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Old Yesterday, 04:14 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
Smoke's problem is that he gleefully downplays any sins on Christianity's part or excuses them.
Citation needed.
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  #52952  
Old Yesterday, 04:28 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
The Gospels and the New Testament as a whole were written in Greek and Aramaic and then translated in Latin and other languages. If you have a legitimate critique of Thomas Aquinas and the errors in Catholic teaching of the time, you can present them, otherwise you're using the Islamic escape for critiques of the Quran.
I concede that you are right about that. You're still dead wrong about "interest".

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If Israel is developed like you say, then why do they need our money?
That's irrelevant to whether they are "developed" or not. Also, they are on the frontlines of constantly being ganged up on by a bunch of Islamic shitheels.

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Why do you keep comparing him with unrelated characters as if it's supposed to absolve him of everything he's done. By your logic Temujin who had to deal with asshole khans but in the end he was a nice guy because he allowed different religions into his empire built upon countless innocent corpses.
He's using the "Islamophobe's Glass House" argument, which states that you can't criticize Muhammad or Islam because some important people in the Bible also did bad things. In other words, it's a tu quoque fallacy. Nevermind that Joshua wasn't considered "perfect", and Moses was punished by God for his transgressions. Another example Yoggy loves to use to defend Muhammad from claims of him being a pedophile, is that Joseph was a "pedophile" who was porking a pre-teen Mary (despite the apocryphal source he uses being non canon and also still claiming that Mary was a virgin). Neither Joshua nor Moses are considered "perfect" men who are to be emulated in every word or deed, forever and ever.

Muhammad, on the other hand, is treated by Islam as the "perfect man", who is considered equal to Allah in many respects (yes, Islam practices shirk ironically). Therefore, anything horrific and evil Muhammad did, is to be emulated and copied as the moral standard. That includes: pedophilia, FGM, racism against blacks, genocide, fascistic punishments toward insulting Muhammad or questioning him, marital rape licenses and spousal abuse, slavery, terrorism, and misogyny!
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  #52953  
Old Yesterday, 04:56 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Don't we have a religion thread for all of this?
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  #52954  
Old Yesterday, 04:58 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Don't we have a religion thread for all of this?
I think some political/societal attitudes toward religions fit better here. That thread is more for arguing parts and actions of religions. This argument does seem to be edging toward the latter, though.
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  #52955  
Old Yesterday, 05:12 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Current immigration policies are anti-native. They drive down wages
False. Import of labour does not, by itself, drive down wages, since not every immigrant actually competes for all jobs available, logically. The dismantling of unionism, free reign of corporate lobbyism in government, and quite frankly the natural development of the capitalist labour market drive down wages. Your wages go down because somewhere else in the world, companies find cheaper labour sources. Your wages go down because every 5 years or so, another form of low skill employment is automated and made redundant. High skill wages, on the other hand, do not go down. And fyi - immigrants do not compete for your jobs. 9/10 immigrants have the hardest time finding any decent employment. Why do you think they end up taking the shit jobs nobody wants? There's a reason we have clichés like the surgeon driving a cab.

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raise the cost of living
In this case you are sort of right. More demand will of course increase rents and property prices, without a doubt. This is, however, an inevitable development in any capitalist country, and hardly a valid reason to disregard common human decency towards refugees, for instance.

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increase crime
Demonstrably false. Germany, Sweden and Austria, the three countries the most affected by the refugee influx of the past years, only this year released new statistics for 2016 showing without a doubt how crimes such as petty theft etc have actually gone down - and that the relative percentage of immigrants involved has stayed the same, meaning extremely low (<10%). Meanwhile, verbal as well as physically violent hate crimes have exploded, committed by natives against asylum seekers, in some cases by over 50% compared to previous years.

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, and divide people within a country
This is true only while elements of the native population want it to be so. The only people that want to be divided are those afraid of immigrants, Muslim or otherwise. The rest of us are quite content and harmonious, I assure you.

