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Old 03-25-2018, 12:46 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Unfair characterization, but wasn't one of the more recent killings because a guy grabbed his mom's guns, killed her, then went out to kill more people?
What does that have to do with "most gun owners" being "utterly irresponsible?"
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  #57452  
Old 03-25-2018, 07:50 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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On a different topic, this is a good read. At least if you're already inclined to certain beliefs.
It's just hard to fathom. As a white person who has black in-laws, friends, co-workers, and supervisors, it's a little harder to see a critical need for drastic social action.

When I apply for jobs, every sequence ends by asking my race and gender. It's optional, but I'm pretty sure failing to answer eliminates me from the runnings. I also don't think that answering as White Male is necessarily doing me any favors (though to be honest, my guess based on experience is that in my field it's the females who are receiving more preferential treatment rather than black males).

Working for the City of Dallas, I saw even more black representation among my co-workers and superiors, including the police chief. Remember that Dallas was where the police were leisurely chatting alongside Black Lives Matters protesters during a march, when a third party ambushed and started gunning those white officers down. And that shooter probably had less motivation from "I'm black and angry at the situation" and more from "I'm Texan and love to shoot shit", if you know what I mean.

I guess my challenge for that article is the same challenge I have for Black Lives Matter: what do you want? What sort of new legislation is the right direction? My children go to integrated schools, I work in an integrated workplace, I live in an integrated neighborhood, I have in-laws and friends in mixed marriages/relationships that include blacks... what is it that needs to happen at this point, on a legal and/or social level?

Because the Civil Rights Movement had legitimate answers to those questions. If I'm as naive as those people polled in the '50s and '60s, then where in the country is this systemic apartheid hiding?

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  #57453  
Old 03-25-2018, 02:04 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Because the Civil Rights Movement had legitimate answers to those questions. If I'm as naive as those people polled in the '50s and '60s, then where in the country is this systemic apartheid hiding?
The main one that's often mentioned is the police force. What portion of the police force is white and how does it reflect the community population? Sometimes you'll get a white police force ruling over a nonwhite community, although it's a chicken and egg scenario.

The other one is simply people exercising their freedom . Some people don't want to be around non-whites so when desegregation of schools started happening people up and left the area or public school to put them in a whiter school. Similiar things also tend to happen with towns.

Unless you're a fan of restricting where people live and where their children go to school based on it becoming "too white" you can't really get rid of that beyond social engineering.
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:58 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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As if it's so freedom breaking to have gun ownership tied to an arms licence obtainable by everyone who passes the tests and goes through a background check.
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Old 03-25-2018, 03:07 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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As if it's so freedom breaking to have gun ownership tied to an arms licence obtainable by everyone who passes the tests and goes through a background check.
This is America. We don't do things like requiring literacy tests to vote anymore.
Just teach kids gun safety in school like the old days if that's the concern.
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  #57456  
Old 03-25-2018, 03:13 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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This is America. We don't do things like requiring literacy tests to vote anymore.
Just teach kids gun safety in school like the old days if that's the concern.
Ah, yes, I forgot. America, the land where the invention of IDs has gone unnoticed.
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  #57457  
Old 03-25-2018, 05:02 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The main one that's often mentioned is the police force. What portion of the police force is white and how does it reflect the community population? Sometimes you'll get a white police force ruling over a nonwhite community, although it's a chicken and egg scenario.
Right, that's easy to empathize with. Not always sure how to pull it off... and it's more of an issue in some communities than others.
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Old 03-26-2018, 05:04 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Ah, yes, I forgot. America, the land where the invention of IDs has gone unnoticed.
You can't use ID they use it to put fluoride in your fillings to read your mind.
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  #57459  
Old 03-26-2018, 08:18 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
It's just hard to fathom. As a white person who has black in-laws, friends, co-workers, and supervisors, it's a little harder to see a critical need for drastic social action.

When I apply for jobs, every sequence ends by asking my race and gender. It's optional, but I'm pretty sure failing to answer eliminates me from the runnings. I also don't think that answering as White Male is necessarily doing me any favors (though to be honest, my guess based on experience is that in my field it's the females who are receiving more preferential treatment rather than black males).

Working for the City of Dallas, I saw even more black representation among my co-workers and superiors, including the police chief. Remember that Dallas was where the police were leisurely chatting alongside Black Lives Matters protesters during a march, when a third party ambushed and started gunning those white officers down. And that shooter probably had less motivation from "I'm black and angry at the situation" and more from "I'm Texan and love to shoot shit", if you know what I mean.

