druidism are preservation, balance and Elune. If there are druids who adhere to none of those tenets, then certainly the elves who adhere to all 3 would be druids as well.

I mean, even tauren druids are a joke if we're being honest. I don't understand how you can logically call someone a druid if they're invading Ashenvale, lol.
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  #39  
Old 12-15-2017, 02:54 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandris View Post
My problem is that originally, there were very clear requirements for being a druid: you had to be a night elf man and live predominantly in the Emerald Dream. Over time, that's been so thoroughly retconned that there are now alien druids from other planets who have never walked the Emerald Dream or heard the name Cenarius.

The qualifications for being a druid are now pitifully low. We're expanding the definition of "druid" to include things that have no relationship with the Dream or Cenarius. The Sentinels who used Elune's magic to fight alongside Cenarius in defense of Ashenvale are more druid-like to me than some other "official" druids who don't actually support druidism at all.

I'm going to repeat what I said before: the pillars of druidism are preservation, balance and Elune. If there are druids who adhere to none of those tenets, then certainly the elves who adhere to all 3 would be druids as well.

I mean, even tauren druids are a joke if we're being honest. I don't understand how you can logically call someone a druid if they're invading Ashenvale, lol.
Ok, so are you defining druids in a more ideological sense or a more mechanical sense?

Apologies if the question seems obvious, I just want to pin it down.
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  #40  
Old 12-15-2017, 03:33 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
As for what you could imagine in the future, that's an entirely different consideration. Personally, I think if you remove either element, you fundamentally change who they are and what they stand for. I could certainly imagine doing that, but I don't think either of us would say that they would be the same.

If we take your example of druids taking a back seat, sure, I can imagine that happening, I might even think that's an interesting line to push on if done well, but I also think you would not disagree that we are talking about a major cultural realignment away from the society that we see in Warcraft III, depending on the magnitude of "druids taking a backseat" of course.
Oh, you certainly won't find me disagreeing here. What I simply meant before was "large to massive changes compared to a complete overhaul starting from a scratch".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
But again, I think we're starting to dip into the realm of what either of us want to see or "could" see, rather than what is iconic to Night Elves.
Frankly, I am almost tempted to create a thread to discuss our interpretations and how exactly would each of us like things to go forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
And see, for me, the central conceit of the night elves has always been arcane magic; back in the WotA they had their highborne mages, obviously, but they also got their sustenance from the arcane moonwells and then in WoW druids used plenty of "natural" arcane magic.
I certainly wouldn't disagree with the notion it is among the central tropes of the Kaldorei. Which, in the end, is why I have fallen in love with how early Kaldorei society was represented in Chronicle, a balance between their bond with nature, arcane mysticism, and the faith in Elune, the last one also forming a spiritual glue. And why I would like things to go full circle again, the Elunites still representing the spiritual glue, the druids taking a back seat, but still being important in representing the bond with nature, arcane mysticism return, represented by institutions such as the Moon Guard (this is one bit I really liked in Legion, how it made a renewed Moon Guard a possibility, and not a weak one at that).
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  #41  
Old 12-15-2017, 04:09 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Oh, you certainly won't find me disagreeing here. What I simply meant before was "large to massive changes compared to a complete overhaul starting from a scratch".
Eh, that difference is almost semantic to me, but then, I'm referring to the root and branch removal of druidism as opposed to them simply losing some influence. I still think the latter is significant, however.

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Frankly, I am almost tempted to create a thread to discuss our interpretations and how exactly would each of us like things to go forward.
I won't dwell too much on that here. Other threads go over this in more detail, but I do not see a way forward from where we are at present.

I'd join a discussion on what could have been though... perhaps I'll create one after the weekend
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  #42  
Old 12-15-2017, 09:28 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I voted that Sentinels and Druids are equally iconic, but I've also been starting to feel like Mages are making a sudden rise as well and I'm not sure I'm fond of that. It doesn't help that there's an entire zone dedicated to Highborne lore on the Broken Shore as part of the whole 'elf expansion' package and that the only Night Elves in the Battle for Azeroth cinematic looked like they were Mages.

Personally I vastly prefer Night Elves being physical combat experts with mastery in nature magic, whereas Void Elves fill out the "magical scholarly elves" quotient with added interest in all magics that are taboo and esoteric to give them flavor in contrast to the other elf races.
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  #43  
Old 12-15-2017, 09:37 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I voted that Sentinels and Druids are equally iconic, but I've also been starting to feel like Mages are making a sudden rise as well and I'm not sure I'm fond of that. It doesn't help that there's an entire zone dedicated to Highborne lore on the Broken Shore as part of the whole 'elf expansion' package and that the only Night Elves in the Battle for Azeroth cinematic looked like they were Mages.
Actually the archers who put several arrows into Saurfang are also night elves.
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  #44  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:51 PM
Mending Mending is offline

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I thought they were mages at first, too, but after looking closer I’d put money down that they were casting star surge and wrath.
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