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. Muslims are not integrating and do not want to integrate, for reasons created by the government(s) and because of their beliefs. One of them being that non-Muslims are degenerates and they risk becoming degenerates by integrating with us.
What government reasons? Do explain what you mean here. As far as "Muslims do not want to integrate" - this is simply not true. First off, define integration. Does it mean to drop your religious beliefs? That can't be true, else the Christians would have to drop their faith when they emigrate to Japan, and the Jews would have to drop their when they emigrate to predominantly Christian America. So what does integration mean? Commonly it means: learning the language, becoming part of the labour force (ie not living off unemployment benefits) - something you fervently deny them, as you don't want them to "take your jobs", so they're already screwed no matter what they do. It also means to learn and tolerate the local laws and customs. Which I assure you most do. There are exceptions everywhere. There are "bad eggs" among natives just as there among immigrants.

However, it is extremely important to remember that integration never, absolutely never, happens perfectly within the first generation. Best example? New York City, New York, USA. For literally hundreds of years, segregated communities of Christian Germans, Jewish Poles, Buddhist Vietnamese, Muslim Arabs and Orthodox Ukrainians lived side by side, the first generation often never even properly learned English. They never abandoned their faith either, nor were they asked to. Many of them held quite conservative and isolationist views. Ever heard of the Jewish mother or the Asian father strongly disapproving of the child wanting to marry someone of a differing faith/ethnicity? These things change gradually, over generations. That has always been the way of things, and it always will. It is hypocritical and a double standard to suddenly ask of Syrian refugees what we never asked of immigrants of any sort.

That is, btw, another HUGE distinction. The current major issue is due to REFUGEES, not immigrants. They are literally fleeing for their lives, their cities sometimes worse hellholes now than German cities in WWII. They are not economic migrants, as is so callously asserted by many. They have nowhere else to go, and this is the safest place for them to be. Would you not try to get your family to the safest place you could find too?

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These policies are anti-Christian because Christian prayer is forbidden in public schools while Muslims are given prayer rooms and children are forced to learn Islamic prayer. This is anti-Christian. If religions were equal you might have a point for equal rights, but Islam has been trying to conquer the West for some 1400 years.
I don't know where you live, but in Austria no prayers are forbidden in public schools. Every faith has its own available religious class, which is voluntary. I have never heard of anyone not of Muslim faith being "forced to learn Islamic prayers", especially not children in European public schools. Please find me hard evidence of that, otherwise I'm going to dismiss it as pure bullshit. Hence, again, propaganda.

Islam has not been "trying to conquer the West for 1400 years". There is no "one Islam", no Sultanat attempting to invade Christendom, this is hysterical bullshit. Yes, the Islamic State is attempting to recreate the Caliphates of old. Not the entirety of 1.7 billion peaceful Muslims in the world. This notion is so ridiculous it doesn't even remotely stand any kind of logical scrutiny. Btw, the Islamic State harkening back to the old Caliphates is rather ironic, considering that they were lightyears ahead of European culture at the time in science, medicine, arts and most especially - religious tolerance. It's not much discussed of course if you want to scare people, but the old Caliphates for the most part were ofc Islamic, but tolerated Judaism and Christendom in its regions. They were expansionist, naturally, they took slaves, also. So did every European dukedom, kingdom, etc. With the exception that the Catholic church did not take so kindly to apostates, heretics and heathens in medieval times. You might want to revisit your lecture of that particular age in history.

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I'm not saying kill all Muslims or that we shouldn't help actual Syrians (as I am sure that will be levied against me, again). I'm saying that Islam is not our friend and we should look at the historical context of what is going on. Saudi Arabia has refused to take any Syrians because of cultural differences but is more than willing to build mosques. Isn't that something that makes you think about what is going on at all? And I used the term propaganda because Islamic fetishists like you are opening your arms to people who have historically tried to destroy our civilization.
You say you're not saying "kill all Muslims" or "don't help Syrians", yet in your very next breath you utter conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions about how all of the Muslim world is apparently conspiring against the West, how "they" have tried to destroy "us" in the past (nevermind that we are talking about literally hundreds of years of history between people - I wonder how you would feel if I suddenly treat you based on what your Christian ancestors did 200, 400, 800years ago), and accuse me of being an "Islamic fetishist". Is that when you've watched more than 10 Mia Khalifa videos? I'm curious.