I guess my challenge for that article is the same challenge I have for Black Lives Matter: what do you want? What sort of new legislation is the right direction? My children go to integrated schools, I work in an integrated workplace, I live in an integrated neighborhood, I have in-laws and friends in mixed marriages/relationships that include blacks... what is it that needs to happen at this point, on a legal and/or social level?

Because the Civil Rights Movement had legitimate answers to those questions. If I'm as naive as those people polled in the '50s and '60s, then where in the country is this systemic apartheid hiding?
Good questions!

Far as I can understand, many of the issues are around policing. Basically, police can do a lot of messed up shit, and people don't care because "support the police" is a means of virtue/tribal signalling. Certainly, police do good things, but police also do bad things, particularly toward black people. The thing is that for many whites, anything bad that happens to those people (blacks, Latinos, Muslims) either isn't that bad at all, or is justifiable in some way.

As for what you can do... well, I suppose a good first start is to believe people when they say they have a shitty hand in society. Certainly, you have your own difficulties in life, but that does not negate the troubles of others; likewise, the troubles of others do not negate your own.

Other aspects are to try to support efforts for police reform (among other forms of reform), be it signing petitions, protesting with people, voting for the right people...

On a grander scale, I'd suggest advocating for reforms to the electoral process in order to eventually break the political duopoly. That way polarization will be more difficult, and it won't just be people going "police good! you bad!" "police bad! you bad!".

Sadly life doesn't really have any sexy solutions.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #57460  
Old 03-28-2018, 10:04 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Looks like the National African American Gun Association is growing.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/in...k-to-bear-arms
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  #57461  
Old 03-28-2018, 06:46 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Looks like the National African American Gun Association is growing.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/in...k-to-bear-arms
You can be honest, we both were a little weirded out by the size and intense media coverage of the "March for Our Lives" thing and the vaguely-defined movement(s) it represented.
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  #57462  
Old 03-28-2018, 08:03 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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You can be honest, we both were a little weirded out by the size and intense media coverage of the "March for Our Lives" thing and the vaguely-defined movement(s) it represented.
I thought it was pretty clear that it was the exploitation of children to serve as an unassailable face (it is impossible to say anything negative about their messages without being attacked for "attacking children who went through trauma") of the gun rights losses happening right now. Lots of bills are going through at the state level, and here are two nasty federal ones:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...bill/5087/text (note the number of cosponors on that one)
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...ouse-bill/5103 (thankfully much fewer cosponsors)

Hopefully both bills die an early death. The first one has a disturbing number of cosponsors, though, and would effectively ban most semi-auto guns in the country.
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  #57463  
Old 03-29-2018, 01:31 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Or maybe just children want to stop peeing their bed at night in fear of being gunned down at School.
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  #57464  
Old 03-29-2018, 07:27 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Or maybe just children want to stop peeing their bed at night in fear of being gunned down at School.
That implies children can think for themselves. Obviously we didn’t.
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  #57465  
Old 03-29-2018, 03:47 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Or maybe just children want to stop peeing their bed at night in fear of being gunned down at School.
Sounds like maybe their irrational fears should be assuaged instead of exploited.
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Old 03-29-2018, 07:27 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Sounds like maybe their irrational fears should be assuaged instead of exploited.
Is it really an irrational fear if it's something that happens more often than not in this country? My city alone has had to respond to two bomb threats and a Facebook threat just this year.

I think we, as a culture, need to look at what's going on and what we can do to counter it. The guy who opened fire at Parkland was affiliated with white nationalists. How can we prevent them from striking out again? Can we at all?

A lot of people have been putting the blame on mental illness, and they're not entirely wrong. People who are not sound of mind are more likely to commit a crime (and are even more likely to have a crime committed upon them, but I digress). So why are we continuing to cut public health care to those who need it? Our health system alone... sorry, getting off-topic.

I agree that we shouldn't let fear or other emotions make the deciding factor on this. So, what should we do?
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:02 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Sounds like maybe their irrational fears should be assuaged instead of exploited.
Assuaged how? It’d help if people actually talk to the kids, rather than at or about them first.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #57468  
Old 03-30-2018, 03:14 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Is it really an irrational fear if it's something that happens more often than not in this country? My city alone has had to respond to two bomb threats and a Facebook threat just this year.
These kids are far more likely to die on the bus ride to school than a school shooting. You have somewhere around a 99.9995716% chance of not being shot in a school shooting, which is something that still seems to be on the decline.