Yes, Saudi Arabia and several other Gulf States have refused to take in Syrian refugees. Because they are reprehensible Wahabbist regimes, btw sponsored and supported by yours truly, the Western democracies. Meanwhile, Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey, all non-Wahabbist but predominantly Muslim states (although not really all that democratic in some cases) have taken in more refugees than any European country would ever dream of. Millions are currently living in those three countries, Lebanon's population is currently approximately 1/3 made up of Syrian refugees. And no, Lebanon is not building mosques in Europe and does not give a shit about the Islamic State or Al*Quaeda (yes, those groups have their cells everywhere, but that's besides the point here). So look, already your big Muslim conspiracy is falling apart.
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  #52956  
Old Yesterday, 05:13 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
I concede that you are right about that. You're still dead wrong about "interest".


That's irrelevant to whether they are "developed" or not. Also, they are on the frontlines of constantly being ganged up on by a bunch of Islamic shitheels.
I'm not, if you actually look into it, but I will leave that to you.

That was one of the reasons you said we should have supported them initially. And, I do not see why that matters.

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
That's hardly it at all. If anything christianity is getting preferential treatment on a pedestal by most people (even new atheists). When Anders Breivik directly cites right wing doctrine he's held up as a lone wolf or not a true believer (as in any abortion bomber or the scum in Uganda who kill gay people). Yet when a single muslim does something bad it's all muslims fault.

It's sickening.

Smoke's problem is that he gleefully downplays any sins on Christianity's part or excuses them.

Richard Carrier criticizes Islam too. the thing is....he's honest about it. He doesn't pull punches with christianity and is willing to point out that christian fundies are far more dangerous than islamic fundamentalists (in North America.)
Christianity is the West's native religion (yes, I realize all of the history and that other religions were practiced). Europe in 1492 was Christian and only Europe was Christian. Other Christians existed, but not in the fashion that Europe did. Europe was Christendom and Christendom was Europe.

Last edited by Mertico; Yesterday at 05:17 PM..
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  #52957  
Old Yesterday, 05:24 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Christianity is the West's native religion (yes, I realize all of the history and that other religions were practiced). Europe in 1492 was Christian and only Europe was Christian. Other Christians existed, but not in the fashion that Europe did. Europe was Christendom and Christendom was Europe.
I disagree. Christianity is definitely only native to the Middle East despite its general migration westward. That attitude is why churches get burned by those who follow the West's actual native religions.
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  #52958  
Old Yesterday, 05:35 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Christianity originated in Jerusalem and has existed in the Middle East for longer than it has in Europe. Technically it is one of the Middle East's many native religions. Technically various pagan practices were European native religions. Simply to be linguistically accurate.

You can say Europe is traditionally predominantly Christian, Mertico, then you'd be right.
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  #52959  
Old Yesterday, 06:59 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Why do you think they end up taking the shit jobs nobody wants? There's a reason we have clichés like the surgeon driving a cab.

What government reasons? Do explain what you mean here. As far as "Muslims do not want to integrate" - this is simply not true. First off, define integration. Does it mean to drop your religious beliefs? That can't be true, else the Christians would have to drop their faith when they emigrate to Japan, and the Jews would have to drop their when they emigrate to predominantly Christian America. So what does integration mean? Commonly it means: learning the language, becoming part of the labour force (ie not living off unemployment benefits) - something you fervently deny them, as you don't want them to "take your jobs", so they're already screwed no matter what they do. It also means to learn and tolerate the local laws and customs. Which I assure you most do. There are exceptions everywhere. There are "bad eggs" among natives just as there among immigrants.

Islam has not been "trying to conquer the West for 1400 years". There is no "one Islam", no Sultanat attempting to invade Christendom, this is hysterical bullshit. Yes, the Islamic State is attempting to recreate the Caliphates of old. Not the entirety of 1.7 billion peaceful Muslims in the world. This notion is so ridiculous it doesn't even remotely stand any kind of logical scrutiny. Btw, the Islamic State harkening back to the old Caliphates is rather ironic, considering that they were lightyears ahead of European culture at the time in science, medicine, arts and most especially - religious tolerance. It's not much discussed of course if you want to scare people, but the old Caliphates for the most part were ofc Islamic, but tolerated Judaism and Christendom in its regions. They were expansionist, naturally, they took slaves, also. So did every European dukedom, kingdom, etc. With the exception that the Catholic church did not take so kindly to apostates, heretics and heathens in medieval times. You might want to revisit your lecture of that particular age in history.


You say you're not saying "kill all Muslims" or "don't help Syrians", yet in your very next breath you utter conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions about how all of the Muslim world is apparently conspiring against the West, how "they" have tried to destroy "us" in the past (nevermind that we are talking about literally hundreds of years of history between people - I wonder how you would feel if I suddenly treat you based on what your Christian ancestors did 200, 400, 800years ago), and accuse me of being an "Islamic fetishist". Is that when you've watched more than 10 Mia Khalifa videos? I'm curious.

Yes, Saudi Arabia and several other Gulf States have refused to take in Syrian refugees. Because they are reprehensible Wahabbist regimes, btw sponsored and supported by yours truly, the Western democracies. Meanwhile, Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey, all non-Wahabbist but predominantly Muslim states (although not really all that democratic in some cases) have taken in more refugees than any European country would ever dream of.
I tried to cut down some of the nonsense in your 'rebuttal' and left the points that you may actually understand. Those jobs are 'shit' because of the way in which wages are driven down, it's supply and demand. A larger labor pool means lower wages. Integration means they won't send remittances to their home countries, they will support the US government against their home countries, and they will not commit acts of terror in the name of their religion, which is and always will be foreign.

You love, as all defenders of Islam do, to claim that Islam is not a monolith, but at the same time wish to paint Christianity as such or even all people opposed to Islamic immigrants as such. Islam under the first five Caliphs was a monolith. It was even mostly so under the Umayyads dynasty. Sunni Islam was also certainly a monolith under the Ottomans as well. I assume, since you are Austrian, that your ancestors fought at Battle of Vienna in 1683. If you want to talk about how civilized they were, you can thank the Greeks and Persians for that as there was nothing in Islamic civilization that equaled the scholars they inherited via conquest. Islamic tolerance was the in form of jizya, which I do not think you would like if it were imposed on non-Western groups.

We can also help the Syrians without moving them all into our countries. Most of these so called Syrians are actually from all across the world, with grown men claiming to be children so they can enter Europe and America and receive benefits which the governments encourage, integration is something that would cause them to lose these benefits. This is not helping actually displaced Syrians. It's just false smiles.

Your fetishism of Islam comes from desire to defend it, without the possibility of it being foreign or unwanted in Western countries or worse yet wrong and barbaric. You also make it sound as though I support the Western governments and their love of the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia, I do not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
I disagree. Christianity is definitely only native to the Middle East despite its general migration westward. That attitude is why churches get burned by those who follow the West's actual native religions.
Most of the thought is based on Greek, North African, Roman, and Italian thinkers with some Jews, Germans, Spaniards, ect thrown in. The more correct term would Mediterranean but where Europe ends and the Mediterranean begins is hard to say. It is also an argument of when something is native or not. As of 1492, Europe was the only place with Christian rulers and majority.
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  #52960  
Old Yesterday, 08:14 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
I'm not, if you actually look into it, but I will leave that to you.
You are. The fact that you don't link any sources, or proof, for what you state only proves this. The prohibition on interest is only on debt given to poor brothers of the faith, not interest in and of itself. You can read it yourself, but I doubt you will, because that will cause you to doubt Aquinas and all of those other appeals to Catholic authority that you trot out.

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That was one of the reasons you said we should have supported them initially. And, I do not see why that matters.
We don't live in a bubble, Mert. We live in a world with other countries. Enemies and allies. We are not some majestic island that is just alone on a planet of ocean.
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  #52961  
Old Today, 12:12 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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