Quote:
I think we, as a culture, need to look at what's going on and what we can do to counter it. The guy who opened fire at Parkland was affiliated with white nationalists. How can we prevent them from striking out again? Can we at all?
The Parkland shooting was primarily a failure on the part of law enforcement. They fucked up pretty much every step of the way. We're chastising and suspending kids for drawing stick figures with guns, but this was apparently not a big deal to the authorities somehow.

Quote:
A lot of people have been putting the blame on mental illness, and they're not entirely wrong. People who are not sound of mind are more likely to commit a crime (and are even more likely to have a crime committed upon them, but I digress). So why are we continuing to cut public health care to those who need it? Our health system alone... sorry, getting off-topic.

I agree that we shouldn't let fear or other emotions make the deciding factor on this. So, what should we do?
I agree here. I think universal healthcare including mental healthcare could help a lot. If a kid starts showing signs like the Parkland shooter did, they should probably be referred to someone who can actually help them, and maybe if the FBI is going to have all these crazy surveillance powers, they should use them for things like this.
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:30 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I used to be hardcore anti-guns because I guess I was a EU fanboy and of course Europe is right and the US is wrong. Lately though I've come over to the side of the pro-gun crowd, maybe our own govt. wouldn't be so blatantly treasonous if they had to worry about a million guns coming for them.

Anyway, looking at heavily armed countries like Switzerland that somehow manage to be one of the most peaceful it is clear guns themselves are not the issue. The issue seems to be the somewhat chaotic way people live in the US, the various fears and tensions that exist in the society and wealth inequality. To solve this ofc you can lower wealth inequality, implement various programs and changes to address the tensions that exist and improve healthcare.

That is the right way to do it, fix the underlying issues that make the US such a violent society. You can ban guns as a sort of bandaid but since the problems remain then the violence will continue except now with smuggled guns. Aren't even now like a 1/3 of mass shooting done with illegal guns?
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Old 04-01-2018, 07:31 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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maybe our own govt. wouldn't be so blatantly treasonous if they had to worry about a million guns coming for them.
I have trouble believing that a civilian militia is going to be a meaningful deterrent to any kind of modern corruption.
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  #57471  
Old 04-01-2018, 09:26 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Anyway, looking at heavily armed countries like Switzerland that somehow manage to be one of the most peaceful it is clear guns themselves are not the issue. The issue seems to be the somewhat chaotic way people live in the US, the various fears and tensions that exist in the society and wealth inequality. To solve this ofc you can lower wealth inequality, implement various programs and changes to address the tensions that exist and improve healthcare.
I think swisses understand that guns are a dangerous tool and not a god given right.
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Old 04-01-2018, 02:39 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I have trouble believing that a civilian militia is going to be a meaningful deterrent to any kind of modern corruption.
Well for one my country is probably more corrupt and has less to go around so the misappropriation of government assets is more keenly felt. Also it is not just about money, I didn't use the word treason just for emphasis, they enact policies that hurt the country and its citizens in favor of foreign interests. Well I suppose that is still about money but it is a different kind of theft.

Now imagine you are a politician in a country where people strongly feel, for the reasons outlined above, that corruption is through the roof. Wouldn't you be at least a little bit less willing to line your own pockets if you were afraid you and your family might end up like a certain strongman from across the border?
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  #57473  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:47 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Looks like the Department of Fatherland Security is going to start tracking journalists and other "media influencers" very closely.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homelan...a-influencers/
https://chicago.suntimes.com/politic...a-influencers/
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:59 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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I have trouble believing that a civilian militia is going to be a meaningful deterrent to any kind of modern corruption.
Me too.

Doubly so when most American militias are right-leaning, and thus they gladly ignore anything and everything that the right does that doesn't involve taking guns away.

They only freak out when a left-leaning president is elected, and thus would gladly give up every single other right that doesn't involve guns.

Beyond that, the moment the militias actually do something is the moment the government is going to clamp down even harder.

Militias in the US will never win versus the government, unless they can somehow split the military forces enough.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia; 04-07-2018 at 04:02 PM..
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  #57475  
Old 04-07-2018, 05:42 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Beyond that, the moment the militias actually do something is the moment the government is going to clamp down even harder.

Militias in the US will never win versus the government, unless they can somehow split the military forces enough.
I take it you're not very familiar with the American Revolution.
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